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I agree that changing the spellcasting will have the most significant effect, but I don't necessarily want that to happen (nor do I think it is fully or easily possble, as you point out).
My vote lies with animal companion. It should be a token ability, put it on par with the ranger. That way you have one consistent system, just like familiars, shared by two classes. The ranger is not losing out, and the druid retains the companion for flavour but at reduced capability.
I'm not of the opinion that having a druid makes warriors redundant, but the companions definitely perform close to the level of an extra warrior, even in PRPG. I'll mention my Red Hand of Doom playtest where the 4th level druid has killed about 5 out of 10 enemies so far in the battle.
Another method of handling is to reduce the attacks granted by wildshape to be based on your BAB. No iterative attacks, no natural secondary attacks. Wild shape has enough exceptions that this small one is actually the least extreme.
A final point about companions is the increase in book-keeping. If your companion sits on the sideline, or serves as scout or mount, there is far less to worry about (especially if they aren't constantly improving in ability).
In terms of backwards compatability, it would require some reworking of the companion improvements to make pulling an animal out of the MM easier to readjust to this new standard, but I think it would go a long way to reducing the capability of the class.
Another suggestion would be to reduce the druid to poor BAB and d6 Hit Dice, but that is not likely to happen.
It was suggested in another thread that the druid get the choice of either Wildshape *or* Animal Companion at 1st level. This still leaves the druid with plenty of options. It also presents the least issues with regards to backwards compatibility because the DM can simply cross off one of the abilities.
I would go even further to suggest the druid drop any of the three, Animal Companion, Wildshape, or Spellcasting.
Either way it give the player the option to pick which way he wants his druid to go.
I love the idea also. I think, however, that my players will hate it.
Now, it makes more sense, and makes more BC to just choose between having animal companion and wildshaping. The druid of the 3rd is a full caster and will always be. I just think that the option of him not being a full caster hurts the feelings of the great backwards compatibility.
No matter what, be it on PF or not, I'll consider making the druids of my games choose between one or another...
*yawn*
Here we go again. Another "eliminate the Animal Companion thread".
You guys need to drink less Haterade.
I mean, you guys know that Clerics, Sorcerers, and Wizards have access to better Animal Companions then what the Druid has, right? And that anyone can take a Cohort with the Leadership feat?
Oh Sueki, please, consider this as a "give the druid option of wich ability to lose thread".
I'd actually prefer dropping the Druid's BAB down.
What exactly requires them to have a medium BAB? If the druid has wildshape and spells, what need do they have of the same BAB as a cleric?
Well BAB change could be a big issue with BC and it would drop the HP down as well. so I cant say I am for this. I would drop the domains
I'd actually prefer dropping the Druid's BAB down.
What exactly requires them to have a medium BAB? If the druid has wildshape and spells, what need do they have of the same BAB as a cleric?
Hell, let's give them a D6 for HP while we're at it.
Hell, let's give them a D6 for HP while we're at it.I'd actually prefer dropping the Druid's BAB down.
What exactly requires them to have a medium BAB? If the druid has wildshape and spells, what need do they have of the same BAB as a cleric?
They would. BAB= HD under Pathfinder rules . Only the barbarian is the exception to this rule.
Hell, let's give them a D6 for HP while we're at it.I'd actually prefer dropping the Druid's BAB down.
What exactly requires them to have a medium BAB? If the druid has wildshape and spells, what need do they have of the same BAB as a cleric?
Good thought. Maybe even d4.
I am personally in favor of letting each druid choose, at level 1, what "set" of class features they want.
Do want:
Wild shape and meaty AniCom
Or,
Spell casting, and Ranger AniCom.
Either way, you end up with a solid but not terribly OP class, while letting the character decide which way to go.
-S
ummm why are they losing something again?
I really hate the fact folks want to nerf the wizard, I never got that still dont.
I really hate the fact folks want to nerf the wizard, I never got that still dont.
What I don't get is why it's Ok for 3 classes to be so much better than the rest. If the difference were somewhat in the ballpark it would be one thing but... *shrug* I ain't gonna argue about it, there are folks who swear fighter 20 in the core rules was as powerful as Wiz 20. Whatever.
well there not as powerful but they don't have to be, pure balance and you get 4e. Once you balance it like that you lost me as a customer.
I myself find different classes having different power levels fine, but to each his own.
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My vote lies with animal companion. It should be a token ability, put it on par with the ranger. That way you have one consistent system, just like familiars, shared by two classes. The ranger is not losing out, and the druid retains the companion for flavour but at reduced capability.
Well, many of us want the Ranger's AC strengthened, because at present it's useless. The ranger is clearly losing out -- it's an almost worthless class feature that also doesn't make a lot of sense (if the Ranger likes the animals, why would he take them with him when they are pretty much destined to do nothing or else get killed, and maybe both?) -- so I don't think that doing the same to the Druid makes a great deal of sense.
Why not weaken wildshape, if one wishes to weaken the druid and doesn't want to screw with spellcasting too much? Of course, as pointed out in the OP, that makes another useless class feature, potentially.
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well there not as powerful but they don't have to be, pure balance and you get 4e. Once you balance it like that you lost me as a customer.
I don't like 4e, but I hardly think that it's the inevitable conclusion of going for balance.
In any case, I don't see how balance is going to be achieved whilst maintaining backwards compatibility with 3.5, although it seems to me that buffing the weaker classes is going to be more workable/popular than weakening the stronger ones (or rather, than weakening their spell-sourced ability).
I don't know to me a wizard laying waste to armies is a big sacred cow. I don't want to see spell caster nerfed more then they have been. I would cut the druids domains myself however. and kill one of the clerics domains as well
I think the choosing between Animal Companion, Wildshape, and a Domain works.
