I'm right besides those who'd like to see the Paladin back to his 2E glory... however, let's not forget that, on the transition to 3E, the d20 system eliminated the different XP/level progression per class as well as classes' attribute requirements, which means that no class should be better than the rest of its category (i.e the Monk can't be notoriously better than the Ranger or Barbarian, Sorcerers must not be able to eclipse Wizards, etc).
If we go back to the classes pre-3E, originall concept, the Cleric was a holy warrior, but the Paladin was THE holy warrior. Conceptually, one class is superior by hierarchy... something that CAN'T BE in d20, something which leave us with three options:
1) Nerf the Paladin: The choice that was officially taken.
2) Get rid of the Paladin: Why not? I mean, as they are now, both the Cleric and the Paladin are redundant, and the Cleric does a way better job at everything the Paladin does.
3) Turn the Paladin into a Prestige Class: Now THIS is the exception to d20's power restrictions. PrC's have requisites solicitors must acomplish first, and grant benefits you can't find elsewhere.
Having explained my motivations, here's my proposal, a 10-levels PrC. Please take your time to read each class feature carefully, as while the names may be familiar, I changed most of them.
MUCHKIN ALERT: Magic-hater and otherwise more conservative players and GMs will most likely find the following text offensive. You have been warned.
Paladin (Prestige Class)
Requisites:
- Alignment: Lawful Good.
- Base Attack: +6.
- Skills: Diplomacy: 5 ranks, Intimidate: 5 ranks, Sense Motive: 5 ranks.
- Feats: Iron Will, Leadership.
- Traits: Birthmark. (( Paladins are suposed to be an exclusive, small group. Few and far between))
- Special: Channel Positive Energy, must worship a Lawful Good deity ((Other deities may have divine champions of their own, but they wouldn't be as strong. Why? Because Lawful Good is the most restrictive alignment, and the hardest to roleplay properly. LG is the proverbial long, narrow path, and should be rewarded accordingly))
- Special: The character must have been washed of sin recently via the Atonement spell. (( This is part of real-life old rites, a future Knight received a bath that washed all sin from his body the night prior to being ordained... and yes, requires finding a Cleric of high enough level for the spell, adding to the difficulty)).
Class Skills:
The Paladin’s class skills are Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (nobility), Knowledge (religion), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive and Spellcraft.
Class Features:
All of the Following are class Features of the Paladin.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all types of armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
Base Attack Bonus: As Fighter.
Saving Throws: As Fighter.
Spells: At level 1, and ever odd-numbered level after that, the Paladin gains the ability to cast divine spells as if he had advanced a level in his Cleric class. He doesn’t gain any other Cleric class abilities like Domain Powers, however.
Channeler (Su): A Paladin’s class level is combined with previous Cleric levels for evaluating his effective level when channeling positive energy.
Aura of Good (Su): A Paladin’s aura of good (see Detect Evil spell) is equal to his Character level.
Aura of Faith (Su): Any weapon in the hands of a Paladin is considered Holy as long as the Paladin is holding it.
Deific Weapon (ex): When using his deity’s weapon, a Paladin gains bonuses to his attack rolls as noted on the level-progression table. He gains +1 at level one, plus another +1 at levels 3, 6, and 9.
Divine Grace (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a Paladin receives a permanent bonus to all saving throws equal to his Charisma modifier.
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a Paladin becomes immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of the Paladin gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects.
Smite Evil (Su): Beginning at 4th level, a Paladin can channel his deity’s righteous anger through his weapon, potentially destroying his target. Evil targets struck by a Smite Evil attack must succeed a Fort save DC 10 + the Paladin’s Charisma modifier + Paladin level or die/be destroyed. Attempts that miss on the attack roll don’t use up the Smite Evil attack for the day. The Paladin gets an additional Smite Evil per day at levels 7 and 10. (( Yes, a Death Attack, it's suposed to be SMITE Evil, not "Mildly Inconvenience Evil" ))
Paladin Mount (Su): Beginning at 5th level, a Paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin), but Paladins from different regions, races, and deities have different mounts at GMs discretion.
Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call his mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for 2 hours per paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service.
Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.
Should the paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for 30 days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls. (( Sorry about Mount's missing progression table as well... hard to do with the format here, just abreviate it to five levels))
Aura of Resolve (Su): At 6th level, a Paladin is immune to charm spells and spell-like abilities. Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against charm effects.
Aura of Righteousness (Su): At 8th level, a Paladin gains Spell Resistance (SR) of 10 + the Paladin’s Character level. Whatsmore, targets dealt damage in combat by the Paladin are affected by a targeted Dispel Magic, affecting the lowest level spell effect active on the target. The caster level for this ability is equal to the Paladin’s Character level.
Holy Champion (Su): At 10th level, a Paladin becomes a conduit for the power of his god. His DR increases to 10/-. In addition, whenever he channels positive energy, he channels the maximum possible amount.
Paladin Code of Conduct
A Paladin will always protect the innocent and do what’s best for the greater good. This paragraph is the most important in the code, and when two or more paragraphs come into conflict due to circumstances, this one’s the Paladin’s bottom line. A Paladin won’t accept the surrender pleas of a murdering aristocrat knowing he’ll bribe his way back home in time for dinner (lest he becomes guilty by omission of any further deaths and suffering that ensue after he’s back in the streets).
A Paladin will honor his deity and will never do anything that would dishonor his deity’s name. Different deities, however, have different criteria of what behaviors they consider ‘dishonoring’. Likewise, Golarion is a high-fantasy world free of the influence of real life controlling, mysoginistic religions. Sex is just one of many things which are NOT a sin in this world, regardless of alignment.
A Paladin can never have more than 10 magical items. These items limited to one suit of armor, one shield, four weapons, and four others.
A Paladin honors the land that saw him born, as well as any foreign land he is visiting. This includes respecting authorities, local customs and people. Note that while different places have different customs, paragraph one (protect the innocent) still has priority, and a Paladin won’t hesitate in dethroning a tyrant or protecting an innocent from being brutalized if it is in his power.
A Paladin must tithe at least 25% (rounded up) of his share of treasure to the local church (provided it’s a good-aligned church) or similar worthy cause. In addition, he can’t keep any excess wealth past his legitimate needs. A Paladin’s isn’t a beggar however, he is entitled to keep enough for comfortable living/traveling expenses.
A Paladin will not let any evil deed go unpunished as long as it is in his power to do something about it. While dethroning an evil tyrant or Great Wyrm will still likely be beyond his abilities, he won’t stand still while more localized acts of injustice happen.
A Paladin won’t knowingly associate with evil characters unless he has the means of keeping their behavior in check as long as said association lasts, lest he becomes guilty by association of whatever crimes they commit. Likewise, a Paladin will only take into his service henchmen and hirelings of Lawful Good alignment.
Ex Paladins
A Paladin who strays from the road by taking levels in other character or prestige classes retains his Paladin class abilities and spells, but can no longer gain more levels as a Paladin.
A Paladin who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all divine spells and abilities (including those from his Cleric class, being a Paladin means your deity is watching closely and holding you to higher standards). He may not progress any farther in levels as a Paladin. He regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
Insert flames after the dotted line
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I like this idea. I have seen it attempted before, back when 3.0 came out. But this is very well thought out. I applaud it.
I would also like to see the Bard beomce a prestige class as well. How it went from 2.0 requiring 3 class pre-req to 3.0 1st level admission.. I dunno. I'd like to see you work on the Bard as well.
#1 Won't Happen. I'm not saying it shouldn't, I don't care one way or the other, I'm saying it won't. Paizo staff have repeatedly made it clear the PHB is going to have the same 11 core classes that the PHB has
#2 PrCs shouldn't be an excuse to make broken stuff. The core PrCs are generally weaker than most of the 11 base classes and none of them are as powerful as the cleric. Anything that they could get from a PrC should be fair game to a base class.
#3 Jason has expressly made efforts to make the base classes 'as desirable' as PrCs so I suspect he feels more or less as I do.
