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Hi All,
I've started this new thread because I want to discuss options for spellcasting for paladins. LastKnightLeft, this is the thread I was talking about. :)
As I see it, there's a few different paths to take here:
1) Leave it as it is. Spellcasting is a minor ability of the class and it's fine as written.
2) Change it to make it more flexible. Should the paladin be able to cast spells from his entire class list, or is this too much power? Personally, I think making them like a spontaneous caster with a clutch of known spells to choose from is a better option.
3) Dump it altogether. The paladin is getting enough new abilities and SLA's that the handful of spells they get are not needed anymore.
Discuss?
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1) not an option, paladin spellcasting if it stays needs to be worth wasting a standard action. Take divine favor for instance, classic paladin spell. If a cleric were to cast it at the level you get it, it would last twice as long, at level 6 it would give a +2, the paladin has to wait till level 12 to get the same +2. what's the point of even having spellcasting if it's not worth using?
2) the problem with this as has been discussed on several other threads is that if you give them a limited spells known they'll just learn the spells they are allready memorizing.
You say that the paladin gaining full spellcasting ala the warmage would tip his spellcasting to make it to powerful, but I don't understand that arguement, take a look at the paladins spellcasting. then tell me which spell on his list would be too powerful to have if he didn't have to memorize, and explain to me why he wouldn't just memorize it to begin with.
I also don't think it would make the paladin focus more on spellcasting. He still has the same limited # of spells per day, at the best this flexibility would merely mean that he doesn't just memorize the same spells he always memorizes (the same ones that every paladin ever always memorize, ask around, its a short list) and might occasionally use one of those never used spells.
3) would work, but then you'd better have a lot of suggestions on what to replace it with because the paladin has not much in the way of combat abilities, so the loss of spellcasting would take something even bigger to make up for its loss.
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Hi and thanks for posting.
My major concern about giving paladins access to a whole range of spells like the warmage is that there are currently so many to choose from. The warmage has a short, fixed list and is limited almost entirely to combat spells (evocation and conjuration mostly). There is no particular spell on the paladin list that is unbalanced, but being able to choose all of them all the time is.
If the paladin had access to all of the spells from all of the splatbooks and 3rd party materials, that would be very unbalanced since the paladin no longer needs to carefully choose his spells and he'd potentially have a "spell for every occasion". Throw in multiple pearls of power & the proposed swift action casting times and balance goes bye-bye. IMO of course.
IF you were to limit the paladin's spell selection to a small clutch of spells known like the warmage or sorcerer/bard, then I'd see it being a quite workable solution. I lean towards the sorcerer model since the player would be able to customize his spell list according to his play style. I would allow them to know more spells to keep it interesting (bonus spells like bloodline only based on diety?)
Whether you are designing a class from the ground up or just adjusting an existing one to make it more playable, you need to take into account the big picture. How do all of these little class abilities interact and affect the overall power level? A paladin may not be as good a warrior as an all out fighter, or as good a caster as a cleric of the same level, but they are a good and equal compromise between the two-or at least should be -that's the point of the redesign.
Thanks again for your input.
X
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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In a way compensating for splatbook/SpellComp spells is an unanswerable conundrum for PF. They want classes to be backwards compatible, but many of the solutions for the various classes are not too far off of things instantiated in splatbooks anyway. Which leads to a certain ability to double-dip on the base class being fixed, PLUS using spells and whatever for the spell that were themselves created as "fixes."
Sometimes the fix makes the spell superfluous (who needs swift bless weapon if a paladin's spells are already swift actions?), but the feel is that it opens up more problems than it negates.
Still, the problem for Paizo is that they can't explicitly legislate splatbook parameters since they aren't OGL. They can only deal with OGL spells and their own additions to that (like, say, breath of life and the various polymorph spells) and try to set up a bit of a picket fence around PF vs. the encroachment of splat-mania.
This problem is made worse by the principle that all divine casters automatically know all spells that might be possible to learn. Every time a new book is added, their spell list is expanded. Not so for the arcanes. Everytime a new book is added, they CAN learn new tricks, but it's not automatic.
So what's the answer?
Don't make splatbook access automatic.
There have been plenty of campaign worlds with the posit of "common" "uncommon" and "rare" spells.
Common spells are the ones that everybody knows all the time.