I also think a limited wildshape power makes a lot of sense as a mid-high level barbarian rage power.
And Rangers should get full companions.
If the druid is too good, and the melee classes are too weak, why not spread some of those good powers around?
I don't see a need to have non caster buffed to that level, but eh that's just me
well there not as powerful but they don't have to be, pure balance and you get 4e. Once you balance it like that you lost me as a customer.
I myself find different classes having different power levels fine, but to each his own.
If the difference were a little more subtle or if the wizard/ druid/ cleric were pretty run of the mill but could occasionally destroy armies it would be one thing. As it is around 5-7th level the casters do 90% of the work and the rest are just a clean up crew in most encounters. As they get into the higher levels the casters can even take care of their own clean up .
I'd actually prefer dropping the Druid's BAB down.
What exactly requires them to have a medium BAB? If the druid has wildshape and spells, what need do they have of the same BAB as a cleric?
This week on "People That Can't Detect Sarcasm"...
Hell, let's give them a D6 for HP while we're at it.Good thought. Maybe even d4.
Are you serious? You can't be serious.
Come on, people! Wild Shape was the Druid's most powerful ability in 3.5 (indeed, it was VASTLY overpowered), and it's been beaten down hardcore with the nerf bat. They also lost a few spell slots in the process, their spell lists have NEVER been as good as either the Wizard or the Cleric, and their Animal Companion has NOTHING on the kind of servitor creatures that Wizards and Clerics can whip up with Animate Dead.
Right now, Druids make 3rd rate fighters and are 2nd rate Evokers and Healers. Their Animal Companions are a solid addition to the class, but they are NOT overpowered. The Druid doesn't need to be hit with the nerf bat any further, thank you very much.
This week on "People That Can't Detect Sarcasm"...
This is the quote of the week.
Come on, people! Wild Shape was the Druid's most powerful ability in 3.5 (indeed, it was VASTLY overpowered), and it's been beaten down hardcore with the nerf bat. They also lost a few spell slots in the process, their spell lists have NEVER been as good as either the Wizard or the Cleric, and their Animal Companion has NOTHING on the kind of servitor creatures that Wizards and Clerics can whip up with Animate Dead.
Wildshape has been 'nerfed' to the point where it is merely an extremely powerful class ability instead of being a completely broken joke. Wild shape is nearly as powerful as a barbarian's signature rage class ability... arguably more powerful because of the total utility of the shapes (Fly, Earth Glide, Pounch...) and duration (hours versus rounds).
Right now, Druids make 3rd rate fighters and are 2nd rate Evokers and Healers. Their Animal Companions are a solid addition to the class, but they are NOT overpowered. The Druid doesn't need to be hit with the nerf bat any further, thank you very much.
Clearly you haven't honestly tried to build up a druid as a combatant if you call them '3rd rate fighters'. Maybe the problem isn't the class but it's your lack of ability to leverage it properly? Have you even tried to build a Wild Shape Focused druid since the 'nerf'? I would be curious to see the results. I'm working on a Wild Shape focused druid and I'll post it today or tomorrow... so far he looks pretty decent in melee but we'll see.
Why on earth would anyone attempt to build a druid as an evoker or a healer? This is sort of like suggesting that a wizard is a crappy character because they can't heal. Druids are awesome battlefield controllers (walls, rock to mud, entangle... ) and absolutely incredible summoners.
Wildshape has been 'nerfed' to the point where it is merely an extremely powerful class ability instead of being a completely broken joke. Wild shape is nearly as powerful as a barbarian's signature rage class ability... arguably more powerful because of the total utility of the shapes (Fly, Earth Glide, Pounch...) and duration (hours versus rounds).
Wild Shape isn't quite as strong as you think it is. Keep in mind that the stat changes for size increases from Medium to Huge sizes have been greatly reduced in the Pathfinder RPG. It's whenever you have a size jump from Huge to Gargantuan that you start seeing very large size-related stat changes.
That being said, I do believe that the Wild Shape progression and the various Form/Shape spells need a bit of tweaking, but nothing near the nerfs or outright elimination that you're calling for. But you are correct in one regard - an 11th level Barbarian with Greater Rage makes a great benchmark for the relative physical power and overall stat gains of the various Druidic Wild Shapes.
I'll try and post something tomorrow about this.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It is amazing to me to read these boards and see all the Anti Druid bleeding out of so many.
The Quintessential Druid of D&D is a subset of Cleric (so anyone suggesting removing spellcasting doesn't want to play D&D) that shape shifts (so anyone wanting to nerf/remove Wild Shape doesn't like D&D) among other things.
If you ask me, the Druid has been nerfed so bad that it needs a boost.
We need to go and pluck some of the old abilities from 1st and add them to the Druid:
1) Master of Languages (+17 extra languages at 20th level)
2) Identify plants, animals, pure water at will.
3) Non Combat Shapeshifting forms (as the current Beta PRPG rules on Wild Shape.)
4) Spell Casting (since it was a "subclass of Clerics.")
5) Immune to Charm spells.
6) Immune to all poisons except mineral or gas.
7) Long life with excellent health.
8) Alter Self at will in 1/10th of a round (so about half a second now.)
9) Able to Summon the largest (most HD) elementals than any other class, so a powered up (superior) version of Elemental Monolith from Complete Arcane?
10) Plane Shift self at will to the following Planes (Earth, Fire, Water, Air, all para planes, Shadow, all inner planes, 7th dimension, Concordant Opposition.)
11) 14 hit dice, so basically statistically more hit points than any other class could accomplish. Every other class stopped at 9 or 10 hit dice. Only fighters got +4 from CON, everyone else got +2 max from CON.
