And as has been said before, "x = y + 1" is the same thing as "y = x - 1". Not idiotic.Yes, x=y+1 is the same as x-1=y. However, we're not dealing with y+1, here. It isn't at all true when you're dealing with a more complex equation such as "can my 10th level wizard survive that 10d6 fireball headed his way?". Assuming 10 con, he can (35 hp vs 35 average damage) if he doesn't get a +1 bonus to his hp - but he cannot (25 hp vs 35 average damage) if he gets a -1 penalty.
The argument is idiotic. You're trying, and failing miserably, to apply a principle that only works in a vacuum to a situation with literally thousands of variables. Not getting a bonus is not the same as getting a penalty, and I'll keep saying it until people stop slamming their heads into the brick wall of facts.
ahem..an elf wizard does not get more hp than a half orc wizard.
The elf wizard with 10 con gets +1 hp per level for the racial bonus of taking that class.The half orc wizard gets +2 to con, which gives him a 12 and thereby gives him the same +1hp per level.
The elf does get more skill points, but He's also 100 years older than the half orc. that ought to be worth something.
Ah, so now we're back to the idiotic "not getting a bonus is the same as getting a penalty" argument.
It's not true. Stop lying to yourself. A Half-Orc Wizard is no worse off in Pathfinder than it is in 3.5. It is in no way being penalized.
Sorry, but I disagree.
If HP are something to be desirable, then not being awarded extra HP is a handicap. Whether a handicap is a penalty is a matter of semantics.
Of course, the pathfinder character may not be penalized compared to 3.5, but those are two distinct (yet very similar) systems. Pathfinder characters need to be compared to other pathfinder characters, not 3.5.
Similarly, a rogue receive less HP than a fighter (because of the class hit dice). Having less HP is one of the rogue's handicap when compared to a fighter. The rogue has other stuff to balance this out, so the two remain even.
One of the problems I have with the favored class bonuses is that there are no actual benefits to balance out this handicap, not even in fluff. To a certain extent, you are further handicapped by fluff if you do not take the favored class deal, as your Dwarven Barbarian may be shun by his peers for his undisciplined fighting style etc.
You may disagree and I would respect that, but this is all but idiotic...
'findel
ahem..an elf wizard does not get more hp than a half orc wizard.
The elf wizard with 10 con gets +1 hp per level for the racial bonus of taking that class.The half orc wizard gets +2 to con, which gives him a 12 and thereby gives him the same +1hp per level.
The elf does get more skill points, but He's also 100 years older than the half orc. that ought to be worth something.
Please cite where I even mentioned races in the post you quoted, please. Race was utterly irrelevant to what I posted. Two wizard characters, both level 10 and with 10 constitution, one being "penalized" by not having a bonus, and the other being actually penalized by taking -1 per level, were my comparison. Racial modifiers had nothing to do with it, so I didn't even name the races. For pedantry's sake, we'll call both wizards halflings - no con penalty, no con bonus, no wizard-as-favored-class.
Sorry, but I disagree.
If HP are something to be desirable, then not being awarded extra HP is a handicap. Whether a handicap is a penalty is a matter of semantics.
Are you handicapped if another player receives bonus experience for roleplaying exceptionally well? Are you handicapped if another player receives a magic item? Are you handicapped if another player get a racial bonus that only applies to certain classes?
Are you handicapped if another player receives bonus experience for roleplaying exceptionally well? Are you handicapped if another player receives a magic item?Sorry, but I disagree.
If HP are something to be desirable, then not being awarded extra HP is a handicap. Whether a handicap is a penalty is a matter of semantics.
In a way, yes...
A character that is of lower level or that is under-equipped possess a handicap compared to a character of higher level/better equipped. The XP chart already attempts to correct XP unbalance, allowing lower level characters to level-up at a faster rate than higher level characters. As for the equipment, one only hope that his DM will be fair on the long run.
Obviously, a character's handicap is rarely set against another player, but against the DM's challenges, encounters and adventure. For all we know, being of lower level, being ill equipped, having less HP or less skill points may not even be handicapping in that particular adventure.
