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Plese forgive my verbose post - but this is an area that I've very passionate about - having been in love with the paladin since 1st edition D&D, the last time the class was truly a valuable class to play was Unearthed Arcana. 2nd edition made them almost feeble in comparison - unless you were lucky to get a Holy Avenger. 3rd edition made one cool change that allowed the mount to be summoned / unsummoned, but did away with the awesome power of a holy avenger - and thus the paladin has sucked since the Unearthed Arcana of 1st edition was forgotten.
Here's a breakdown of what I see is the problem (Caveat: this is NOT Paizo's fault - they had nothing to do with the limpness of the paladin. In comparison, the paladin is the most pathetic of the 11 classes in the Beta - closely behind the bard IMO. Again, Paizon had nothign to do with this - its been an issue for 20 years now - the problem is exacerbated by the other classes in Beta getting MUCH better - and leaving the paladin behind even further.)
First a couple of things we can all agree on. The paladin typically is meant to be a front-line fighter, the go-to-guy in the fight against evil. The party's leader, the protector, hero, and ultimate champion of good. Unfortunately, they are unfit to be that roll when it comes time for initiative.
First a simple comparison of the warrior classes: The Ranger gains many bonus feats that further develop his chosen fighting style, and gets plenty of skills, the barbarian with their myriad of rage abilities, and the recent think tanks of new abilities and their new designed proposed rage mechanic further establishes them as a mean-fighting-machine, and the fighter is loaded with feats, and weapon/armor training that turns him into a non-stop damage dealer, and AC monger.
Compare at 5th level.
Unlike the paladin who needs a significant Charisma score to be a really good paladin, the fighter does not need any other stat other than Str to be able to use his class features optimally. Sure other stats are beneficial, but class features aren't hinged on them. Thus a typical fighter is going to start 2-4 points of Str higher than a paladin. By 5th level, the fighter will most likely put the stat point (at 4th level) to Str, whereas the paladin will probably just as likely need to beef up his CHA. BABs are the same, but by 5th level, the fighter has been able to afford feats to have Weapon Focus, weapon specialization for damage plus he gains Weapon Training +1 to both; and the fighter will probably spend any ability enhancing item on Str +2.
Difference in Attack rolls: +4 to +5 better chance to hit at 5th level. Damage +4 more. Furthermore, due to his better chance to hit, he can afford to power attack every round, and still have the same base chance to hit - for a better of +8 damage over the paladin.
A good arguement is that Paladins are known for being the AC tanks instead. However, the fighter can have a tower shield, whereas a paladin would have to burn a feat on it, the fighters attack bonuses over the paladin afford him the ability to USE the tower shield and STILL have a better attack bonus than the paladin. This affords a better of +2 AC. Plus the fighter has Armor Training by this point, affording 1 better AC from the same armor, and 1 better by an optimized Dex - total allowing +2 to +4 better AC on top of the +4 to +5 to attack rolls, and +4 to +8 better to damage.
So an arguement can be made the the fighter would most likely be a two-handed fighter and forget the tower shield. Bucklers have only 1 AC less than Hvy (the best a paladin can normally use), and the Armor training for the fighter still allows 1 better AC and 1 better from DEX, still affording 1 better AC in the long run; BUT the damage difference is not just 4 from STR, but 6 with a 2HW, and when power attack (getting the same attack bonus as the paladin) gets 10 points of damage from the PA; so such a character is 1 better AC, same attack bonus and +10 to +16 better in damage per attack.
Barbarian - is going to start at 4 pts of STR higher will turn to +6 better by 5th level either by stat increase or enhancement item, turns to 10 pts higher while raging. And while his AC will not be as good as the paladin, he'll have +5 better to attacks, can power attack all of that while still matching the paladins ability to hit and do +16 better in damage.
By 10th level, the fighter now has greater weapon focus, weapon training x2, and armor training x2 and can afford to raise his str again at 8th and/or have a +4 STR item wheres the paladin is just as likely to spend one of those capabilities on CHA. PLUS the fighter is far more apt to have an INT of 13+ to take Combat Expert - so his access to the cool tripping and disarming feats are to better AC far outweigh the paladin even further.
He's just outdistanced the paladin in his attacks by another +4; thus making him +7 to +9 better in attack rolls, his AC can now be two points better with Armor Training plus optimally +2 pts better from DEX, and still possibly 2 pts better from Tower shield; so AC over palaidn is +2 to +6 pts better, fighter can again power attack full and still have a better chance to hit than the paladin affording a dmg increase of +5 with a single handed weapon, to +23 per attack with a 2HW. Realistically - such a fighter would have +4 better AC, +3 better on attacks (when full power attacking with two-handed weapon), and +23 dmg ever swing.