#4 Please delete the duplicate thread you posted. The delete button appears in the upper right when you are viewing the post.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I would also like to see the Bard beomce a prestige class as well. How it went from 2.0 requiring 3 class pre-req to 3.0 1st level admission.. I dunno. I'd like to see you work on the Bard as well.
1st Edition Bards were the fighter-thief-druid agglomeration. 2nd Edition Bards were a base class.
In my quirky home campaign, the Paladin is a prestige class, because the strict alignment requirement is something I want the PC, and the player, to consider carefully. Typically, the would-be paladin starts out life as a fighter or ranger, under the tutelage of a cleric "confessor", who regularly counsels the character and explains what a career as a paladin requires.
But this is a quirky home campaign. Jason has to be thinking about bigger issues, and surely there are low-level paladins wandering about in some modules or another.
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Class Skills:
The Paladin’s class skills are Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (nobility), Knowledge (religion), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive and Spellcraft.
you forgot the number of skill per level, knowing you and considering the classes that would more easily arrive to this prestige class my take is that it would be 2 skill points + int mod
i am right?
Prestige Paladin
Thank you! I've been using the OGL Prestige Paladin and Prestige Ranger all through 3.5. I've also made tentative "Pathfinderized" versions, which I'll be happy to post if anyone is interested. It won't appear in the Pathfinder game for obvious reasons, but for those willing to houserule, it's a nice addition.
is that basically the one from Unearthed Arcana?
The same; the parts of Unearthed Arcana that were OGL were added to the on-line System Reference Documents.
Except for the Smite Evil (which does no extra damage on a Fail), I much prefer Dogberts to the UA/SRD PrC Pally.
Yes, I agree that Dogbert did a bang-up job with it.
KnightErrantJR, is that basically the one from Unearthed Arcana? I played one in SCAP, so I'm just curious :)
The very same. I'm not advocating one over the other, but in actuality, I've discussed this with some players and other posters on other boards, and I would have no problem allowing both the standard class paladin and the PrC paladin in a game, but no one has ever played one.
This is a 10-level prestige class rather than UA's 15-level prestigious class, correct?
I like what I see on the surface. I think the method of handling the casting is much-needed, and I applaud the way you've handled the role-playing aspects of the requirements and code.
My only qualm is that the BAB requirement may be too high considering that the player must also get a level of Cleric in there too (which will reduce their BAB a bit at higher levels compared to the Fighter or standard Paladin). Of course, that might also be necessary to keep the class abilities on-track for approximating the standard Paladin level...
Lastly, I'm not wild about requiring feats that simply boost another stat (i.e. Iron Will). Instead, You could list the Will save bonus as +6 (2 from 6 fighter levels, 2 from 1 cleric level, 2 from feat OR enough levels of cleric & fighter to achieve the BAB and Will requirements, etc.). That would give players some added flexibility on how they enter such a difficult class. Perhaps they were a cleric called to more direct action, rather than a fighter called to a more holy one.
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Sorry no, I'm not a big fan of just coming and saying no, but this is an instance where the only thing I feel is needed is no, no, no, no, not that you're PrC isn't well balanced, but I'm not even going to look because I am so opposed to the idea. I love the paladin as a base class. I just want him to be a good option as a base class. Once again sorry to come in and just crap on the discussion, but no.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Sorry no, I'm not a big fan of just coming and saying no, but no, no, no, no, I am so opposed to the idea. ... no.
Apparently, we've hit a nerve.
Is it just the history of the game that informs your position, LKL, or is there something specific about 1st-Level Paladins in your world?
I ask because, by my interpretation of "prestige class", the Paladin is a textbook example of the kind of niche a good prestige class should fill.
Do you feel just as strongly against a 4th-Level Fighter multi-classing into the Paladin class?
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Sorry no, I'm not a big fan of just coming and saying no, but no, no, no, no, I am so opposed to the idea. ... no.Apparently, we've hit a nerve.
Is it just the history of the game that informs your position, LKL, or is there something specific about 1st-Level Paladins in your world?
