Abraham spalding |
I don't know about most important, paladins needed alot of love too, but I'm glad others are looking at the bard and wanting to make him better.
I was really wishing we could get at least a comment from Jason B on one of the bard threads... he's been pretty quiet about them over all and that worries me.
Zark |
I don't know about most important, paladins needed alot of love too, but I'm glad others are looking at the bard and wanting to make him better.
I was really wishing we could get at least a comment from Jason B on one of the bard threads... he's been pretty quiet about them over all and that worries me.
I hope so to, but Jason and Paizo...I really don't know. The Paladin need Love, but the Paladin theard has gone uggly and bizzaro.
Abraham keep on sharing, you're great.:-)
Abraham spalding |
Bayh not great just mildy good (just ask my wife!). Anyways Jason said in another thread he is watching these things so I'm not worried anymore. I really don't think he'll leave bards to sit in the backseat with all the good suggestion that have come about because of these discussions.
I'm still at the point of adding the following:
"Bardic Colleges" as suggested in a rough from by me, and shown in a refined system by 'findel (that looked much better than anything I threw out).
"Bardic Talents" including a chance to get a few other classes spells, trapfinding, and maybe a few nifty other things that aren't normally available to everyone.
Improved Inspiration music -- Inspire courage probably doesn't need anything... maybe making the other inspire stuff be add ons for inspire courage would be a good idea. Inspire competence is still a noisy aid other and really needs improved.
Advanced spell progression -- simply one or two levels eariler for spell levels 4, 5, 6... I really don't see why they should be almost 4 levels or more behind everyone else.
Zurai |
I think if they could simply Charm better, and had the (10 + half lvl + CHAmod) equation in all of the performances change to (Perform roll + half lvl) things would start felling better. That's a Perform check plus half level, and that factors in CHAmod.
Basing their DCs off a skill check is horribly broken. There's a reason that 10+half level+stat is the standard formula: that's what the saving throw values in the game are designed around. Changing that to a skill check (which averages out to 10.5+level+stat+3+(3 or 6) (if Skill Focus is used... and why wouldn't you? Compare it to Spell Focus: you get 6 times the benefit for the same cost!)). In effect, you're more than doubling a standard DC once you get past the first couple levels. And that's BEFORE you add the "half-your-level" part! Even a straight skill check is broken, the last thing it needs is a bonus on top!
Anyway, I don't feel that the bard is a broken class at the moment, as I think I've stated more than a few times in these forums :) That said, I certainly am not opposed to improving it, and I have to admit that I was relatively disappointed that the bardic performances didn't get as extensive a reworking as the barbarian rage system. I was really looking forward to being able to pick and choose from a list of performances. Don't get me wrong, the new performances are good, but variety is the spice of life (and the bane of editors)!
Laurefindel |
Another thought, admittedly with a lesser impact on the game...
Inspire courage/competence/greatness/heroics/you-name-it assumes that you are singing and playing an encouraging tune or something (at least, that's how the fluff makes it sound like). While this is mostly fluff, what IS the bard signing during that time?
The ability requires a standard action to trigger, and there are arguments in favour of making it a swift action. That leaves the bard, at the most, 6 seconds to get his instrument ready and play a tune with quasi-magical effects. That's barely enough time to put three chords together, let alone a recognizable tune.
While I do not suggest that the ability should take even more time to use, I question its relevance as something being musical in nature.
any thoughts?
'findel
Laurefindel |
Basing their DCs off a skill check is horribly broken. There's a reason that 10+half level+stat is the standard formula: that's what the saving throw values in the game are designed around. Changing that to a skill check (which averages out to 10.5+level+stat+3+(3 or 6) (if Skill Focus is used... and why wouldn't you? Compare it to Spell Focus: you get 6 times the benefit for the same cost!)). In effect, you're more than doubling a standard DC once you get past the first couple levels.
How about 10 + perform ranks + Cha modifier?
Excuse my insistence to bring perform back in, but since bardic music is so intimately based on the perform check to the point of being almost a "skill tax" for the bard, I think it should also have an impact on the ability itself beyond "unlocking" your own class features...
'findel
cliff |
cliff wrote:I think if they could simply Charm better, and had the (10 + half lvl + CHAmod) equation in all of the performances change to (Perform roll + half lvl) things would start felling better. That's a Perform check plus half level, and that factors in CHAmod.Basing their DCs off a skill check is horribly broken. There's a reason that 10+half level+stat is the standard formula: that's what the saving throw values in the game are designed around. Changing that to a skill check (which averages out to 10.5+level+stat+3+(3 or 6) (if Skill Focus is used... and why wouldn't you? Compare it to Spell Focus: you get 6 times the benefit for the same cost!)). In effect, you're more than doubling a standard DC once you get past the first couple levels. And that's BEFORE you add the "half-your-level" part! Even a straight skill check is broken, the last thing it needs is a bonus on top!
I neither think that would make things broken, nor do I ahve a problem with how high the DCs could get should a player start choosing "all the right feats." That sort of tweaking is what breaks this game, not rules re-writes like I'm suggesting. Sure, a player could choose Skill Focus multiple times to effect each differnt Performance ty[e he wants to have, but that's abig waste of Feat slots, if you ask me.
Lso, my (Perform roll + half lvl) would start at (ave10.5 + CHAmod + ranks + 1/2lvl) +3 forthe class skill bonus that Bards get. At first level, a CHA +4 Bard could have that check being made at (10.5 + 4 + 1 + 0)+ 3 = 18.5 for a DC. the current system doesn't allow for a skill roll to be made, but a (10 + ranks + CHAmod) is sort of better. At least at 1st lvl it increases Performance checks by 0.5 points, but it increases Performance checks at Bard 12th lvl to +200%. Noramally at that lvl Bards would have +6 based on 1/2 level, but basing it on skill ranks is equal to curent Bard level...and if he's multiclassed, it can be even higher because max rank is going to be equal to Hit Dice if maxed out.
I reiterate that I prefer losing Perform as a skill altogether and making it a Class Ability for Bards instead. I discuss all the benefits of this elsewhere.
Treantmonklvl20 |
First of all - a slight power bump for Bards I think isn't going to hurt. They aren't "top tier" though I don't think they are too weak.
The auto-perform skill idea I think is a no-brainer. Bards are performers - every single one is going to max out some kind of perform - to not would be ludicrous - so why is it an "option", it is a false option - the Bard must take it, so giving it to them automatically makes sense. I don't think the possibility of the Bard having "too many skills" is much to worry about.
That said, I think the Bard doesn't necessarily need a power up. Compare him to the poor helpless Monk and it's not even a far fight. Bard's have a great deal going for them.
The biggest mistake I see with Bard builds is the effort to make them into a crappy Sorcerer by maxing out CHA and focusing on spellcasting. Bard's can cast spells - but they will just never be good enough to replace a full caster. They get too few spells and at too low levels to make this their primary purpose.