So 14th Druid with ok CON will have 14d8+14*2 = 91 hp. A 14th Fighter with good CON will have 9d8+14*4 = 105.5 hp. Basically the 2nd highest hp in game.
So I ask you Druid haters, why do you not enjoy playing D&D?
Where is the Druid's Innate at will Alter Self?
Where is the Druid's Innate plane shifting? The plane shifting that took 3 seconds to perform (roughly a standard action now.)
If anything the class needs to get back some of it's old luster. I never like the Druid since 2nd forward. I've never played a Druid since 1st edition.
Where is my "2nd highest hit points possible in the game"?
It is amazing to me to read these boards and see all the Anti Druid bleeding out of so many.
This was a funny post.
That being said, I do believe that the Wild Shape progression and the various Form/Shape spells need a bit of tweaking, but nothing near the nerfs or outright elimination that you're calling for. But you are correct in one regard - an 11th level Barbarian with Greater Rage makes a great benchmark for the relative physical power and overall stat gains of the various Druidic Wild Shapes.
So the cornerstone class feature of the Barbarian class is the benchmark for what is a secondary class feature of a character class with a full casting progression?
How Wild Shape Used To Work
Back in D&D 3.5, Druids were CLEARLY one of the most powerful classes in the game. The reason for this was the fact that they could swap out their STR, CON, and DEX scores with that of any creature that they could transform into with Wild Shape. An enterprising Druid would use his physical ability scores as dump stats and struggle through the first five levels of the game until they gained the Wild Shape ability and the Natural Spell Feat. They would then leverage the Natural Spell Feat so they could cast spells while Wild Shaped so they could retain their heightened ability scores at all times.
At lower levels, Druids would gain massive untyped bonuses to their ability scores. A 5th level Gnomish Druid with STR 08, DEX 08, and CON 08 could shift into Bear form and watch their stats suddenly jump up to STR 19, DEX 13, CON 15 for 5 hours. That's equivalent to gaining an untyped +11 STR bonus, +5 DEX bonus, and a +7 CON bonus. And since these were untyped ability score bonuses, you could still benefit from the Enhancement ability score adjustments provided by spells such as Bull's Strength, and Bear's Endurance. You could just stack up those bonuses and go crazy in combat.
But once the Druid was able to transform into creatures larger then Medium Size, that's when the Wild Shape ability REALLY started to break down in most games. The Wild Shape spell and the Polymorph spell stated that you would gain the STR, DEX, and CON of the new form, but didn't explicitly say anything about ability score adjustments related to Size adjustments. Just gaining those untyped bonuses was crazy enough as it was, and most reasonable GMs would rule that the ability score swaps accounted for any ability score adjustments related to size. But if you happened to be in a campaign with a GM that decided that you would also gain the appropriate Size related ability score adjustments, any Druid in the campaign basically won the lottery.
Increasing that Gnomish Druid's size to Large would give the character the following ability score adjustments: +20 STR, -6 DEX, +10 CON. And if he was in Megaraptor form, he'd get the following untyped bonuses to his stats: +13 STR, +13 DEX, and +13 CON. So between his Size and untyped ability score bonuses, this Druid now has a +33 STR, +7 DEX, and +23 CON. And that's BEFORE you count any Enhancement bonuses from either magical items or spells. And he could run around like this all damned day if he wanted to - he just needed to blow a Wild Shape every 15 hours and these bonuses would be maintained indefinitely.
How Wild Shape Works Today
The Pathfinder design team has done an excellent job of reigning in Wild Shape's power. The foundation for this reform is their detailed description of how spells belonging to the Polymorph school work.
Here's what they have to say about ability score adjustments related to size adjustments in the Pathfinder RPG Beta:
"If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, combat maneuver bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell."
If you take a look at the spells that provide the foundation for the Wild Shape ability, you'll see that NONE of them provide an exception to this clause. So if a 12th level Gnomish Druid decides to Wild Shape into a Huge Earth Elemental, he doesn't get ANY ability score bonuses related to his Size increase. All he gets are the following enhancement ability score adjustments: +8 STR, -2 DEX, and + 4 CON. That's a total ability score adjustment of +10 ability score points. In comparison, an 11th level Barbarian that is using Greater Rage gets +6 STR, +0 DEX, +6 CON. That's a total ability score adjustment of +12 ability score points.
The Barbarian is still coming out ahead in terms of raw ability score adjustments. And the Barbarian's bonuses are untyped - he can still benefit from enhancement spells and magical items. Since the Druid's bonuses are Enhancement bonuses, he can only benefit from enhancement bonuses that exceed what is provided by the spell or inherent bonuses provided by the Wish spell or similar magical items.
But you're probably saying to yourself - but the Druid in Huge Earth Elemental form gets that sweet +6 Natural Armor bonus! That's not fair! Unfortunately, that Natural Armor bonus doesn't go quite as far as you might think. You're getting a +6 Natural Armor bonus, but you're also losing 1 point of AC due to your negative Dexterity adjustment.
And even though you don't get the raw ability score adjustments from changing size, you DO get the raw adjustments to AC that come with the size adjustment. So our a 12th level Gnomish Druid loses another three points of AC when he grows to Huge size - his net AC change comes to +2. But unless you have Wild Armor and a Wild Shield, your AC is going to drop right into the toilet because you're going to lose all of your armor bonuses while Wild Shaped.