Uncommon spells are ones that are known OF and are in general circulation, but nobody automatically gets them. Certain specific churches, mage guilds, countries/cultures, etc. will have these spells, and for the people in their club, these spells are effectively "common." For anybody else, they have to be accessed either through purchase of scrolls/spellbooks, learned by training, or learned by feat (see the Player's Guide to Faerun and the "Initiate of... " feats).
Rare spells are just that: rare. Spells that NOBODY knows unless specific individuals happen to discover them, either through their own research or through discovery of ancient tomes, prayer books, etc.
You can use any spell you want in the game, but a simple campaign rarity system deflects much of the "OMG they auto-learn everything!" problem.
Now, that's a setting solution to a system problem, but only if you assume that the system presupposes automatic access to all spells.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Sorry, to follow up, here's the solution:
Assume that a paladin knows all the base spells on the PF paladin list. Then add a class ability like a beguiler's or warmage's "Advanced Learning" every 2 to 3 levels that lets them add additional spells to their spell list. In order to add a spell from a splatbook, or if you like a spell from the Cleric list, they have to use this class ability. You just put a giant bottleneck on splatmania. They can still get the spells but only at a trickle, not a flood.
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Hi and thanks for posting.
My major concern about giving paladins access to a whole range of spells like the warmage is that there are currently so many to choose from. The warmage has a short, fixed list and is limited almost entirely to combat spells (evocation and conjuration mostly). There is no particular spell on the paladin list that is unbalanced, but being able to choose all of them all the time is.
If the paladin had access to all of the spells from all of the splatbooks and 3rd party materials, that would be very unbalanced since the paladin no longer needs to carefully choose his spells and he'd potentially have a "spell for every occasion". Throw in multiple pearls of power & the proposed swift action casting times and balance goes bye-bye. IMO of course.
IF you were to limit the paladin's spell selection to a small clutch of spells known like the warmage or sorcerer/bard, then I'd see it being a quite workable solution. I lean towards the sorcerer model since the player would be able to customize his spell list according to his play style. I would allow them to know more spells to keep it interesting (bonus spells like bloodline only based on diety?)
Whether you are designing a class from the ground up or just adjusting an existing one to make it more playable, you need to take into account the big picture. How do all of these little class abilities interact and affect the overall power level? A paladin may not be as good a warrior as an all out fighter, or as good a caster as a cleric of the same level, but they are a good and equal compromise between the two-or at least should be -that's the point of the redesign.
Thanks again for your input.
X
What spell list are you looking at, seriously, I have every complete x book and the full spell list from the Pathfinder RPG and the spell compendium at my fingertips. The paladin spell selection is as short a list with all those books as the Warmages full list. The only difference is that there is slightly more utility to the paladins list because of access to curative spells.
Seriously any good offensive spell is allready memorized so your worried that a paladin being able to cast a limited number of curative spells. Are you saying that curative spells being able to be cast in the situation they would be needed is too powerful?
Or just take Jason's second post solution, which would fit perfectly.
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@ Jason: That summed my problem up very succinctly. Thanks!
A game mechanic like a fixed list with bonus learning greatly curtails the chances of Splatttageddon but allows for customization too. It's sad that we have to put anti-munchkin clauses into the game, but sometimes the LCD needs to be taken into account. :(
@ LKL: I think we're agreed that Jason's proposal is the most workable, but the list has to be limited.
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The following was posted on the main Paladin thread, as a possible compromise for those who thought full spontaneous access to the full list was too much.
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The way the spontaneous casting rules are written, the caster has to choose just a few spells that they can cast from the overall list. I'm not talking about shrinking the list, I'm talking about the fact that Paladins would have to select 4 or 5 spells/level from the available list.
That's the way bards and sorcerors work, but it doesn't have to be the only way spontaneous casters work.
The fact that those are arcane casters means their spells are deemed more powerful than divine casters. There's also the issue that bards are supposed to be 'dabblers', and have other areas of interest (BAB, high skill points and bardic music), so limiting their spells known is required.
Clerics and Druids use spontaneous casting (albeit one spell of each level), and have full access to their whole list, these lists being far longer than the Paladin list.
If full spontaneity feels like too much, how about a half-way system, like the Cleric or Druid, in which the paladin prepares as normal, from the full list, but at each gain of a new spell level, he picks several spells of that level (maybe=non-buffed Cha bonus?), that he can always default to, just like clerics and druids do with cure/inflict/summon nature's ally? And maybe allow a re-shuffle of lower-level defaults whenever a higher level of spells is gained?
