As it stands, the current incarnation of "healing hands" gives the paladin more options, which is good. Unfortunately, the healing really got...well, it got nerfed into the ground.
For those not knowing, paladins can use LOH to heal for an amount equal to their level (sidenote: should probably say "class level," not "level"). Since paladins can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1/2 their class level + their Cha bonus, this ends up being more healing overall than the 3.5 paladin. Unfortunately, the paladin's in-combat healing gets annihilated by these options: the ability to heal 20 damage per round at level 20 (ignoring the heal class feature for a moment) is very underwhelming. And then the heal class feature is sort of a saving grace, but it comes far too late in the game--clerics have had it for seven levels at that point?--to be useful. And you have to spend 80 potential points of healing (again, at level 20) to use it.
Paladins need to be able to save the day. They're holy warriors--that's what they do. The ability to heal someone for 1 HP/round at first level is very, very underwhelming. It also violates the principles of the economy of actions: why are you healing when you could be beating things with your sword? The monsters are going to do far more damage than you can heal anyhow, so why are you wasting turns being useless?
I have three possible solutions:
1. Paladins can expend a single use of LOH to heal for 5 points of damage/class level. At thirteenth level, they can expend three uses of this to create a heal effect.
2. Paladins get a healing "pool" similar to that in 3e. By expending additional healing from this "pool," they can produce effects like neutralize poison (which might take 10-20 points of healing or something).
3. Stick with the current system, but paladins can expend a single use of their LOH to create a cure light wounds effect with a caster level equal to their level. At third level, this gets upgraded to cure moderate wounds. At sixth level, this gets upgraded to cure serious wounds. At ninth level, this gets upgraded to cure critical wounds. At twelfth level, this gets upgraded to heal, and they can use mass CLW if they so desire. And so on this progresses, allowing them to keep pace with the cleric.
I don't know which option is best, but I agree, the general problem (weak LOH) stands.
It would even be acceptable to have FEWER usages of it, if the amount of Healing was relavent...
I'm not sure about this, but there's also the option of somehow combining the Smite Ability with the LOH/ Cure Abilities is one "pool", either as usages/day, or points, or whatever. I don't know if this is where Jason wants to go with the Paladin, but it would certainly streamline the class, as well as give one mechanism more easily optimizable for (if based off of a Stat) or expandable (thru Feats like Improved Turning or granting new usages of the same "pool")
...???
I agree P_R, LoH is too weak; so are a lot of their other abilities too...
What about combining all of the Paladin's use-based powers (channelling, smites, LoHs, etc.) to draw from the divine energy they are already granted thru Channel Energy? It seems that it would be simpler to keep track of all their abilities from a single pool (like with the Barbarian and Bard) rather than giving them 2 pools of divine energy (what is one stored in their hand and the other in their gall bladder?).
Naturally, they'd need some more uses of Channelling at higher levels(and to get channelling at 1st instead of 4th), but it seems like a more elegant solution to me.
If this was done, perhaps the LoH output would be derived from the channelling healing/damage, but multiplied since it is being restricted to just one target. This would also give the Paladin some interesting choices about whether to Smite more frequently or save those channelling uses for healing.
At the empty levels, we could then give the Paladin access to bonus Divine feats so that not all Paladins are identical (save for their Divine Bond).
EDIT: Ah looks like Quandary and I are on the same page here. I'd actually just posted the same suggestion in the Overhaul thread (though in different words).
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/design/clericDruidPaladin/paladinHealingChannelPositiveEnergyAndLayOnHan dsCombineTheTwo
How about this? I think it would actually end up fixing a lot of the trouble.
How about this? I think it would actually end up fixing a lot of the trouble.
Fixed the link for you: Paladin Healing: Channel Positive Energy and Lay on Hands - Combine the Two!
I feel as if the /day of PFRPG LOH is a real step back for the game. I mean, LOH used to be so cool because you could choose exactly how to parcel out your healing and heal for exactly as much as you needed.
I agree that some sort of pool encompassing all their abilities would make a whole lot of sense for the pally. It would also give players more flexibility in how they want to play their paladin: do they want to run around curing diseases, or smiting the bad guys?
How about this? I think it would actually end up fixing a lot of the trouble.Fixed the link for you: Paladin Healing: Channel Positive Energy and Lay on Hands - Combine the Two!
I R DUM, apparently. Thanks, heh.