So you're probably saying to yourself - so what? This guy has a +8 STR adjustment and he's got a 15 foot reach. Who cares? He's just going to pummel everyone at range. Well, our 12th level Gnomish Druid is much stronger and somewhat tougher then he was before, but he can't leverage his enhanced STR score because there's also a Size penalty to attack rolls that comes with the size change. The +8 STR bonus gives our Gnomish Druid a +4 to attack and damage rolls, but his size changes give him a -3 penalty to attack rolls. So he's only gaining a net +1 bonus to attack rolls.
So let's compare what our 11th level Barbarian and our 12th level Druid are actually gaining from their respective class abilities. For the purposes of this example, we're going to assume that the Druid has a set of +1 Hide Armor and a +1 Heavy Wooden Shield - neither of them will have the Wild ability.
Barbarian with Greater Rage: + 3 to hit and damage rolls, +3 HP per level, -2 to AC, +3 to Will saves, DR 3/-.
Druid: +1 to hit rolls, +4 to damage rolls, +2 HP per level, and a total adjustment of -5 to AC (+6 natural armor, - 1 DEX adjustment to AC, - 3 Size adjustment to AC, -7 AC armor bonus lost to Wild Shape). If by some reason you have Wild Armor, then you'd be looking at a total bonus of +2 to AC. You're also going to have DR5/- if you use Elemental Body.
But all in all, Wild Shaping into a Huge Elemental is about on par with the Barbarian's Greater Rage ability. But you also have to keep in mind a few things:
1) The Barbarian is going to have higher base physical scores.
2) The Barbarian can still benefit from Enhancement bonuses.
3) The Barbarian has a higher BAB and an extra attack.
4) The Barbarian has more HP then a Druid does.
5) The Barbarian can use a magic weapon.
Even with Reach and the other special abilities that come with Wild Shape, it's still probably better for the Druid to sit back and cast spells instead of mixing it up in melee. You don't have the hit points for it and your BAB isn't going to be good enough to get a whole lot of millage out of Wild Shape in combat.
You'll also still need to use Greater Magic Fang for every encounter - one casting of the spell for each type of natural weapon that you have at your particular form's disposal. Otherwise it's like you're beating on a wall once you start fighting higher level monsters.
I'd also like to point out that since your type/subtype doesn't change to Animal, you can't cast Animal Growth on yourself to further enhance your ability scores. But even if you could, the Pathfinder Design Team has toned down the raw ability adjustment modifiers from Size changes (see page 160) - Animal Growth is not quite as mighty as it used to be.
Furthermore, the penalties to your ability scores that are applied to your ability scores are NOT enhancement penalties - they are untyped penalties. So there's none of this nonsense about strapping on a Belt of Giant Strength +4 and watching your DEX score jump from a -2 penalty to a +4 bonus.
Finally, unlike your friend the Wizard, you can't use Beast Shape III to turn into a Magical Beast. That is off-limits to Druids. You'll need to wait until you get the 9th level spell Shapechange if you want to change into Manticores or Dragons or anything crazy like that.
Is Wild Shape a nice ability? Certainly. Is it a game breaker like it was before? Not even remotely. Is a Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger going to be a better melee combatant then a Druid? Yes. And guess what? So will Clerics (thanks to Divine Power), Rogues (thanks to Sneak Attack, dual wielding weapons, and typically high DEX-based ACs) and Abyssal Sorcerers (thanks to Enlarge Person, Transformation, massive innate untyped STR bonuses, and magic falchions).
So the Druid is going to be a better combatant then... non-combatant Wizards and Sorcerers. His Animal Companion somewhat offsets this, but it's not enough to put them into Cleric/Rogue territory, and certainly not in Abyssal Sorcerer territory.
In short: as it stands right now in its current iteration, the Druid is not an overpowered character class.
I'm curious if anyone has tested a druid as written with one exception, stripping out wildshape. I'd be interested on how they faired.
I had an interesting thought as I read this thread, since one of the complaints I keep seeing is that there is too much stuff crammed into one class, why not just make to classes. A shapeshifting class, and a spellcasting class. If you want an old style druid, multiclass.
I'm curious while you were comparing bonuses did you notice if the barbarian gets Trample when he rages? Does he get 15' reach? Swallow whole? Pounce? Rack? Blindsense? Earthglide? Fly 90'? Poison? Swim 90'? Earthglide? Push? Burn? Oh... and hope the barbarian doesn't need to rage for too long, what is it 50 rounds/ day at 11th level? The druid is still shifted long after that.
You are looking at one tiny mathematical piece of Wildshape and ignoring that the druid can shape shift to be exactly the enemy required for the situation. Have lots of room against a lot of medium sized enemies? Go with triceratops and trample which is likely more effective than fireball. Fighting a flying enemy, shift into a fast flier with perfect flight.
And the most ridiculous thing about your comparison? You are comparing one of the druids class features against the Barbarians cornerstone ability...
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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too much stuff crammed into one class, why not just make to classes. A shapeshifting class, and a spellcasting class. If you want an old style druid, multiclass.
You really don't want to play D&D do you?
You can't take the Wild Shape out of the Druid without becoming some other class.
Not to mention a chance as what you suggest would be an even greater destroyer of backward compatibility than the proposed Domain changes to Clerics from 3.5 to PRPG.
I'm curious while you were comparing bonuses did you notice if the barbarian gets Trample when he rages? Does he get 15' reach? Swallow whole? Pounce? Rack? Blindsense? Earthglide? Fly 90'? Poison? Swim 90'? Earthglide? Push? Burn? Oh... and hope the barbarian doesn't need to rage for too long, what is it 50 rounds/ day at 11th level? The druid is still shifted long after that.