The barb is one level away from Greater Rage and still able to power attack every round while still hitting more often than a paladin, and doing 3 times the damage, and having 2 times the hit points.
Skeptics say that the paladin's forte' lies in its Saving throws and immunitites. The paladin does have better saves this is true. Personally, I think the above is TOO much of a difference to be made up for by the save bonuses of +4is to all saves. Frankly, during my playtesting, the only time my paladin shines is when waiting to make a save vs a magical attack - IMO this doesn't ever seem too heroic. The fighter now has a bonus to saves vs fear which stacks with a paladin's arua of courage since the former is an unnamed bonus. The palaidn is immune to disearse but by 8th level, disease is usually not a problem for either the fighter or barbarian with their good fort saves and con. Plus disease typically has such an onset time and so easy to cure by that point by clerics that it's not even much of a threat. Poison in contrast is far more debilitating and more often, and since fighters are easy to be dwarves as opposed to paladins (with their penalty to charisma), the dwarves con and poison resistances even make that better for the fighter.
The Paladin gets smite evil, true - but thats at 8th level, 3 times per day - thats three attacks - not three rounds, three encounters, etc, just three drops of the D20 in the course of the day that the paladin has about +4 to hit and +8 to damage - still less than the fighter and barbarian examples above - and the former's rage lasts for several rounds - not three attacks.
Lay on hands is not worth doing in combat; a standard action to heal 8 points at that level - when youre being hit on avg for 15 points of damage with each attack, and not to mention you're giving up a full attack action of 2 potential hits for that 8 points.
Spellcasting is half a cleric level, and turning is 3 levels lower; the latter of which is liveable - the former is laughable - so easy to dispel, durations fly by way to fast to spend a standard action to cast them first.
Many of their other abilities help the party. This is a great role for the paladin - but spending two smites (out of their daily 4) to allow the whole party the chance just doesn't seem feasible. I have no problem with the paladin helping the party - but considering the fighter/barbarian example above, the ranger and their feats/skills, the cleric and their buffing, and the rogue and their sneak attack damage - ALL outshine the paladin and need less help than the paladin does on average. I think we need abilities that help the palaidn FIRST, then try to help the party - if the paladin is expected to take on the BBEG and be the champion vs evil that we know him or expect him to be.
The problem always arises against the triple-Ds. (Devils, Demons, Dragons). Compare the fighter/barbarian example above, there's no way the paladin has a chance of hitting most of those BBEGs, the 3Ds, or evil clerics with their super-ACs.
The best thing going for the paladin by then is again - waiting to resist a magical attack....woohoo!! Most BBEGs savvy enough to know not to sling magic at the paladin; instead hit the fighter with a will save (other than fear now), and then attack the paladin cuz he doesn't have the attack bonus to do affect the creature, doesn't do enough damage to be truly effective, and his AC is not as high as the fighter and easier to hit - they hurt alot less than the barbarian and goes down faster thanks to having half as many hit points as the raging barbarian.
Now that I've illustrated the problems, its far to say that solutions are needed.
1) I've suggested on another thread a Divine Might ability which acts like a bonus to attack and damage that scales with paladin levels that affect all evil opponents - this still leaves them slightly behind the fighter and barbarian in attack rolls and still way behind in damage if the they are using the 2HW style w/ PA This bonus is +1 to attacks at 1st level and scales +1 to attack at every 3 levels after (+2 at 4th, +3 at 7th etc to a max of +7 - still will be behind the fighter and barbarian above by the time we hit that level).
2) Smite Evil affecting a single target at a time increasing the paladin's effectiveness against a single BBEG to where he may actually excel and pass the fighter and barbarian for a few rounds. OR have Smite Evil do above and beyond the attack and dmg bonus of Divine Might (above) and do something special to the target: Stagger, Stun, Fear, Panicked, Sickened, Shakened type of condition) for a round.
3) Lay on Hands should heal 2 x the paladins level with each touch - OR Cha mod x pal level.
4) Aura of Good should provide a Deflections mod vs Evil; +1 at first level, +1 per 3 levels after (+2 at 4th, +3 at 7th); this won't stack with protection rings, or shield of faith or prot from evil - but its one less buff the paladin needs to help him stay in line with the fighters ability to defend himself.
5) Paladins should have Armor Training as a fighter - not as often - the fighter gets it x4, the paladin should get it x2 IMO
6) Spells should have either caster level equal to paladin, OR spontaneous casting like a sorcerer, or casting spells are swift action - or make them spell like abilities that cast as swift actions. Otherwise, their spells are just completely lackluster for the purposes of in combat. They dont last long, they're easy to dispel, they aren't known for having Spellcraft and can be disrupted while casting, and you don't get many of them anyways.
7) Additional smites: 1+CHA mod at first level - to be used as suggested in idea number 2.