The Bard works much better as a hybrid. Kind of a Duskblade who focuses more on buffing. The toughest Bard builds usually are melee or archery in nature - and focus largely on Swift/Immediate action spells/songs to beef up themselves and their allies. It is a combination that works very nicely - and only requires a CHA of 16 to work to full potential.
I think if the Bard is tried out this way - there will be less concern on beefing it up to it's counterparts.
Black Tom |
The biggest mistake I see with Bard builds is the effort to make them into a crappy Sorcerer by maxing out CHA and focusing on spellcasting. Bard's can cast spells - but they will just never be good enough to replace a full caster. They get too few spells and at too low levels to make this their primary purpose.
The Bard works much better as a hybrid. Kind of a Duskblade who focuses more on buffing. The toughest Bard builds usually are melee or archery in nature - and focus largely on Swift/Immediate action spells/songs to beef up themselves and their allies. It is a combination that works very nicely - and only requires a CHA of 16 to work to full potential.
I think if the Bard is tried out this way - there will be less concern on beefing it up to it's counterparts.
Would you care to elaborate on that? I for one never have gotten the hang of the bard, but what you're saying makes a lot of sense and accords with the reports I've heard about bards that were playable. But I'd like to see an example build.
Treantmonklvl20 |
Would you care to elaborate on that? I for one never have gotten the hang of the bard, but what you're saying makes a lot of sense and accords with the reports I've heard about bards that were playable. But I'd like to see an example build.
Sure. OK - let's assume a 10th level campaign - using Pathfinder Beta and backwards compatability with 3.5 material (so 3.5 stuff not specifically replaced by Pathfinder stuff is still OK).
This is just a quick build - nothing pre-prepared, so it may not be perfectly optimized - but should get the idea across. The choices I've made here are very flexible - but I'm just presenting one example...
I'm assuming a 20 point buy for attributes (using Pathfinder point buy system) - the attribute priorities remain similar regardless of points.
MELEE BARD:
Race: Human(Bard preferred bonus, +2 to STR)
Starting/ending (after 2 stat increases) stats (before magic items)
STR: 16/18 (5 pts)
Dex: 14 (5 pts)
Con: 14 (5 pts)
Int: 13 (3 pts)
Wis: 7 (-4 pts)
Cha: 14 (5 pts)
By level 10 I would thing a few +2 stat items is perfectly reasonable - CHA and STR for sure.
Spells Known list:
1: Stay the Hand (PHB II), Swift Invisibility (SpC), Inspirational Boost (SpC), Insidious Rhythm (SpC), Swift Expedtious Retreat (SpC)
2: Bladeweave (SPC), Swift Fly (SPC), Grace (SPC), Opportune Dodge (CScoundrel), Stretch Weapon (PHBII)
3:Halt (PHB II), Hesitate (PHB II), Haste (Beta), Displacement (Beta)
4: Mirror Image (Greater) (PHB II), War Cry (C Adv)
Feats: Battle Caster, Medium armor proficiency, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Lingering Song
How it works:
Again, this is a 10 minute build - some tweaking would do it good - however - this is how it works:
Out of Combat: This Bard will have all the out of combat ability you would expect from a Bard. As a Human with a +1 Int bonus - that's 8 skills per level - plus Bardic Knowledge. Furthermore - you have full use of Bardic Performance abilities for lots of enchantment, buffing, etc.
Skills: Naturally Perform must be maxed. Use magic device is fantastic. I like at least one level of every knowledge (for maximum Bardic Knowledge use), otherwise - have fun. Stealth, Perception, Diplomacy etc - all good choices.
In Combat: This Bard is able to front line very well;
HP: With the D8, +1 Favored Class Bonus and +2 Con bonus, the Bard will have HP comparable to a Cleric or Druid of equal level. Perfectly adequite for front line work. Putting the +1 favored class bonus into skills is perfectly fine as well - your HP will still be decent.
AC: With the ability to wear medium armor (Mithral full plate?) and a decent Dex score - his AC won't be stellar, but should be decent.
Combat Manouvers: With Whip proficiency, Improved Trip, and a high strength score - this will be a good tripper, contolling the battlefield for the other front liners.
Melee: If tripping isn't appropriate - this Bard can draw his sword instead and hack effectively. With a STR score of 20 (with a str +2 item) at 10th level (and 16 right at level 1), and medium BAB - you can expect a +3 to hit/damage right at level 1.
Buffing: Naturally - the Bard will still be inspiring courage in battle - a nice bonus for everyone (including himself). With lingering song - he can inspire courage on round 1, then enter melee on round 2.
Spellcasting: There are only 2 spells on this Bard's list that require a standard action to cast (Haste and Displacement - for those epic battles). The rest all require a swift or immediate action. Let's look at an example of how this would work.
Round 1: Bard Inspires courage
Round 2: Bard Hacks the enemy - casts swift invisibility as a swift action and moves. Monster hacks futuliy at empty square.
Round 3: Bard is revealed - hacks enemy, casts swift invisibility and moves. Monster howls in frusturation. Monster is forced to ready an action.
Round 4: Bard backs up, casts stretch weapon and attacks from range. Monster loses readied action as Bard is out of reach. Monster roars in anger.
Round 5: Bard casts swift fly, moves up to ledge, and draws whip...
You get the idea.
The thing about the Bard is that spellcasting just is not strong enough to be your main option. Compared to a Sorcerer (or even worse, a Beguiler), the Bard spellcasting simply does not stack up.
However, the Bard does get better HP, some armor options, and a medium BAB. If their spellcasting is used to complement this - then the Bard makes a pretty decent melee class. In addition - they make all the other meleers better.
If you aren't a whip fan, I would recommend dropping the trip feat tree and pick up some extra knowledges and Knowledge devotion (CC). I think the new Bardic Knowledge would work very nicely for some extra damage in combat.
The real key of any melee Bard or archer Bard build is your spells. You need to focus on spells that are quick to cast (though later on a rod of quicken spell can help with standard action spells) and improve your ability in combat. I like to focus on manouverability and versatility. Then you fill a niche that a fighter can't. (and you do it better than the Monk)
With a 16 CHA, you have full access to all your spells, and that's all you need (I recommend 14 at level 1 + Magic items). Then your attribute focus is on your Physical Stats. You will end up with stats just as well suited for combat as a Ranger for example - probably superior to a Paladin (since you can dump wisdom).
The feats really don't matter - take whatever you like for combat. I like the Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack tree, though Weapon Focus is just fine if you prefer. The important thing is to remember you are not a spellcaster, you are a melee/archery character - and your feats should reflect that.
Treantmonklvl20 |
Thanks for taking the trouble. But I can't help noticing that almost none of the spells you've chosen is core. That seems to point to a weakness in the spell lists in the RAW at least.