The Druid gets some of those abilities (they don't get Swallow Whole) depending on what form they choose to take, but they can't effectively leverage them because of their lower ability scores, lower BAB bonus, and lower AC (which is somewhat mitigated by Wild Armor). They get to change shape and do some cool things, but in a stand-up fight they are still outclassed by any of the dedicated melee classes, the Rogue, the Monk, and the Cleric. Keep in mind that the Druid cannot gain either Size bonuses from Enlarge Person or Animal Growth, nor can he gain any more Enhancement bonuses to STR from magic. Everyone else gets to pile on the magical ability score adjustments.
A Barbarian with a 16 CON will get 57 Rage Points per day, which is boosted by an additional 22 points once they actually enter a Rage. So you're looking at 79 points per day. And even if you're using all those cool Barbarian powers like Clear Mind, Powerful Blow, and Strength Surge, you should have PLENTY of points to get you through the day - unless you're fighting at the Pass of Thermopylae.
You are looking at one tiny mathematical piece of Wildshape and ignoring that the druid can shape shift to be exactly the enemy required for the situation. Have lots of room against a lot of medium sized enemies? Go with triceratops and trample which is likely more effective than fireball.
Here's some more math for you. Assuming you're a 12th level Druid with a base STR of 14, you'll do 2D8+10 damage to anyone that you trample when Wild Shaped as Triceratops. That comes out to an average of what, 18 damage per opponent Trampled? And then you'll get summarily cut to pieces by your opponents because of your large size, ease of flanking, and already low AC score. That's assuming you even have the room to get a good Trample going anyway.
I'll stay back and hurl a Flame Strike or maybe some Fire Seeds, thank you very much.
And the most ridiculous thing about your comparison? You are comparing one of the druids class features against the Barbarians cornerstone ability...
And in the comparison, the Barbarian still comes out ahead. It's more potent, exposes the character to less risk, and can still be enhanced by spells and magical items. Wild Shape may get you out of a scrape, but it's still best used as a utility spell or to give you a platform from which to hurl spells.
The Druid gets some of those abilities (they don't get Swallow Whole) depending on what form they choose to take, but they can't effectively leverage them because of their lower ability scores, lower BAB bonus, and lower AC (which is somewhat mitigated by Wild Armor).
I'd like to see your build with your 'lower AC'. With Wild Armor the typical AC for your 11th level druid is between 29 and 30 (+1 Dragonhide Full Plate Wild costs 19,000GP). I did a sample build at 11th level WITHOUT Wild Armor and typical ACs were 20-24 depending on the shape. Have you even made an attempt to built this character you are talking about being so ineffective?
They get to change shape and do some cool things, but in a stand-up fight they are still outclassed by any of the dedicated melee classes, the Rogue, the Monk, and the Cleric. Keep in mind that the Druid cannot gain either Size bonuses from Enlarge Person or Animal Growth, nor can he gain any more Enhancement bonuses to STR from magic. Everyone else gets to pile on the magical ability score adjustments.
Piling on magical ability scores has definite limits. Everyone can basically spend 16,000 gold pieces to get to the same point the druid is with strength at 8th level. Everyone can spend 32,000 GP to get where the druid is at 11th level but at the same time the druid can spend money on magic as well boosting his AC (Wild Armor), his attack bonus (amulet of Mighty Broken Fists), and his Dexterity.
What the others can't do is get Pounce with 5 attacks per round at 8th level all day long.
A Barbarian with a 16 CON will get 57 Rage Points per day, which is boosted by an additional 22 points once they actually enter a Rage.
This is wrong, reread the rules.
Here's some more math for you. Assuming you're a 12th level Druid with a base STR of 14, you'll do 2D8+10 damage to anyone that you trample when Wild Shaped as Triceratops. That comes out to an average of what,...
Why on earth would you build a character you intend for melee with a 14 STR?
You seem to think that when you trample you are going to stop right next to where the people you are attacking are. This is the wrong way to do it. You keep moving... 80' per round... It's not a tactic for taking down powerful enemies but for mowing down large numbers of mooks. How is your barbarian going to handle 20 enemies? He's going to get surrounded and flanked. The druid? He tramples them. They chase and he turns around and tramples them again. Sure some of them hit him but he can damage a ton of them in any give round. You barbarian? Maybe he can get 3 a round.
The point is the barbarian has exactly 1 tool, it's a large object with a sharp edge that he kills things with. He can make a single attack, or a full attack. Or he can grapple...
Lets talk about Combat Maneuvers for a minute. Your barbarian wants to grapple someone. So he approaches them and initiates a grapple... it fails so the barbarian loses his turn. The druid shifts into a dire bear. Then he attacks twice at his full BAB and once at -5. If he hits with any of those shots then he deals damage and gets a free chance to grapple... If he hits twice he gets 2 free grapple attempts.
Trip? Same deal with the Dire Wolf. Bullrush? Same deal, You do damage, the CMB comes free. (Incidentally... Fighters and barbarians NEED these things as options plus...) Pounce... charge 120' across the battlefield and make 4 melee attacks on an enemy... 120'? That's a range increment for the long bow.
So if your definition of "Better" is better at being able to do a large amount of damage to a single target on the battlefield then yes the barbarian is better. By any other criteria the druid completely devastates the barbarian.
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But once the Druid was able to transform into creatures larger then Medium Size, that's when the Wild Shape ability REALLY started to break down in most games. The Wild Shape spell and the Polymorph spell stated that you would gain the STR, DEX, and CON of the new form, but didn't explicitly say anything about ability score adjustments related to Size adjustments. Just gaining those untyped bonuses was crazy enough as it was, and most reasonable GMs would rule that the ability score swaps accounted for any ability score adjustments related to size. But if you happened to be in a campaign with a GM that decided that you would also gain the appropriate Size related ability score adjustments, any Druid in the campaign basically won the lottery.