8) Should have to burn 2 smites to let party all smite - perhaps the paladin when he smites just allows everyone to smite that round - again - most party members making melee attacks are usually already better off than the paladin (we all know clerics, druids are excellent when buffed, rogues can do all kinds of damage any time they flank - now against even targets that they used to not be able to do so, fighters and barbarians are leagues above the paladin in attack and dmg without buffs, and the ranger has the feats available to him to be great at his style of fighting).
9)I've seen the Divine Grace be a level-dipping issue; I can suggest and live with the idea of spreading the bonus out - like +1 at 2nd level and +1 more every 3 levels to max of Cha mod IF we improve the paladins' other areas: AC and Attack rolls.
10) Turning - 3 levels lower than clerics I can live with - they're generally going to have better CHA than the cleric to help make up for it, but they have less of them than a cleric too. (1+CHA vs 3+CHA) Perhaps increase the turning back to 3+CHA like a cleric and allow the channeling to do certain buffs on the party instead of using the smites (such as allowing the party better Saves, AC, attacks, or a smite attack etc) - again, instead of using smites.
11) Skills; The paladin cannot afford to have an INT score - he needs CHA, STR, CON, DEX in that order then WIS for better saves and then INT last. The paladin is expected to be a mounted warrior, a healer, a spellcaster, a diplomat - he wears all these hats and does NOT have the skills to even do two of them. I know the idea of raising skill points to a min of 4 has been poo-pooed before by the designer on the Fighter Design threads, but it needed to be listed here anway for the purpose of being complete.
Bottom line the paladin needs automatic ways to be better in a fight than he already is by far. Buffing the party is nice and well within the role of the paladin, but he needs ways to buff himself even more, first. Healing the party is also something well within the desinged role of the paladin, but again he cannot do that well, either.
Again, the feebleness of the paladin is not Paizo's fault; it is alreayd behind the curve of the other classes when all this started, and the other classes are getting even further love and leaving the paladin even further behind. This I hope helps illustrate just how big of a gap there is, and hopefully although Paizo didn't create the gap, they can help close it (with our help).
Robert
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Interesting but not sure if I agree. Armor training makes up for some of this need.
Robert Brambley wrote:4) Aura of Good should provide a Deflections mod vs Evil; +1 at first level, +1 per 3 levels after (+2 at 4th, +3 at 7th); this won't stack with protection rings, or shield of faith or prot from evil - but its one less buff the paladin needs to help him stay in line with the fighters ability to defend himself.
Well these suggestions are not necessarily meant to stack - I was merely brainstorming with ways to help. One or the other is a good start.
In 1st edition the paladin was clearly a more powerful character than a fighter. Now, I agree with the changes made to make the fighter, and other classes more powerful, but I fully agree that the paladin has fallen well behind. The paladin also needs some exceptional abilities (feats) and not just supernatural/divine ones to help restore that mystique of the shining knight. The divine abilities are the reward for following the code and the role-playing restrictions it imposes (Not to mention paladins needed a lot more experience per level to advance than most other classes). However, if you take that away, they should have a skills and abilities that they have devloped through their discipline and training in the arts of war that they bring against forces of evil.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here - all character classes advance on the same chart in 3rd ed. In previous editions each class had their own XP advancement chart - perhaps you're referring to a new edition.
Regardless, thank you for taking the time to read and respond and support these issues.
Robert
an a$$ load of cool ideas
Well done! I'm waiting for the dust to settle for a bit before I start posting everywhere, but couldn't resist congratulating you on a well thought out and polite post. Too many posts are simply "this is teh sux - fixxxXzorz it!"
You, Sir, are a gentleman and a scholar!
Whilst I don't agree with all of your points, the Paladin is a class very close to our group's heart, I'm sure we'd all be happy using your version.
I'll be looking out for your posts in the future!
tfad
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an a$$ load of cool ideasWell done! I'm waiting for the dust to settle for a bit before I start posting everywhere, but couldn't resist congratulating you on a well thought out and polite post. Too many posts are simply "this is teh sux - fixxxXzorz it!"
You, Sir, are a gentleman and a scholar!
Whilst I don't agree with all of your points, the Paladin is a class very close to our group's heart, I'm sure we'd all be happy using your version.
I'll be looking out for your posts in the future!
tfad
Thank you for your kind words. As you can tell, I am very passionate about the paladin. They have always been my favorite; having grown up a major Superman fan, I see the paladin as the fantasy version of me being able to play that role - and has really frustrated me year after year to have the "role" and the feeling, but not be truly capable of fulfilling it all the way. Too many times I see the other classes in the party get superbly more powerful and capable. I'm hoping we and Paizo can help make the paladin the true champion he deserves to be.
Robert
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Whilst I don't agree with all of your points, the Paladin is a class very close to our group's heart, I'm sure we'd all be happy using your version.
