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Originally I thought to use the Wisdom modifier instead, but feared outrage over the "multiple stat dependency" mindset.
As for the number of round, I used the same as the Alternate Rage version for a consistent mechanic, I am all for making mechanics consistant for ease of memorization. One of the things that bugged me with 3.5 was that some feats used the same prefix but offered diffent modifiers. For example, Improved Initiative was +4 to INIT, but Improved Trip granted a +4 to the attack and a free attack. Extra Rage raised it's relevant ability by two times, Extra Stunning by three times, and Extra Turning by four.
You know I never thought about it, but that was annoying, if they had the same prefix and the same type of bonus I wouldn't have always double checked every feat every time I considered taking it. Hasn't Jason B unified the improved (other that init) and the Extras?
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As it stands, all the Pathfinder "Improved" feats dealing with CMB have a unified mechanic; they all grant "+2 to X attack type and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity" consistantly. Alas, Improved Initiative grants a +4 throwing off complete unification.
Pathfinder has made it easier by far to memorize the "Improved X" feat, though.
The "Extra X" feats still need some work to make them a consistant mechanic; a consistant mechanic for the X abilites (Rage, Smite, Turning, Wildshape, Ki, etc.) would help smooth that out.
I'm probably not going to get a chance before tuesday afternoon, at the earliest, to recompile this thread for ease of reading due to schedule issues, if someone wants to copy my previous one into a new compilation.
That said, I'd probably try to unify the list from the Alpha thread with the existing mechanic running with the compilation I posted earlier, just to see the two side by side, and give two views of potential mechanics.
I must say that I enjoyed reading the ideas here and it seems like they might really work out. I have heard a lot of people say the Paladin needs something and this might have hit the nail on the head.
Not having play tested a Beta Pally yet, I don't have a whole lot to add to the discussion but I hope to get the opportunity soon.
Thanks for the excellent ideas.
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After some thought, I realize the only downside to Smite as a "X rounds per day" mechanic.
Rage has a safety installed; fatigue. What would be the safety for Smite effects?
The obvious one is theat they only work on Evil creatures with additional effects or feats allowing them to affect Outsiders, Elelmentals, or Undead (much like Turn Outsider or Turn Elemental from the Alpha testing... what happened to them?).
Any other ideas?
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Looking through the posts here (and elsewhere), I would like to remind all who have worked on the Smite effects that they shouldn't "step on the toes" of the player who chooses Divine Bond with the celestial spirit weapon option.
If effects replace the need for that option too much, than no one would ever take it, effectively negating it as an option.
Example:
A Smite effect that ignores DR for Evil creatures means that no pladin would ever take the Holy property for his weapon. In essence, the Smite effect would circumvent the need.
A Pathfinder paladin gets rewarded for advancing as a straight paladin with various auras as well (Aura of Courage, Aura of Righteousness, etc.) with the capstone of Holy Champion granting them DR 10/Evil. Any effects that tap into these kinds of powers earlier weakens the paladin later.
As we work on this option, we must be mindful of the class abilities of the Pathfinder paladin as a whole... not just the Smite ability.
I don't know when a paladin gets his or her extra smites as they go up in level, so I'll ask lastknightleft to make them go at the right levelHow does that look?
Great!
Doesn't Holy cause auto-confirms to crit threats? Or am I thinking of the Holy Sword spell?
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Looking through the posts here (and elsewhere), I would like to remind all who have worked on the Smite effects that they shouldn't "step on the toes" of the player who chooses Divine Bond with the celestial spirit weapon option.
If effects replace the need for that option too much, than no one would ever take it, effectively negating it as an option.
Example:
A Smite effect that ignores DR for Evil creatures means that no pladin would ever take the Holy property for his weapon. In essence, the Smite effect would circumvent the need.A Pathfinder paladin gets rewarded for advancing as a straight paladin with various auras as well (Aura of Courage, Aura of Righteousness, etc.) with the capstone of Holy Champion granting them DR 10/Evil. Any effects that tap into these kinds of powers earlier weakens the paladin later.
As we work on this option, we must be mindful of the class abilities of the Pathfinder paladin as a whole... not just the Smite ability.