I did pick primarily Swift/Immediate action spells - which naturally are not core (since Swift/Immediate actions themselves are not core).
Naturally - with any character that uses spells - the fewer sourcebooks available - the less the power.
If it was Core-only - You can't escape standard action casting - I would focus more on buffing/no save spells so again - the 16 CHA works. Top priority to Lesser Quicken Rod!
The Spell list for such a Bard would look more like:
1: Silent Image, Expeditious retreat, Grease, Summon Monster I, Cure Light Wounds
2: Alter Self, Blur, Heroism, Invisibility, Mirror Image
3: Haste, Displacement, Phantom Steed, Blink
4: Invisibility (greater), Dimension door
Abraham spalding |
Well, I don't (and haven't) had a problem with the actual spells on the bard's list, I just wish they came at more relevant level at the higher end (1st~3rd level spells are fine in my book as they are).
Just for the sake of noting it, heroism doesn't stack with Inspire courage: But it is still useful if people are outside of 30 ft of the bard (i.e. the party likes to spread out).
The Bardic musics are one of my major frustrations, They are generally behind the power curve of similar spells by a huge amount (fascinate can't be used in battle, suggestion requires fascinate then gives another save throw, Soothing performance comes 3 levels after Mass cure light wounds and takes a minute to "cast").
I would like, as has been mentioned by many people to see the non-music stuff for the bard to be a bit more useful, and offer more of the variety available from previous editions.
Finally I would really like to see the different performances having different effects. I really like the way Jason and Co. have added new performance types and linked them to different performance skills, I just wish they had been more expansive and (truthfully) a tad more useful.
Personally I don't mind using stuff that is not "core" however many people and DM's in my area do, and for that reason it is often not available. I would like the bard to be a bit more "stand up" on its own from the core settings.
I would point out that a few feats in Pathfinder work rather well for a "gish" type bard build... Arcane Strike for example can help with damage potential in a core game, and gives you something to use your swift actions on.
Zark |
cool stuff
A decent melee class? Well I say perhaps if you play all others classes by the 3.5 rules.
But We're not. With the new CMB rules the Bard don't stand a chanse when trying to trip full BAB classes or classes built on Strength.And really, the bard is not really a good tank.
Bard vs Fighter. Fighter wins.(feats, Full plate, armor and weapon training, d10HD, 4/4 bab)
Bard vs Cleric - Cleric wins. (Full plate, better and more spells, No spell failure).
Bard vs Barbarian - Barbarian. (D12 HD, 4/4 bab, uncanny dodge, Rage, rage powers)
Bard VS Paladin - Paladin wins. (Full plate, d10 HD, 4/4 bab, good Saves, Spells, No spell failure, smite, Auras, lay on hands, etc.)
Bard VS Druid - Druid Wins (more spells, Wild Shape, No spell failure)
Bard VS Monk. I would say Monk Wins but I'm not sure.
Bard VS Rogue - Rogue wins. (Sneak attack, Evasion, uncanny dodge, Rogue talents/Advanced talents, more skills. And picking One level fighter and the rogue can use a full plate. Well no evasion but so what?)
And why play the Bard as a tank?
Suggestion, Discordant Performance, Frightening Tune, Paralyzing Show, Deadly Performance all of these are based on "DC 10 + 1/2 bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier".
Spells are based on charisma. Countersong and Distraction also rely on charisma.
Basing the bard on str and not on char proves the bard does not work. The Bard can't really get by on spells and Bardic Performance.
Also your buildt are not core. Not the spells and not the feats (Battle Caster and Lingering Song).
But thanx for some cool ideas. Im gonna try play a bard on our next campaign so thanx.
Laurefindel |
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:cool stuffA decent melee class? Well I say perhaps if you play all others classes by the 3.5 rules.
But We're not. With the new CMB rules the Bard don't stand a chanse when trying to trip full BAB classes or classes built on Strength.
And really, the bard is not really a good tank.
Bard vs Fighter. Fighter wins.(feats, Full plate, armor and weapon training, d10HD, 4/4 bab)
Bard vs Cleric - Cleric wins. (Full plate, better and more spells, No spell failure).
Bard vs Barbarian - Barbarian. (D12 HD, 4/4 bab, uncanny dodge, Rage, rage powers)
Bard VS Paladin - Paladin wins. (Full plate, d10 HD, 4/4 bab, good Saves, Spells, No spell failure, smite, Auras, lay on hands, etc.)
Bard VS Druid - Druid Wins (more spells, Wild Shape, No spell failure)
Bard VS Monk. I would say Monk Wins but I'm not sure.
Bard VS Rogue - Rogue wins. (Sneak attack, Evasion, uncanny dodge, Rogue talents/Advanced talents, more skills. And picking One level fighter and the rogue can use a full plate. Well no evasion but so what?)
And why play the Bard as a tank?
Suggestion, Discordant Performance, Frightening Tune, Paralyzing Show, Deadly Performance all of these are based on "DC 10 + 1/2 bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier".
Spells are based on charisma. Countersong and Distraction also rely on charisma.
Basing the bard on str and not on char proves the bard does not work. The Bard can't really get by on spells and Bardic Performance.
Also your buildt are not core. Not the spells and not the feats (Battle Caster and Lingering Song).But thanx for some cool ideas. Im gonna try play a bard on our next campaign so thanx.
I don't think the bard should "win" against any single class, but i'd like to see a 10th level bard "win" against a 5th level sorcerer/5th level fighter, or a 5th level wizard/5th level rogue on the bard's own grounds.
However, I must admit that I have some difficulties to pinpoint the bard's "own grounds"...
'findel
cliff |
Just for the sake of noting it, heroism doesn't stack with Inspire courage: But it is still useful if people are outside of 30 ft of the bard (i.e. the party likes to spread out).
The Bardic musics are one of my major frustrations, They are generally behind the power curve of similar spells by a huge amount (fascinate can't be used in battle, suggestion requires fascinate then gives another save throw, Soothing performance comes 3 levels after Mass cure light wounds and takes a minute to "cast").
I would like, as has been mentioned by many people to see the non-music stuff for the bard to be a bit more useful, and offer more of the variety available from previous editions.
Well, not gonna bash people ovr the head with my idea, but do you think going back to the start is the way to go? By that I mean enhance the Bard's Charm abilities, switch him to a Druid spell list, and do something major to the music list like...erm...make it music (and not a bazillion types of performance types) that stays in the area of conferring condition damage (nausea, staggered, blind, etc.) with a few neat "harmonic build-up" sort of things tossed in (shatter, knock, disenchant, etc.).
I think the idea of the Bard as a generalist or a jack of all trades, that's something that people are trying to translate from the original write up anyway.
What if (and this is really outside the box) Bards went to being a Prestige class?