I ask because, by my interpretation of "prestige class", the Paladin is a textbook example of the kind of niche a good prestige class should fill.
Do you feel just as strongly against a 4th-Level Fighter multi-classing into the Paladin class?
Not 3.5's version of the paladin, but I love level 1-5 (really after level 5 in DnD you surpass "normal" human fantasy, normal human fantasy is what I love). Also as a general point in my life unless I'm DMing (and I don't ever run DMPCs) most campaigns fall apart due to the troubles of adult life and scheduling around level 4 (I always like to start campaigns at level 1). So if the paladin was a PrC I'd never be a paladin :( and yes I know I myself have argued that you could roleplay a fighter as a paladin and actually be better than the paladin class, but that doesn't mean I want to do it.
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Not 3.5's version of the paladin, but I love level 1-5 (really after level 5 in DnD you surpass "normal" human fantasy, normal human fantasy is what I love). Also as a general point in my life unless I'm DMing (and I don't ever run DMPCs) most campaigns fall apart due to the troubles of adult life and scheduling around level 4 (I always like to start campaigns at level 1). So if the paladin was a PrC I'd never be a paladin :( and yes I know I myself have argued that you could roleplay a fighter as a paladin and actually be better than the paladin class, but that doesn't mean I want to do it.
i do understand your feelings
Paladin is one of my favorite clases since 2nd edition, i just feel that since 3.x they have... well... debased the class, making it less than what it once was...i myself thought that Paladin would be a great Prestigue class, because i do believe that the Paladin should be someone special, not just rank and file as it feels right now.
The frst time i saw the Paladin as a "prestigue class" was in Warcraft RPG (when they sued more 3.0 rules and not the monte cook idea of classes but the MMORPG feeling in everything else) and i liked the concept.
i myself don't run to many high level adventures, and i would not exagerate if i say i have never had played myself ormastered to others a character highter than level 9 in DnD in general (Alternity is another different matter)
still i find the concept of this Paladin a worthy cause to follow up, i know my cleric would be a good one (and yes we already calculated that a 2 level Cleric, 5 level fighter would be a monstruous paladin with the benefits to the weapon as they are)
Already tryingto convince my DM tolet me use it in our compaing, maybe we will need to changethe name to "Paragon" since we already have a paladin in play.
Sorry no, I'm not a big fan of just coming and saying no, but this is an instance where the only thing I feel is needed is no, no, no, no, not that you're PrC isn't well balanced, but I'm not even going to look because I am so opposed to the idea. I love the paladin as a base class. I just want him to be a good option as a base class. Once again sorry to come in and just crap on the discussion, but no.
I guess it makes sense that a guy whose alias is lkl is a big fan of the paladin. LKL, got some spare time?
Dur, I not no how intermathingie wurk, me luv to help, but me hav kmputer skills of drti bar washrag.
Actually, I have some stuff which doesn't require l33t 'puter ski11z. If nothing else at some point (fairly soon) I will need someone to test it. email me if you are innerested "mtbogre at that gmail dut com place.
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I am already considering a paladin of Erastil, so good job. I agree with the BAB requirement, less so for the feat requirements. But that's just my preferences, and a prestige class shouldn't be full of 'I was gonna take those feats anyway' requirements.
i believe the feats requierements are due to 2 facts... Paladins are icons of their faith, mover of hearts so Ledership is not only natural BUT expected.
Iron Will... i see the paladin as willful enough to resist a lot of messing with his head... butithink he will change this for a Will requisite (not sure it will be as high as +6... that is the top most for the fighter), i was talking with him yesterday, he is just diggesting the comments and making time for an answer... that or being lazy and playing CoH... anyway i will put some presure on him :D
PS: i want my prestigue class nice an ready for when i hit 9th level :P
TriOmegaZero and the rest around talking about that...
thinking of Erastil as having paladins... considering the favored weapon of Erastil is the bow... would you allow a "Ranged Smite Evil"?
we talked yesterday and agreed that if it was the god's favored weapon, i will run along with it... what does the rest say?
