Most of us know that there will be a re-do of the PrCs in the DM guide. I would like to start talks about suggestions and get a build started form such suggestions.
Here are my starting ideas.
1. Ignore Arcane spell chance failure for light armor and light/bucker shields.
2. D6 hit die but Toughness as a bonus feat.
5. No level cap, they can get full casting in both.
6. Good will only, but Iron will as a bonus feat.
Some more odd ideas.
x/day ability that allows you to use your higher casting stat as a base for ether spells.
Take things from the Geomancy PrC for combining arcane and divine spell casting.
???
Anyone interested at all?
Most powerful? Oi.
They were easily *far* less powerful than either of their base classes taken to 20 because you either had both at 15 or one at 17 and the other at 13. Neither is terribly effective. They get more options and can last longer- as long as the creature they are fighting doesn't have SR or have good saves, they may do alright.. But the most powerful?
What I would suggest changing- if anything- is that their CL = their Character level for each class, for the purposes of overcoming SR. That alone would go a long way towards making them fairly handy.
Keep in mind that the PrC is a 10, meaning the guy can still get 5 levels of other stuff from each class. (or a few more from one, for a few less in the other, as is the pleasure of the player).
I wouldn't give them 10 free levels of "arcane features" or clerical domains for the simple reason that it would defeat some of the stated purpose of those abilities being given- which was to make keeping to core class more attractive than dipping out or PrC'ing.
-S
A couple of the suggestions in particular aren't working for me - the bonus feats of Iron Will and Toughness. The Mystic Theurge is built out of two high-will classes, one of which usually has Wisdom as a key stat, so their Will save is going to be quite high.
It's possible to build a Mystic Theurge with an absurd will save, or that can use armor while casting, or that has a lot of hit points - through feats.
If Mystic Theurge needs a bump, it should be in the areas where it's broken. Normally, I'd say "or the player needs more options", but I don't think that Mystic Theurge has an option problem.
1) Character level as caster level works, or just two 'practiced spellcaster' bonus feats
2) Extending the progression past 10th level
I'd like to see something like the Ultimate Magus - slightly easier entry requirements than Mystic Theurge, and take the level advancement hit over the class progression, with some goodies thrown in along the way, like built in caster level bumps.
Essentially, Ultimate Magus with the option of 2nd level divine/1st level arcane or vice versa as entry requirements.
It's possible to build a Mystic Theurge with an absurd will save, or that can use armor while casting, or that has a lot of hit points - through feats.
OK, I made a mistake. I meant for it to be Great Fortitude feat not the Iron Will feat, as to symbolized the cleric influenced.
As to the armor casting? It only makes sense, and I don't think it is over powering, while one class can cast in heavy armor with no minuses, one can't wear any armor, you think a combination of the two would at least be able to cast in light with no problems, and with light shields.
I'm not sure that the mystic theurge will get many extras... I think that they were already one of the more powerful PrCs in v3.5. If they do get any benefit, saying that domains, arcane schools, and bloodline powers increase as if you were gaining levels in both the arcane and divine classes would probably be good.
Otherwise, the only thing that I can think of is their HD... I can't remember if it was a d4 or a d6 in the DMG, but if it was a d4 it should probably be increased to line it up with the other classes.
The new Hit Die: Base Attack rule stats that they would get a D6 hit die.
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I'm not sure that the mystic theurge will get many extras... I think that they were already one of the more powerful PrCs in v3.5. If they do get any benefit, saying that domains, arcane schools, and bloodline powers increase as if you were gaining levels in both the arcane and divine classes would probably be good.
Otherwise, the only thing that I can think of is their HD... I can't remember if it was a d4 or a d6 in the DMG, but if it was a d4 it should probably be increased to line it up with the other classes.
True it is quite a powerful PrC, but if you look at the two similar PrCs for the Warlock they get a whole lot more benefits than just increased Spell Casting Level in both classes. I think giving them more to match the Eldritch Theurge and Eldritch Disciple would be an excellent idea. Although no "new" abilities. Basically I think you've hit it spot on the head what it should be. An increase in things like Channeling, Bloodline powers, Arcane Schools and Domains is what should happen (toned down a little maybe). Also their HD should be upped to d6 from d4 to match PFRPG BAB vs HD Rules.
I'd be very much against giving them advancement in bloodline, school, or domain powers; that undermines the entire purpose of giving those abilities in the first place (to promote single-classing).
That said, I'd keep the entry requirements the same, increase HD to d6, and give them a new class feature making CL in each class = sum of divine + arcane spellcasting levels.
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I don't know Kirth, I think your idea makes the PrC too attractive. I agree a boost is needed, but giving them equal spell levels to a single class might be a bit much. Perhaps just a flat bonus to caster level or saves?
Or, the ability to cast 2 spells per round 1/day per PrC level, which overcomes the classes greatest weakness?
I don't know Kirth, I think your idea makes the PrC too attractive. I agree a boost is needed, but giving them equal spell levels to a single class might be a bit much. Perhaps just a flat bonus to caster level or saves?