Not all of what I posted necessarily needs to happen to improve the paladin - the more the better - but mostly those are ideas that need to be considered as a start.
other ideas that I have considered:
METTLE as a class feature. Rogues have Evasion and Imp Evasion. IMO it makes perfect sense for a paladin to be able to shrug off such magic that affects will and Fort (partial) saves. It's one of the key elements of the Templar prestige class and the one used the most in conjunction with a paladin. AND the Hexblade has it. If Mettle is appropriate for a Hexblade, it's certainly appropriate for a paladin.
TOWER SHIELD proficiency. I don't see the problem with this being afforded to the paladin - now that fighter has Armor Training up to times 4, and all the feats they have, they're still able to outperform the paladin in the AC dept usually; not to mention you'll see more fighters and paladins have Combat Expert since fighters are more apt to have stat points available in INT between the two classes. using a Tower Shield still incurs a -2 penalty to attack rolls; a paladin is known to be an iconic defender; whats more defensive than a holy knight protecting others behind him with his handy tower shield cover.
DETECT LIE: I think we shouldn't make the paladin change all about combat; some roleplaying changes can be made as well. Unfortunately the paladins lack of skill points makes them pretty limited - if they're mounted types they're not diplomats, if they're healers, they're not good at sensing motive etc. As it stands a paladin needs to have 2nd level spells to have Zone of Truth spell, and 3rd level spells to have Discern Lies. Thats a long way off. In 2nd edition there were kits etc that allowed palading to have abilities to detect lies. I see this as a great role-playing advantage - even if it's just a class bonus to Sense Motive checks.
Robert
A lot of good observations and suggestions Robert.
The only one where I disagree even slightly is on Divine Grace. IMO allowing their Charisma modifier to add to their Saves/AC at the rate of 1/3 levels is too slow. I recognize the need to limit this feature (and similar Benefit = Ability Modifier features of other classes) to prevent dipping, but I think the rate of +1 per level is sufficient and easier to keep track of — +1 per two levels even seems a bit too draconian for me.
BTW, you totally thew me off when you mentioned "triple-Ds". My brain went offline and I was left sitting here thinking about succubi...
METTLE as a class feature. Rogues have Evasion and Imp Evasion. IMO it makes perfect sense for a paladin to be able to shrug off such magic that affects will and Fort (partial) saves. It's one of the key elements of the Templar prestige class and the one used the most in conjunction with a paladin. AND the Hexblade has it. If Mettle is appropriate for a Hexblade, it's certainly appropriate for a paladin.
I really like your whole post Robert, very well said and there is really nothing that I disagree with. You and I are truly on the same page when it comes to the paladin...I PRAY that your Divine might or my lightbringer is put into the rules.
As for the quote here, this is an amazing idea! I thought of trying to get this into my games before but knew my DM would never allow it. It makes so much sense, its the pictures of the paladin standing in the flame of the dragons breath while the flame burns around his aura....this would be a GREAT addition!
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A lot of good observations and suggestions Robert.
The only one where I disagree even slightly is on Divine Grace. IMO allowing their Charisma modifier to add to their Saves/AC at the rate of 1/3 levels is too slow. I recognize the need to limit this feature (and similar Benefit = Ability Modifier features of other classes) to prevent dipping, but I think the rate of +1 per level is sufficient and easier to keep track of — +1 per two levels even seems a bit too draconian for me.
BTW, you totally thew me off when you mentioned "triple-Ds". My brain went offline and I was left sitting here thinking about succubi...
Thanks, Laith. We usually agree on most of our content; and to be truthful, I realize that the 1/3 levels for Divine Grace is too slow. I was merely putting the worst case scenario as a compromise if it meant that the other areas that are needed to be boosted gets done so in spades.
To put it another way: MOST opposition I've gotten over the years when I say something like, "The paladin is a very poor or weak character class - they cannot hold their own in combat at all" (as illustrated in my class by class comparison). The skeptic response 95% of the time is "Nah, that Divine Grace getting an instant +4 to all saves makes up for it!"
To those skeptics, I was merely illustrating an extreme case of slowing that progression down in exchange for having the other needs of offense and defense to be taken more seriously.
Now, I do agree for the sake of level dipping that getting the bonus all at once is too much. And I think from both a player and DM perspective that +1 per two levels is a fair compromise. +1 at 2nd level, +2 at 4th etc, up to max Cha Mod.
Regardless, the paladin needs other ways to get their attack rolls (not just from their three attacks a day with smite evil) and their ACs better.
Robert
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Whilst I don't agree with all of your points, the Paladin is a class very close to our group's heart, I'm sure we'd all be happy using your version.