I thought the holy propery also added extra damage against evil creatures, and I'm pretty sure that it doesn't auto-confirm criticals. As an aside, the incredibly limited # of smites means it's impossible to step on divine bonds toes. A smite is a single round. Divine bond will most likely affect every attack in a combat. For example at fifth level when you get your divine bond you'll have two smites. Are you telling me you wouldn't add holy to your weapon because for two attacks you can ignore DR
I do agree that we have to be careful. I just think your example doesn't really stack up.
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I'm probably not going to get a chance before tuesday afternoon, at the earliest, to recompile this thread for ease of reading due to schedule issues, if someone wants to copy my previous one into a new compilation.
That said, I'd probably try to unify the list from the Alpha thread with the existing mechanic running with the compilation I posted earlier, just to see the two side by side, and give two views of potential mechanics.
A compiled list would be great for my upcoming playtest. Thanks!
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As an aside, the incredibly limited # of smites means it's impossible to step on divine bonds toes. A smite is a single round.
I was basing that on the idea of imitating the alternate Rage that Jason proposed. Under this mechanic, Rage lasts X rounds per day, instead of a number of rounds and a number of times per day. In essence, it gets rid of the "middleman" - X per day.
Likewise, a similar version of Smite would make Smite last for a number of rounds per day; no limit to the times per day, just rounds.
Now add in Smite effects, that work much like the alternate version of Rage powers.
This means that a Smite effect could be applied for all the rounds that a Smite is being used or a paladin could switch out his Smite effect for another that he knows on a round per round basis (at least until he has used his daily allotment of Smite rounds!)
For more on how the alternate Rage works here is a link.
Thus the safety for Smite (and Smite effects) being that they only apply to Evil creatures.
As for the rest, the Holy property granted by Divine Bond could be too easily replaced by a Smite effect that duplicates it. That was where my concern came from.
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Dispelling Smite: At 7th level a paladin that hits with a smite attempt may make a targeted dispel magic caster check as per the dispel magic spell. His caster level for the purposes of this check is his paladin level + his cha mod
<head spins>
Whooahh!
I like the idea, but lose the CHA bonus to caster level.
No-one else adds a stat modifier to caster level checks, as far as I know, and if they did, it would be equally over the top.
Increasing the effective caster level of the dispel, to paladin level (rather than level/2, as for casting), means he has a 50/50 chance to drop all (non-permanent-item) effects on an enemy caster of equal level (more chance vs effects from scrolls/potions/wands/minions).
That's pretty darn good.
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Dispelling Smite: At 7th level a paladin that hits with a smite attempt may make a targeted dispel magic caster check as per the dispel magic spell. His caster level for the purposes of this check is his paladin level + his cha mod<head spins>
Whooahh!
I like the idea, but lose the CHA bonus to caster level.
No-one else adds a stat modifier to caster level checks, as far as I know, and if they did, it would be equally over the top.Increasing the effective caster level of the dispel, to paladin level (rather than level/2, as for casting), means he has a 50/50 chance to drop all (non-permanent-item) effects on an enemy caster of equal level (more chance vs effects from scrolls/potions/wands/minions).
That's pretty darn good.
I know that, but right now I'm working with the idea that smites are staying 1/day with a total of 7 at level 20, and lasting a maximum of 1 round per smite. Under those conditions if the dispelling quality was based purely on caster level there are good chances that you'll not dispell things which means your smite goes back to being thouroughly lackluster extra damage. It needs to be that good. If smite damage becomes that much more impressive, or it lasts for multiple rounds, or it gives more than 1 per day at first level I would actually be editing it myself to tone it down. but unitl one of those changes goes through I have to disagree and say it needs that kind of bump to be a worthwile effect for a 7th level paladin who has a whoping 3 smites per day.
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As an aside, the incredibly limited # of smites means it's impossible to step on divine bonds toes. A smite is a single round.I was basing that on the idea of imitating the alternate Rage that Jason proposed. Under this mechanic, Rage lasts X rounds per day, instead of a number of rounds and a number of times per day. In essence, it gets rid of the "middleman" - X per day.
Likewise, a similar version of Smite would make Smite last for a number of rounds per day; no limit to the times per day, just rounds.