Any DM who ruled that way would have to be completely oblivious to the rules, or aiming for a silly game, or have aggressive, bullying, cheating players.
The creature's ability scores include the size bonuses, why would you gain them twice?
Not that they'd stack, even if you did...
My vote lies with animal companion. It should be a token ability, put it on par with the ranger. That way you have one consistent system, just like familiars, shared by two classes. The ranger is not losing out, and the druid retains the companion for flavour but at reduced capability.
I'm not of the opinion that having a druid makes warriors redundant, but the companions definitely perform close to the level of an extra warrior, even in PRPG. I'll mention my Red Hand of Doom playtest where the 4th level druid has killed about 5 out of 10 enemies so far in the battle.
I'm following with the suggestion that the animal companion functions on a similar scale as the druid, but that would imply that the druid's score would be lowered, and the ranger's increased, if we're talking "middle ground".
*raises hand guiltily* I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that I'm the druid in that playtest. *bright grin* To be honest, the only thing going through my mind during that combat was "please don't hit Ur (the bear animal companion).. please don't hit Ur" at 19 HP compared to my 42 (thank you Favored Class Bonus and Toughness!), I was fearing for her/its life more than anything.
Since we're talking technically, I'll save the "Only if the players exploit/ Nature is an unfair mistress/ Character concept" stuff.
*considers* I can understand spacing the casting out a bit more, so they don't get.. *looks up book* 9th lvl spells without a "path choice" later in the class (10th?) to make the companion stronger or your magic stronger. The Wild Shape thing rather folds in with the "One with Nature" concept (very different from the "Cleric with the Nature and Animal Domains"). Maybe a limitation that the character must have spent a week + a number of days equal to character level to acquire the number of forms (One plus Int. Modifier?) they wish to shapechange into, as a result of studying the animal in question?
I mean, a Ranger gets an animal companion (I did like the PHB II's character options for keeping/removing class features) due to his affinity to nature (note the difference between ties and affinity)-- he is close to nature, and an animal chose to follow him. A Druid has nature oozing out of every pore! I really don't understand the cry for "nerf", but then again, I tend to play towards the character concept and not for maximum numberage.
The druid getting the animal's natural attacks makes sense, since they are embodying nature to an extent... I make no claims on some ridiculous multi-hitting insta-shred, though. Wouldn't an actual animal be able to do the same thing?
"Wild Man" and "Man of the Wild" aren't the same thing, though I do understand the comparison to Barbarian for benchmark purposes.
I digress, thus I'll stop here.
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Maybe a limitation that the character must have spent a week + a number of days equal to character level to acquire the number of forms (One plus Int. Modifier?) they wish to shapechange into, as a result of studying the animal in question?
While I agree that some creatures should be up to the DM's discretion, and limited to the creatures listed as existing in the campaign setting, it is generally a problem when mechanical options are dependent on in-game events, as not all PCs are created as level 1 characters.*
Who gets the veto, when the druid is a replacement PC?
Some DMs are more lenient than the norm, some less. What could be a balanced ability at one table, could be wildly out of control at another, or so restrictive at the other extreme, the druid's player may feel the ability is a waste, since the DM takes the view of
"You didn't meet that creature at my table; you don't know about it!"
"It's a horse!"
"Doesn't matter; prove you've met one!"
(Yes, OK, that's an extreme example, but hopefully you get the drift. I had a long debate in 2nd Edition over whether an ankylosaurus counted as a legal animal.)
After a certain level, the PCs will be assumed to have the means to teleport round the world spotting wierd critters, so the point is moot.
Far better, if you want to limit the number of forms, to just grant a certain number per level as being memorable, regardless of what might have been met.
Plus, it heads off that player whose character background was going to be "I grew up in a zoo..."
*see also; 'How many spells are in my Wizard's spellbook?'
I reluctantly have to agree that I, too, found that the druid, cleric, and wizard rather outclassed everyone else after 5th level or so in 3.5. My proposal is simple. Rather than removing class features, just increase the DC to cast defensively to 10 + spell level + CMB of threatening opponent. If threatened by more than one, use the highest and add +2 for each additional one (as if they were "aiding another" to threaten). Also, drastically increase the fighter's mobility in combat. Now, all of the sudden, spellcasters aren't nearly so awesome.
Paizo nerfed wild shape pretty well; I'm happy with that.
I reluctantly have to agree that I, too, found that the druid, cleric, and wizard rather outclassed everyone else after 5th level or so in 3.5. My proposal is simple. Rather than removing class features, just increase the DC to cast defensively to 10 + spell level + CMB of threatening opponent. If threatened by more than one, use the highest and add +2 for each additional one (as if they were "aiding another" to threaten). Also, drastically increase the fighter's mobility in combat. Now, all of the sudden, spellcasters aren't nearly so awesome.
This assumes that someone is going to be able to pin down the caster. Considering the mobility options, invisibility, mirror image, hours/ day flight, wall spells, etc that casters have access to it's highly unlikely that casters will be in a threatened area for long once you get past 8th level.
Paizo nerfed wild shape pretty well; I'm happy with that.
While it is much less silly it is still a huge ability when tacked onto a full casting class. More significant than either the wizard's specialist powers or the clerics domain powers... and that's without the Animal Companion or domain.
I'd like to see your build with your 'lower AC'. With Wild Armor the typical AC for your 11th level druid is between 29 and 30 (+1 Dragonhide Full Plate Wild costs 19,000GP). I did a sample build at 11th level WITHOUT Wild Armor and typical ACs were 20-24 depending on the shape. Have you even made an attempt to built this character you are talking about being so ineffective?