What about making the LOH a swift action when used to heal hp (not when used to cast Remove Disease, Heal, and the other abilities)? This could at least allow the Paladin to smite his foes AND heal his own wounds (or that of his comrades) without wasting his attacks.
Just my 2c.
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What about making the LOH a swift action when used to heal hp (not when used to cast Remove Disease, Heal, and the other abilities)? This could at least allow the Paladin to smite his foes AND heal his own wounds (or that of his comrades) without wasting his attacks.
Just my 2c.
It's still such a minor amount that it's not really helpful, in my playtest I healed my ally at third level from unconcious. I forgo an attack on the enemy just so I could say that I actually tried lay on hands as is in a playtest (I know you've gotten a lot of flack on that end P_R) the enemy kicked him, that's right, an unarmed strike without the feat, rolled a 1 on damage and with his +3 strength mod did more damage with an unarmed strike than I could heal, yes I would've at least gotten to attack, but that still isn't a helpful amount of healing to be worth bothering with.
Maybe if it was increased to level x2 and made a swift action to heal then it would be worth using and it would still not be as good as clerical healing (cause there are always those naysayers who have to whine that only the cleric can be a decent healer)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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One thing about LOH is that I think we need to clarify whether a paladin using 'lay on hands' for healing or for damage can use more than one 'use' of the ability at a time.
Obviously, they can when using those 'uses' to power one of the higher-level effects (which require spending several uses). Why not let em do likewise when curing? Assume a 2nd level paladin with 18 CHA; she could spend all 5 LOH uses at once, curing… 10 points of damage. Hardly gamebreaking.
Assume an 11th level paladin with 22 CHA (when clerics first get heal), she could spend all 11 uses at once to heal 121 points of damage; very slightly more than one heal spell.
True, the PF paladin can do heal at 18th level for 4 'uses,' but that's fine as a class ability to be a more economical application of healing power.
This is something of a look backwards to 3.0/3.5, but with an increase to the total overall pool of healing available (the sample Pal2 CHR 18 could in the olden days heal 8; the Pal 11 CHR 22 could heal 66), which in my mind is to the good.
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I personally disagree with the idea that in combat healing needs to keep up with damage. I would prefer to see the majority of healing take place between combats rather than during. Yes, this means that party members will be rendered unconscious before the end of the fight. Yes, this can be seen as reducing the 'fun' factor for the players of those characters as they are no longer participating in the combat. I feel the fact that as the fight goes on the party's effectiveness is decreased by damage taken adds to the sense of danger and challenge. Others may disagree with this position and it is a matter of personal opinion.
As for Lay on Hands in particular, I see it as more of a field medic's first aid kit as opposed to the field hospital of full healing spells. It's more to keep characters from dying or bring them back to consciousness, not keep them in the fight. Again, this is a matter of opinion and yours my differ. At high levels Lay on Hands exceeds this requirement. At low levels however it is capable of little more than stabilizing a character. It could take DAYS of uses to bring a character from -9 to conscious. I would not be opposed to a modest increase in the number of HP healed. Level x 2 would be fine with me. Still strained for getting a character up and walking, but closer.
Perhaps giving a choice for IN combat vs OUT of combat uses:
IN - Restores 2 x Paladin Level HP
OUT - Converts 4 x Paladin Level normal damage to Non-LethalThe Paladin chooses which to use at the time of use. So if used on a character who is unconscious in combat, the OUT of combat option could be used to stabilize and have them up and about sooner without having them dropped back to unconscious in one hit as soon as they stand up.
Or in my case before they even get a chance to stand up *rolls eyes*
Thanks for at least being with me on my change to level x2 healing even if you don't agree on how we see the paladins lay on hands ability. It's the nature of fair comprimise (I don't agree with this much change, but I'll accept this amount of change) that will help up make Pathfinder the best dang game on the market.
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I want Pathfinder to be the best possible game too. I try to keep my posts subjective and limit the influence of personal (and fairly radical) bias for the greater good of the game.
I do too, but the paladin discussion is getting so much naysaying i feel myself getting snarky sometimes. I hate that, but I really just want this classes abilities to be worth using which if you look at my playtest you can see that they aren't yet. I also try to stay out of discussions about things I haven't dealt with yet like the divine bond.
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1) I'm all behind 2 x Paladin level for Lay on Hands as well. I think that it scales nicely without being overpowering.