Now add in Smite effects, that work much like the alternate version of Rage powers.
This means that a Smite effect could be applied for all the rounds that a Smite is being used or a paladin could switch out his Smite effect for another that he knows on a round per round basis (at least until he has used his daily allotment of Smite rounds!)
For more on how the alternate Rage works here is a link.
Thus the safety for Smite (and Smite effects) being that they only apply to Evil creatures.
As for the rest, the Holy property granted by Divine Bond could be too easily replaced by a Smite effect that duplicates it. That was where my concern came from.
Ah well see you're approaching from a point that if they do that they need to do this, you have to say so when you make your original point, otherwise you'll just keep throwing people off. Also Jason has already implied that he wants to keep it a uses per day power so I don't think that what you are talking about has too much chance of happening. still under the caveat that he does adopt the system you are talking about I agree that yes we have to be careful in our design not to step on divine bonds toes.
So, sticking with the assumption that you pick another ability of any list up to your current level each time you get another smite per day, and can use them however you wish, here's the new list, along with my reservations/issues in Bold. I didn't convert the Alpha list over since there's a couple different mechanics involved, and I wasn't about to rework the entire paladin just for the sake of Smiting. I've already got a fix I like, and I'm only doing this for ease of archival/playtest/brainstorming.
I've also got this in a wordpad file I can email to people if need be, just request it and give me an address to send it to. Are there PMs here? How do I check them if so? *Goes off to investigate*
Level 1
- Smite the Unbeliever: Doom if target is evil, Will save DC= 10+ 1/2 paladin level+ cha mod.
- Hampering Smite: At first level a paladin may make a hampering smite. If he deals damage with this smite the enemy must make a fort save DC = 10 + 1/2 paladin level + cha mod. If he fails his speed is reduced by 10ft, and he may not make 5 foot steps.
- Frightening Smite: At first level a paladin may make a frightening smite. If he successfully deals damage with his smite the enemy must make a will save DC = 10 + 1/2 paladin level + cha mod or be shaken for 1d4 rounds.
- Overwhelming Smite: At first level when a paladin hits with an overwhelming smite, he gets a free bullrush attempt against the target of his smite. This does not provoke an AoO, if successful he may make a free 5 foot step to follow as long as it is not difficult terrain.
- Focused Smite: At first level the paladin may make a focused smite, this smite ignores partial cover.
- Seeking Smite: At first level the paladin may make a seeking smite, this smite ignores concealment less than total. I still don't like this at all. This is a first level ability that, while only lasting one smite, negates several second level spells (blur, invisibility, etc), and potentially opens up the door to negate spells like Mirror Image depending on DM adjudication. I can see a lot of abuse coming out of this, through things like "I Seeking Smite the invisible guy that I know is somewhere around me". Even if it's required you know where the guy is, it needs to be reworded. This is too strong for a level 1 effect for what it grants, unless it was restricted to things like low-visibility from lighting effects of obscuring mist or something. This needs a change.
Level 2 - No Ability
Level 3 - No Ability
Level 4
- Rule of Law: Sound Burst if target is chaotic, will save DC= 10+ 1/2 paladin level+ cha mod
- Brilliant Smite: At 4th level a paladin may attempt to hit a foe with a Brilliant Smite. If the smite hits, the target must make a fortitude save, DC= 10+ 1/2 paladin level+ cha mod, or be blinded for 1 round as the smiting blow erupts in a cascade of holy light. Any evil creatures within 10 feet of the target are dazzled for 1 round (no save).
- Stunning Smite: At fourth level a paladin may choose to make stunning smites. When he hits with an attack in this round the enemy struck must make a fort save DC= 10+ 1/2 paladin level+ cha mod. If he fails he is stunned for 1 round.
- Unstoppable Smite: At fourth level if the paladin has focused smite he may make an unstoppable smite, this smite ignores total cover. For the record, I see this as possibly abusable through striking through doors, walls, etc. since they grant total cover
- Unerring Smite: At fourth level if the paladin has Seeking smite he may make an Unerring smite, this smite ignores all concealment. Same issues I had with Seeking Smite, except the only way to get 100% conceal is to be on the ethereal, since even invisibility only grants a 50% conceal. So it's effectively a free hit on an invisible foe on the ethereal, which is pretty much just throwing Ghost Touch onto the Seeking Smite ability. See that ability for issues.