But unlike 3.5, pathfinder favored class rules result in a quantified difference between two characters (so it was in 3.5, but the conditions necessary to receive the XP penalties were easy to avoid no matter what was your character concept). Differences between characters often result in one character overdoing the others, or one of them under-performing. Again, whether you see one a as being favored or one being handicapped is a matter of semantics, the difference remains the same. these differences (created by a character concept on top of it!) create tensions and a feeling of unfairness, which does not sit well with me.
Are you handicapped if another player get a racial bonus that only applies to certain classes?
As far as I'm concerned, that is reason enough not to need the present mechanics of favored class, as the races naturally gravitate toward some classes. Then again, your millage may vary...
'findel
Obviously, a character's handicap is rarely set against another player, but against the DM's challenges, encounters and adventure. For all we know, being of lower level, being ill equipped, having less HP or less skill points may not even be handicapping in that particular adventure.
This is exactly the point. Not having a favored class bonus is the baseline by which encounters, and thus adventures, are designed. The adventure designers cannot assume that your fighters are dwarves or humans (especially obvious since there ARE NO ADVENTURES that are designed for Pathfinder right now, which means nobody could possibly have designed any of them assuming the players have those bonus hit points ... and Pathfinder uses the exact same CR/EL system as 3.5, so there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to expect things to change in that regard), so they're forced to assume that they DON'T have that extra hit point per level and design things that way. Thus, you are not handicapped by not receiving a favored class bonus.
Not idiotic if you're actually talking about mathematics. A stellarly bad argument considering the PCs are not in competition playing a zero-sum game with each other. Paying Paul, in the case of giving out a benefit for a favored class, does not actually steal from Peter a whit.
And as has been said before, "x = y + 1" is the same thing as "y = x - 1". Not idiotic.
The whole foundation of the D20 game system is based in mathematics. You can't simply hand-wave mathematics out of the door. And keep in mind that even if the PCs aren't playing a zero-sum game against each other (and that isn't true in necessarily every case, depending on the alignment of the party members), they are still likely to be running across NPC opponents that may have the benefit of gaining these extra HP/Skill Points. Although it is not likely, it is possible that their lack of HP/Skill Points compared to their opponents could be the deciding factor as to whether they survive an encounter or not.
Are you handicapped if another player receives bonus experience for roleplaying exceptionally well?]
No, because they earned it fairly through a display of skill and talent. It wasn't just handed to them because someone watched Lord Of The Rings and thought that every Elf should be a Wizard or a Ranger.
Are you handicapped if another player receives a magic item?
No. You're likely to either be 1) receiving a magical item at the same time or 2) you'll be earmarked to receive a magical item from party treasure in the future. And any magical item in the hands of the party increases their overall chance for future success.
But even if you're in an evil game where might makes right, that new magical sword of yours is only as good as long as you are awake and your back isn't turned.
And unlike the bonus HP/Skill Points that are gained from playing a Favored Class, you always have the opportunity to obtain new magical items. If you don't get the Favored Class Points, there's no other way to get them. Mind you, you can get more HP/Skill Points via other means, but they won't be Favored Class Points.
Are you handicapped if another player get a racial bonus that only applies to certain classes?
Possibly, depending on the race/class combo that you have chosen. This is why I believe that Racial Traits are sufficient to steer players into playing certain kinds of race/class combos.
But it's still different from the mechanics of (not) gaining extra HP/Skill Points from taking a certain race/class combo. If you play a Dwarven Wizard, at least you're getting something for your troubles, even if those abilities aren't optimal for power gaming.
But if we doled out Racial Traits like we did Favored Class Points, we'd be looking at a situation where players that made Favored Class Characters received all of their listed Racial Traits, while those that did not do so don't get any Racial Traits at all. Sorry, Elven Monk - we don't have any ability score modifiers or special abilities for you.
The whole foundation of the D20 game system is based in mathematics. You can't simply hand-wave mathematics out of the door. And keep in mind that even if the PCs aren't playing a zero-sum game against each other (and that isn't true in necessarily every case, depending on the alignment of the party members), they are still likely to be running across NPC opponents that may have the benefit of gaining these extra HP/Skill Points. Although it is not likely, it is possible that their lack of HP/Skill Points compared to their opponents could be the deciding factor as to whether they survive an encounter or not.Not idiotic if you're actually talking about mathematics. A stellarly bad argument considering the PCs are not in competition playing a zero-sum game with each other. Paying Paul, in the case of giving out a benefit for a favored class, does not actually steal from Peter a whit.