Mark Moreland Director of Brand Strategy |
Well, not gonna bash people ovr the head with my idea, but do you think going back to the start is the way to go? By that I mean enhance the Bard's Charm abilities, switch him to a Druid spell list, and do something major to the music list like...erm...make it music (and not a bazillion types of performance types) that stays in the area of conferring condition damage (nausea, staggered, blind, etc.) with a few neat "harmonic build-up" sort of things tossed in (shatter, knock, disenchant, etc.).
I think the idea of the Bard as a generalist or a jack of all trades, that's something that people are trying to translate from the original write up anyway.
What if (and this is really outside the box) Bards went to being a Prestige class?
All of this completely negates any effort to be backwards compatible. Not gonna happen.
Abraham spalding |
'findel I was in D&D. As even after the psionics in the advanced PHB.
Beyond that Jason has already stated he wants to keep the "core" classes core. So no 4th ed not having the basics covered stuff going on here.
Personally I think we have precident for everything has been mentioned for adding to the bard.
1. Paladin's, Ranger's, Druid's, Cleric's and even Bard's spell progressions have already been tweaked, another tweak won't be huge.
2. Rogue talents where added in, so adding in some Bard talents isn't a big deal.
3. Bardic Colleges would just be the bard's means of specializing in his ability. Just like specialization is for wizards and domains are for clerics.
cliff |
cliff wrote:All of this completely negates any effort to be backwards compatible. Not gonna happen.Well, not gonna bash people ovr the head with my idea, but do you think going back to the start is the way to go? By that I mean enhance the Bard's Charm abilities, switch him to a Druid spell list, and do something major to the music list like...erm...make it music (and not a bazillion types of performance types) that stays in the area of conferring condition damage (nausea, staggered, blind, etc.) with a few neat "harmonic build-up" sort of things tossed in (shatter, knock, disenchant, etc.).
I think the idea of the Bard as a generalist or a jack of all trades, that's something that people are trying to translate from the original write up anyway.
What if (and this is really outside the box) Bards went to being a Prestige class?
No, it all works. Backwards compatibility only means that one has to make few changes to make it work, or it's easy enough to port an old character from 3.5 into PF.
Let me back up.
I'm suggesting Perform become the main Bard class ability. They keep Bardic Knowledge as in the PF rewrite (although the % check worked fine, but whatever). The main Bard ability from incept date has been Charm, however, and I think that is handled fairly well with Fascinate/Suggestion. The problem comes from the class trying to be too many things, and getting away from the original concept. Performance was intended to be musical in nature, and it should get back to just that. Besides, dancing around in a dungeon crawl is just something the party Dwarf won't tolerate for long (lol). All Bard Performance class powers should derive from auditory effects or be arcane hyperbole of what sound can do at it's extreme. Can sound stun people, make people literally nauseous, effectively blind people? You bet. Using sound to wobble the tumblers of a lock to eventually unlock it? Why not. It's just noisier and takes longer than the Rogue's picks might, but maybe it never fails. None of these don't translate to backward compatibility, but they make the Bard class totally different in the list of powers they have. In other words, compatibility comes down to the mechanics employed, and I'm not suggesting changing those.
Bards also used druid spells in 1st edition. Maybe that could come back.
All I know is Bards being "fighting rogues" of some mish-mash of stuff isn't interesting, and it's not a good representation of what the Bard class was intended to be originally (talking AD&D now). The class has been one that people have tried to make work since 3.0 first came out and the representation above is as good an example as I've seen.
One thing I must state is this: I've always loved Bards, since the AD&D PHB way back when, multi-classing three times and all. I want it cool again. I intend to be involved in making Bards cool again, and PF is the opportunity. But, if we're going to talk "keep the core classes" on one hand, and then use info other than core Feats to make the class "optimized" or argue "compatibility", then we'll never get anywhere.
I suggest that further discussion of what to do with the class be limited to Core rules as they appear in the Beta. Splats should and rules in them be left out except as a check and balance to ensure that the Core Bard is functional and doesn't get over powered when those additions are brought into play.
Zark |
I picked this from the theard by Levelupper ( all cred to Levelupper). Levelupper's stuff should be added to this thread because what’s on his/her thread is just great. I’ve allready added a link to Levelupper's thread, but here it is anyway. Good work Levelupper.
There have been suggestions in other threads that Bards should get options depending on the kinds of performers they are i.e., Bards who are trained a certain way would get certain abilities.
I think that the rogue talent mechanic would be the best way to articulate this.
BARD TALENTS:
pied piper gain an animal companion as a ranger of the same level
dancer gain evasion on a perform(dance) check
stage combat use a perform(acting) to imitate a combat feat of one of the members of your party
story teller gain one bonus divination spell of a level you can cast from any spell list.
hymnist gain the ability to channel energy 1/per day for a number of points equal to your perform check.
scoundrel gain find traps as a bonus 1st-level spell
musician gain one bonus evocation(sonic) spell of a level you can cast from any list.
magician gain one bonus illusion spell of a level you can cast from any list.
vocalist gain one bonus echantment spell of a level you can cast from any list.
pantomime with a successful non-vocal perform check, you can cast a spell with the silent spell feat.
conductor with a successful perform(any instrument) check, you can allow one or more allies to do 1d6 sonic damage on your next melee or ranged attack.
fool gain use a perform(comedy) check to gain a luck bonus of half you level to your next saving throw.
motivator use a perform(oratory) check to give a competence bonus of half you level to an ally's skill check.
virtuoso gain one bonus bardic performance feat
know-it-all gain one extra use of the loremaster ability per day Obviously talents requiring a perform check will need a fairly high DC.
While rogues get ten talents over all, Bards might be limited to 5. I'm thinking one every four levels. This way, Bards have the opportunity to truly be the jack of all trades. It will also allow for tonnes of customization with no loss of flavour. It also keeps the perform skill from being pointless.
[...] I wanted to allow for a variety of backgrounds. A Bard who's raised in a church doing devotional music would have different abilities than a bard who grew up in a rural area close to a druidic tradition or a bard who's part of a thieves' guild. Also, I wanted a way for Bards to increase their spells known slightly or gain access to other classes' abilities through the perform skill. This could be expanded to skill and feat selection as well as enhance roleplaying/backstory creation.
Black Tom pointed out that “the bard should get a talent at level 1”, and I agree.
I think more talents could /should be added and some of them could /should be tweeked.
I would give the Bard Trapfinding (yes just give them it), Evasion and Armor Proficiency: longbows (including composite longbows) and more skills points. Probably 8 / level.
/Zark AKA TomJohn
Zark |
[...]
Personally I don't mind using stuff that is not "core" however many people and DM's in my area do, and for that reason it is often not available. I would like the bard to be a bit more "stand up" on its own from the core settings.
I'm not saying non core stuff is bad, I'm just saying if you've gotta go non core to make a class work, ...then it doesn't work.