Level 5 - No Ability
Level 6 - No Ability
Level 7
- Dispelling Smite: At 7th level a paladin that deals damage with a smite attempt may make a targeted dispel magic caster check as per the dispel magic spell. His caster level for the purposes of this check is his paladin level.
- Wracking Smite: At 7th level, when a paladin successfully hits an evil creature with his smiting attack, the target must make a fortitude save, DC = 10 + 1/2 paladin level + cha mod, or be nauseated for 1 round, wracked by the agony of its own sin turning upon it.
- Breaching Smite: at 7th level a paladin may make a breaching smite. He ignores any DR or hardness when making his attacks. still advocating making this "may treat DR or Hardness of his target as reduced by his paladin class level for any attacks he makes this round" instead. I see a level 7 ability blowing through the hardness of adamantine to be a little silly, personally.
- Impeding Smite: At 7th level, if the paladin already has Hampering Smite, he may make an impeding strike. If he damages the enemy, they get a fort save DC = 15 + 1/2 paladin level + cha mod. If the enemy fails he may only move at half speed and may not take 5 foot steps. Duration?
- Improved stunning smite: A 7th level paladin with the stunning smite ability may make an improved stunning smite. This ability functions just like Stunning Smite except that the save is 15+ 1/2 paladin level + cha mod, and the duration lasts 1d4 rounds.
- Chain of Smiting: At 7th level the paladin may make a chain of smiting. The paladin may choose a first level smite effect and make an attack, if the smite hits the smite may continue beyond the first target to affect another evil creature within 10' of the paladin's choosing. Only smite damage (and the chosen smite effect) is carried over, and if the paladin chooses a non-evil creature the chain is wasted. Note: Also, I recommend upping the smite damage to 1d6 for every 2 paladin levels, minimum 1d6. This makes the Chain of Smiting ability worthwhile.
Level 8 - No Ability
Level 9 - No Ability
Level 10
- Debilitating Smite: At 10th level, if the paladin already has impeding smite he may make a debilitating smite. This ability functions just like Stunning Smite, except that the save is DC=20 + half paladin level+ cha mod, and if the enemy fails his speed is reduced to 5 feet and may not use full round actions (standard and move only). I'm not sure I understand the logic behind no full-round actions. If you are intent on preventing the individual moving more than 5 feet, put in some mumbo-jumbo about the "powers of Good binding his movement speed to 5 ft", so it can't be enhanced by things such as exped. retreat or the like. Also, DC of 30+ cha at minimum seems a little high to me, can anyone pull some positive proof one way or the other though? MM comparisons might be good.
Level 11 - No Ability
Level 12 - No Ability
Level 13
-Smite of Power: Divine Power on paladin if target is evil divine caster. I still need an explanation on this one to understand what is meant here.
- Wave of Smiting: At 13th level if the paladin has chain of smiting as a full round action he may make a wave of smiting. He may choose up to a 4th level rider effect and sends out a wave of positive energy, dealing smite damage to all evil creatures within 10', plus any non-damage smite effect chosen. Need a defined list of "rider" effects, for simplicity's sake.
Level 14 - No Ability
Level 15 - No Ability
Level 16
- Truedeath Smite: Disruption (as Disrupting Weapon) if target is evil undead. I personally think this is weak for a level 16 ability.
- Smite of Final Judgment: At 16th level, when a paladin successfully hits an evil creature with his smiting attack, the target must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 paladin level + cha mod) or be disintegrated. Either this save needs to be brought in line with every other save, or this ability needs to be reworked.
Level 17 - No Ability
Level 18 - No Ability
Level 19
- Holy Champion: Banishment if target is evil outsider. Dunno if anyone would use this when they could just disintegrate them 3 levels earlier.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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list of smite suggestions
FWIW, I would suggest to regularize all smite saves to the standard saving throw mechanic of DC 10 + 1/2 level + stat modifier (CHA for paladin smites).