Not all of what I posted necessarily needs to happen to improve the paladin - the more the better - but mostly those are ideas that need to be considered as a start.
other ideas that I have considered:
METTLE as a class feature. Rogues have Evasion and Imp Evasion. IMO it makes perfect sense for a paladin to be able to shrug off such magic that affects will and Fort (partial) saves. It's one of the key elements of the Templar prestige class and the one used the most in conjunction with a paladin. AND the Hexblade has it. If Mettle is appropriate for a Hexblade, it's certainly appropriate for a paladin.
TOWER SHIELD proficiency. I don't see the problem with this being afforded to the paladin - now that fighter has Armor Training up to times 4, and all the feats they have, they're still able to outperform the paladin in the AC dept usually; not to mention you'll see more fighters and paladins have Combat Expert since fighters are more apt to have stat points available in INT between the two classes. using a Tower Shield still incurs a -2 penalty to attack rolls; a paladin is known to be an iconic defender; whats more defensive than a holy knight protecting others behind him with his handy tower shield cover.
DETECT LIE: I think we shouldn't make the paladin change all about combat; some roleplaying changes can be made as well. Unfortunately the paladins lack of skill points makes them pretty limited - if they're mounted types they're not diplomats, if they're healers, they're not good at sensing motive etc. As it stands a paladin needs to have 2nd level spells to have Zone of Truth spell, and 3rd level spells to have Discern Lies. Thats a long way off. In 2nd edition there were kits etc that allowed palading to have abilities to detect lies. I see this as a great role-playing advantage - even if...
All good ideas and all excellent fits for paladins.
I am going to disagree with most of your suggestions and I ask that you read what I have to say and that no one flame me.
You don't have to agree with what I say, however =)
The main problem the paladin has is that it no longer requires the ability scores to support all the things it does.
In 2nd edition each class had minimum ability score requirements.
Want to be a fighter? No problem
Want to be a bard? Problem
Want to be a paladin? Pray to the dice gods and the table gods that you get HIGH double digits for the majority of your ability scores.
Getting low scores meant no paladin- and they did away with that requirement in 3.0. No one complained.
However high ability scores for the paladin is not merely a nice thing- it is a flat on requirement. Your post pointed that out.
They need what? high Strength for attacks and damage. High Con for when they do get hit. Moderate dex at least, to get every little point of AC they can. Definately don't want negatives here. A high Wisdom- their spells depend on it!.. High Intelligence- gotta have those skill points so you can see if folks are lying to you.
High Charisma for your saves and Lay on Hands, Divine Grace, and just to be a bright shiny example of Paladindom.
Their stats aren't just mad, they are friggin insane.
With a low or moderate point buy the paladin is just impossible. You can Not do all you need to do with it. It isn't a fault with point buy- it's a fault with the class being just so darned attribute heavy.
The following, I am gonna steal from other folk. There were some posts about this in the Alpha forums and I can't take credit for all this myself.
What the paladin needs more than new abilities, is alot less attribute insanity. We need to trim off at *least* two ability scores to the list, if not three.
Charisma.
Charisma is wonderful. We need to keep it. Why? Because an impolite, uncouth paladin is a foreign creature indeed. How much can we roll into it? Spell casting.
Lets take the Spell casting of the Paladin and roll it into Charisma. Charisma for DC's, charisma for Extra Spells, Charisma for.. well, for everything related to spell casting.
Skill Points.
Here, I agree with you. No one should be stuck with 2pt/level.
It should be noted however that Human paladin have the potential to get 2 per level (one for human, one for favored class). Should the class be dependant on a specific race? No- but it is at least a thought.
They should be bumped up to 4. They just need it.
What does this leave the Paladin needing?
Strength.
Con.
Charisma.
Dex needs to be 10, same with Wis and Int. Negative numbers in these areas hurt more than some others. Don't want negative skill points, will saves, or AC.
Doing this solves quite a few of the problems you mentioned: but not all.
Should the Paladin be equal, or nearly equal, to a raging barbarian or a specialized fighter, in melee combat?
For that, you need to pick something, and be good at it, and forget the rest.
The Paladin is the best defender. You don't like that, from your post, but it's what paladin really really shine at.
They have solid AC- thtough the fighter's is a little higher- but the Paladin has defenses the fighter can't compare to with their divine grace. Divine grace bonus is large and it stacks with everything.
The barbarian trades defense for offense. Yes, he's better at attacking but the Paladin is far better at defending than he is.
The fighter is in the middle. The 2h barbarian should outstrip the fighter due to the multiplicative effects of strength bonus with the weapon, while the paladin is better when attacked by things not strictly related to HP.
The fighter is the melee weapon guy, so him being better than the paladin really is as it should be.
That brings us to spells.
Paladin spells do need a buff- but it's a simple one. They need their CL to equal their Paladin level. That will keep them from getting dispelled so easily, and some of their spells go a good way towards making them unique and useful in battle.