The Bardic Colleges are intressiting and I agree on most of the stuff you say. Yes "The Bardic musics are one of my major frustrations".
Perhaps give them some sort of Ability boost (like the Dragon Disciple) at higher levels.
Treantmonklvl20 do have a point. Playing a charisma Bard doesn't work and that's sad.
In the end I'll probably end up multi classing.
Bard with one or two levels rogue - trapfinding, nice class skills Evasion
Bard with one level fighter. - Fort save, Weapon and Armor Proficiency and a feat.
Bard with one level Barbarian - Fort save, Weapon and Armor Proficiency, nice skills,Fast Movement and d12 HD (and Rage).
Bard with one level ranger Weapon Proficiency, nice skills, Fort and reflex save, Favored Enemy (undead) nice spells (wands like longstrider, The probelm with UMD is it might fail).
Or one level bard and one level druid, cleric or Sorcerer (or wizard).
Pure Bard? I won't play one.
By the way. Merry merry christmas all of you.
/Zark aka TomJohn
Zark |
[...] The biggest mistake I see with Bard builds is the effort to make them into a crappy Sorcerer by maxing out CHA and focusing on spellcasting. Bard's can cast spells - but they will just never be good enough to replace a full caster. They get too few spells and at too low levels to make this their primary purpose.
The Bard works much better as a hybrid. Kind of a Duskblade who focuses more on buffing.[...]
I think all you've said so far has been very interesting, so thanx. But what's been said proves the Bard and the two 'bard races' don't work (not counting humans and half-elves).
If you're gonna play the Bard using a race who have Bard as their Favored Class you're stuck with the two small races, Hafling and Gnome
A) they got +2 to char, but building a charisma Bard don't really work
B) they got -2 on strength. Not good when you focus on a battle Bard.
C) They got 20 ft move. Not good if you wanna be mobile.
D) They can only use small weapons. Not good if you wanna be a tank.
When you want to play a 'Bard race' it should work, yes?
Hafling are better of playing rogues (or Sorcerer )and Gnomes are better of playing Sorcerer, Clerics or even Paladins.
I want to be able to play a Hafling Bard or a Gnome Bard, but I can't because ...to put it blunt: they would suck.
/Zark
Zurai |
Just for the sake of noting it, heroism doesn't stack with Inspire courage: But it is still useful if people are outside of 30 ft of the bard (i.e. the party likes to spread out).
There's no range restriction on inspire courage, outside of "must be able to perceive the bard". That's the third or fourth time I've had to correct you on bard abilities ... and every time your statement has been far weaker than the actual class. One is forced to wonder if perhaps your opinion that the bard is too weak stems from you not knowing the actual specifics of any of the bard's abilities.
Mattastrophic |
One is forced to wonder if perhaps your opinion that the bard is too weak stems from you not knowing the actual specifics of any of the bard's abilities.
Oh, he's right on it being weak, I can back him up on that.
I've tricked out the Bard in every way I can think of, and it's still a class for advanced players who want to challenge themselves by playing a weak character.
-Matt, gotta get caught up on the Bard threads!
Zark |
stuff
And this is the second time you use a condescending / hostile tone.
It's good you correct him (or anyone else) but what was Abrahams point?I guess he/she ment that heroism can be usfull even if it does not stack with Inspire courage. That would be when an ally can't (for some reason) benefit from Inspire courage (e.g. when a party spreads out).
And yes, Abraham is not the only one who think "that the bard is too weak".
Mattastrophic |
What's really important here, and as I brought up in "Five Relevant Bard Issues," is that since Heroism does not stack with Inspire Courage, a Bard is a lot less necessary, since an arcanist can just spend some slots on buffing the party with Heroism (which, by the way, adds to all saves and skill checks), eclipsing the Bard's usefulness.
-Matt
Treantmonklvl20 |
<snip>
I want to be able to play a Hafling Bard or a Gnome Bard, but I can't because ...to put it blunt: they would suck.
/Zark
There of course are some advantages to being small size - but overall I agree that the Halfling/Gnome are not your best races for a melee based Bard (which is too bad). If you go with Archery however - a halfling might be a very nice choice...(I mentioned archery as an option in my post even though the example I gave was melee based)
However - I think the best choice for bard overall is definitely the Human - which works just fine since they have that flexible favored class.
Flavor wise, I think Half-Elf is good too - though speaking about sucking - why wasn't something done for the poor half-elf?
The other PHB races just don't fit the flavor of the Bard (at least stereotypically - naturally, a player shouldn't feel pigeonholed by stereotyping)
cliff |
What's really important here, and as I brought up in "Five Relevant Bard Issues," is that since Heroism does not stack with Inspire Courage, a Bard is a lot less necessary, since an arcanist can just spend some slots on buffing the party with Heroism (which, by the way, adds to all saves and skill checks), eclipsing the Bard's usefulness.
-Matt
...and why I've been using your initia thread as a jump-off point. Revising the bard class is a strong goal of mine right now, because we have the opportunity right now! I think we really need to look at the points raise by Matt and gear up, toss out the condescending tones, and poslish this class to shiny. It could be a great, unique class the play in this game, but right now, it's weak.
The 30' issue is down to range of perception. Target's should be able to effectively percieve the Bard doing his thing. I'll look into that, as should we all. Bards abilities being based on perceptive range is something that makes sense and is unlike any other class.
I think Bard moreal buffing is easily fixed to stack with other moral buffs by calling it an "Inspiration Bonus" and being done with it. That's a totally easy solution, and it works the way we want it to.
Another relevant Bard issue, Matt, is that Perform, as it is in the RAW, is available at the same functional ability for Bards, Rogues and Monks equally. A monk being able to have Perform as a class skill is strange enough, but being able to ear money same as a Bard is dumb. This needs to be added to relevant problems with the class. Why don't you re-post those here?
Zark |
What's really important here, and as I brought up in "Five Relevant
Bard Issues," is that since Heroism does not stack with Inspire Courage, a Bard is a lot less necessary, since an arcanist can just spend some slots on buffing the party with Heroism (which, by the way, adds to all saves and skill checks), eclipsing the Bard's usefulness.
-Matt
right you are.
And do a stereotypical party with a fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric deal fAR more damage with a bard than with any other spell casting class? Say add one more cleric or add a Sorcerer to the party. Answer: No.
- Inspire Courage doesn't stack with heroism or Bless. And is IC (Inspire Courage) at level 1 to 4 that much better than bless?
Inspire Courage (Su): [...] An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls.
So it adds +1 to weapon damage rolls and bless doesn't. Well it won't help the wizard that much and the cleric only get the damage benefit if his using weapons. Otherwise is not that much better than bless.
At level 5 IC is +2. Well at level 5 a cleric has prayer and the wizard has fireball. I'd say prayer beats IC (+2) by far.