And as has been said before, "x = y + 1" is the same thing as "y = x - 1". Not idiotic.
Just because math is involved that doesn't mean that it's appropriate to algebraically move any term to either side of the equation.
And as far as NPCs with the bonuses, DMs have plenty of leeway in designing any sort of NPC character they want, opening the door to a tremendous variety of small advantages over an individual PC. Imagine rolling the stats and doing really well. That could generate +1 hp or sp per level quite easily, all entirely uncompensated to the PC opposite. That's the nature of variation. So exactly what the problem is, in this case, I'm not seeing.
Just because math is involved that doesn't mean that it's appropriate to algebraically move any term to either side of the equation.
And as far as NPCs with the bonuses, DMs have plenty of leeway in designing any sort of NPC character they want, opening the door to a tremendous variety of small advantages over an individual PC. Imagine rolling the stats and doing really well. That could generate +1 hp or sp per level quite easily, all entirely uncompensated to the PC opposite. That's the nature of variation. So exactly what the problem is, in this case, I'm not seeing.
Thank God someone else understands.
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The argument is idiotic. You're trying, and failing miserably, to apply a principle that only works in a vacuum to a situation with literally thousands of variables. Not getting a bonus is not the same as getting a penalty, and I'll keep saying it until people stop slamming their heads into the brick wall of facts.
They are actually not "trying", they are, and they are not "failing" at all, they are completely succeeding. Unless you are talking about a definition of penulty in some other context besides Logic, Mathmatics, Science, Economics, or you know, common sense.
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Additionally, this topic has 360+ replies. In like 4 days or so there have been over 40 resposes since the last time I looked. What more proof do you need to see that there are a lot of people that DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS, regardless of the fact that YOU or YOUR GROUP do not. It does not matter "which side" has the majority, is "right", or whatever. There is a problem, besides the rediculous name calling and arguing over the definition of penulty. I remember seeing a lot of attempts to solve the problem by the people that did not like it, and little from the other side, besides scorn.
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The argument is idiotic. You're trying, and failing miserably, to apply a principle that only works in a vacuum to a situation with literally thousands of variables. Not getting a bonus is not the same as getting a penalty, and I'll keep saying it until people stop slamming their heads into the brick wall of facts.They are actually not "trying", they are, and they are not "failing" at all, they are completely succeeding. Unless you are talking about a definition of penulty in some other context besides Logic, Mathmatics, Science, Economics, or you know, common sense.
Balderdash and piffle. This is only true if a Fighter is being penalised for not being able to cast spells, or a Wizard for having, on average, fewer hit points than the Barbarian. In short it isn't. Not all characters will be identical, even if they have identical stats.
One player choosing to conform to racial norms and being rewarded is not a penalty to everyone else. Everyone else is still just as powerful as they were. They have not been penalised.
Any system of using racial traits to encourage archetypes would also penalise characters from other race/class combinations and might be even more of a 'penalty'. Why shouldn't the Dwarf be as good at spell penetration as the Elf? Because he isn't even without the Favoured Class mechanic. Unless you play a game with one race and one class you will get certain combinations that are better. That does not mean that the other combinations are being penalised! Good grief!
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Not interested in argueing the definition. What are some suggestions for making more people happy? Would it really p@ss you off that much to completely abandon Favored Class?
What if taking a level in Favored class allowed you to take a feat that gave you +1 H.P. or +1 Skill for each level? So it's not automatic, but if you take this feat, (only if) you basically get the (no longer free) s.p. or h.p. per favored class level.
Not interested in argueing the definition. What are some suggestions for making more people happy? Would it really p@ss you off that much to completely abandon Favored Class?
For some Grognards, Favored Classes are a Sacred Cow that must be kept alive at all costs, lest their games be overrun with Vile Filth like Elven Monks and Dwarven Wizards and Halfling Barbarians. None of these race/class combos are Tolkien-approved, and they believe that we should implement any rules necessary to keep these Abominations from potentially infesting their games - even at the expense of mathematics or logic.
