Hello all - just wanted to share a build I've been having some success with. As many know I'm a big Summoner/Master Summoner fan (Synthesist/Broodmaster not so much)and this is the best version of the Summoner I've ever made.
The concept is simple - I wanted to make a summoner who could fight side by side with his eidolon and eventually fight astride him, to best maximize the Shield Ally and Greater Shield Ally abilities, Aspect, Greater Aspect as well as touch spells, life link and eventually even merge forms. The build works equally well as a standard Summoner or as a Wild caller though I highly reccomend that Half-elf be the race for its favored class option - you'll be taking a level of Fighter and won't have the feats available for Extra Evolutions so those meager bonus evolution points still turn out to be huge.
For the first 8 levels the Summoner will fight alongside or behind his eidolon using a reach weapon - a long spear - and then at 9th level will take a single level of Fighter. This gives him profeciency with a lance (all weapons, really) and profeciency with armor. We double down on that by using the bonus feat to select both Arcane Armor Training and Arcane Armor Mastery. Get your hands on some mithril plate and between your armor and Greater Shield Ally your AC is going to be pretty hard to beat.
Next we have to actually make you a competent combatant so that you're not merely dead weight for your eidolon and to do that we need strength. get an 18 Strength at 1st level and then plan on taking the Eldritch hHeritage feats for the Orcish Bloodline (in our campaign the character is half-orc, half elven). That will give him additional strength over the course of the character's development, give him the Touch of Rage power (ideal for use with a pouncing eidolon) and the ability to grow to Large sized at the same time your eidolon becomes Huge.
In our campaign we have this character and an Arcane Duelist as the only melee types and we haven't missed a beat.
Half-Elven 19th level Summoner / 1st level Fighter
Summoner favored class option for half-elves
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 16th and 20th level, +2 at 11th, 15th and 17th level)
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 14 (+1 at 4th, 8th and 12th level)
Traits:
Reactionary
Focused Mind
Feats:
1st Power Attack
1st Skill Focus: Survival
3rd Furious Focus
5th Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline (Touch of Rage)
7th Mounted Combat
9th Arcane Armor Training
9th Arcane Armor Mastery
11th Improved Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline (Strength of the Beast)
13th Ride-By Attack
15th Arcane Strike
17th Greater Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline (Power of Giants)
19th Quicken Spell
With the ability to boost one another's hit points, feed one another hit points, to decide if you're going to attack, buff or cast, with shared skills between the two of you making you both excellent trackers and scouts, with the eidolon's ability to pounce from one foe to the other, carrying your charging lance with it... just a tremendously effective character and one that has been a lot of fun to play.
A few things to consider - reach for at least one of the eidolon's attacks (bite) and Combat Reflexes as a feat so that anything that wants to attack you directly in melee is going to have to go through hell to do it. Flight is always useful but remember that you can use a wide variety of spells to give that to your eidolon when needed so evolution points can be used elsewhere, at least early on. My particular build for the eidolon eventually selected Dreadful Carnage and its attendant feats, figuring free action debuffs are always worth taking.
The only problem I see with the build would be that you took power attack at level 1. The prerequisite is "Str 13, base attack bonus +1". A summonerers bab is 0 at first level.
A few things to consider - reach for at least one of the eidolon's attacks (bite)reach can only be taken for one attack (not type) and only one time.
Other than that, it looks interesting. Hopefully this build works out for you.
I always forget to swap around Power Attack when I type it out - not sure why. And yes, I worded it badly - Reach for the Bite attack is what's reccomended.
For what its worth, the build HAS worked out well - very well -f ro the last year or so. Very powerful, very versatile and a lot of fun to play.
For mounted summoners the Escape Route teamwork feat is a must. If you and your eidolon have it, you need not worry about movement-related attacks of opportunity ever again.
For mounted summoners the Escape Route teamwork feat is a must. If you and your eidolon have it, you need not worry about movement-related attacks of opportunity ever again.
Wow - what a great find. Does it really work like that RAI for mounted characters? I think it'll slip right in there in the place of Ride-By Attack if so...