IC only affects Weapon damage, so Cleric and Wizard won't really get a useful boost. And since all spell casting classes got good will saves the save bonus is not a big deal (at higher levels) and...heroism and prayer are both better.
At lvl 11 Inspire Courage gives the part a +3 boost. At level 11 a wizard gets to use spells
from spell lvl 6. that is stuff like: Chain Lightning, Heroism, Greater, Disintegrate, Cat’s Grace, mass and Bear’s Endurance, Mass tec etc. At lvl 12 the Sorcerer gets access to the same spell list.
A cleric at level 11: Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass and Inf lict Moderate Wounds, Mass and Harm, Heal, Heroes’ Feast, Blade Barrier etc.
Is the bard really that great? No.
Well the bard got other stuff. Yes, So has the cleric..and wizard and druid and Sorcerer.
Cleric: Channel energy and Domain power. Usefull? Well yes. e.g. Freedom’s Call. And I can go on.
To be honest. I don't want to boost the bards spell list. Some minor fixes would be nice (make See Invisibility a lvl 2 spell). But give the Bard:
- 8 skills / lvl
- better songs
- Bard talents (at level 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19)
- proficiency: longbows (including composite longbows)
- spell like abilites
- Spell Focus enchantment as a bonus feat (or as a talent)
also Bardic Colleges might be cool.
And fix this:
- Deadly Performance, it's to good.
-I nspire Courage, make it: +2 / +4 / +6 / +8. Why? Make the mosters wanna take the bard out. Right now who wants to nuke tha bard? (but let it still be a moral bonus)
- fix Distraction (how can the bard use it if he/she fail the save?)
- make Distraction usefull. One suggestioN: let it help against gaze attacks i some way.
- make starting a songs a swift
- And the effect should only last for as long as the ally percieves the bard‘s performance and for 1 round thereafter. Why nerf the duration? Well I want the songs to be great and this is a way to get it balanced scince it can't be dispeled. Also it more logical. If the bard stop singing (e.g. if he is unconscious or dead) then the morality goes down.
/ Zark
Zark |
There of course are some advantages to being small size - but overall I agree that the Halfling/Gnome are not your best races for a melee based Bard (which is too bad). If you go with Archery however - a halfling might be a very nice choice...(I mentioned archery as an option in my post even though the example I gave was melee based)
However - I think the best choice for bard overall is definitely the Human - which works just fine since they have that flexible favored class.
Flavor wise, I think Half-Elf is good too - though speaking about sucking - why wasn't something done for the poor half-elf?
The other PHB races just don't fit the flavor of the Bard (at least stereotypically - naturally, a player shouldn't feel pigeonholed by stereotyping)
Bard as an archer? I don't know. Fighter archer got:
- Full BAB
- access to improved Precise Shot at lvl 11 (bards at lvl 15)
- higher str and dex score (since they can dump char)
- Weapon training and lot's of feats, two of them Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization
- Proficiency composite longbows whitch mean they can benefit from their str.
Rangers got more or less the same stuff, not Weapon training and Weapon Specialization but they have Favored Enemy and their Combat style feat (and yes the archer feat selection for rangers suuuuck)
If a bard wants to be an archer he/she would want at least 5 or 6 archer feast (Point blank shot, Precise Shot, Rappid shot, Deadly aim, improved Precise Shot and Martial proficiency composite longbows) and without any bonus feats it will take forever (unless you're human).
And small races as archers? I'd have do say no. And gnome? No no no.
A) Small race = small weapons = not much damage
B) -2 Strength = not much damage
C) Small race = don't have Weapon Familiarity composite longbows (or Weapon Training) = are not proficient with composite longbows = not much damage.
D) The hafling got a dex bonus but the gnome is hopeless.
Even if you play a Halfling/Gnome archer and waste a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency composite longbow they still have small weapons and a crappy str score. This means they'll have to use deadly aim all the time if the gonna to any damage. With the 3/4 BAB they will have a hard time hitting anything and with a mediocre dex score the damage won't be that great anyway. Also if you're gonna go archer you need at least Precise Shot. A human can get that at lvl 1. The Halfling/Gnome archer will have to wait until lvl 3.
So if you're gonna play an archer Bard you have to go human.
A) Precise Shot at lvl 1 (due to bonus feat)
B) weapons are medium
C) No str penalty
D) Weapon Training (composite longbows)
By the way. I think Half-Elf is a decent race. I play an Half-Elf rogue with skill focus acrobatics. It works well. But I would like the Half-Elf to have the elven Weapon Familiarity (longswor or longbow/composite longbows) or the human Weapon Training.
:-)
cliff |
Well, those last two posts seem more about possible character builds than about the Bard Class specifically. I think the Mattastrophic Five Relevant Points are as follows:
A) The existence of the Perform skill: doubly so since Pathfinder asks that bards take at least two Perform skills to gain their class abilities. The Perform skill doesn't actually do much of anything on its own, other than as a measure of a performer's talent [and earn SP per day]. It does nothing that cannot be replicated by a Profession skill [which earns GP per week]. It doesn't change disposition, it doesn't impress an audience, it doesn't gain glory for the subject of a Bard's tale. The skill Perform is meaningless!
Suggestion: Remove the skill entirely, or at least roll it into other skills, like Diplomacy (to impress an audience) or Intimidate (to scare a rival performer) as all Perform really does currently is force the Bard to drain skill points just to use his class abilities.
B) Bard is the only class whose class abilities require a skill point expenditure. Currently Bards must max out the Perform Skill to gain access to Bardic Performance Class Abilities, a system unlike any other class. Does a rogue have to max out Stealth to use Sneak Attack? Does a druid have to max out Knowledge(Nature) to use Wild Shape? Does a Cleric have to max out Knowledge(Religion) to use Channel Energy? No. But a Bard has to max out Perform to use Bardic Music. And Pathfinder Beta goes a step further, requiring a Bard to max out two (2) Perform categories.
Thus, 3.5 made the Bard go from being a 6+Int skill class to a 5+Int skill class; Pathfinder seeks to make it into a 4+Int skill class, just like Druid or Monk. Is draining the Bard's skill points, reducing its usefulness as a skill-based class, really necessary?
C ) Skill Choice: Bard should probably have Intimidate as a class skill, and Monk and Rogue should probably not have Perform as a class skill, leaving it exclusive to Bards (barring removal of Perform as a skill altogether).
D) Give higher-level Bards the ability to activate Bardic Music faster than as a standard action. A Wiz13 can cast Quickened Haste, yet the Bard is still stuck spending his standard action on Inspire Courage. Or at least spell out how long Inspire Courage can last. When I watched Return of the King most recently, I noticed that King Theoden would inspire his troops before going into battle, not during it. That's what Bards should be able to do: inspire the party all the time, perhaps even with his very presence, not only after the battle has begun.