These are the same guys that went into hysterical fits when we moved from 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition and they found out that other races could take Paladin levels, demi-humans didn't have caps on their level advancement anymore, and everyone used the same rule set for multi-classing.
One player choosing to conform to racial norms and being rewarded is not a penalty to everyone else. Everyone else is still just as powerful as they were. They have not been penalized.
So basically:
All race/class combos are equal, but some race/class combos are more equal than others.
This thread is starting to degenerate...
The glass will always be half-full for some and half-empty for others, and in reality, it doesn't really matter if it comes out to be an advantage for one or a handicap for the other.
What remains in either case is a difference in power between two characters; the one with a favored class and one without. The game is full of contrasts and differences, but you usually give out something for the privilege of having something else. The fighter has no spells, but he has armor and a truck-load of feats... Seems like a fair trade.
The favored class mechanics allow you to trade your hp/skill point bonus for... the right to play something else? This trade-off does not appear fair to me, hence my dislike of the rule.
To this statement, some will reply: "Again, your logic is flawed because you assume that characters start out WITH the bonus and have to TRADE-IT OFF to play something else. You should start with the assumption that a character does NOT have the bonus, but is REWARDED if he chooses the favored class."
But should I really? If the goal of favored class is to encourage racial archetypes, shouldn't I expect to see a majority of characters with their favored class? If I had to design an encounter for an adventure, should I take in consideration that some players will have this bonus? Should I assume that most of the party members will get the bonus, or only some? In organized play, should I make sure that my character follow a favored class to be as efficient as possible? Unfortunately, only time will tell, but in my opinion, it is steering the creativity of RPGs in the wrong direction.
Admittedly, the favored class bonus is not even a huge one; it is just significant enough to create all this debate. Then again, some will say "why do you fuss so much over a bonus that isn't even that big", others will say "why do you cling to this bonus so much if isn't even that big".
It's a half-full/half-empty situation again...
'findel
Not interested in argueing the definition. What are some suggestions for making more people happy? Would it really p@ss you off that much to completely abandon Favored Class?For some Grognards, Favored Classes are a Sacred Cow that must be kept alive at all costs, lest their games be overrun with Vile Filth like Elven Monks and Dwarven Wizards and Halfling Barbarians. None of these race/class combos are Tolkien-approved, and they believe that we should implement any rules necessary to keep these Abominations from potentially infesting their games - even at the expense of mathematics or logic.
These are the same guys that went into hysterical fits when we moved from 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition and they found out that other races could take Paladin levels, demi-humans didn't have caps on their level advancement anymore, and everyone used the same rule set for multi-classing.
Where's the guy who was complaining about me being snarky now?
For the record, not only am I not anything like you described - I'm actually far, far more liberal than you are. If I had my way, Paladins wouldn't be restricted to Lawful Good (or any other specific alignment), races would only be defined by genetic traits, and culture would be part of character creation.
But keep on dreaming up your elitist hate-fest. It's amusing me.
For some Grognards, Favored Classes are a Sacred Cow that must be kept alive at all costs, lest their games be overrun with Vile Filth like Elven Monks and Dwarven Wizards and Halfling Barbarians. None of these race/class combos are Tolkien-approved, and they believe that we should implement any rules necessary to keep these Abominations from potentially infesting their games - even at the expense of mathematics or logic.These are the same guys that went into hysterical fits when we moved from 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition and they found out that other races could take Paladin levels, demi-humans didn't have caps on their level advancement anymore, and everyone used the same rule set for multi-classing.
Care to dial back the hostility a bit?
I haven't seen it mentioned here yet (although I easily could have missed it) but the Bull Man himself metions in his PFRPG in-house playtest that all races now pick any one class as their favored class at level one. Once chosen, it can never be changed.
It's in his blog.
Just FYI.
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If you play a Dwarven Wizard, at least you're getting something for your troubles, even if those abilities aren't optimal for power gaming.
Oh, I just had to quote this for the benefit of my group, to deflect their accusations that I was a cheese-weasel for a year.
