If Undead get bonus hp from Cha, why not give Constructs bonus hp for Str?

[JRM]

This idea popped into my head while reading the sneak attack thread.

Consider two Large 8 HD constructs, one made of tissue paper, the other of wrought iron. Just going by the rules, both should have the same average Hit Points, as they both have the same hit dice and size bonus.

That doesn't seem right to me, so I think bonus HP should depend on how tough the Construct's material and design is. Now you could apply a bonus to HP depending on what a Construct's made of, say "hardness rating × size factor" so a Large Steel Construct could get something like 15 (steel) × 2 (Large) = 30 bonus HP and so forth but that's more fiddly and would need more work to restat 3E D&D Constructs, but it occurs to me that the Strength score of the construct is a good measure of how strongly put together it is, similar to how the Cha score may measure the strength of the 'soul-force' holding an Undead together. A high Str golem must be solidly put together to be able to apply that strength without damaging itself, so why not use Str as its HP bonus ability like Pathfinder Undead use Cha.

I'm thinking this bonus would not apply to Fortitude saves, unlike Undead Cha bonus, just HPs. I don't think the substance of a (non-living) Construct as counter-reacting to Fortitude attacks like the flesh of an Undead would.

The 'Living Construct' subtype would just use Con as normal, this rule would only apply to standard Constructs that lack a Constitution score.

Any thoughts?

[Marty1000]

I think this is a good suggestion. it makes sense and gives these CON-less enemies more toughness that they lack.

I must say that I thought taking the CON scores away for undead, constructs and such wasn't my favorite thing in 3/3.5. The idea of say a fighter with a high con being turned into a vampire could actually lose hitpoints. that didn't make sense to me.

[orcface999]

If you start rating constructs hit points according to their material structure, somebody is going to want to sunder because it's an object. Armor class ought to be keyed to the structure though. A LoMein golem should be easier to hit than an adamantine golem regardless of the fact they have the same number of hit points (I would argue that the LoMein golem would be larger).

[JRM]

orcface999 wrote:

If you start rating constructs hit points according to their material structure, somebody is going to want to sunder because it's an object. Armor class ought to be keyed to the structure though. A LoMein golem should be easier to hit than an adamantine golem regardless of the fact they have the same number of hit points (I would argue that the LoMein golem would be larger).

I'd be able to follow this argument better if I knew what LoMein was.

Certainly a steel golem should have a better AC than a wood golem, but in D&D terms that just makes it more difficult to land a telling blow against one, it doesn't affect how many times you have to make telling blows to destroy it. You can make make them tougher by giving them DR or hardness, of course, but that's opens its own barrel of worms.

[James Jacobs]

This is certainly worth looking into... although it's a little weird since there's no precedent for Str = HP like there is for Constitution and Charisma in the game. Further, constructs get a flat number of bonus hit points as it is and have good AC and have good damage reduction usually; not all undead have good AC and good damage reduction.

I'd rather consider revising the amount of bonus hit points constructs get, but in games I've played, fights against constructs have rarely felt like pushovers, and fights against undead usually do unless they're liches or incorporeal and the PCs don't have the tools to get through their DR.

[Quandary]

JRM wrote:

I'd be able to follow this argument better if I knew what Lo Mein was.

Whoah, is there NOODLE Golems?

(Only vulnerable to Crits from Special Monk Weapon: Chopsticks)

[JRM]

James Jacobs wrote:

This is certainly worth looking into... although it's a little weird since there's no precedent for Str = HP like there is for Constitution and Charisma in the game. Further, constructs get a flat number of bonus hit points as it is and have good AC and have good damage reduction usually; not all undead have good AC and good damage reduction.

I'd rather consider revising the amount of bonus hit points constructs get, but in games I've played, fights against constructs have rarely felt like pushovers, and fights against undead usually do unless they're liches or incorporeal and the PCs don't have the tools to get through their DR.

Not in D&D, but I've seen GURPS house rules that have Strength as the HP-depending stat instead of CO, while having Constitution as the fatigue-depending stat instead of ST.

If I was going to use it this option in a D&D game I'd probably drop the Construct's bonus HPs, since the extra HP from Str should make up for it. Similar to how they dropped bonus HP from Oozes while boosting their Con when D&D switched from 3.0 to 3.5.

As for modifying the bonus HPs (by material?), that's a perfectly acceptable alternative but would require more work, since each Construct would need to be assigned a revised HP rating of some kind.

[KaeYoss]

JRM wrote:

Not in D&D, but I've seen GURPS house rules that have Strength as the HP-depending stat instead of CO, while having Constitution as the fatigue-depending stat instead of ST.

Con's already the ability score for fatigue.

[-Archangel-]

Am I crazy or I haven't heard about this Cha modifier as bonus hp for Undead?!