...or perhaps in that level 1 slot when I bump up Power Attack - the two are meant to fight side-by-side until they become a mounted pair.
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Temporarily updated feat list:
Feats:
1st Escape Route (teamwork)
1st Skill Focus: Survival
3rd Power Attack
5th Furious Focus
7th Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline (Touch of Rage)
9th Arcane Armor Training
9th Arcane Armor Mastery
11th Mounted Combat
13th Improved Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline (Strength of the Beast)
15th Arcane Strike
17th Greater Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline (Power of Giants)
19th Quicken Spell
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I really like the character. I personally wanted to do a mounted summoner but since we have a cavalier in our party, I did not want to step on his toes, my eidolon is already going to be better than his mount and my pounce is very likely going to be better than his charge.
How does your eidolon pounce from one foe to another? Or did you simply mean that he does like anybody elses eidolon does (usually every other round).
I like the bloodline. I was reading through it last night and seriously thought it would be pretty cool on my little gnome. The orc bloodline has a lot of potential for coolness and optimization.
There is something to be said about an 18 str summoner. And I really, really wish I could make one. Thanks for doing what I cannot! I will live vicariously through your deeds. ;) Instead, I have a 9 str summoner who sorely wishes he was capable in melee but refuses to go ranged combat. You now fight for the both of us.
I'm curious what your eidolons non-pounce related evolutions are (like, whether you took immunities, flight, breath weapons, etc), and what it's feat selection is. Kudos for making your eidolon huge...I simply could not find enough evolution points to do this with mine and it would have been SO awesome if I could have. He's a cerberus.
My summoner wants to play like he's a wizard but has a focus on hp (18 con) and armor class (light armor and buff spells make for a solid ac) which makes me wish I could take him into melee...but not with 9 strength. So frustrating. Anyway, I was growing increasingly annoyed with how everybody on these forums kept giving their characters bonus feats at 5th level, despite the class they picked (Summoners don't get a bonus feat at level 5!) so last night, after seeing your build, in my 'rage' I went to prove that this '5th level feat' myth was wrong....then, under 'character advancement' I noticed that pathfinder changed feat progression to every other level. I now have to rebuild every character (for the better). Rage dispelled (and boy did I feel embarrassed) ^_^
If you want to take a look at my summoner it's here. It's not formatted because I didn't know how to and I can't edit it. And also it's using 3.5 feat progression. I'll probably re-post it (updated and formatted) later, though.
PS. Half orc/Half Elf? I imagine that makes for some rather interesting RP problems and scenarios...
Also, is quicken spell really viable on a summoner? It can only be used on cantrips, first and 2nd level spells. Though, I admit, there are a plethora of awesome 2nd level summoner spells.
And yeah, if you can use Escape Route while mounted....that's ridiculous and cool! Big RAI question, though.
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Ravingdork, you make me want to find a way to make my Eidolon Huge....*sigh* I enjoyed how thorough your character is and the staff...right on. I am only level 3, but I cannot wait to get black tentacles and a staff that has it and also serves as a melee weapon? Pretty sweet. I found the eidolons carrying capacity to be amusing, particularly it's light load. For a little perspective, my summoner has a light load of approximately 24 pounds.
I really like how it doesn't scream that it was overly optimized but it looks extremely effective.
I didn't see mounted combat on the summoners feat list. I'm assuming you don't fight mounted but are 'flank buddying' with the eidolon? And since it is huge, it fills and threatens so many squares that as long as you are within approximately 15 feet of the eidolon, you can run around and never provoke aoo's via movement.
Oh, scratch that, looks like it only works if adjacent or in the same space. Still, useful. Would be better if it was within reach. Alas. Nice pictures, though. :)
I didn't see mounted combat on the summoners feat list. I'm assuming you don't fight mounted but are 'flank buddying' with the eidolon? And since it is huge, it fills and threatens so many squares that as long as you are within approximately 15 feet of the eidolon, you can run around and never provoke aoo's via movement.
That's because I ran out of feats. :(
I ended up having to decide what was better, the current feats, or being able to negate an attack against my eidolon. Once I realized that the eidolon's AC was going to be higher than my ride checks, I didn't really bother.