Bless, Bless Weapon, Holy Sword, and whatnot.
I do Not agree that the Paladin should get some buff that makes them as good in melee as the fighter. The fighter has enough problems without the Paladin being as good in melee and better in defense. They all need some niche, and I believe these changes could help.
What do you all think on 'em?
-S
edit: board ate the first one.. glad I copied it first!
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I do Not agree that the Paladin should get some buff that makes them as good in melee as the fighter. The fighter has enough problems without the Paladin being as good in melee and better in defense. They all need some niche, and I believe these changes could help.
What do you all think on 'em?
Selgard, thanks for the discussion. It's actually good to get opposing views - I'm not going to flame you; opposing views simply help me strengthen my arguement and resolve and realize where I need to re-emphasie my points. :-)
First: we cannot use additional skill points in an arguement for a fix - as you suggested. Jason has already put his foot down in previous discussions; classes are NOT going to get skill point increases. So lets move on.
Second: I am not advocating that the paladin get to be as good in combat as the fighter in the attack department. In my lenghty post above, if you humor me that my illustrations and examples are relevant, the fighter has about a +7 bonus to hit advantage at about 10th level, and about +20 pts of damage more. Even if the damage output was 20 points less - the +7 bonus to hit is about equivalent to saying that he'll hit about a third more often, and a third more often confirming criticals. It doesn't matter how much or little damage you do if your attacks are incapable of hitting. But the fighter (and barbarian) far outshine in both. Add that to the myriad of feat options and combinations that fighter has access to means the paladin is not only behind, but in another class altogether. In fact the NPC class Warrior is just as effective in melee.
Third: The AC. You may indicate that the Paladin is the AC junkie - fine I agree; but my illustration show very realistic mechanics where the fighter is a +6 AC advantage over the paladin counterpart. So in this: the disparity is three-fold: the paladin is not barely behind, but significantly behind in attack rolls, damage output (further exacerbated by the fact that he'll hit more often so +20 to damage more is really about +50 more since he'll be hitting more often), and in AC - not to mention the fighter can afford more CON than Paladin so not getting hit as often saves the more hit points that he already has.
Fourth: You indicate spells are part of the equalizer- should they receive a buff. However, even with such a buff to full caster level for instance, the paladin must spend his standard actions preparing those. Even his bonded weapon requires a standard action to have it ready. Fighter feats, weapon/armor training, barbarians rage and DR, etc are all ready all the time instantly available to them. So your proposed fix means that paladin spends the first 3 rounds of a combat getting almost as good as a fighter or barbarian in effectiveness, while those two are laying the wood to the enemy for those three rounds with no hesistation. The paladin is then just the clean-up and the scraps. Where is our heroic fearless champion against evil? Standing back by the wizard for the past 3 rounds getting prepared to fight.
Fifth: So if compare apples to apples, while the paladin is spending his three rounds or so to buff to get almost on par with the other martial characters, the cleric and druid are doing similar buffs on themselves, and the wizard is helping the rogue turn into a living eviscerator on steroids with his 50 points of damage per round sneak attacks. When the cleric and druid are done buffing their now better than the paladin is with his buffs! So once again he falls behind the curve.
Now, commenting on your statement that paladin should not be as good as a fighter - once again I agree. And once again my suggestions with the use of the "divine might" or whatever you want to call it that gives a supernatural divine blessing bonus to attack rolls and damage against evil opponents STILL does not close the gap completely to the other martial characters, the buffed clerics and druids, or the sneak attack quisinart rogues.
my suggestion was a +1 to attacks at 1st level, increasing by +1 per three levels after (in the same progression as additional smites come in the paladin write up). At that point the fighter is going to most likely have a higher strength bonus, and/or Weapon focus and still be ahead. By the time 5th comes along giving the paladin a +2, the fighter has another ability point towards str, has a +2 enhancement item towards it, and weapon training. By the time 8th comes along, that fighter str is about 6 pts higher, greater weapon focus, weapon training etc - if all of those are in place he could realistically have a +6 or +7 better to attack rolls, realistically at least a +5 - the paladin suggestion I made gives a +3 at that point and is capable of getting that slight boost from Smite Evil on individual targets that could stretch that to +7 - but only momentarily. The fighter still is doing more damage, better AC, more tricks up his sleeve from feats, and better attack rolls most of the time.
So I disagree that my my proprosals do anything to lessen the balance or difference between the paladin and the consumate fighter. All I've done is taken the pitiful difference and made it serviceable, with moments of greatness thanks to the smite evil ability.
