Folklore generally has elves as slightly taller than humans, however in D&D elves have been shorter since advanced D&D.
(please note I'm talking about elves in particular when I say folklore, not the brownies, sprites, bogans, etc.)
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Elves in the Dark Sun setting were taller than humans; it was one of the interesting things that distinguished them apart from other settings, IMHO. Not to say that Dark Sun is anything like a typical setting, of course. Just saying that sometimes, it's little things like that which help make a setting more memorable ... (to this day, to me, the only good halfling is a cannibal :-))
Tolkein... The Lord of the Rings stories, which spawned the general outline of most of the type of fantasy that D&D is inspired by, described the Elves as being taller than humans... I've always disliked the "Keebler" approach to elves in previous editions. I was thrilled to see the elves taller in Pathfinder.
Tolkein... The Lord of the Rings stories, which spawned the general outline of most of the type of fantasy that D&D is inspired by, described the Elves as being taller than humans... I've always disliked the "Keebler" approach to elves in previous editions. I was thrilled to see the elves taller in Pathfinder.
Same here!
As has been pointed out, some D&D settings already had taller elves as well. Not only did Dark Sun have tall elves, but Forgotten Realms elves were, from the time of the Old Grey Boxed Set, as tall as humans.
Then again, Dragonlance sent a mixed message, since at one time there was a comment about Tanis' son being shorter than the elves because of his tainted human blood, but all of the charts for all of the rulebooks for the setting show them as "average" D&D elves in height.
And then there were the Valley Elves from Greyhawk . . .
Tall elves are old school fiction. Harkens back to when they were much more fey, sensitive to iron, definitely not friendly to humans. Two old D&D examples: first, Valley elves from Greyhawk; second, there was an alternate world that could be reached through the Demonweb that was ruled by these type elves. I always thought it'd be cool to run a campaign there.
Modern examples off the top of my head include Steve Brust's Dragaerans, Jim Butcher's fey court, and Steve Erikson's Tiste species.
I won't comment on the ears, plenty of threads out there already. :)
Edit: Darn it. Had to sign out/sign in to post, and ninja'd by KnightErrantJR.
I had forgotten the Valley Elves, but now I am having flashbacks of a teenaged DM doing "Valley Elf Talk." Oh.The.Pain.
I've always disliked the "Keebler" approach to elves in previous editions.
Agreed. Where I come from, the K-word is only ever used as a racial slur. Excessive use of it (well, that being mistaken as a Vulcan by drunken humans), is what eventually led to my choice of favored enemies... ;)
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...second, there was an alternate world that could be reached through the Demonweb that was ruled by these type elves. I always thought it'd be cool to run a campaign there.
quick history note: those elves (the "pharisees"), were lifted whole cloth from "three hearts and three lions" by poul anderson. if you wish to run a campaign there, get that book! it's out of print, so you may have to make it a quest to get a copy, but it's worth it!
furthermore, that book gave us the D&D inspiration for the troll, the gnome, the swanmay, the paladin and the paladin's mount. come to think of it, between that book, "the dying earth" by jack vance, lieber, howard and tolkien, just about everything in gygaxian d&d is accounted for...
Actually Trolls, Gnomes, and Swanmay's are also from old folklore, much older than the book you mention.
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Actually Trolls, Gnomes, and Swanmay's are also from old folklore, much older than the book you mention.
gygaxian trolls don't turn to stone (folkloric and tolkein trolls do, but d&d doesn't use folkloric and tolkien trolls.) the "trolls are skinny, somewhat rubbery, have really long noses, smell nauseatingly bad and regenerate unless immersed in fire" concept is lifted from anderson. gygaxian gnomes have little in common with folkloric gnomes (actually, kobolds, in a way, are closer), but are nearly identical with the gnome in THaTL. and, yes, swanmays exist in earlier folklore, but as almost completely magical creatures. the d&d swanmay corresponds directly with anderson's.
and, yeah, poul anderson took the names from folklore, but he made the creatures his own in his novels (in fact, the giant in three hearts and three lions is, conceptually, much more like a traditional folkloric troll than the troll in the same novel), and gygax used anderson's concepts, not folklore's, when designing those creatures for d&d.
Creative Director
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When we were deciding on the look for the Pathfinder races, we wanted humans to be sort of the "middle of the road" type race. Small was covered with dwarves and halflings and gnomes. Tall only had half-orcs. So we made half-elves and elves taller than humans. Presto! Humans are the center of the universe!
Also... I like tall elves. Makes them look more regal and mysterious and alien.
I like tall elves. Makes them look more regal and mysterious and alien.
That another Vulcan jab there JJ? ;P
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When we were deciding on the look for the Pathfinder races, we wanted humans to be sort of the "middle of the road" type race. Small was covered with dwarves and halflings and gnomes. Tall only had half-orcs. So we made half-elves and elves taller than humans. Presto! Humans are the center of the universe!
Also... I like tall elves. Makes them look more regal and mysterious and alien.
thanks for the explanation James
anyway... :D i do love Golarion's alien Elves
(Meriesiel FTW!)
Apparentlly Paizo & Wizards feel that elves aren't beuatiful if they're not tall. And they're catering to the present day generation, who's only vision of elves were the LOTRs movies. (note: they were tall but not taller than humans). Best way for middle of the road humans would be make new pc races! Don't change something that already works.
I was never a fan of DarkSun because the elves were so tall. May sound like a lame reason, but it's true.
Doesn't mean they need be only 5'. The 4e elves are a little taller than I'd like, but not too tall.