Also, as for the seeking and unerring smites:
1. The pal would still have to choose to attack the correct square. If not, the attack auto-misses and the ability is never activated.
2. If you want to simplify the description, say that:
a. Seeking smite ignores concealment less than total concealment (so anything involving blind/invis/etc. would trump it, but it would still negate the 20% miss chance from blur, entropic shield, close range in obscuring mist or darkness, etc.)
b. Unerring smite could ignore 50% miss chance.
c. As with #1 above, you still have to find the right square, or it's a moot point. That's where detect evil might come in, as it allows you to pinpoint location on the 3rd round (though I have suggested elsewhere that a paladin's DE ability could use a boost in speed and efficiency, if not at baseline then perhaps through a feat or higher-level class ability).
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Hey McPoyo, your friendly rules lawyer player here, The DC for the 10th level smite is not 30+cha, its 20+ half paladin level+ cha mod. Which means if he takes it at level ten the DC is 25+cha (unless I'm mistaken the average cha mod at 10th level would be +5/+6 so a DC of 30/31 doesn't seem so unreasonable to me, maybe it does to others), keep in mind he is supposed to have taken two other smite effects as a prerequisite and those smite effects are now kinda wasted since he has this one now. As for durations for all of them I had meant it to be until healed, sorry I missed that.
The concealment one, I agree that I think the intention was for the first level one to ignore 20% miss chance from concealment (and that you have to know the enemy is there) and the second was supposed to be the 50% (same caveat, and I like that detect evil cross refrence Jason Nelson, good call).
As to beating 2nd level spells, good. Keep in mind he has a very limited # of uses, and for once not being pawned by a spellcaster who takes two rounds to buff (or god forbid buffs before the fight cause lord knows that never happens) would be a nice thing. Still in the interest of fairness
How many people think it should be moved to 4th level?
For my part I don't think so, it's not that many things that have concealment that this is really more of an anti-spellcaster effect and spellcasters have other options for defense so it's not even shutting them all down.
The idea of adding effects to Smite Evil is an intriguing one. Here's my suggestions:
Blinding Light When you hit an evil foe with your smite attempt, it must succeed on a Fort DC = 10 + 1/2 Paladin level + Cha modifier or be blinded for 1d4 rounds.
Mighty Smite Whenever you roll a critical threat on any smite attempt, it is automatically confirmed when used against an evil foe.
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The idea of adding effects to Smite Evil is an intriguing one. Here's my suggestions:
Blinding Light When you hit an evil foe with your smite attempt, it must succeed on a Fort DC = 10 + 1/2 Paladin level + Cha modifier or be blinded for 1d4 rounds.
Mighty Smite Whenever you roll a critical threat on any smite attempt, it is automatically confirmed when used against an evil foe.
You don't really need to add the caveat of "when used against an evil foe." smite evil only ever works against evil foes. saying it again is redundant. Unless like wierd al yankovich your new years resolution is to "be more redundant" in which case sorry for stepping on your toes.
You don't really need to add the caveat of "when used against an evil foe." smite evil only ever works against evil foes. saying it again is redundant. Unless like wierd al yankovich your new years resolution is to "be more redundant" in which case sorry for stepping on your toes.The idea of adding effects to Smite Evil is an intriguing one. Here's my suggestions:
Blinding Light When you hit an evil foe with your smite attempt, it must succeed on a Fort DC = 10 + 1/2 Paladin level + Cha modifier or be blinded for 1d4 rounds.
Mighty Smite Whenever you roll a critical threat on any smite attempt, it is automatically confirmed when used against an evil foe.
The emphasis of "against evil foes," is my personal way of driving home the intent that these powers are meant to boost the Paladin's ability to combat evil.
Plus, the way it is worded, if I did not include: when you hit an evil foe for Blinding Light for instance, a rules lawyer could make the argument that the smite evil attempt itself fails to have any effect, but the Blinding Light effect applied to the attempt could still take effect.
Anyway, I'm more interested in providing the developers with the best ideas I can come up with, rather than wording them perfectly... leaving the final rendition up to them.
