This may or may not be the appropriate place to post this, but I'm sort of wondering if we'll get some new/workable construct rules anytime soon.
I have a wizard player who really likes making constructs, and there's just not a ton he can do in the existing system(s). The core constructs (golems) are a joke. They are incredibly expensive, and, I believe, can't have their hit dice upgraded to level with you. As if players really want to spend all of their money on construct just to have it become obsolete. I wouldn't even begin to allow him to use effigies, so all that's left is the Eberron homunculi, which I had to houserule to make upgradable.
Any chance we'll see something akin to these things in Pathfinder? I'd really love for my players to get a tic toc style guardsman that they could take with them and upgrade from low levels.
I have a wizard player who really likes making constructs, and there's just not a ton he can do in the existing system(s).
Yes, there is. The greater stone golem alone is several tons.
The core constructs (golems) are a joke. They are incredibly expensive, and, I believe, can't have their hit dice upgraded to level with you.
They're golems. Such things don't come cheap. While I agree that there might be room for a cheaper construct (besides the homunculous, or however that is spelled), I also think those golems shouldn't be a bargain so 3rd-level characters can churn them out at a rate of two per week.
If they get around to it, I would also welcome better rules on HD advancement and extra cost for golems. Of course, that won't be automatic as you level yourself, since they don't grow or anything.
As if players really want to spend all of their money on construct just to have it become obsolete.
They're basically magic items, and those become obsolete, too: That +1 sword you blew all your money on on level 3 or so won't be so fabulous any more once you become epic.
Craft Construct is a Item Cration feat. None of the Item Cration feats in PHB state that you can upgrade an item, but the DMG says you can. Now sure, once a construct is created, it isn't considered a magic item anymore, so you can upgrade it. So have then take the following feat, if allowed by DM:
Upgrade Construct (ITEM CREATION)
You can upgrade an existing construct as if it were a magic item.
Prerequisites: Craft Arms and Armor, Craft Woundrous Item, Craft COnstruct
Benifit: As long as the controler of the construct is willing, you can upgrade an exisiting construct. Cost is the diference between the previous cost and the new cost of the construct.
Normal: You can not upgrade a construct.
I know that golem has a cost for advancing a golem, as do Homunculi and SHield Guardians, not sure off hand of other constructs do, but there is a simple way to do it. Everytime you wanna ugrade, take a few weeks of, and viola, you have a upgraded constuct.
WOw, pretty interesting what one can think of at 3:40 in the am, and with little sleep. Must sleep now...let me know what you think Please. :)
OHH I can see it now, when the construct increases size, you basicaly add another layer to it, maybe remove its limbs, add a new layer to its torso, then attache mew arms and legs. But keep the head the same size, so as it gets like Giant, and still has a human or ogre sized head, it could be some great cosmic joke? Anyway, I could see the layering/replacement a big part of the upgradding.
In the early days of Thassalion, Xin spent considerable resources on workarounds for this problem: All the replacing of parts for bigger golems was seen as a huge waste.
Sadly, his solution - while perfect in the scalability department, made trade-offs in resilience, and when the runelords decided to take over, all they needed was a single barbed devil to wade through Xin's massed army of rubber golems.
I would think wicker or hair golems would be the cost effective way to go. :)
Craft Construct is a Item Cration feat. None of the Item Cration feats in PHB state that you can upgrade an item, but the DMG says you can. Now sure, once a construct is created, it isn't considered a magic item anymore, so you can upgrade it. So have then take the following feat, if allowed by DM:
Upgrade Construct (ITEM CREATION)
You can upgrade an existing construct as if it were a magic item.
Prerequisites: Craft Arms and Armor, Craft Woundrous Item, Craft COnstruct
Benifit: As long as the controler of the construct is willing, you can upgrade an exisiting construct. Cost is the diference between the previous cost and the new cost of the construct.
Normal: You can not upgrade a construct.I know that golem has a cost for advancing a golem, as do Homunculi and SHield Guardians, not sure off hand of other constructs do, but there is a simple way to do it. Everytime you wanna ugrade, take a few weeks of, and viola, you have a upgraded constuct.