Do you hear that?
Dwarven wizards aren't optimal!
In yerrr faaaace!
LOL
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I haven't seen it mentioned here yet (although I easily could have missed it) but the Bull Man himself metions in his PFRPG in-house playtest that all races now pick any one class as their favored class at level one. Once chosen, it can never be changed.
Many races effectively already had 'Any' as their favoured class, due to the practice of releasing umpteen flavours of subraces, in order to cheat the system.
"Wood Elves? Oh, deary me, no, we're Wild Elves! Not remotely the same at all!"
"This is our druid, the Forest Elf."
"Meet Devis, the Rainbow Elf, from Yaoi Glade."
"Heyyy, there, I'm like, the ruler, and everything, yah? Like, I'm a Vaaaaley Elf (). What's that, doesn't my valley have trees in it? Well, yeah!? Liiike, tooootally...why do you ask?"
"Can you take this message to the Snow Elves, at the North Pole. You know, the ones that work for that fat guy in red? The ones who're all, like, Artificers?"
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Not idiotic if you're actually talking about mathematics. A stellarly bad argument considering the PCs are not in competition playing a zero-sum game with each other.
Like Legolas and Gimli at Helm's Deep?
You don't have to be playing 'Sudden Death Player vs Player Cage Fight' to be in competition with your fellow party-members.
Many players are (consciously or sub-consciously) vying for spotlight time, the respect of their peers, a (spoken or unspoken) MVP status, party leader role, xp bonuses, treasure shares, etc.
While it can be fun to drop in on a game, and play an inbred Commoner for the laughs, few players are going to turn up week after week, to play a PC who is considered the 'Fifth Wheel', the 'Spare', the 'Little Kid Brother', the 'Tag-Along' or the 'Henchman'.
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While it can be fun to drop in on a game, and play an inbred Commoner for the laughs, few players are going to turn up week after week, to play a PC who is considered the 'Fifth Wheel', the 'Spare', the 'Little Kid Brother', the 'Tag-Along' or the 'Henchman'.
You mean like a fighter after level 12? ;)
Not idiotic if you're actually talking about mathematics. A stellarly bad argument considering the PCs are not in competition playing a zero-sum game with each other.Like Legolas and Gimli at Helm's Deep?
And yet Legolas's fairly obvious level of skills and abilities well beyond Gimli's didn't mean a bit in their friendly competition.
Thanks for unexpectedly underscoring my point. ;)
The favored class mechanic is also supposed to somewhat favor humans, who suffer the severe disadvantage of being the blindest race in the dark.
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I don't see how? Light sources are now extremely easy to come across with 0 level spells being infinite.
And what does them favoring whatever their first class is, (or whatever) have anything to do with vision?
In all actuality it seems to go against this.
Dwarves: Cleric = infinite Lightsource negates Darkvision
Elves: Wizard = infinite light source slightly helps Low-Light vision, but no more than a torch
Gnomes: Bard and Sorcerer = so just like Elves x2
Half-Orcs: Druid = exactly like Dwarf
Humans: Any, but no Low-Light vision or Darkvision
Half-Elves: Any, but already posses Low-Light vision
Halfling: Bard = infinite Light source, but no Low-Light/Darkvision
I haven't seen it mentioned here yet (although I easily could have missed it) but the Bull Man himself metions in his PFRPG in-house playtest that all races now pick any one class as their favored class at level one. Once chosen, it can never be changed.
It's in his blog.
Just FYI.
I hope that you're correct! That sounds like a more reasonable mechanic then what we currently have in the Pathfinder Beta. It provides an mathematical incentive for people to stick to one class, but no one is forced to play a race/class handed down to them by the Grognard Council to get the extra HP/Skill Points. Everyone is eligible for it, no matter what their race/class combo is.
If you play a Dwarven Wizard, at least you're getting something for your troubles, even if those abilities aren't optimal for power gaming.Oh, I just had to quote this for the benefit of my group, to deflect their accusations that I was a cheese-weasel for a year.
Do you hear that?
Dwarven wizards aren't optimal!
In yerrr faaaace!