Another smite evil power idea:
Smite of Resistance (Ex) Whenever you successfully use a smite evil attempt, all allies within 30' are allowed a new saving throw against any ongoing fear, enchantment, compulsion effects they are under that originated from that foe.
The purpose of this power is to bring out the role of protector for the Paladin. By attacking the very foe that has hindered one or more of his allies, the Paladin encourages friends to shake off a variety of effects (such as confusion, charm, fear spells).
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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You don't really need to add the caveat of "when used against an evil foe." smite evil only ever works against evil foes. saying it again is redundant. Unless like wierd al yankovich your new years resolution is to "be more redundant" in which case sorry for stepping on your toes.The idea of adding effects to Smite Evil is an intriguing one. Here's my suggestions:
Blinding Light When you hit an evil foe with your smite attempt, it must succeed on a Fort DC = 10 + 1/2 Paladin level + Cha modifier or be blinded for 1d4 rounds.
Mighty Smite Whenever you roll a critical threat on any smite attempt, it is automatically confirmed when used against an evil foe.
The emphasis of "against evil foes," is my personal way of driving home the intent that these powers are meant to boost the Paladin's ability to combat evil.
Plus, the way it is worded, if I did not include: when you hit an evil foe for Blinding Light for instance, a rules lawyer could make the argument that the smite evil attempt itself fails to have any effect, but the Blinding Light effect applied to the attempt could still take effect.
Anyway, I'm more interested in providing the developers with the best ideas I can come up with, rather than wording them perfectly... leaving the final rendition up to them.
Another smite evil power idea:
Smite of Resistance (Ex) Whenever you successfully use a smite evil attempt, all allies within 30' are allowed a new saving throw against any ongoing fear, enchantment, compulsion effects they are under that originated from that foe.
The purpose of this power is to bring out the role of protector for the Paladin. By attacking the very foe that has hindered one or more of his allies, the Paladin encourages friends to shake off a variety of effects (such as confusion, charm, fear spells).
There was a spell of this type in the Miniatures Handbook (and probably the SC as well) called resurgence that granted a new save against an effect you had already failed against.
I think there some things in 4th Ed that do something like this too - you use a power and allies get to use a healing surge or (more relevant to this) make a saving throw against an ongoing effect.
But, yes, the ability for paladins to get rid of conditions on themselves or (especially) allies would be a cool addition to their arsenal, even if it's just an expansion of their LOH "cure condition" powers.
I have never read the Miniatures Handbook, but I do realize that this particular idea seems similar to some 4E powers. It differs in some fundamental ways, in particular, it uses one of the Paladin's unique resources (his smites per day), and is not limited to a once per encounter/daily mechanic, which seems more arbitrary to me.
I also wonder how it meshes with the Paladin's other proposed powers... take Aura of Courage, Aura of Resolve, and Aura of Righteousness. The Smite of Resistance power, combined with said Auras could make for a powerful combo against a variety of effects. Personally, I think it is a good idea, and makes for interesting combat possibilities (it gives and interesting option to dispel magic for instance).
I'm trying to think of more ideas along this route.
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UPDATE ALERT: A REVISED VERSION OF THE BETA PALADIN HAS BEEN POSTED BY JASON ON THIS THREAD.
Check it out, and save yourselves debating changes that have already occurred!
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Alright, here are some new (?) Smite/Faith Powers and Auras (some of them may already have been posted by me, or someone else):
Accurate Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin may reroll his attack roll and take the higher result of the two.
Sacred Smite (Su): As he smites, all damage the paladin inflicts (including from this attack) will be magical (divine) in nature and not susceptible to Damage Reduction or Spell Resistance. This effect lasts for one round. The paladin must be at least 4th level before taking this power.
Brilliant Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin’s weapon is treated as if were a Brilliant Energy weapon, and he ignores any armor bonus the opponent may have. The paladin must be at least 4th level before taking this power.
Sundering Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin may add half his paladin level to his Sunder attempts for one round.
Inspiring Smite (Su): As he smites, one of the paladin’s allies gains a morale bonus equal to the paladin’s Charisma modifier for one round. The paladin is not counted as his own ally for the purpose of this power.