The former was more or less what I proposed, except scaling instead of flat: A wizard 5/cleric 3/mystic theurge 10 would get spells per day as a 15th level wizard and 13th level cleric, but would cast both at CL 18th. (If the Practiced Spellcaster feat were OGL, I'd actually have recommended that as a bonus feat instead.)
I'd be very much against giving them advancement in bloodline, school, or domain powers; that undermines the entire purpose of giving those abilities in the first place (to promote single-classing).
That said, I'd keep the entry requirements the same, increase HD to d6, and give them a new class feature making CL in each class = sum of divine + arcane spellcasting levels.
Good points, and I like that idea.
OK, I made a mistake. I meant for it to be Great Fortitude feat not the Iron Will feat, as to symbolized the cleric influenced.
I gotcha. That makes a lot more sense. Still not what I would add, but not something I particularly object to.
As to the armor casting? It only makes sense, and I don't think it is over powering, while one class can cast in heavy armor with no minuses, one can't wear any armor, you think a combination of the two would at least be able to cast in light with no problems, and with light shields.
I can see where you're coming from, but there is already a feat progression for it. That feat progression does block quickened spells, though, and the mystic theurge does have a kajillion spells so they might want to go the quickened route.
Is it worth trying to rebuild the Mystic Theurge as a class with fewer, but higher level, spells?
Maybe something like this?
requirements:
Knowledge(arcana) 3 Knowledge(religion) 3
Must be able to cast 2nd level divine and 2nd level arcane spells
Magical Aptitude feat
BAB: Poor
HD: d6
Will: Good
Fort: Poor
Ref: Poor
level -- ability
1 -- Merged Casting
Spell level progression
2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 -- Class level -- Probable Charater Level
3 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 -- (1st) -- 7th
4 - 3 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 -- (2nd) -- 8th
5 - 4 - 3 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 -- (3rd) -- 9th
6 - 5 - 3 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 -- (4th) -- 10th
6 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 0 - 0 - 0 -- (5th) -- 11th
7 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 2 - 0 - 0 -- (6th) -- 12th
7 - 6 - 5 - 5 - 3 - 0 - 0 -- (7th) -- 13th
7 - 7 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 2 - 0 -- (8th) -- 14th
7 - 7 - 6 - 6 - 4 - 3 - 0 -- (9th) -- 15th
7 - 7 - 7 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 2 -- (10th) -- 16th
Merged Casting -- A mystic thuerge combines their arcane and divine caster level for the purposes of their caster level for both classes and this class. Their combined caster level is also used for determining uses of class abilities already gained from both their arcane and divine caster classes but does not count towards acquiring new abilities for either class.
Spellcasting -- A mystic thuerge gains spells on the progression shown. If either of the classes that where used to gain entrance to mystic theurge require spell preperation then all mystic theurge spells require spell preperation, if one class used to gain entrance to mystic theurge requires a spellbook the the mystic theurge must maintain a spell book of all his spells. Mystic theurge spells maybe choosen from the spell list of either class that the mystic theurge used to enter this prestige class. A mystic thuerge may use either of his primary casting ability scores (from the classes used to enter the mystic thuerge prestige class) for purposes of spell DC, and highest level spell known. A mystic theurge gains bonus spells from both of his primary casting abilities scores.
Here are the new perks:
1. Only has to worry about 1 ability score.
2. Gains 1 extra spell level (8th instead of 7th).
3. Basically gains spells on a sorcerer progression (with more spells per day).
4. Caster levels stack basically giving character level as caster level.
5. Caster level counts for abilities already gained NOT new abilities.
Drawbacks
2. Slightly fewer total spells per day.
Problems
1. Sorcerers limited spells known.
Here's the thing with MT: on a purely mechanical level, it's pretty solid. BUT flavorwise it out right sucks.
You guys say "no new class features" but that's exactly what the MT needs: Class features that somehow blends casting from the two sources of magic in a setting: Arcane and Divine.
With most multi-classing, the character is either: trying to enter into PrC he's heard about(such as a wizard/sorc or fighter MCing to become a Eldritch Knight or Spellsword), has focused his skills into a similar are of his current class(such a Druid becoming a Ranger or a Rogue going Bard), or something else that is somehow easily explainable.
BUT to make the decision to go from Cleric to Wizard, or Sorc to Druid(or any other variation thereof) one of the following is usually the cause: the character experiences something very profound and becomes pious, the character somehow unlocks latent, hidden powers or the character spends hours and hours, days and weeks pouring over tomes and studying formulae.
Right now the MT does not reflect such a big change in character evolution, and that needs to change.
First off, I'd just make it a 14 level class. Yes, 14 is a wonky number and most PRCs go to ten, but going higher isn't without precedent. I know casting 9th level spells in both classes scares some people, but it's a long, crappy road to get there.
I'm against giving it the class features of either class for the same reason as Kirth, but I definately would like to see it get a couple (albeit ONLY a couple) features of its own.
How about armored casting of arcane spells?