LOL
Well, with a post like that, I have to know - how exactly are you accused of being a "cheese-weasel" with a Dwarven Wizard? LOL
I don't see how? Light sources are now extremely easy to come across with 0 level spells being infinite.
Infinite, but not long-lasting. Somebody took the energizers out of that spell. It's only ten minutes per level.
That means at first level your going to have to wake up one of your spell casters every ten minutes all night long to throw it out (try this in real life, LoL). Even after 6th level when it lasts an hour, your waking dudes up every hour on the hour.And talk about tactical inconvenience:
"Alright, Ace and Buzz sneak up onto that balcony there and ... yes?"
"Um ... won't they see our lights?"
"Just hope the GM isn't playing realistically."
And lastly, sitting around a well lit area in the middle of a dungeon, or even a wilderness hex, is just asking for random wandering monsters.
"Wake up, Charlie!"
"What? Need another light spell?"
"No, you setting them off every ten minutes like some arcane strobe light disco ball just attracted a patrol of orcs. Roll for initiative."
hmmm...
lemme see if I've got this right over the course of this very short topic...
old school camp: restrict class access based on race
new old school camp: restrict class access based on race, cultural variants
realist camp: restrict class access based on culture, cultural variants, class bonus based on sub-race
new school camp: any class, racial class bonus, cultural variants
alpha camp: any class, bonus for archtypes, penalized for multi-classing or taking a PrC
beta camp: any class, penalized for multi-classing or taking a PrC
omega camp: any class, no bonus/penalty, new zero the caffeine free flavourless diet rpg
Y school camp: why bother? why argue? why not? why even use dice?
dreamer camp: gimme, gimme, gimme, more not less, more, more, more, don't care what just more
power tools camp: my drow half-dragon thief/assassin/paladin/ranger better have an "I win" button
did I miss any? :D
hmmm...
lemme see if I've got this right over the course of this very short topic...
old school camp: restrict class access based on race
new old school camp: restrict class access based on race, cultural variants
realist camp: restrict class access based on culture, cultural variants, class bonus based on sub-race
new school camp: any class, racial class bonus, cultural variants
alpha camp: any class, bonus for archtypes, penalized for multi-classing or taking a PrC
beta camp: any class, penalized for multi-classing or taking a PrC
omega camp: any class, no bonus/penalty, new zero the caffeine free flavourless diet rpg
Y school camp: why bother? why argue? why not? why even use dice?
dreamer camp: gimme, gimme, gimme, more not less, more, more, more, don't care what just more
power tools camp: my drow half-dragon thief/assassin/paladin/ranger better have an "I win" buttondid I miss any? :D
Holier-than-thou camp: And that's why I play <insert non-d20 based game here>!
Not interested in argueing the definition. What are some suggestions for making more people happy? Would it really p@ss you off that much to completely abandon Favored Class?
What if taking a level in Favored class allowed you to take a feat that gave you +1 H.P. or +1 Skill for each level? So it's not automatic, but if you take this feat, (only if) you basically get the (no longer free) s.p. or h.p. per favored class level.
Now this is an idea I could get behind! The combinations still only exist based on tradition and some need to harken back to the old days of Tolkien, but at least it's not something being handed out for free anymore.
When a gnome isn't getting one thing (Elven Spell Penetration), he's getting something else in return (Gnome Racial Spell-Like Abilities). Theoretically, this is the case for all races and classes (in actuality, probably not so much *cough*half-orc*cough*). So when a dwarf bard isn't getting skill points or hit points for the sake of tradition, what is he getting instead? The right to play a nonstandard race-class combination? As though this should be some kind of privilege and the player is lucky to get even that?
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Well, with a post like that, I have to know - how exactly are you accused of being a "cheese-weasel" with a Dwarven Wizard? LOL
It's not so much the 'being a Dwarf' per se, but that I started out human, got killed, and reincarnated as a Dwarf, keeping my 'mental abilities', ie the bonus feat, 11 bonus skill points, and a full Charisma, thus getting all the Dwarf benefits with no down-side.
This unintentional (and definitely unplanned) benefit was used as a counterargument by other 'Gorgonzola-ferret' players in defence of their obsessively wonked-out builds.