2) However, I also think that we really need some clarification from the designers on whether or not you can spend multiple uses of LoH in one go for healing purposes (similar in effect to the pool of 3.5).
If the answer to #2 is "Yes, you can spend multiple uses at once for healing", then I don't care as much about #1. BUT, if the answer to #2 is "No, you can't"... then I think we really need #1 or another option.
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1) I'm all behind 2 x Paladin level for Lay on Hands as well. I think that it scales nicely without being overpowering.
2) However, I also think that we really need some clarification from the designers on whether or not you can spend multiple uses of LoH in one go for healing purposes (similar in effect to the pool of 3.5).
If the answer to #2 is "Yes, you can spend multiple uses at once for healing", then I don't care as much about #1. BUT, if the answer to #2 is "No, you can't"... then I think we really need #1 or another option.
Actually I am in complete agreement with you, but for right now I'm working from the base that no you can't. If you can then I think it works fine as is.
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Reposted:
I believe the paladin's role is to be a fighter type character with some access to holy power. I'll now examine how the paladin compares to other characters in the fighting role:
A paladin, in order to make use of his class abilities, has many stats he has to pay attention to. Charisma is important for spellcasting, smiting, Lay on Hands, Divine Grace, channeling energy. Strength is important for being a good fighter. It is made even more important by the changes to Power Attack - which used to be a feat a paladin could depend on for good extra damage when smiting increased his attack bonus. Constitution is important for good hit points for fighter types. Dexterity, Wisdom, and Intelligence should not be too low, but do not have to be as high as the other stats. Paladins were helped greatly by the reduction of their MAD with regard to Wisdom!
A paladin will not have access to the extra feats available to a fighter or ranger. What does he get to do his job, then?
Smite - I love the concept of smite. But it is simply adding your charisma modifier to attack for 1 round, and adding your level to damage. +20 damage usable 7 times per day is, frankly...useless. Thank goodness the smite attempt is no longer wasted if you miss...that keeps it from being too awful. Smite being able to also act like a banishment at 20th level is a good idea, but it's really too little too late.
Bonded Weapon or Mount: This either gives your paladin a mount - if you spend the feats, this is a viable route for a real iconic character - or a more powerful weapon. The ability to use the mount depends on your campaign, of course. The ability to use the weapon is very useful - it allows dungeon delving paladins to make good use of a class ability, and it saves the paladin some money in upgrading his weapons. This is a good bonus for paladins and helps keep them relevent.
In combat healing ability - this allows the paladin to keep standing when other fighter types might go down...if it provides useful amounts of healing. A paladin may not have access to the same feats or class abilities, and may only have the ability to do a little more damage a few times per day - but at least he can absorb more punishment without clerical backup than your typical fighter...right? Not with the current Lay on Hands ability. Healing himself for 10 hit points of damage at 10th level is not worth a standard action while embroiled in combat. Let's look at the paladin's options.
A 10th level paladin is down from his average of 96 hit points to 25. We'll say he's fighting something he knows to be evil, some demon or something. He can:
Lay on Hands and bring himself up to 35 hit points. Against a CR 10 creature...he might surivive another round. He can attempt to smite. Assuming he already powered up his bonded +3 greatsword with the Holy property, that would be an attack of +19 for damage of 4d6 + 19 (assuming he used bull strength on himself or something) or about 33 damage. Maybe he power attacks with smite for +15 attack, 4d6 + 27 (about 41 damage). If his opponent is not evil, subtract 4 from the attack bonuses and 10 from the damage of those attack options. He could channel energy. If he has selective channelling, he wouldn't heal his opponent either - that would give him 4d6 of healing - or about 14 hp - this will heal his companions as well if they're near him. He could use his one 3rd level spell, if he'd happened to memorize cure moderate wounds, for 2d8 + 5 healing - 14 again!
If the paladin does anything other than grit his teeth and attack, hoping he kills the enemy before he dies himself, he's going to have to retreat from battle and spend a few rounds attending to himself to even hope to get enough healing to wade back into the fray in a condition to fight again.
He can stay in the fight like a fighter would and hope the cleric heals him up before he goes down, but that means his class abilities don't help him fulfill his role in the party. Instead he's just fighter light, with some handy healing to be had outside of combat.