I included my math in my previous posts. And Druids aren't proficient with Full Plate armor. The best suit of armor that you're going to be able to get as a Druid would be a Dragonhide Breastplate. So let's assume that the Gnomish Druid in my example has a set of Dragonhide Breastplate +1. Let's also assume that he has a base DEX of 14. His AC would come out to:
Base AC of 10 + 6 (Natural Armor) +1 (+2 dex bonus plus - 1 point of AC due to Wild Shape spell) -3 (size adjustment to AC for size), +5 AC armor bonus (Wild Breastplate) = 19 AC.
And if you give him a Wild Heavy Wooden Shield +1, that would skyrocket to a massive 22 AC.
What the others can't do is get Pounce with 5 attacks per round at 8th level all day long.
Pounce + low HP + low BAB = lots of whiffing followed up by a lethal counterattack from your opponent.
Sueki Suezo wrote:
A Barbarian with a 16 CON will get 57 Rage Points per day, which is boosted by an additional 22 points once they actually enter a Rage.
This is wrong, reread the rules.
My bad. You ONLY have 57 Rage Points. Still more then enough to get you through the day.
Sueki Suezo wrote:Here's some more math for you. Assuming you're a 12th level Druid with a base STR of 14, you'll do 2D8+10 damage to anyone that you trample when Wild Shaped as Triceratops. That comes out to an average of what,...
Why on earth would you build a character you intend for melee with a 14 STR?
Because most Druids aren't being built to be melee characters. They are built to be CASTERS. And casters are going to put their highest ability scores in their primary caster stat, followed by CON. He/she probably isn't going to have a very high strength.
If you're a Druid and you're putting your highest ability scores in STR, DEX, and CON, then of course you're going to be better in melee. If you only have a 14 WIS, then I certainly hope you're doing well in melee combat, because that's all you've got going for you.
You seem to think that when you trample you are going to stop right next to where the people you are attacking are. This is the wrong way to do it. You keep moving... 80' per round... It's not a tactic for taking down powerful enemies but for mowing down large numbers of mooks.
If you're just killing mooks, it's irrelevant. Anyone can kill mooks. What really tests the efficacy of something in combat is when you fight against a genuine threat to the party.
How is your barbarian going to handle 20 enemies? He's going to get surrounded and flanked.
Great Cleave? Whirlwind Attack? The Barbarian is hardly defenseless.
The druid? He tramples them. They chase and he turns around and tramples them again. Sure some of them hit him but he can damage a ton of them in any give round. You barbarian? Maybe he can get 3 a round.
No. You will trample your enemies for a little bit of damage, and then they will either 1) take a move action to scatter, draw their bows as part of their move action, and each take a standard action to fire off one shot at you or 2) run in and engage the rest of your party in such a way that you can't trample them again without running down your own people.
The point is the barbarian has exactly 1 tool, it's a large object with a sharp edge that he kills things with. He can make a single attack, or a full attack. Or he can grapple.
He can also take Feats and do cool things like Power Attack, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack. He can not only Rage now, but he can burn Rage points to get special abilities. And he has a massive amount of HP, better then average movement, and he's really good at leveraging all of these things so he can take that "large object with a sharp edge" and use it to turn you into a meat pinata.
Lets talk about Combat Maneuvers for a minute. Your barbarian wants to grapple someone. So he approaches them and initiates a grapple... it fails so the barbarian loses his turn. The druid shifts into a dire bear. Then he attacks twice at his full BAB and once at -5. If he hits with any of those shots then he deals damage and gets a free chance to grapple... If he hits twice he gets 2 free grapple attempts.
If the Barbarian couldn't grapple the opponent with his higher base STR, his Rage bonuses, his enhancement bonuses, his higher BAB, the odds are not particularly good that the Druid will be able to do the same. The Druid also only gets one grapple attempt.
Trip? Same deal with the Dire Wolf. Bullrush? Same deal, You do damage, the CMB comes free. (Incidentally... Fighters and barbarians NEED these things as options plus...) Pounce... charge 120' across the battlefield and make 4 melee attacks on an enemy... 120'? That's a range increment for the long bow.
And Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, and Monks all do these things better then the Druid. The Druid may have the opportunity to use certain combat maneuvers for free based on their form during combat, but the melee classes have the base stats, the BAB, and the gear to consistently pull off these special maneuvers.
Frankly, I'd still rather play one of those classes - or perhaps a Cleric clad in Full Plate with Divine Power. I would have the same number of HP, but a FAR less likely chance then the Druid of being beaten down after my first burst of melee damage.
So if your definition of "Better" is better at being able to do a large amount of damage to a single target on the battlefield then yes the barbarian is better. By any other criteria the druid completely devastates the barbarian.
That's kind of the point. The melee classes tear down single targets and the caster classes blast away at multiple targets. A Druid might make a moderately good striker in melee with a few tricks up their sleeve, but their AC stinks to high heaven even with Wild Armor. And when you combine that with their D8 HD, any Druid that is looking to focus on actually casting spells will be savagely beaten in short order if they decide to engage in a prolonged melee. The "average" Druid will be far better served by casting spells at range so they can do damage without getting clubbed to death.
Now if you want to make a Half-Orc Druid with STR 18, DEX 14, CON 16, WIS 14, INT 10, CHR 10, more power to you. You're only going to be able to cast up to 4th level spells until you get a WIS-booting item, so you'd better be good at melee. But the problem is that while the Druid looks pretty good in melee mid-game, everyone else is already starting to pull ahead of you in terms of melee effectiveness by around 12th level. By the time you hit 15th or 16th level, I hope you have some kind of WIS-booting item, because you're going to need it.