Or, better yet, because MAD becomes ridiculous for dual casters, how about, at a certain level, they begin using the highest of their casting stats for both classes (IE, a sorcerer/cleric could use Wisdom to determine the highest spell level possible, save DC, etc. for sorcerer spells)?
First off, I'd just make it a 14 level class. Yes, 14 is a wonky number and most PRCs go to ten, but going higher isn't without precedent. I know casting 9th level spells in both classes scares some people, but it's a long, crappy road to get there.
I'm against giving it the class features of either class for the same reason as Kirth, but I definately would like to see it get a couple (albeit ONLY a couple) features of its own.
How about armored casting of arcane spells?
Or, better yet, because MAD becomes ridiculous for dual casters, how about, at a certain level, they begin using the highest of their casting stats for both classes (IE, a sorcerer/cleric could use Wisdom to determine the highest spell level possible, save DC, etc. for sorcerer spells)?
Great ideas. I have also suggested giving them great fortitude, and toughness to what they have already.
You guys say "no new class features" but that's exactly what the MT needs: Class features that somehow blends casting from the two sources of magic in a setting: Arcane and Divine.
Can we dock one or more caster levels in exchange for these abilities, without crippling the class? What I'd like to avoid is the creation of a PrC that gives you everything a base class does, plus more. Example: 3.5 Radiant Servant of Pelor. You got full spellcasting progression, full turning progression, full cleric BAB and HD... in short, everything you would have gotten by staying a cleric, but then you also got a suite of special features on top of all that. The question is, "why NOT be a radiant servant?" And the only answer to that was, "Uh, flavor?"
Abjurant Champion was another one that irked me. You got full BAB, d10 HD, full spellcasting progression, automatic quickened spells, automatic extended spells, and a host of other benefits. The only drawback? 5 levels didn't go to another PrC.
What I'd like to avoid is the creation of a PrC that gives you everything a base class does, plus more. Example: 3.5 Radiant Servant of Pelor. You got full spellcasting progression, full turning progression, full cleric BAB and HD... in short, everything you would have gotten by staying a cleric, but then you also got a suite of special features on top of all that.
The Radiant Servant of Pelor has a slightly smaller hit die (1d6, not 1d8).
That is a bold-faced lie, you liar!!![/bigger]
The Radiant Servant of Pelor has a slightly smaller hit die (1d6, not 1d8).
You are obviously full of fail, made of suck, and also got hit with the doo-doo-head stick!!! With 3/4 BAB, they automatically get d8 HD, per Pathfinder rules! So there! Bow down before my scintillating Radiant Intellect of Pelor, lest I smite you with the Invincible Snotty Snark of Comic-Book Guy!
Or, the ability to cast 2 spells per round 1/day per PrC level, which overcomes the classes greatest weakness?
In the interest of fairness and full disclosure, that was actually Jal Dorak's suggestion, not mine. I had recommended a simple effective caster-level boost, along the lines of the Practiced Spellcaster feat (but for both spellcasting classes).
I like the second low-level spell a round, but I'd start it at first level. The zero level spells aren't really worth trying to adjudicate.
I'm in total agreement with Monkeygod that a big problem with the existing MT is lack of flavor.
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Here's the thing with MT: on a purely mechanical level, it's pretty solid. BUT flavorwise it out right sucks.
Couldn't agree more... a prestige class should grant new abilities in line with the classes intended purpose...
In addition as a prestige class, the requirements for entry are a bit more stringent then going 20 with a straight class.
The MT is a weaker caster in both cases then the divine or arcane caster going straight 20. The biggest benefit of this is a larger range of spells, but again you are looking at difficult entry requirements and an unlinked primary caster attribute.
What I would like to see...
D6 hps
Wizard BAB progression (weak)
fort/ref (weak)
will (good)
skills 4+/level (this class has a huge array of skills, and should be able to continue that like a loremaster)
10 full casting levels...for each...
Now what makes it special...
1. Casting Focus: A one time boost to the players choice either divine or arcane class, adding four full caster levels up to the players HD. This would grant spells per day and spells known. Effectively giving you full casting powers in one class, without the bonus abilities in the single class.
2. Magical Combination: A MT's spells are treated as both divine and arcane with the benefits and drawbacks that implies. In addition this makes your spells harder to resist (+2 caster level for overcoming SR, and -4 for dispel attempts as this is unfamiliar magic)
3. Focused Study: Both your arcane and divine spells now use a single ability score for casting, chosen by the player. Meaning that a wizard/cleric/MT could choose either Intelligence or Wisdom to base spellcasting stat, this would include max spell level able to cast, and bonus spells.
4. Empowered Metamagic: you may sacrifice up to 1 spell slot/memorized spell level equal to half of MT level per round. By doing so you may offset an equal number of levels to use towards metamagic. Effectively an 8th level MT could sacrifice a 4th level divine or arcane spell slot to maximize the spell he is casting. This is a swift action.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/pathfinderPrCsAreTheyAvialableNow
Check it out MT is out.
Not what I expected.
Check it out MT is out.
Not what I expected.
Linkied it for ya! (And gave an updated URL.)