And having more hp than all but one of them didn't exactly gain me much love...We didn't play out the levelling up and looting after the battle for Occipitus, since they wanted to thwart me officially breaking the 200hp barrier. Ah, well, I know I did, and that's all that matters!
:)
Well, with a post like that, I have to know - how exactly are you accused of being a "cheese-weasel" with a Dwarven Wizard? LOLIt's not so much the 'being a Dwarf' per se, but that I started out human, got killed, and reincarnated as a Dwarf, keeping my 'mental abilities', ie the bonus feat, 11 bonus skill points, and a full Charisma, thus getting all the Dwarf benefits with no down-side.
This unintentional (and definitely unplanned) benefit was used as a counterargument by other 'Gorgonzola-ferret' players in defence of their obsessively wonked-out builds.
And having more hp than all but one of them didn't exactly gain me much love...We didn't play out the levelling up and looting after the battle for Occipitus, since they wanted to thwart me officially breaking the 200hp barrier. Ah, well, I know I did, and that's all that matters!
:)
Hey reincarnated dwarven wizards are part of the fun!
Afterall at least its not as bad as the Eldritch knight in my group. He has a cursed weapon we cant get rid of (not sure if we want to, its really good) and it has a chance of polymorphing him every morning into something else!
Go to bed with your half-orc companion, wake up with "GNOLL! there's a GNOLL eating our breakfast! get him!"
hahaha good fun.
I think the optional first level only feat (+1 skill point per level of favored class) sounds like a decent compromise. It'll cost a feat to fully benefit from playing to type, but it also offers an additional modest benefit (and optional, at that) for playing a "preferred class".
That is already an option for beta and one I've found to be more popular once the characters reach mid level (6+) since they gotten past the low level "oh noes I dont have HP" anxiety.
Well, with a post like that, I have to know - how exactly are you accused of being a "cheese-weasel" with a Dwarven Wizard? LOLIt's not so much the 'being a Dwarf' per se, but that I started out human, got killed, and reincarnated as a Dwarf, keeping my 'mental abilities', ie the bonus feat, 11 bonus skill points, and a full Charisma, thus getting all the Dwarf benefits with no down-side.
Cheese! But unintentional, as you've stated below.
This unintentional (and definitely unplanned) benefit was used as a counterargument by other 'Gorgonzola-ferret' players in defence of their obsessively wonked-out builds.
Well, hang on there. You've made two points. First, that I had an obsessively wonked out build. I did not. I was a cleric specializing in divine feats and high CHA. Nuff said. And my counterarguement was never RACE - for me, the deal was this:
Wizard 6/Mage of the Arcane Order 5/Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil 7
I rest my case.
And having more hp than all but one of them didn't exactly gain me much love...We didn't play out the levelling up and looting after the battle for Occipitus, since they wanted to thwart me officially breaking the 200hp barrier. Ah, well, I know I did, and that's all that matters!
Wasn't that bothered. But seeing as I was the one who had more hp than you I guess it wouldn't. It was more your "I'm immune to everything with a swift action" tactics that got me. That and your inability to actually cast some darned spells when we needed them! I even have a quote: "I don't want to cast a spell now, I might need it in the next encounter" This being during an encounter that his prepared spell was absolutely the best use of that spell in the circumstances. Blooming miser.
Ahem.
Back on topic I always thought the favoured class thing was for flavour, not game balance. I knew humans got the 'any' option because their racial abilities sucked, but an elf that dabbled in magic, a dwarf who knew which end of an axe did the damage? Seemed to make sense to me. I suppose you got to try to stop the char-oppers from abusing it, but a DM can do that... I know I would, especially with builds like Mr. al-Baragu the Invulnerable, played by my good friend Snorter.
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Who said I was talking about you, eh?
Seems someone doth protest too much! :P
There was always Mr DeMargo 'Ten-Classes' in the party too...
And the Demon-Dicer...
And the guy who set his save DCs with a Perform skill check <rolls eyes>...
And I used immediate actions, if you please...swift is soooo last year.
Who said I was talking about you, eh?
Seems someone doth protest too much! :PThere was always Mr DeMargo 'Ten-Classes' in the party too...
And the Demon-Dicer...
And the guy who set his save DCs with a Perform skill check <rolls eyes>...