If I were to level up the character, his next feats would definitely go into the Mounted Combat feat tree though.
Also, if they are in an open space, he's likely riding the eidolon, there's no reason not to. He's much safer there and has longer reach. Many people consider the summoner to be the weakest part of the eidolon. This way, if they go after him they have to get past fang, claw, and spear as well as hit his higher AC and saves.
I'm having great fun with a 5th level mounted Summoner 18 strength mounted combat, spirited charge, ride by attack, and extra evolution. He has a heavy warhorse for the moment, but occasionally rides his eidolon when it is enlarged. His eidolon is a pouncer with acid attacks, a vicious +0 amulet of natural fists. It's been pretty effective so far.
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I never saw the summoner as the weakest part of the team. I'm a gnome with 9 strength. Technically, yes, I am weak. However, I can actually summon legit monsters besides the eidolon and eventually, summon them stronger and tougher, too. Moreover, summoners can pretend to be rather legitimate wizards in their own rights with a rather impressive array of archetypal and EFFECTIVE spells such as Binding, the various dominate X spells, Maze, invisibility, haste, slow, dispel magic, magic jar, fast healing spells, detection and non-detection spells, damage spells packaged in utility, defensive spells, and a host of various buffs. Saying the summoner itself is weak is like saying Sorcerers are weak (imo). I know you aren't actually saying that, but I feel it's a similar analogy. A summoner, to me, is like a sorcerer who traded some of their spellcasting for an eidolon and a lot of additional summoning spells. I feel that the bonus hp and attack bonus and ability to wear light armor covers the familiar advantages at any level, while the eidolon abilities more than make up for anything the bloodline powers have to offer. Sorcerers get a ton of spells per day? When you have summons 9-12+ times per day as standard actions and they come with spell like abilities and last for minutes per use, it's effectively the same thing as being a sorcerer. Nobody considers Sorcerers very weak at all.
And a raw comparison of which is more deadly, the eidolon or the summoner, or which is easier to defeat? I would honestly say that, alone, the eidolon is probably easier to defeat while the summoner is likely to have a harder time killing, though they could simply remove a threat from combat entirely if an enemy fails a save (pit spells, maze, dominates, etc).
My opinion might be somewhat jaded since my summoner has an 18 con and 19 charisma and is sitting behind his armor and an unbuffed ac that most enemies at this level miss fairly often. A single shield spell requires enemies to roll 18-20 to hit me (usually) and if they do, I have more than enough hp to spare and I rolled below average hp at that (and still have almost as many as our d10 hd fighters).
So again, take my thoughts with a grain of salt since my guy is physically weak but quite far from fragile. Now, if you build a summoner entirely around an eidolon, the eidolon will take precedence in every way, though, I imagine that the summoner would be wise enough to give the eidolon all the right abilities to compensate and give himself all the proper gear and spells/buffs to ensure that he remains effective at staying alive so his eidolon stays alive and does its thing. I just can't really see how one is any worse than the other (until you get into master summoner or something). ^_^
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I looked over past discussions on treating 'Escape Route' as 'never provoke AoO from movement while mounted' and you'll probably want to clear it with your GM first as there was substantial opposition to the idea.
That said, there also seems to be a lot of disagreement about how AoOs for mounted movement are supposed to work normally. Some say a mount and rider moving out of a square threatened by an enemy with combat reflexes allows an AoO on the mount, some that the enemy can choose to make an AoO on either the mount or rider, and some that the enemy can make an AoO on both.
I'm in the 'attack on either' camp and would probably rule that 'Escape Route' allows the rider to protect the mount, but not vice versa because the mount is busy actually making the movement and thus can't cover the rider. If the rider were to dismount and move away then the mount could use 'Escape Route' to cover them, but not while they are actually ON the mount.
Nobody considers Sorcerers very weak at all.
That's not at all true. In fact, a great many people on the forums consider sorcerers to be weak.
I really like the character. I personally wanted to do a mounted summoner but since we have a cavalier in our party, I did not want to step on his toes, my eidolon is already going to be better than his mount and my pounce is very likely going to be better than his charge.