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I am already considering a paladin of Erastil, so good job. I agree with the BAB requirement, less so for the feat requirements. But that's just my preferences, and a prestige class shouldn't be full of 'I was gonna take those feats anyway' requirements.i believe the feats requierements are due to 2 facts... Paladins are icons of their faith, mover of hearts so Ledership is not only natural BUT expected.
Iron Will... i see the paladin as willful enough to resist a lot of messing with his head... butithink he will change this for a Will requisite (not sure it will be as high as +6... that is the top most for the fighter), i was talking with him yesterday, he is just diggesting the comments and making time for an answer... that or being lazy and playing CoH... anyway i will put some presure on him :D
PS: i want my prestigue class nice an ready for when i hit 9th level :P
TriOmegaZero and the rest around talking about that...
thinking of Erastil as having paladins... considering the favored weapon of Erastil is the bow... would you allow a "Ranged Smite Evil"?we talked yesterday and agreed that if it was the god's favored weapon, i will run along with it... what does the rest say?
In Eberron, the Silver Flame's favored weapon is a long bow. Assuming it's not been 4Edited.
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TriOmegaZero and the rest around talking about that...
thinking of Erastil as having paladins... considering the favored weapon of Erastil is the bow... would you allow a "Ranged Smite Evil"?we talked yesterday and agreed that if it was the god's favored weapon, i will run along with it... what does the rest say?
Being that elves have a substitution level for it, and I recall there being a feat for it too, yes. I actually used it for my elf paladin.
And I agree with your view, I just think paladins get few enough feats as is.
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In Eberron, the Silver Flame's favored weapon is a long bow. Assuming it's not been 4Edited.
meh
still we can always use the 3.5 version :Pok we have Erastil and Silver Flame
so anyone would say YES to let them use Smite Evil with their god's favored weapon, without having them breaking their bow in the evil one's head?
Being that elves have a substitution level for it, and I recall there being a feat for it too, yes. I actually used it for my elf paladin.
And I agree with your view, I just think paladins get few enough feats as is.
definitively :S
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I would argue no, on the ranged smite evil.
For one, Paladins don't necessarily need to declare a deity, unles they want to gain a celestrial spirit in their weapon at 5th Level.
If they were required to declare a patron deity, and if we were to restrict smite evil so that it only applied to attacks with the deity's favored weapon, then, sure.
But a Paladin already gets:
Once per day, a paladin may attempt
to smite evil with one normal melee attack. attack. She adds
her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals
1 extra point of damage per paladin level.
So, if we allow a Paladin of Erastil to smite evil with all melee weapons and also with bows, and we don't have any corresponding limitations or disadvantages, I think that would be unfair to all those Paladins of, say Pharasma.
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I would argue no, on the ranged smite evil.
For one, Paladins don't necessarily need to declare a deity, unles they want to gain a celestrial spirit in their weapon at 5th Level.
If they were required to declare a patron deity, and if we were to restrict smite evil so that it only applied to attacks with the deity's favored weapon, then, sure.
But a Paladin already gets:
So, if we allow a Paladin of Erastil to smite evil with all melee weapons and also with bows, and we don't have any corresponding limitations or disadvantages, I think that would be unfair to all those Paladins of, say Pharasma.Once per day, a paladin may attempt
to smite evil with one normal melee attack. attack. She adds
her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals
1 extra point of damage per paladin level.
How about limiting their smites to only ranged but they do not provoke aoo's while doing so?
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But a Paladin already gets:
So, if we allow a Paladin of Erastil to smite evil with all melee weapons and also with bows, and we don't have any corresponding limitations or disadvantages, I think that would be unfair to all those Paladins of, say Pharasma.Once per day, a paladin may attempt
to smite evil with one normal melee attack. attack. She adds
her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals
1 extra point of damage per paladin level.