E) Bard Morale Buffing: Reserve the morale bonus for the Bard (as they have a hard time filling a buff role when they're constantly in competition with the other classes) or change the bonus type to something like "Inspiration Bonus" instead of "Morale Bonus" in order for bonuses to stack with those generated from other classes. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SpC) was particularly damaging to the Bard, for example. A Sorcerer with Heroism also makes the Bard less important, as Heroism lasts 10min/lvl, adds to saves and skill checks, and doesn't have to be activated every combat. The damage begins as early as level 1, when the Cleric's Bless doesn't stack with Inspire Courage. When other classes try, they can outdo the Bard, simply by having a morale-bonus buff as well as other abilities. That's not a good thing. We should fix that.
Pendagast |
Ive always been frustrated with the rules trying to make a relevant bard.
The bard I imagine is kinda like batman.
A dark cloaked shadowy figure (like strider in the prancing pony), he knows many things, legends, stories, secret passwords, the powers to an ancient long-forgotten sword, can activate that weird wand you found.
Connected politically to the underground in most large cities, but operates outside of it.
Like previously mentioned, knows the legendary weaknesses for creatures like silver for werewolves etc.
I picture rolling the assassin into the bard, but not making him evil, necessarily. A dark-knowledgy character whose powers and skills can be used for evil easily (the assassin in him) but inst necessarily for sale.
Everyone who isnt happy with the monk or the bard could effectively roll a combo of the classes together, taking the parts that work the best, dropping the rest and still not endup with an over powered class.
I really would rather see something closer to a dark sun bard, than a lawrence welk with a rapier.
Pendagast |
I would like a bard that could be built into either. I think both work well and fit the bard archtypes rather well (bardic music as theme music... that could cause an intimidation check when the word gets out that there is a "batman" in town!)
IF you could do with the bard what you can now do with the rogue, that would be cool.
Dont give the bard rogue talents, they should be different talents altogether.
But I should be able to drop some singing and lyre playing for more legend/lore and knowledge vs. beasties.
cliff |
I prefer the darker aspects of the Bard too, but also the charming scholarly swashbuckler or jolly minstrel. Bards shoul dbe all of that, and Batman isn't a bad analogy.
I also agree that the Rogue Talents mechanic is best left to the Rogue. It's a static list that Rogues pick from as they gain experience - works perfectly for the class. Same for the Barbarian Rage powers. Those become more available as the Barbarian increases in levels as he gains more Rage Points to spend. That mechanic for gaining powers should stay where it is too, as should the Bloodline style mechanic for Sorcerers. Those each work perfectly for the classes they've been written for.
Bards should be able to do Bardic Music based on Perform...either as a skill or not...but having their power be more random and down to being a reflection of their skills makes the most sense to me.
I've suggested at least two different ways of doing this. Performance is s funny thing, though: A Bard has to be able to make a good performance earn money (which I agree should port out of Perform and utilize the rules in Profession), needs some form of Performance to be able to affect the minds and/or dispositions of others that he encounters (something that Fascinate and Suggestion are sadly trying to do, but coming up sort at achieving) and needs spells that either operate off of Performance or that seem auditory or visual in nature, reflecting the nature of Performances, which the current spell list accomplishes pretty well.
But that's all restating the obvious.
Let's get back to discussing the relevant problems with the class and see if we can find valid improvements of fixes to each.
Black Tom |
I also agree that the Rogue Talents mechanic is best left to the Rogue.
That's not what Pendagast said, and I happen to disagree with you. Of course bard talents should be different from rogue talents, but that doesn't mean that the mechanic needs to be.
I think talents is a great way to diversify bards. That also means that not all bards need to be dependent on songs to the same degree. Apart from the list compiled already I think that some of the 1st level domain powers, like Hand of the Acolyte (although based on Cha) and Touch of Glory, would work great as bard talents, as would Trapfinding and Martial Weapon Proficiency. Some of the bard feats, like Green Ear, Requiem, Lingering Song, Song of the Heart and Snowflake Wardance also come to mind.
I'm fine with keeping the bard a jack-of-all-trades or a magical rogue. IMHO the 1st edition bard is a terrible thing to try to emulate. I'm not against improving the bard by making the bardic music better, but i have still too see any concrete suggestions that I like.
Pendagast |
cliff wrote:I also agree that the Rogue Talents mechanic is best left to the Rogue.That's not what Pendagast said, and I happen to disagree with you. Of course bard talents should be different from rogue talents, but that doesn't mean that the mechanic needs to be.
I think talents is a great way to diversify bards. That also means that not all bards need to be dependent on songs to the same degree. Apart from the list compiled already I think that some of the 1st level domain powers, like Hand of the Acolyte (although based on Cha) and Touch of Glory, would work great as bard talents, as would Trapfinding and Martial Weapon Proficiency. Some of the bard feats, like Green Ear, Requiem, Lingering Song, Song of the Heart and Snowflake Wardance also come to mind.
I'm fine with keeping the bard a jack-of-all-trades or a magical rogue. IMHO the 1st edition bard is a terrible thing to try to emulate. I'm not against improving the bard by making the bardic music better, but i have still too see any concrete suggestions that I like.
The first edition bard, was essentially the first ever prestige class.
The mechanics of rogue talents Iwas thinking of adapting,just not copy and paste the rogue talents down to the bard. that would steal from the rogue.
But if one wanted to say have a dark bard that influenced the minds of others (suggestion) by way of his intimidate skill (ala batman) he should be able to do that, and not even KNOW HOW to sing.
I suggest instead of rogue talents, how-a-about: Bard Paths!
These would work like feat trees, and there could be say six paths, but by choosing a path at first level, you would have to exclude on of those paths (like a wizard specialist)
Lets say spell casting is a path.
Assassination is a path.
Legend/Lore is a path
Charming Performance is a path
Skill monger a path
and Master of blades, a path
Those who dont want to cast spells or charm people with songs could drop those aspects of bard and pick other paths, Master of blades might have an aspect of "perform" that would stack with intimidation, make him more comptenant in combat, and expound even further on the dazzling display feat, and lead perfectly into the duelist PrC.
The Assassination path, may not be good if Jason wants to keep the Assassin as a PrC. Ive always envisioned the assassin and his medical knowledge rolled into the "dark bard" like in dark sun, as what akes the assassin so deadly is his knowledge others do not have,
Either way, wecould spend some time developing 6-8 Paths, buff the bard with those paths, make him oodles of fun more to play and depending on the path(s) one takes he could go on to lore master, pathfinder chronicler, duelist, assassin, or just "all around bard" by taking more and more Paths as he levels.
at first level Id say the bard picks a path, and an excluded path, then takes on the class features of that path, and 5th he can choose another path (and exlude another) but is able to take the class features of both paths as he levels, at 9th he takes his third path (and excludes another) all the while contuning to get class features from previous paths.