Blessing Smite (Su): As he smites, all allies within 30 feet radius gain the benefits of the spell ‘Prayer’ for one round. The paladin’s caster level is equal to half his paladin class level for the purpose of this effect. The paladin must be at least 6th level before taking this power.
Blinding Smite (Su): If the paladin’s smite attack hits, the target must save vs. Fort (10 + half the paladin’s class level + his Charisma modifier) or become Blinded for one round. If the saving throw is successful, the target becomes Staggered instead for one round. Creatures immune to these effects are also immune to the effects of this power. The paladin must be at least 8th level before taking this power.
Inspiring Smite (Su): As he smites, one of the paladin’s allies gains a morale bonus equal to the paladin’s Charisma modifier for one round. The paladin is not counted as his own ally for the purpose of this power.
Shielding Smite (Su): As he smites, one of the paladin’s allies gains a sacred bonus equal to the paladin’s Charisma modifier to his AC for one round.
Divine Inspiration (Su): One of the paladin’s allies adjacent to him gains the ability to Smite Evil for one round. During his next action the chosen ally may add the paladin’s Charisma modifier to his attack roll and the paladin’s class level to his damage roll. Using this power is a swift action for the paladin, but he may not use smite evil until his next round.
Invigorating Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin may use Dispel Evil on one spell or effect on any of his allies within 60 feet radius. Alternatively, he may grant a reroll to any ally who failed a saving throw this round.
Aura of Fortitude (Su): All allies within the area of the paladin’s aura gain a sacred bonus to Fortitude saving throws equal to half the paladin’s class level. The paladin must be at least 14th level before taking this aura.
Aura of Clarity (Su): All allies within the area of the paladin’s aura gain a sacred bonus to Will saving throws equal to half the paladin’s class level. The paladin must be at least 16th level before taking this aura.
Aura of Alertness (Su): All allies within the area of the paladin’s aura gain a sacred bonus to Initiative modifier equal to the paladin’s Charisma modifier. The paladin must be at least 12th level before taking this aura.
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UPDATE ALERT: A REVISED VERSION OF THE BETA PALADIN HAS BEEN POSTED BY JASON ON THIS THREAD.
Check it out, and save yourselves debating changes that have already occurred!
I know, but it's fun to "brainstorm" new Paladin abilities and smites -- for my own playtesting purposes/class variant, if not for anything else. :)
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I still think Smite effects are superior to the simple changes made to Smite.
Smite effects are customizable for the particular paladin you are playing, making them preferable as both a mechanic and role-play (not roll-play!).
As it stands, the only difference between Paladin A and Paladin B would be feat choices (the Fighter's many option for customizing) and ability score stats (the over-all option for customizing that all characters have).
All the other classes have the option for change from player to player.
- The Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, and Wizard all have spells. Not to mention Domains, Wildshape, Bloodlines, and Schools.
- The Barbarian now has Rage powers.
- The Fighter has a much larger ability for gaining feats.
- The Ranger has Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain.
- The Rogue now has Rogue Talents.
- The Monk has specific combat feat choices.
And the paladin is... generic.
Add to that the idea of unified mechanics to inherent to Pathfinder for ease of play and learning (CMB, Animal Companions, Channel Energy, etc.) and you have a good case for a Smite Effect ability to mirror the Barbarian's Rage powers. A Smite that lasts rounds per day instead of times per day makes the need for further advancing of the X per day and damage (a middle-man mechanic IMO) obsolete, since it will affect all attacks for the rounds it is in effect. If you miss with that attack, no big deal - I can use it again for X additional rounds. And when successful, it affects damage for all the attacks that succeed.
Please, Jason, take a look through this thread again.
I like them, in the other thread I had mentioned effects like bane and doom being good low level smite talents. You could really go crazy and make whole talent trees, but let's say we're not going to go that far... The capstone is at level 20 the smite does a Banishment too. So that's a 6th level effect, at level 20. So having effects at every 4 levels would work. Let's say 2, 5, 9, 13, 17, 20. So to balance it, we just need some good level 1-5 spell effects a pally would like. And to keep with the paladin-y theme, they should be tuned to outsiders, undead, etc.
I think I agree with another poster who wanted the paladin to get the first effect at level 1; also the limit of one effect per smite.