WOw, pretty interesting what one can think of at 3:40 in the am, and with little sleep. Must sleep now...let me know what you think Please. :)
OHH I can see it now, when the construct increases size, you basicaly add another layer to it, maybe remove its limbs, add a new layer to its torso, then attache mew arms and legs. But keep the head the same size, so as it gets like Giant, and still has a human or ogre sized head, it could be some great cosmic joke? Anyway, I could see the layering/replacement a big part of the upgradding.
Hrmm...that's an interesting idea. Honestly, I'm not sure it constitutes an entire feat on it's own, but if it were wrapped into some kind of 'construct master' feat or something, it'd be cool.
Yes, there is. The greater stone golem alone is several tons.
Oh god. I don't know if that joke filled me with terror or hatred, but it's like black tentacles, only warm and fuzzy.
They're golems. Such things don't come cheap. While I agree that there might be room for a cheaper construct (besides the homunculous, or however that is spelled), I also think those golems shouldn't be a bargain so 3rd-level characters can churn them out at a rate of two per week.If they get around to it, I would also welcome better rules on HD advancement and extra cost for golems. Of course, that won't be automatic as you level yourself, since they don't grow or anything.
Right. I'd like something more like a small mechanical guard you can take with you. I certainly would want ACTUAL golems to remain expensive and over the top.
They're basically magic items, and those become obsolete, too: That +1 sword you blew all your money on on level 3 or so won't be so fabulous any more once you become epic.
Yes, but you can always upgrade the +1 sword, I don't believe you can upgrade golems once made under the current rules. I could always houserule it, or use the eberron things, but I'd like to see something pathfinderized.
Oh god. I don't know if that joke filled me with terror or hatred, but it's like black tentacles, only warm and fuzzy.
Yes, there is. The greater stone golem alone is several tons.
Ebby's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion?
I'd like something more like a small mechanical guard you can take with you.....
Yes, but you can always upgrade the +1 sword, I don't believe you can upgrade golems once made under the current rules. I could always houserule it, or use the eberron things, but I'd like to see something pathfinderized.
I can agree to both.
A Master Construct Creator Feat could be interesting, with perhaps a reduced gp cost to creation of constucts or something, which also would reduce the cost to repair or upgrade.
|
In terms of creating smaller, cheaper golems, has everyone forgotten that wonderful article in Dragon? The one that gave me my avatar? Paper, Tin and Wood Golems? Combining this with the upgrade golems feat and a lower powered wizard can create his own companion to follow him around. combining it with construct familiars and a warforged artificer and suddenly everythign around you is custimizable in modules. new arms, wings, weapons, etc. every few levels. actually...this sounds pretty cool. I may just have to use this in my game...
|
In terms of creating smaller, cheaper golems, has everyone forgotten that wonderful article in Dragon? The one that gave me my avatar? Paper, Tin and Wood Golems? Combining this with the upgrade golems feat and a lower powered wizard can create his own companion to follow him around. combining it with construct familiars and a warforged artificer and suddenly everythign around you is custimizable in modules. new arms, wings, weapons, etc. every few levels. actually...this sounds pretty cool. I may just have to use this in my game...
I was thinking of the same article, damn, pirated by Kess.
(I wonder if those golems will or can be updated in Pathfinder?)|
|
In terms of creating smaller, cheaper golems, has everyone forgotten that wonderful article in Dragon? The one that gave me my avatar? Paper, Tin and Wood Golems? Combining this with the upgrade golems feat and a lower powered wizard can create his own companion to follow him around. combining it with construct familiars and a warforged artificer and suddenly everythign around you is custimizable in modules. new arms, wings, weapons, etc. every few levels. actually...this sounds pretty cool. I may just have to use this in my game...I was thinking of the same article, damn, pirated by Kess.
(I wonder if those golems will or can be updated in Pathfinder?)
well in theory everything can be updated to pathfinder, but whether or not we'll see "official" support, I doubt it. since, if I'm not mistaken, everything in the Magazines is property of WotC.
In terms of creating smaller, cheaper golems, has everyone forgotten that wonderful article in Dragon? The one that gave me my avatar? Paper, Tin and Wood Golems? Combining this with the upgrade golems feat and a lower powered wizard can create his own companion to follow him around. combining it with construct familiars and a warforged artificer and suddenly everythign around you is custimizable in modules. new arms, wings, weapons, etc. every few levels. actually...this sounds pretty cool. I may just have to use this in my game...