Can anyone point me in the right direction? :D

[seekerofshadowlight]

I think it is a feat called unholy fortitude or something. It's in a non open wotc book.

[Jal Dorak]

Don't forget that both undead and constructs qualify for the Toughness feat, which is much better in PRPG.

Personally I would rather see a construct bonus to be related to the material they are made from.

[seekerofshadowlight]

I would be for that one. Could be simple something like a flat bounes based off the hp per inch of the substance. Maybe or that per HD like normal

[Jal Dorak]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I would be for that one. Could be simple something like a flat bounes based off the hp per inch of the substance. Maybe or that per HD like normal

Even if the size bonus is changed from a flat bonus to a bonus per HD.

While we're on the subject, why not just give monsters without a Con score maximum hit points per hit die?

[seekerofshadowlight]

Well if we did that here is where it gets bad.
Iron=10
stone=8
clay=5[lets say same as wood]
Flesh=2[lets go leather]

So are classic golems would now be
Iron=18HD=309hp
Flesh=9HD=97hp
Clay=11HD=145 HP
Stone=14HD=219hp
Greater stone=42HD=607hp

WHILE cool it is kinda a scary thought

[seekerofshadowlight]

humm max hp would be nice

[Jal Dorak]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

humm max hp would be nice

Let's see how that would work out (old hit points in bracket):

Clay Golem: 140 (90)
Flesh Golem: 120 (79)
Iron Golem: 210 (129)
Stone Golem: 170 (107), Greater: 460 (271)

But interestingly also affects things like Gorgons: 120 (85) [131 with Toughness].

I have to amend my earlier statement - Constructs with Intelligence scores qualify for Toughness. :)

Looking for justification, constructs are built from a template so it is unlikely they have random hit points.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Yeah hardness seems to over the top I do like the way max HP flows

[-Archangel-]

Actually, Zombies as such get Toughness so I see not problem for Constructs getting the same.

[Jal Dorak]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Yeah hardness seems to over the top I do like the way max HP flows

Yeah, I had an encounter with a fighter using an adamantine sword and it didn't last quite long enough. The only problem I can see is if you don't have the tools you might be in real trouble against a golem - but is that such a bad thing?

-Archangel- wrote:

Actually, Zombies as such get Toughness so I see not problem for Constructs getting the same.

I agree. But the only problem is that there are so few constructs apart from golems, and golems cannot use feats.

[KaeYoss]

JRM wrote:

Consider two Large 8 HD constructs, one made of tissue paper, the other of wrought iron. Just going by the rules, both should have the same average Hit Points, as they both have the same hit dice and size bonus.

How the heck did you get a tissue paper golem with 8HD?

Forget that question. How the heck did you get a tissue paper golem??

[seekerofshadowlight]

Ok frist you have never had to move a pallet of tissue paper with a jack I can see.

2nd modern rules...we so need a tire golem as well

[JRM]

KaeYoss wrote:

JRM wrote:

Consider two Large 8 HD constructs, one made of tissue paper, the other of wrought iron. Just going by the rules, both should have the same average Hit Points, as they both have the same hit dice and size bonus.

How the heck did you get a tissue paper golem with 8HD?

Forget that question. How the heck did you get a tissue paper golem??

It was easy, I just ordered a hundred gross boxes of kleenex, loosely stuck them together into a Huge vaguely humanoid shape, a quick Animate Object to make an 8 HD Construct, then Reduce the resulting monster to Large size and Permanency. Of course it helps if you're the DM, since you don't have to bribe yourself to get away with it. :)

[JRM]

Now as for HPs, let's see. If we use my idea of Str as the HP bonus stat and drop the bonus HP for being a Construct.

Clay Golem (Str 25=+7, HD 11d10+77, 137 hp)
Flesh Golem (Str 21=+5, HD 9d10+45, 94 hp)
Iron Golem (Str 33=+11, HD 18d10+198, 297 hp)
Stone Golem (Str 29=+9, 14d10+126, 203 hp)
Greater Stone Golem (Str 37=+13, 42d10+546, 777 hp)

Ouch, that's a lot of hit points for the Greater Stone Golem.

As for using the hp/inch of substances, what I was thinking of as an alternative to the bonus HP by Str was multiplying the material hp/inch by a size factor, say equal to the SRD Construct Bonus Hit Points divided by 5. That's 2 for Small, 4 for Medium, 6 for Large, 8 for Huge, 12 for Gargantuan and 16 for Colossal Constructs.