Then suggesting the use of Tower Shield and half the ability with the armor training just closes that gap but not completely between the two - which happens to be in the one area you said the paladin should excel at. Tower shield would still limit the attack rolls of the paladin, and the armor training wont be nearly as able to be taken full advantage of most of the time in comparison since the multiple stats the paladin needs will usually assure a lower DEX than a fighter, and getting Armro Training 2x as i propose vs four for the fighter still leaves a noticeable gap in the defensive nature of the two classes EVEN if the fighter is a 2WF or 2HF style specialist.
Robert
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I think I need to take a break for a few days from paladin threads. Having been playtesting it has had me feeling so sad about the paladins abilities (not the paladin as a class, just his actual abilities as they relate to combat). But all the fixes have gotten responses in the negative that usually don't make sense.
Like the argument that having smites start at 1+cha mod per day will encourage level dipping.
The only time it would encourage level dipping is if the character had a high cha but a low to hit. Maybe sorcerers and bards. however both of those classes would be loosing a spellcaster level to gain a minor boost to hit and a useless boost to damage on physical attacks when if they want a boost to attack they could just cast true strike for goodness sake, remember smite is based on paladin level, not character level. I could build a singleclass character who has that kind of boost to attacks as many times per day if not more so without the waste of multiclassing. in fact look up the law devotion feat in complete champion. that gives a matching bonus for 1 minute. that's 10 rounds. applying to every attack made including AoO's and you expect me to waste a level to multiclassing to an inferior class?
the problem is I feel myself getting snarky and I don't like the tone I'm noticing in my posts. I try to be more persuasive and right now I feel kind of confrontational because having the paladin actually feel like a paladin for more than a single underwhelming attack per day is really important to me.
I don't think I addressed the tower shield- but even still the paladin can get it at the cost of a feat. No, feats aren't free- but the Paladin does get more of them now than he used to.
As to spells.
Buff spells are surely not perfect- but they are something you can't simply discount. True, if you are surprised, you may have to jump into battle without buffs but that is an unsurmountable problem with the spell casting classes.
I would however be in favor of the signature paladin spells being swift or immediate actions, to help alleviate this.
(holy sword in particular- as its a "capstone" spell so to speak- though Bless weapon could greatly benefit from it as well, and the two spells do not stack).
The problem with your flat out bonuses is that they fail to take into account the paladin who is built differently from your model. What happens when a paladin Has good point buy? or rolls well- for those who roll the dice?
Since your numbers are created to make up the difference- when there Is no difference they tip the paladin far forward. the Paladin built for melee damage (high str/con) who lets his wisdom and charisma slide abit can still be a solid paladin. And under your system, if they are in a moderate point buy he can /excel/ in melee while not suffering for charisma or wisdom one bit.
Defense.
The protection of the Paladin is not all AC. Yes, the Fighter will have better AC. They are designed to. (see- armor training).
However, the fighter *fails* when it comes to saving throws. And by that I mean, he fails saving throws. Only the fighter's very best save will meet or surpass the Paladin and that is a relatively small thing since few things target the fighter or paladin with Fort saves that they wouldn't have passed anyway. Compare their will saves and you'll find the Paladin soars far and away- and that's the "meat shield" weak point.
The paladin, in effect, doesn't have a chink in his armor. He has solid AC (not the strict best) and solid saves. (note- each class has a good save that is boosted by their primary stat. For that one stat they Might go higher than the Paladin, but with that comes the severe *hole* in the head that is their low stat. the Paladin has GOOD saves all the way across the fence).
The solution(s) I posted in this post and in the previous go a good ways towards fixing them without intruding on the other classes.
And although not a true solution, I would also advise people against playing a Paladin in campaigns where the DM allows only a small modicum of points to buy your attributes with. (or in situations where you roll poorly enough that the Paladin is not a wise choice, given their insanity-attribute-penalty)
-S
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stuff
Selgard you and I have butted heads in the past, and I have no intention of flaming you, however, I think you have a large fear of power creep in the game that makes you hesitant to admit when a class is subpar.
Even if we reduce the MAD of the Paladin, does smite evil achieve parity? Honestly I don't think it does. I'll admit that most of my concern for the paladin is low level where he has a suite of abilities that really don't get much play till later in the game (his immunities at level three don't really play much because very few CR3 lower creatures use diseases, the fear is better, but is also situational. Lay on hands never has combat utility because of the HP boost of pathfinder, and detect evil can't even be used in combat.) but really the fact that a paladin only gets 7 over the course of his career and the fact that they only apply to one attack roll each. Do you honestly think that the ability is fine as is?
Same with lay on hands. another issue where level worth of healing fails to compete. Even if you increase cha by reducing MAD that only adds more uses per day which can only be used after combat it means that you have slightly more healing available but no increase in utility.