How does your eidolon pounce from one foe to another? Or did you simply mean that he does like anybody elses eidolon does (usually every other round).
I like the bloodline. I was reading through it last night and seriously thought it would be pretty cool on my little gnome. The orc bloodline has a lot of potential for coolness and optimization.
There is something to be said about an 18 str summoner. And I really, really wish I could make one. Thanks for doing what I cannot! I will live vicariously through your deeds. ;) Instead, I have a 9 str summoner who sorely wishes he was capable in melee but refuses to go ranged combat. You now fight for the both of us.
I'm curious what your eidolons non-pounce related evolutions are (like, whether you took immunities, flight, breath weapons, etc), and what it's feat selection is. Kudos for making your eidolon huge...I simply could not find enough evolution points to do this with mine and it would have been SO awesome if I could have. He's a cerberus.
I'll come on here this thread and eventually do a level by level Eidolon build for the character. And yes, I meant just pounce, attack a foe til he was dead and then pounce again. In my opinion the ability to Quicken Haste alone as a combat opener is worth taking the feat, and it happens late enough that you should have plenty of higher levels spells to burn should you feel the need.
In our campaign world, elves and orcs have a common ancestry, and every noe an dthen a genetic throwback is born to one of the two races - among orcs they are killed, among elves they are ostracized... I've toyed around with the ARG to make one officially, but for now its purely a role-playing thing and players are allowed to select standard half-elves or half-orcs for the 'race'.
Truth be told I have lots of unresolved questions on how mounted combat works... things like:
If My eidolon Pounces, can I make a charge (double damage lance attack) against the same foe as part of that action? Do I get a move action or does my mount's charge count as a move action?
If I have Ride-By Attack and my Eidolon pounces, can I make an attack against a foe en route?
If the eidolon still subject to AoO's if I use Ride-By attack?
Can I use Ride-by attack if my eidolon mount is flying?
...just so very many questions.
At any rate, here's the official feat list for the Summoner and eidolon both:
Summoner feats:
1st Escape Route (teamwork)
1st Skill Focus: Survival
3rd Power Attack
5th Furious Focus
7th Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline (Touch of Rage)
9th Mounted Combat
9th Skill Focus: Riding
11th Improved Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline (Strength of the Beast)
13th Ride-By Attack
15th Arcane Strike
17th Greater Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline (Power of Giants)
19th Quicken Spell
I decided that being able to wear heavy armor was over-rated considering that by then the eidolon and I would be sharing hit points anyway - better to have an effective mounted combat/riding score so that I could negate 1 attack each round against my eidolon. I'm probably going to flip-flop Constitution and Dexterity in this instance as well.
Escape Route and Ride-By Attack are still in the air pending proper interpretations of how they function.
Eidolon feats:
1st Escape Route (teamwork)
3rd Weapon Focus - Claws
6th Power Attack
10th Furious Focus
12th Intimidating Prowess
15th Dreadful Carnage
18th Improved Critical - Claws
20th Toughness
Nobody considers Sorcerers very weak at all.That's not at all true. In fact, a great many people on the forums consider sorcerers to be weak.
Heh - my Kitsune Fey Bloodline Sorcerer would beg to differ.
I love Sorcerer's and I make an effort to work in the Eldritch Heritage feats into every high Charisma character I make.
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Ravingdork, I meant the statement as a generality. There are obviously lots of people who think wizard, druids, summoners, and any other class is weak. But Sorcerer, Wizard, Witch, Druid and Clerics have a rather large frequency of being on Tier 1. With Summoners consistently making the Tier 2. My point is that, if a class is useful, versatile (magic is generally versatile) then they are typically more flexible and powerful than those who are not using magic. I make an exception when it comes to skill monkeys since rogue classes have a lot more flexibility than is credited to them. However, the argument stands, sorcerers are among the most powerful classes in the game and therefor not considered weak (as in a bad choice or a poor choice). That bearing more than a few kernels of truth, makes my comparison of the summoner and sorcerer more clear, I hope.