I kind of think the 'problem' with splat books is a red herring issue. I realise they are there but DM's can edit as they think they need too and we are focusing on "core" right now so just limit it to "paladin can spotaneaously cast any spell on the following list. Any other spell must be added by the DM." or something along those lines.
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@ LKL: I think we're agreed that Jason's proposal is the most workable, but the list has to be limited.
What the pathfinder list? his solution ends the splatbook fear you have, so the only list left needing to be limited is the Pathfinder list...
I seriously can't understand what spell on the pathfinder list you're worried about giving the paladin spontaneous access too. I think he should get full access to the pathfinder list.
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I kind of think the 'problem' with splat books is a red herring issue. I realise they are there but DM's can edit as they think they need too and we are focusing on "core" right now so just limit it to "paladin can spotaneaously cast any spell on the following list. Any other spell must be added by the DM." or something along those lines.
The mountain of splatbooks needs to considered since BC is a goal for PFRPG. If a character is limited soley by the player's pocketbook or ability to download copies off the interweb, munchkinism is not too far off. Having solid limits set either in the class or by sensible GM's (which cannot always be guaranteed) greatly reduces the potential for abuse.
That's all IMO, and I could be totally mad. MAD, I tell you!!!
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I kind of think the 'problem' with splat books is a red herring issue. I realise they are there but DM's can edit as they think they need too and we are focusing on "core" right now so just limit it to "paladin can spotaneaously cast any spell on the following list. Any other spell must be added by the DM." or something along those lines.The mountain of splatbooks needs to considered since BC is a goal for PFRPG. If a character is limited soley by the player's pocketbook or ability to download copies off the interweb, munchkinism is not too far off. Having solid limits set either in the class or by sensible GM's (which cannot always be guaranteed) greatly reduces the potential for abuse.
That's all IMO, and I could be totally mad. MAD, I tell you!!!
you're not mad, I've seen splatbookmania go to far, but by the point that it's gone to far for the paladin, the cleric and wizard have allready destroyed the world and the paladin is just crushing the leftover bits.
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I seriously can't understand what spell on the pathfinder list you're worried about giving the paladin spontaneous access too. I think he should get full access to the pathfinder list.
I already said that no individual spell was unbalanced, I was concerned that making every spell out there available increased the potential for abuse.
I don't have my books handy, but it would be gratifying to know how many spells the beguiler, duskblade (esp this one since they're both 1/1 BAB classes) and warmage have to choose from. This would be useful in getting a feel for how many spells paladins should have spontaneous access to.
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Well the duskblade has a smaller list, but the warmage and beguiler are pretty much = in size to the paladin list, and that's level-level comparison, when you consider that the beguiler gets 5th level spells and the warmage gets up to 9th, they both have more spells.
The duskblade though has the ability to channel spells through his weapon and gets features that turn him into a spellfighter. The paladins spellcasting always remains a seperate choice from the attack roll (unless you take battle blessing from complete champion, but that doesn't give them synergy, just makes every paladin spell quickened and a DM can always disallow it) and the paladin has no damage dealing spells, or save or sucks, he should have a slightly larger list than the paladin, I can post a comparison of # of spells tommorow. but even then he doesn't have many more.
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I think some people may be missing the real enemy, if they're spending any time worrying about what the paladin or ranger might cast from a supplement, rather than being up in arms over what the cleric and wizard are able to cast, using Core Rules.
you're not mad, I've seen splatbookmania go to far, but by the point that it's gone to far for the paladin, the cleric and wizard have allready destroyed the world and the paladin is just crushing the leftover bits.
That's Snorter everyone, always ready to come in and make a point I made 5 minutes ago...
Dance puppet dance.
;)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Well the duskblade has a smaller list, but the warmage and beguiler are pretty much = in size to the paladin list, and that's level-level comparison, when you consider that the beguiler gets 5th level spells and the warmage gets up to 9th, they both have more spells.
The duskblade though has the ability to channel spells through his weapon and gets features that turn him into a spellfighter. The paladins spellcasting always remains a seperate choice from the attack roll (unless you take battle blessing from complete champion, but that doesn't give them synergy, just makes every paladin spell quickened and a DM can always disallow it) and the paladin has no damage dealing spells, or save or sucks, he should have a slightly larger list than the paladin, I can post a comparison of # of spells tommorow. but even then he doesn't have many more.
Beguilers get up to 9th.