Using seekerofshadowlight Iron = 10, Stone = 8, Clay = 5, Flesh = 2 that would give HPs of:

Clay Golem (Bonus HP 6 [Large] ×5 [Clay]) HD 11d10+30, 107 hp
Flesh Golem (Bonus HP 6 [Large] ×2 [Flesh]) HD 9d10+12, 61 hp
Iron Golem (Bonus HP 6 [Large] ×10 [Iron]) HD 18d10+60, 159 hp
Stone Golem (Bonus HP 6 [Large] ×8 [Stone]) HD 14d10+48, 125 hp
Greater Stone Golem (Bonus HP 8 [Huge] ×8 [Stone]) HD 42d10+64, 292 hp

Hmm, the Flesh Golem is now weaker than the SRD version. That's easy to fix by saying its alchemically treated flesh is as tough as wood, so its bonus HPs go back to 30:

Revised Flesh Golem (Bonus HP 6 [Large] ×5 [toughened Flesh]) HD 9d10+30, 79 hp

That's pretty close to the SRD versions of Golems. The Stone and Iron have a few more HPs, but not enough for it to make much of a difference. The change will be more significant with Animated Objects, since they have fewer HD so the bonus HP will be proportionally larger:

Small Animated Object
HD 1d10(5hp), Bonus HP = Size[2]×Material = 2×2 [Leather +4hp], 2×5 [Wood/Clay +10hp], 2×8[Stone+16hp] or 2×10 [Iron +20hp]
Total HP => hp 9 (Leather), hp 15 (Wood/Clay), hp 21 (Stone), hp 25 (Iron)
Medium Animated Object
HD 2d10(11hp), Bonus HP = Size[4] ×Material = 4×2 [Leather +8hp], 4×5 [Wood/Clay +20hp], 4×8 [Stone +32hp] or 4×10 [Iron +40hp]
Total HP => hp 19 (Leather), hp 31 (Wood/Clay), hp 43 (Stone), hp 51 (Iron)
Large Animated Object
HD 4d10(22hp), Bonus HP = Size[6] × Material = 6×2 [Leather +12hp], 6×5 [Wood/Clay +30hp], 6×8[Stone +48hp] or 6×10 [Iron +60hp]
Total HP => hp 34 (Leather), hp 52 (Wood/Clay), hp 70 (Stone), hp 82 (Iron)
Huge Animated Object
HD 8d10(44hp), Bonus HP = Size [8] × Material = 8×2 [Leather +16hp], 8×5 [Wood/Clay +40hp], 8×8 [Stone +64hp] or 8×10 [Iron +80hp]
Total HP => hp 60 (Leather), hp 84 (Wood/Clay), hp 108 (Stone), hp 124 (Iron)
Gargantuan Animated Object
HD 16d10(88hp), Bonus HP = Size [12] × Material = 12×2 [Leather +24hp], 12×5 [Wood/Clay +60hp], 12×8 [Stone +96hp] or 12×10 [Iron +120hp]
Total HP => hp 112 (Leather), 148 (Wood/Clay), hp 184 (Stone), hp 208 (Iron)
Colossal Animated Object
HD 32d10(176hp), Bonus HP = Size [16] × Material = 16×2 [Leather 32hp], 16×5 [Wood/Clay +80hp], 16×8 [Stone +128hp] or 16×10 [Iron +160hp]
Total HP => hp 208 (Leather), hp 256 (Wood/Clay), hp 304 (Stone), hp 336 (Iron)

My proposed alternative Strength gives Constructs bonus HP/die would provide all Animated Objects of a given size the same bonus HP, since they all have the same Str score.

Small (Str 10=+0, HD 1d10+0, hp 5)
Medium (Str 12=+1, HD 2d10+2, hp 13)
Large (Str 16=+3, HD 4d10+12, hp 34)
Huge (Str 20=+5, HD 8d10+40, hp 84)
Gargantuan (Str 24=+7, HD 16d10+112, hp 200)
Colossal (Str 28=+9, HD 32d10+288, hp 464)

That's a lot steeper, and doesn't differentiate between objects of different materials.

Of the two, I'm now leaning towards the Size×Material approach for bonus Construct HP.

[Coridan]

James Jacobs wrote:

This is certainly worth looking into... although it's a little weird since there's no precedent for Str = HP like there is for Constitution and Charisma in the game. Further, constructs get a flat number of bonus hit points as it is and have good AC and have good damage reduction usually; not all undead have good AC and good damage reduction.

I'd rather consider revising the amount of bonus hit points constructs get, but in games I've played, fights against constructs have rarely felt like pushovers, and fights against undead usually do unless they're liches or incorporeal and the PCs don't have the tools to get through their DR.

Considering you're giving rogues (the big damage dealers) the ability to sneak attack these sorts of creatures, it's a VERY good idea to help maintain their CRs.

[Swordslinger]

Definitely a good idea.

If you can sneak attack a construct it needs that bonus HP.

[Sneaksy Dragon]

I totally agree with this idea, STR to hitpoints. (now if i could only get my DM to allow my Fighter to have that feat...)