All smites: count as lawful and goodL2: Smite the Unbeliever: Doom if target is evil
Doom feels a bit evil for a paladin. I like the idea of an effect that makes the enemy lose his next action.
L5: Rule of Law: Sound Burst if target is chaotic
Sound burst? The name leads me to expect the subject's movement or actions to be constrained in some way, like a compulsion not to do something.
L9: Dispelling Smite: Dispel Magic if target is evil spellcaster
Why limit to spellcasters? Why not also dispel beneficial effects on the evil spellcaster's allies?
L13: Smite of Power: Divine Power on paladin if target is evil divine caster
Divine Power normally lasts 1 round/level; it seems weak or ineffective within the limited duration of the smite.
L17: Truedeath Smite: Disruption (as Disrupting Weapon) if target is evil undead
I'd call it Disrupting Smite and make it available at lower level.
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All the other classes have the option for change from player to player.
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And the paladin is... generic.
This is a compelling point in favor of smite effects. I liked someone's idea of a limited number of effects taken from a significantly larger list as the paladin advances, so no two paladin builds are the same. I also like the idea of paladin-specific feats that let players excel in their favorite paladin class abilities.
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ugh, class specific feats are an aweful thing, the only class that should get them is the fighter. It's one thing to have feats work off of abilities, like sneak attack and wildshape or channel energy. but I don't want each class having a list of "this class only feats this level" to me it wastes space and should have been worked into the actual class if it was important enough for them to have.
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Don't forget, some of these ideas could live on as Paladin feats.
I know, but it's fun to "brainstorm" new Paladin abilities and smites -- for my own playtesting purposes/class variant, if not for anything else. :)
And I would be more or less fine with that, actually, because that's how things worked in 3E. However, I'd prefer them working as 'Paladin Talents' or 'Smite Powers', because that would be more internally consistent. At the moment it seems that the class features of too many classes (at least too many to my taste) may end up working on their own, unique "subsystem", rather being mechanically consistent with each other.
The Rogue and the Barbarian need not spend any Feats to "customize" their abilities -- why should the paladin? Another option is to "boost" the paladin's Smite Evil and Lay on Hands, so that he does not *need* any "power-ups" to them, and he'll be just as free to pick up "generic" Feats as the Rogue or the Barbarian.
What I'm trying to say is that I'd prefer either *all* classes having to spend Feats to "customize" their class features (i.e. how it worked in 3E), *or* all the classes getting a list of 'Powers' or 'Talents' to pick from without spending Feats on them.
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The Rogue and the Barbarian need not spend any Feats to "customize" their abilities -- why should the paladin? Another option is to "boost" the paladin's Smite Evil and Lay on Hands, so that he does not *need* any "power-ups" to them, and he'll be just as free to pick up "generic" Feats as the Rogue or the Barbarian...
...What I'm trying to say is that I'd prefer either *all* classes having to spend Feats to "customize" their class features (i.e. how it worked in 3E), *or* all the classes getting a list of 'Powers' or 'Talents' to pick from without spending Feats on them.
Amen, brother!
I'm a barbarian from the north and I approve this message!
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The Rogue and the Barbarian need not spend any Feats to "customize" their abilities -- why should the paladin? Another option is to "boost" the paladin's Smite Evil and Lay on Hands, so that he does not *need* any "power-ups" to them, and he'll be just as free to pick up "generic" Feats as the Rogue or the Barbarian...
...What I'm trying to say is that I'd prefer either *all* classes having to spend Feats to "customize" their class features (i.e. how it worked in 3E), *or* all the classes getting a list of 'Powers' or 'Talents' to pick from without spending Feats on them.Amen, brother!
I'm a barbarian from the north and I approve this message!
I agree as well, mainly because Having a bunch of class specific feats is a waste of space in the feats section, I don't mind having feats based off of abilities, because you can always get abilities through PrCs or multiclassing, but basing it off of class means it a feat that isn't getting used if your game doesn't have one of those. I would want the only class to have class specific feats to be the fighter, because feats *are* his class feature. But even then I would prefer feats give him added benefits that other classes don't get instead of him having a ton of fighter only feats.