I should know - I'm playing one at 20th level in STAP! One session to go for the big showdown at Wat Dagon!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I think some people may be missing the real enemy, if they're spending any time worrying about what the paladin or ranger might cast from a supplement, rather than being up in arms over what the cleric and wizard are able to cast, using Core Rules.
ding!
Prize him up, Johnny!
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I think some people may be missing the real enemy, if they're spending any time worrying about what the paladin or ranger might cast from a supplement, rather than being up in arms over what the cleric and wizard are able to cast, using Core Rules.
CoDzilla and Batman are problems too, but for a different week. :)
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Beguilers get up to 9th.
I should know - I'm playing one at 20th level in STAP! One session to go for the big showdown at Wat Dagon!
Oh, memory told me he was like the bard.
Well there you go Xhutta, the beguiler and the warmage have = # of spells per level, but when you add 5-9th level spells, have more spells available then our Paladin.
So then what do you say now about the paladins spell list. Which I have considered the entire list for availability spontaneously and I argue that it isn't overpowered at all taken as a whole.
By the way, this is my last post for today, going home to get my house ready for game tonight, tommorow I should be posting a playtest summary of my life now that a cleric is coming to join the party.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I think some people may be missing the real enemy, if they're spending any time worrying about what the paladin or ranger might cast from a supplement, rather than being up in arms over what the cleric and wizard are able to cast, using Core Rules.CoDzilla and Batman are problems too, but for a different week. :)
Yknow, it's funny, for all of the CoDzilla, I'd say 2/3 or more of the postings during the now THREE weeks of Clr/Drd/Pal conversation were on the paladin.
And most of the rest were on druid animal companions... :)
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Well there you go Xhutta, the beguiler and the warmage have = # of spells per level, but when you add 5-9th level spells, have more spells available then our Paladin.
Now that I have an idea of proportion, I can better wrap my head around how all the pieces fit together. The perfect solution would be to look at a class that is primarily a fighter (1/1 BAB but has spells) rather than a rogue/mage or armoured mage, but I think your point is more or less made.
So, to sum up:
-Paladin spontaneous caster from a fixed list (paladin list in PFRPG)
-Additional spells from another source as expanded learning
Do you think that those expanded learning spells should be from the cleric list or some other source?
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Yknow, it's funny, for all of the CoDzilla, I'd say 2/3 or more of the postings during the now THREE weeks of Clr/Drd/Pal conversation were on the paladin.
And most of the rest were on druid animal companions... :)
True; but the way to bring the full casters back to the realm of sanity, is to amend the spell descriptions, which is a job for later.
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Well there you go Xhutta, the beguiler and the warmage have = # of spells per level, but when you add 5-9th level spells, have more spells available then our Paladin.
Now that I have an idea of proportion, I can better wrap my head around how all the pieces fit together. The perfect solution would be to look at a class that is primarily a fighter (1/1 BAB but has spells) rather than a rogue/mage or armoured mage, but I think your point is more or less made.
So, to sum up:
-Paladin spontaneous caster from a fixed list (paladin list in PFRPG)
-Additional spells from another source as expanded learningDo you think that those expanded learning spells should be from the cleric list or some other source?
I think it should be both, if by other sources you mean splat books. Remember that the paladin will only be able to learn 1-4th level cleric spells. and by the time he gets them the cleric is casting 6-9 level spells, you really aren't overpowering the paladin.
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Ok my thoughts:
Basically leave paladin spellcasting as is.
Make caster level equal to paladin level.
Make more spells have better duration or be cast as swift actions or both.
As for spells from splatbooks...
As a DM, I would normally say no "brown books" (which is what i used to call the splatbooks.) unless I have read through and approved what the player wanted to use.
There were just too many books and as far as I was concerned I couldn't keep up with them so I had to take a stand.
IMO, There are only 2 Rule Books in D&D .. PHB and DMG. Everything else (including even MM) are options to be used or permitted at the DMs discretion. Houserules are agreed upon by everyone before going into play.
But i digressed.
Well part of the reason i think paladin spellcasting should be spontaneous is because paladins don't really have a lot of choice in spells. They either take the same buff that they know are always useful, or they risk memorizing a situational spell that wont be used. As a result, if you look at 90% of paladins out there, they usually have the same spells memorized. This doesn't happen as much with full caster due to their large spell lists and numerous spell slots.
That's the main reason I want paladins to have spontaneous casting, because it keeps their spells memorized from looking like carbon copies.