I included my math in my previous posts. And Druids aren't proficient with Full Plate armor. The best suit of armor that you're going to be able to get as a Druid would be a Dragonhide Breastplate. So let's assume that the Gnomish Druid in my example has a set of Dragonhide Breastplate +1. Let's also assume that he has a base DEX of 14. His AC would come out to:
Base AC of 10 + 6 (Natural Armor) +1 (+2 dex bonus plus - 1 point of AC due to Wild Shape spell) -3 (size adjustment to AC for size), +5 AC armor bonus (Wild Breastplate) = 19 AC.
Your math is wrong. You can easily get 21 AC without Wild Armor. With Wild Armor it goes to 26. Take Heavy Armor Proficiency and suddenly it's 30. This is with large shapes. All your assumptions about horrid AC are wrong. Maybe you should actually build a character to test rather than make assumptions based on your preconceived notions.
Your proverbial barbarian? Breastplate +4, Dex +2, Ring of Protection +3... AC 23? 21 While raging. I guess he can take a shield but that puts a world of hurt into his ability to dish out damage. Before you start talking about making any more claims about your barbarian's AC I want to see what he looks like built up. At the very least attributes, some feats and armor.
Pounce + low HP + low BAB = lots of whiffing followed up by a lethal counterattack from your opponent.
Compared to what? You keep comparing nothing to a ghost. I put up a build now put up or put a sock in it.
My bad. You ONLY have 57 Rage Points. Still more then enough to get you through the day.
Depends on whether you want to actually use those nifty rage powers or not.
Because most Druids aren't being built to be melee characters. They are...
Because "most druids" aren't built this way you ignore the possibility?
Why wouldn't you build a druid with high STR considering you need it to leverage a significant class ability?
In general your arguments are all based on shadows and your own assumptions (mostly wrong) about the limits of wild shape. I put up a druid build now lets see you put together a comparable barbarian. I think you said "Cleave, Great Cleave and Whirlwind attack"? I would like to see that on a single 11th level barbarian. We'll also see how good a barbarian is at Maneuvers... with only 6-7 feats he's going to have trouble being good with maneuvers AND getting Cleave/ Great Cleave in but maybe I'm wrong. I suck at optimization.
That's kind of the point. The melee classes tear down single targets and the caster classes blast away at multiple targets. A Druid might make a moderately good striker in melee with a few tricks up their sleeve, but their AC stinks to high heaven even with Wild Armor. And when you combine that with their D8 HD, any Druid that is looking to focus on actually casting spells will be savagely beaten in short order if they decide to engage in a prolonged melee. The "average" Druid will be far better served by casting spells at range so they can do damage without getting clubbed to death.
So your barbarian is ALWAYS faced with 1 enemy that's nearby that he needs to do a lot of damage to? He's never on a battlefield where mobility is important? He never goes into an encounter where there are 10-20 more or less equally powerful enemies? He is always reliant on the casters?
Now if you want to make a Half-Orc Druid with STR 18, DEX 14, CON 16, WIS 14, INT 10, CHR 10, more power to you. You're only going to be able to cast up to 4th level spells until you get a WIS-booting item, so you'd better be good at melee. But the problem is that while the Druid looks pretty good in melee mid-game, everyone else is already starting to pull ahead of you in terms of melee effectiveness by around 12th level. By the time you hit 15th or 16th level, I hope you have some kind of WIS-booting item, because you're going to need it.
I posted my build. He can doesn't need a stat boosting item until 15th level to cast 8th level spells.
"Everyone is already pulling ahead"... again who? Your ghost build that I can't see? The reason I insist on a build is because there are constraints on every character. Armor has Max DEX limits, everyone is limited by character attribute choices (point buy or rolling or whatever). You only have so many feat choices which further limits you.
Armor has Max DEX limits, everyone is limited by character attribute choices (point buy or rolling or whatever). You only have so many feat choices which further limits you.
So you want to remove or reduce Druid options because Mother Nature is nearly as strong (or as strong)as a Barbarian, just in different ways?
This assumes that someone is going to be able to pin down the caster. Considering the mobility options, invisibility, mirror image, hours/day flight, wall spells, etc that casters have access to it's highly unlikely that casters will be in a threatened area for long once you get past 8th level.
Also, drastically increase the fighter's mobility in combat.
I've got that covered. If the fighter threatens 5 or 10 ft. and has movement as lame as he does now, jacking up DCs is a waste of time, as you correctly point out. But if he can bust out a 20- or 30-ft. move as an immediate action... then his effective "reach" is drastically improved. Barbarians, paladins, and most particularly fighters would also need some better ways to resist "auto-corral/auto-shut-down" spells.
But, overall, the point is to give casters a credible threat when casting, instead of just saying, "well, it's so easy for them to keep spells now, that it must therefore be impossible to make it harder."
This can be accomplished with fighter fixes, coupled with a skill adjustment, that don't otherwise remove any abilities of the spellcasting classes.
Armor has Max DEX limits, everyone is limited by character attribute choices (point buy or rolling or whatever). You only have so many feat choices which further limits you.So you want to remove or reduce Druid options because Mother Nature is nearly as strong (or as strong)as a Barbarian, just in different ways?
No, I want to see a set of classes that are somewhat in the same ballpark of effectiveness. Maybe the solution is to make the fighter/ barbarian/ whatever better. Right now, as the game is written there is a huge gulf between the classes. Even just casting (no wild-shape or AC) the druid is more effective than any martial character because of his spells. If nothing else the druid can summon up enough friends to take care of the fighter's job for him... yet somehow people think the druid is weaksauce unless he has a giant animal AND the ability to turn into any natural creature under the sun for hours per day (and get free healing each time he does it).