If, on the other hand, Lay on Hands could be used as a swift action, the paladin could heal himself for only a measly 10 hit points, but he'd still be able to attack, or move and attack, or charge. This would operate almost as if he had 10 temporary hit points, renewable each round until he ran out of Lay on Hand uses. Or maybe he can use a number of Lay on Hand uses equal to his charisma modifier as a standard action for 40 points of healing mid-combat. That would at least make it a choice between somewhat comparable standard action uses.
As is, the concept of the paladin is a holy warrior, bouyed by his god and fearless in the face of the enemy - but his healing abilities simply don't allow him to fulfill that concept on the battlefield.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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What about another way to manage the lay on hands healing? Let the paladin heal his whole pool of hp as one standard action, but add a limit that they can only lay on hands once per day for any creature, and still keep the current number of uses per day? This would also go a long way towards making the Paladin a viable party healer without a cleric in the group.
Maybe this would give too much heailng, but it's easy to adjust the amount to make it fit. Perhaps CHA bonus * paladin level at the current number of times per day.
Directed towards the LOH healing.
Reading this thread, the thought popped into my head (literally), of why they get Heal but not the other cure spells for LOH.
What would you all think of the LOH providing healing per use, with the level equivalent "cure spell" that the paladin would have access to if he were a cleric of his level?
this means:
1d8+1 at level 1
1d8+2 at level 2
2d8+3 at level 3 (level 2 cure spell)
and so on, up to the "capstone" LOH healing ability of HEAL.
This means your level 10 paladin using LOH to heal himself would do:
4d8+10 for an average of 28. nearly 3 times what he can do now.
(of course, after that, it remains 4d8+level until you get to the Heal ability, but at least for the first 8-10 levels LoH would be flat out useful in and of itself.)
Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?
-S
What would you all think of the LOH providing healing per use, with the level equivalent "cure spell" that the paladin would have access to if he were a cleric of his level?
this means:
1d8+1 at level 1
1d8+2 at level 2
2d8+3 at level 3 (level 2 cure spell)
and so on, up to the "capstone" LOH healing ability of HEAL.This means your level 10 paladin using LOH to heal himself would do:
4d8+10 for an average of 28. nearly 3 times what he can do now.
It seems a simple and elegant solution. The Paladin would not be a powerful healer like a Cleric, but he could still lend a fair amount of healing to his group (and well, to himself...).
Maybe at 12th level (or some point after 10 but before they get Heal) they could gain the ability to Maximize their healing at the cost of 1 or 2 extra LOH points.
(the reason being- to keep LOH usable. at 10 they are doin 30 or so damage but at 15 they are only doing 5 points more despite critter damage going up substantially.. making that 4d8 into 32+15 (at 15).
Idle thoughts, anyhoo.
-S
Psychic Robot:
Did you have that #3 there the whole time? 'cuz I didn't think I saw it when I first read the post.. hrm
I mean, dang. I know I miss things when I was reading sometimes, but I didn't think I was /blind/.
-S
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Psychic Robot:
Did you have that #3 there the whole time? 'cuz I didn't think I saw it when I first read the post.. hrm
I mean, dang. I know I miss things when I was reading sometimes, but I didn't think I was /blind/.
-S
He had it the whole time, I was actually surprised when you suggested it as if it was new lol.
I really didn't see it.
Oi.. I guess I need to take a loong break or somethin'
-S
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I am intrigued by a couple of ideas here.
I like the LOH as a swift action, and I also like the using multiple uses. However, I am not comfortable with a character that can heal themselves _and_ attack as normal. So what I propose is this.
1 use of LOH can be done as a swift action.
As a standard the player may use 2 or more uses of LOH.
a few Hp's And and attack or a bunch of HP's and no attack.
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I am intrigued by a couple of ideas here.
I like the LOH as a swift action, and I also like the using multiple uses. However, I am not comfortable with a character that can heal themselves _and_ attack as normal. So what I propose is this.
1 use of LOH can be done as a swift action.
As a standard the player may use 2 or more uses of LOH.a few Hp's And and attack or a bunch of HP's and no attack.
That's actually not a bad idea.
honestly I'd still rather have levelx2 and a swift action to heal.
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UPDATE ALERT: A REVISED VERSION OF THE BETA PALADIN HAS BEEN POSTED BY JASON ON THIS THREAD.
Check it out, and save yourselves debating changes that have already occurred!