If we only have six paths, the path selection would end at 9th (with 3 chosen and 3 excluded) but if we had 8 paths then he could hoose another path at 12th (and exclude the final choice)
This would both buff the bard and create a myriad of different bard possiblities.
Any thoughts on a quick bard reorganization??
Laurefindel |
So, back to the beginning...
A) The existence of the Perform skill
I personally wish to keep Perform as a separate skill. It is unique enough that people make a living out of it, and for that reason alone, should have its separate entry. Some have suggested to roll it into the Profession skill, but the Perform skill has ramification that goes beyond the scope of the Profession skill. ”Feeling down? Let me show you how good a sailor I am, that will cheer you right up!”
I’m also against removing it from the list and giving it exclusively to the bard. While I understand that most minstrel player characters will most likely have levels in the bard class, it would also mean that every musician/singer in the realm would have magical abilities, and by extension, that music itself have magical properties. While it would make a very interesting campaign setting, it does not work very well in a campaign-neutral core rule set.
That being said, I do have issues with the Perform skill, but this is the subject of another tread
B) Bard is the only class whose class abilities require a skill point expenditure. Currently Bards must max out the Perform Skill to gain access to Bardic Performance Class Abilities, a system unlike any other class.
I wouldn’t mind this if the number of ranks that the bard has invested in the Perform skill somehow had any impact on the DC of its abilities, but as it is no longer the case, I have to question the pertinence of that as well.
C ) Skill Choice: Bard should probably have Intimidate as a class skill, and Monk and Rogue should probably not have Perform as a class skill, leaving it exclusive to Bards (barring removal of Perform as a skill altogether).
I agree with the first statement, but disagree with the second one. Bards are the only class drawing magical properties out of the Perform skill, which is a exclusivity in its own.
D) Give higher-level Bards the ability to activate Bardic Music faster than as a standard action.
I would very much like to see that, and it makes sense mechanically speaking, but it does not make any common sense. Given that there is only 6 seconds in a round, it is already a far stretch to imagine that the bard can draw its instrument, play an inspiring tune, never mind a recognizable tune, as a standard action, I don’t see how this could be done as a swift action.
This however can (and should) easily be corrected by altering the fluff description of the bardic “music”, especially concerning all the Inspire Courage/Competence/Greatness/Heroics
E) Bard Morale Buffing: Reserve the morale bonus for the Bard
... couldn’t agree more
In addition, as Abraham Spalding so eloquently stated, most of the bardic music abilities arrive so late that the bard can (and in some cases, has been able for a while) recreate the same effect by casting a spell. As a matter of fact, I consider this THE main flaw of the present iteration of the bard
More to come soon...
‘findel
cliff |
The mechanics of rogue talents Iwas thinking of adapting,just not copy and paste the rogue talents down to the bard. that would steal from the rogue.
No, Bards shold definitely not use the exact Rogue talents wholesale.
But if one wanted to say have a dark bard that influenced the minds of others (suggestion) by way of his intimidate skill (ala batman) he should be able to do that, and not even KNOW HOW to sing.
I suggest instead of rogue talents, how-a-about: Bard Paths!
These would work like feat trees, and there could be say six paths, but by choosing a path at first level, you would have to exclude on of those paths (like a wizard specialist)
Hmm. This contradicts your statement that you want to use the same mechanic as Rogue Talents, but I'll let that slide. However, I will point out that it's a similar suggestion to my re-write idea.
My idea was, first, remove Perform as a skill and place it under Bard as a class abiltiy. Then, at certain ecperience levels, the Bard player would choose Bardic Performances from a short list. The Bardic Performance he picks is assigned to a skill, such as Intimidate or Bluff, thereby arriving at a Bard with the ability to perform Suggestion by rolling a...let's say...Bluff check. That skill makes the most sense in my current example, but it could just as easily be assigned to Intimidate, or K(Dungeoneering), or whatever. The way I'd planned to select the power availability was such that choosing a certain power at one opportunity would suggest a path, without being so concrete that a player would feel locked in. In other words, one might choose a power that deals with affecting the minds of others (Suggestion) and there would be a logical "next power" at the next opportunity to pick, but it wouldn't feel mandatorym and the Bard could coose a power more geared towards combat or traps or something instead. Nobody really commented, though, so I stopped talking about it or fleshing out the idea.
Lets say spell casting is a path.
Assassination is a path.
Legend/Lore is a path
Charming Performance is a path
Skill monger a path
and Master of blades, a path
Legend/Lore is pretty well covered with Bardic Knowledge, and I don't think Assassination is right - rather something that suggests stealth and deadliness potential. You see, a goof Charmer can turn that into an Assassination ability. Frvrmy breakdown, though.
So, back to the beginning...
A) The existence of the Perform skill
That being said, I do have issues with the Perform skill, but this is the subject of another tread
I agree with you in the other thread, but I'm not so sure it needs to be a skill. I explain below...
B) Bard is the only class whose class abilities require a skill point expenditure. Currently Bards must max out the Perform Skill to gain access to Bardic Performance Class Abilities, a system unlike any other class.
I wouldn’t mind this if the number of ranks that the bard has invested in the Perform skill somehow had any impact on the DC of its abilities, but as it is no longer the case, I have to question the pertinence of that as well.
Easy solution is to change the static "10+CHAbonus" in the DC formula to a Performand Skill roll. That means, however, that some Bardic Performances would have to roll while others woul dbe inexplicably free to use, which I don't like.
C ) Skill Choice: Bard should probably have Intimidate as a class skill, and Monk and Rogue should probably not have Perform as a class skill, leaving it exclusive to Bards (barring removal of Perform as a skill altogether).
I agree with the first statement, but disagree with the second one. Bards are the only class drawing magical properties out of the...
Yes, but the Cross Class penalty in PF is gone, so a Monk can excell in exactly the same was a a Bard, and that makes no sense. Taking it away as a class skill for Monk and Rogue means that they just don't get the +3 so they're always behind a Bard of similar level.
D) Give higher-level Bards the ability to activate Bardic Music faster than as a standard action.
I would very much like to see that, and it makes sense mechanically speaking, but it does not make any common sense.
I agree. The timing gets odd. perhaps it makes sense with Bard Spells at some point, but, really, that comes down to choosing the Feat.
[E) Bard Morale Buffing: Reserve the morale bonus for the Bard
... couldn’t agree more
In addition, as Abraham Spalding so eloquently stated, most of the bardic music abilities arrive so late that the bard can (and in some cases, has been able for a while) recreate the same effect by casting a spell. As a matter of fact, I consider this THE main flaw of the present iteration of the bard.
I think changing the descriptor works perfectly. It is the biggest flaw, but changing the named bonus from "Morale" to "Inspiration" is a Find/Replace sort of fix, and it instantly allows Bard moral buffs to stack with other types of buffs.