And I used immediate actions, if you please...swift is soooo last year.
Fair enough. Stop distracting me from my journal updating (no, not online yet)
It's not so much the 'being a Dwarf' per se, but that I started out human, got killed, and reincarnated as a Dwarf, keeping my 'mental abilities', ie the bonus feat, 11 bonus skill points, and a full Charisma, thus getting all the Dwarf benefits with no down-side.
This, ladies and gentlemen, is why I have been ranting so much about fixing the Reincarnate spell in Pathfinder.
It's not so much the 'being a Dwarf' per se, but that I started out human, got killed, and reincarnated as a Dwarf, keeping my 'mental abilities', ie the bonus feat, 11 bonus skill points, and a full Charisma, thus getting all the Dwarf benefits with no down-side.This, ladies and gentlemen, is why I have been ranting so much about fixing the Reincarnate spell in Pathfinder.
wait a minute, reincarnate needs to be fixed?
I always here players complaining about it. Usually we end up with hobgoblin paladins, and ogre wizards and the like.
So what is really wrong with the dwarf wizard? It doesnt break that much. He actually got some sort of bonus out of it. Instead most of the time, its a defecit.
wait a minute, reincarnate needs to be fixed?
I always here players complaining about it. Usually we end up with hobgoblin paladins, and ogre wizards and the like.
So what is really wrong with the dwarf wizard? It doesnt break that much. He actually got some sort of bonus out of it. Instead most of the time, its a defecit.
Yes, Reincarnate needs to be fixed. You can use Reincarnate to effectively double your racial abilities - just like the "Dwarven Wizard" in this example - and that needs to be remedied in the PRPG.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Yes, Reincarnate needs to be fixed. You can use Reincarnate to effectively double your racial abilities - just like the "Dwarven Wizard" in this example - and that needs to be remedied in the PRPG.wait a minute, reincarnate needs to be fixed?
I always here players complaining about it. Usually we end up with hobgoblin paladins, and ogre wizards and the like.
So what is really wrong with the dwarf wizard? It doesnt break that much. He actually got some sort of bonus out of it. Instead most of the time, its a defecit.
Why stop at double? Just keep getting reincarnated as something different, and end on bugbear or something good for your physical stat boosts.
Why stop at double? Just keep getting reincarnated as something different, and end on bugbear or something good for your physical stat boosts.Yes, Reincarnate needs to be fixed. You can use Reincarnate to effectively double your racial abilities - just like the "Dwarven Wizard" in this example - and that needs to be remedied in the PRPG.wait a minute, reincarnate needs to be fixed?
I always here players complaining about it. Usually we end up with hobgoblin paladins, and ogre wizards and the like.
So what is really wrong with the dwarf wizard? It doesnt break that much. He actually got some sort of bonus out of it. Instead most of the time, its a defecit.
It's not a choice to die and pick a new race, it's a random roll, what if you get reincarnated as a kobold?? then your physical stats rot!
what now commit suicide and re roll? Its random, it is what it is, it's certainly not something "exploitable"
It's not a choice to die and pick a new race, it's a random roll, what if you get reincarnated as a kobold?? then your physical stats rot! what now commit suicide and re roll? Its random, it is what it is, it's certainly not something "exploitable"
I've found that in some gaming groups, Reincarnate tends to be a lot less "random" then it is supposed to be. And some power gamers are more then happy to kill their characters off repeatedly until they get just the right race/class combo. Best to fix the spell and avoid the situation altogether. Lost levels can be regained or restored, but stacking extra Racial Traits last forever!
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It's not a choice to die and pick a new race, it's a random roll, what if you get reincarnated as a kobold?? then your physical stats rot! what now commit suicide and re roll? Its random, it is what it is, it's certainly not something "exploitable"I've found that in some gaming groups, Reincarnate tends to be a lot less "random" then it is supposed to be. And some power gamers are more then happy to kill their characters off repeatedly until they get just the right race/class combo. Best to fix the spell and avoid the situation altogether. Lost levels can be regained or restored, but stacking extra Racial Traits last forever!
I would say that's more a problem with power gamers and people moding the rules than the rules themselves.