My question is - why only human looking core races? Why half-orcs and half-elves as full races? Why in 3.5 are ninjas a class and not a prestige class for assassin? They were said to be the best assassins. Why can't helmets grant a +1 or 2 AC? Almost no one wears them.
In reality, there is something worse than tall elves- renaming Aasimars Devas. Unless they're all females- bad move 4e!
Enough griping by me.
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Tall elves are old school fiction. Harkens back to when they were much more fey, sensitive to iron, definitely not friendly to humans. Two old D&D examples: first, Valley elves from Greyhawk;
Great, now I have that Valley Elf song, from the old April's Fools issue, stuck in my head. And oh, here comes Bard on the Run!
I hate my brain. And it hates me back.
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Tall elves are old school fiction. Harkens back to when they were much more fey, sensitive to iron, definitely not friendly to humans. Two old D&D examples: first, Valley elves from Greyhawk;Great, now I have that Valley Elf song, from the old April's Fools issue, stuck in my head. And oh, here comes Bard on the Run!
I hate my brain. And it hates me back.
(psst, Set: "gucci cooshee poochie" :P)
Great, now I have that Valley Elf song, from the old April's Fools issue, stuck in my head. And oh, here comes Bard on the Run!
I hate my brain. And it hates me back.
And now I've got a mental picture of Nicolas Cage with elf ears moping around stuck in mine.
He has such a gamine face as it is, even if it is masculine and now somewhat craggy!
I guess I'll always think of them as point guards and not centers.
Too true Snobi!
But with that Dex bonus elves have an excellent percentage at the free-throw line. They are almost impervious to the hack-a-Shaq tactics we see so much of.
Please give an elf a try at the #5 position for a few pre-season games. If you combine them with a half-orc at Power Forward I guarantee you'll see more points in the paint each quarter.
-Ask (who can't wait for the NBA season to start!)
Apparentlly Paizo & Wizards feel that elves aren't beuatiful if they're not tall. And they're catering to the present day generation, who's only vision of elves were the LOTRs movies. (note: they were tall but not taller than humans). Best way for middle of the road humans would be make new pc races! Don't change something that already works.
I was never a fan of DarkSun because the elves were so tall. May sound like a lame reason, but it's true.
Doesn't mean they need be only 5'. The 4e elves are a little taller than I'd like, but not too tall.
I would just like to point out that there are quite a few, by which I mean a majority, of gamers who read Lord of the Rings long, long, long before the movies. I first read them at age 11, 22 years ago, about a year before I first started playing D&D. By the time I was 14 and running my own games, I had a house rule that elves were taller than humans, because in every piece of high-fantasy literature I read, that was the case. D&D was the exception, and it took away some of the majesty of the elves.
This change is definitely not "catering to the present day generation." If anything, it's catering to an older one. Given how little Wizards seems to think of my generation of gamers based on 4e, I'm giving Paizo extra points for this one.
There were elves and goblins way before LOTR. They were small fey. But, yeh, wouldn't make great rpging races. Tolkien did alot for gaming. I guess I'm angry about everything always undergoing changes. I hate change. When you're a kid and imagine crap a certain way then grow up and still think fondly of the way things are then they're suddenly changed because a group of people felt it'd be better changing it- it stings a little.
Oh, I read LOTR too. Liked it as a kid, but got sick of it with the films. They were good but still pissed me off. Excluded some of the best stuff.
Anyhow, I can live with the damn tall elves. I'm just relieved no one messed with my favorite monstrous race- gnolls.
Anyhow, I'm sorry if I seemed to throw a tantrum. I've gamed for 24+ years now. The things that brought me to embrace D&D were the elves, gnolls, classic monsters like that goofy Rustmonster, displacer beast, Umber hulk, and the like. Rose Estes choose your own adventure books and the like. Good stuff. It's difficult to see things like elves go from 5 feet tall to 6 + feet. Humans are too middle of the road already. Oh well. (I still think another core race or two would spice things up. Something NOT too human looking - or a dragon). Wouldn't mind a 12th core class but don't know what that would be. Shadowcaster? Psionic Striker? Necromancer? Anyhow, later.
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Normally, I wouldn't care what size the elves are in any given RPG world. But considering that the Pathfinder designers have stressed how "backwards compatible" to D&D 3.5 their game is supposed to be, I find their choice of radically changing the look of one of the oldest standard player character races rather... annoying. (What, an elf PC suddenly magically grows a foot taller upon conversion?)
I imagine that people who share your opinion will simply say that elves are shorter in their games. For myself, elves have long been taller in my D&D (going back to 1980 or so, although it took me a fair while before I realised that the canonical D&D elves were in fact shorter than humans, so until then it was a house rule of which I wasn't even aware. And now, finally, my house rule makes it into print!).
In any case, it'll all be world-specific, surely?
Likewise, my Elves have always been of human height or more (except the more "standard" Drow). Elves were things of majesty and power to me as a boy, so I refuse to accept them as near-stunties. It's worth noting that Faerûnian Elves in v3.5 embrace the taller-than-human paradigm.
Likewise, my Elves have always been of human height or more (except the more "standard" Drow). Elves were things of majesty and power to me as a boy, so I refuse to accept them as near-stunties. It's worth noting that Faerûnian Elves in v3.5 embrace the taller-than-human paradigm.
Faerûnian elves in the Old Grey Boxed set embraced the taller-than-human paradigm. So that's been since 1987.
You have me nailed there, sir! Then again, my Dark Elves are militaristic, patriarchal and led by the LE "paladin" god of revenge :)