1) its already restricted to ONCE per day... meaning he will only use it once
2nd Pharasma is Neutral... she doesn't have paladins, as the rules are working right now Paladins come only from LG, LN and NG deities
but i get the idea, Paladins from Abadar, Iomedae, etc. would only be able to use it up close... again, just once per day
considering both would have very different set of feats and attibutes, the one of Erastil going for dex and rangedfeats, while the others for strenght and melee feats i would say its would be the same... they just use it where they will be more useful
instead if you have a paladin from Erastil... which for Dogma is supposed to use the bow as prefered weapon (i would prefer paladins as clerics to get a god, i don't like godless clerics or paladins... none at all) if he prepares himself to use such weapon... then he will be in disadvantage at the moment of smiting...
why the Paladin should be just melee or mounted fighter? (while i recall mounted combat is not that common on many campaigns)
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Hello, Montalve. I really appreciate your taking the time to seriously address my concerns.
I see where you're coming from, but I'd like to address a few oof your notes.
[1) its already restricted to ONCE per day... meaning he will only use it once
The Paladin gets more uses of smite evil at 4th and higher levels, and there's likely to be a feat to get more uses per day, as well.
[2nd Pharasma is Neutral... she doesn't have paladins, as the rules are working right now Paladins come only from LG, LN and NG deities
I apologize for my ignorance. I tried to find thisrule, and failed. I know that clerics need to be only one step away from their deity, but I was unable to find a similar restriction on paladins. I'd appreciate it if you could point me towards that information.
[but I get the idea, Paladins from Abadar, Iomedae, etc. would only be able to use it up close... again, just once per day.
Considering both would have very different set of feats and attibutes, the one of Erastil going for dex and ranged feats, while the others for strenght and melee feats I would say its would be the same... they just use it where they will be more useful.
With respect, there are all sorts of reasons for taking Erastil as a patron deity, and favored weapon might well be not be a consideration. It's not like Paladins (particularly non-human Paladins) get a lot of feats anyways, so I think an archer-Paladin is going to be a very limiting build. The class seems built for mounted combat first and foremost, and toe-to-toe-with-evil beyond that. (Hence, smite evil.)
(instead if you have a paladin from Erastil... which for dogma is supposed to use the bow as prefered weapon (I would prefer paladins as clerics to get a god, i don't like godless clerics or paladins... none at all) if he prepares himself to use such weapon... then he will be in disadvantage at the moment of smiting...
Why should the Paladin be just a melee or mounted fighter? (while I recall mounted combat is not that common in many campaigns)
Pathfinder never comes right out and says it, but there are strong implications that clerics do need to worship one of the Golarion gods to get most of their powers. (For example, clerics of Aroden were Shut Down in ways that they wouldn't be if that had happened in Greyhawk or, especially, Eberron.)
I feel that the Paladin doesn't fit into every gaming group. The sleazy grave-robbing troupe, the happy pawns of Asmodeus, and the we-never-adventure-outside group, are all parties where the Paladin doesn't do well, particularly if she takes a good chunk of Ride skill and mounted combat feats.
The skills of a paladin of Erastil are versatile, rather than stacking: her smite evil works with melee weapons, and her bow is her deity's favored weapon. A monk devoted to Erastil is in the same situation, and I wouldn't allow flurry of blows with a bow in that case, either.
Having said all of this, your mileage varies. I'm very glad you explained your position.
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Hello, Montalve. I really appreciate your taking the time to seriously address my concerns.
I see where you're coming from, but I'd like to address a few oof your notes.
The Paladin gets more uses of smite evil at 4th and higher levels, and there's likely to be a feat to get more uses per day, as well.