Heh, I guess you liked my feat :) Thanks. If you all want, I can try to develope it into that Master Construct Creator feat, if you think it should be developed that way, or make that feat too, making it a couple feats.
Vote, how many for a master construct creator feat and upgrade as seperate feats, or for a combined feat!
|
|
...
Vote, how many for a master construct creator feat and upgrade as seperate feats, or for a combined feat!
Personally, I see it more as a combined sorta thing. otherwise, you'd end up with "craft arms and armor" and "upgrade Arms and Armor", even though as it stands you can upgrade with the original one anyway. As far as I know, that is.
Well, as they have it now, you can upgrade magic items with just the Base Craft feat, but since Constructs are no longer considered magic items after they start moving, you can't, by the strict ruling of what a construct is.
But one could just say "you can upgrade a construct as a magic item" and then pretty much you dont even need a feat, other than Craft Construct.
|
|
Well, as they have it now, you can upgrade magic items with just the Base Craft feat, but since Constructs are no longer considered magic items after they start moving, you can't, by the strict ruling of what a construct is.
But one could just say "you can upgrade a construct as a magic item" and then pretty much you dont even need a feat, other than Craft Construct.
ya, see, that doesn't make much sense to me. why isn't it a magic item after you create it if it uses, nay, lives on, magic?
Well, I suppose, after reading Intelligent Items, I would probabably allow a construct to be upgraded by someone with craft construct, since itelegent items are also considered constructs. SO it would come down to this: If an intelligent item can be upgraded, then so can constructs.
:)
If you want "cost effective" constructs you should probably take a look at Complete Arcane for the Effigy Master PrC. You could take it once you hit 8th level and has rules for creating some simpler, less expensive constructs by basically adding a template to a base creature. I do however strongly suggest that you not allow other templates to the base creature before that one because of how ridiculous it can get. If you are looking for a lower level option the craft construct - homunculous and improved homunculous rules from Eberron really aren't all that bad.
Would more rules spelling things out be nice? Yes, however I really don't think they are needed. Most casters are already considered "flying weapons platforms" to paraphrase a thread I read awhile ago, there isn't really a need to give them the option to have super tough shock troops 24/7(or whatever your game has) as well. Which is pretty much what you would have as you upgraded your construct. Just look at the discussion about a druids animal companion and how having that extra body on the playing field is viewed in terms of balance, nevermind the leadership feat.
As for the intelligent items versus the golems... Golems become a creature, once they are created they are what they are, you spend the money, time and finished the ritual to give that creature the semblance of life and imbue it with a life force of its own. Once that creature hits 0 hit points it is gone, reconstructing the "life force" to improve it would be like starting from scratch and require everything to be gone over again and redone. They don't stop working when they go into and anti-magic field. An intelligent item is still an item, not a construct creature type, it stops operating in an anti-magic field and if destroyed can be repaired and even improved upon. There is a difference, if you wanted the bigger badder construct you should have sprung for it when it was created. I guess you could think of it like this: a magic item is a cd-rw, you can go back and change it or append it. A constructed being (aka Construct) is a cd-r, once it is written you never get the space back from the cd that you used before.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
|
If you want "cost effective" constructs you should probably take a look at Complete Arcane for the Effigy Master PrC. You could take it once you hit 8th level and has rules for creating some simpler, less expensive constructs by basically adding a template to a base creature.
You don't even need to take the PrC! You can make Effigies with just Craft Construct, just not as well. They are prety damned tough.
...An intelligent item is still an item, not a construct creature type, it stops operating in an anti-magic field and if destroyed can be repaired and even improved upon...
I'm a moron, was at work and posted from memory. When I got home and looked, right in the intelligent magic items, it states to treat them as constructs. However that being said it also says to treat them as npc's and there are no rules for adding to them nor suggestions for making them any better unlike regular magic weapons. That being said my guess is its a "DM plot hook thingy" and the only reason to post prices for all the abilities and not caster levels, is to show how much they would sell for.
Its a really hairy thing isnt it. COnstructs and Intelligent magic items.