Hello Chris, i understand your positionijust see a few things different, lets see if we canget a middle ground :)
you are right they get more smite evils, and a feat could bring it further up, but still the times it can be usded and the benefits it originally gives are little enought that we instead of smite evil, it should be called "annoy evil a bit" (sorry for the sarcasm, a Dogbert mentioned it and it was left in the back of my skull when we discussed smite evil)... for a last hit it might be decisive... but adding the character's cha mod to the damage would be even if maximised to such a level no more than +5 (in 4th level that damages issoaked easily by enemies) to the detriment of many other attributes
I apologize for my ignorance. I tried to find thisrule, and failed. I know that clerics need to be only one step away from their deity, but I was unable to find a similar restriction on paladins. I'd appreciate it if you could point me towards that information.
no ignorance at all...
unfortunately is not mentioned neither in the rules of Pathfinder RPG Beta or in the SRD... i don't remember right now where its mentioned, i promise to look for it, i do believe that its mentioned that as the cleric must be one step away from its deity so should be the Paladin, but i promise to look fot it (cof taking 5 minutes at job for this...). one thing that i remember is that in Forgotten Realms is mentioned that the only CG deity that has (or ad after 4e) was Sune... everyother came mostly from LG and NG deities.Also in part it was refering to the prestigue class above.
With respect, there are all sorts of reasons for taking Erastil as a patron deity, and favored weapon might well be not be a consideration. It's not like Paladins (particularly non-human Paladins) get a lot of feats anyways, so I think an archer-Paladin is going to be a very limiting build. The class seems built for mounted combat first and foremost, and toe-to-toe-with-evil beyond that. (Hence, smite evil.)
you are right the Paladin is niched and cliched as mounted knight... but it was because its interpretation from Older Edition came from the Palace Knights of Charlemagnus (not sure if its spelled like that in english)... even then... remember there are mounted archers... the mongols of Genghis Khan and the Huns of Atila depended on them... and they were the fastest and most successful conquerors... ok... they never had ir for too long, but that is another matter.
and while the clerics are the missioners and icons of their gods... the paladin is the champion of the same good gods... why a Ioemdae's paladin should be identically the same as an Erasthil's Paladin, they not only champion good causes, but their deities...
Pathfinder never comes right out and says it, but there are strong implications that clerics do need to worship one of the Golarion gods to get most of their powers. (For example, clerics of Aroden were Shut Down in ways that they wouldn't be if that had happened in Greyhawk or, especially, Eberron.)
since i have not played Eberron i can give an opinion on how their religions work... but settings that when theyhave lots their gods their clerics (and i suppose their paldins) have lots theirs are: Midnight, Fogotten Realms (they usually get another one after the old one dies, so they got them back), Golarion (you already mentioned it), and i think it happened in Dragonlance... my apologies i don't know that last to well, nor Greyhawk
I feel that the Paladin doesn't fit into every gaming group. The sleazy grave-robbing troupe, the happy pawns of Asmodeus, and the we-never-adventure-outside group, are all parties where the Paladin doesn't do well, particularly if she takes a good chunk of Ride skill and mounted combat feats.
The skills of a paladin of Erastil are versatile, rather than stacking: her smite evil works with melee weapons, and her bow is her deity's favored weapon. A monk devoted to Erastil is in the same situation, and I wouldn't allow flurry of blows with a bow in that case, either.
Having said all of this, your mileage varies. I'm very glad you explained your position.
i understand your point... even then monks are not religious devoted or favored as are clerics and paladins, that is whyi thought of having the smite evil be useful for a ranged paladin.
after you someone (sorry marty i don't remember the full nick) mentioned that it would be less honorable a ranged attack than melee combat where a paladin would meet their enemies strenght versus strenght...
still i see the possibility of camp full of creatures of darkness, and their commander far away... while one paladin tries tos trive to arrive by land against it, combating enemies one by one... i can see a ranged paladin shooting from far away, bronging down the main commander and causing enough distraction for the restof the partyor the army to survive for another battle...
as someone mentioned... different challenges requiere different tools.
also Chris, you are right... a Paladin as a few other classes are not apt for every style of campaign, but as a core class it should be closer to it... that is another reason we offer it as a prestigue class
the paladin should be special... its actual incarnation... doesn't feel like that at all. but a shadow of what it once was.
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UPDATE ALERT: A REVISED VERSION OF THE BETA PALADIN HAS BEEN POSTED BY JASON ON THIS THREAD.
Check it out, and save yourselves debating changes that have already occurred!
Paladin PrC, while a decent idea, is simply not viable in a game that has keeping all the core classes as one of its stated design goals.