Since you have offered a suggestion of reducing mad, but these are two abilities that aren't greatly affected by having MAD reduced, I was curious what you thought of them, if you felt they were in fact on par, and if so why, and if not, what do you suggest to help them. I have a much better chance to create a fix that would work for you if I knew where you were coming from with these abilities instead of just getting the impression that you are following me around paladin threads naysaying anything that doesn't reduce MAD. (that last line was lighthearted, not suggestive)
edited.
deleted 'cuz forum finally posted it.
harumph.
Well, I wasn't following you around =)
And hello there!
The previous posts about it where either in General, or in Alpha- in either or both cases I came here to post because it's now Paladin time on the boards.
I want to be honest here as I was in previous threads because I think it does bare noting that what I say here has little to do with actual play testing, *especially* when involving the Paizo versions of things. I've remained largely silent on Lay on Hands because all i can give you is anecdotals instead of things I've seen in play. I spent alot of time (i started the group at 13, we stayed 'til 25 or so) watching a team mate play a Paladin and I draw alot of what I say from that. That, however, doesn't cover the new lay on hands abilites *at all*.
I will go read the lay on hands closely and post about it if you want me to- but I'm not sure my opinion will be anything more than just reading what it says and giving an off-the-cuff opinion on it.
As for Smite.
Smite's biggest problem is also it's biggest help. It's the primary combat ability for the Paladin. Fighters get their feats (wep focus/spec/ and imps for both). Rangers get favored enemies. Barbarians get rage. Each of those are either permanent (Fighter) situational (ranger) or have enough uses to funciontally last all day (barb) with the end effect of the abilities basically being more or less constant. (less so with the ranger, but that depends on teh campaign and the favored enemy).
Smite, however useful, is different in that it's situational and has very very few uses. at 7 per day (at 19th level) they can use it approximately twice per encounter for a whopping +38 damage- assuming both hits Hit, and are against evil foes.
Two hits per encounter seems decent, especially at +19 damage each- the problem being that such is at *19th level*. Too little, too late.
What fix?
I find it interesting that the Barbarian overhaul tied all their abilities into Rage, yet the Paladin overhaul didn't do the same to their LoH. Why not tie Smite into LoH?
A Paladin can LoH Charisma+(1/2 level) per day. Charisma is already a primary stat for them, so it's not like they have few uses to go around. An *extremely* brief look at the LoH powers shows that most paladin will probably have points to spare- since most of the powers are situational at best. (no poison? no disease? no enchantments to break? no one needs an extra 8 hp? no reason to use it).
This makes it nearly perfect for Smite. Because Smite has the opposite problem: frequent use but can't use it frequently.
I would keep Smite just as it is now, but make it cost LoH to use.
If it cost 2 points per use:
the average paladin could use it twice a day from level 2 on.
Every 2nd level thereafter they would get a mandatory extra.
*note this would mandate either moving Smite to level 2, or letting them use it once a day at level 1, and then attach it to LoH at level 2. Or moving LoH to level 1)
Assuming a 12 Charisma this would mean a 20th level paladin could use their Smite 11 times per day. At 20, we would hpoe his charisma would be higher.
This would mean Aura of Justice would cost 4 LoH.
Odd thought:
Thoughts?
-S
the problem is I feel myself getting snarky and I don't like the tone I'm noticing in my posts. I try to be more persuasive and right now I feel kind of confrontational because having the paladin actually feel like a paladin for more than a single underwhelming attack per day is really important to me.
God I feel this way too...you are right man. I didnt even realize it until I read your post. I care about the paladin so much that to see so many people giving very poor examples of why these changes should NOT be made is actually upsetting me. If I have come off as an overbearing ass I am sorry. But as Lastknightleft said, this class means a LOT to me, and I just want to see it placed where it should be because it quite frankly is so sub par that it is actually upsetting some of us :(
And just as a quick aside:
I don't really have a problem with power creep, per se.
The problem the game has though is that there are alot of melee classes, and not alot of melee abilities to go around. Eventually classes start stepping on the toes of other classes.
The fighter and barbarian are already extremely close when it comes to raw damage- especially with the new things the Barbarian can do with rage and while raging. The penalty though is their AC tends to suffer both from the effects from Rage and from them being a medium armor class.
If the barbarian can do more damage and the paladin can do equal-or-near-to with the same or near AC, and better magic defenses, then the problem quickly becomes: the fighter is an NPC class.
I'm not worried about power creep, but the fighter absolutely has to retain SOME niche in the party, otherwise all we've accomplished is to write him out. Not necessarily a bad thing but it does play havoc with backward compatibility.
The paladin is extremely formidable defense wise. He has a solid defense against everything that requires an attack roll or a saving throw. That only leaves the non-saves to deal with and Paizo is whittling away at those spells to make them far less attractive to spell casters. Not that they shouldn't- but the fact that they are Is an issue when deciding what class to take.
The Paladin is an excellent defender with a modicum of options he can use both in and out of battle.
The Barbarian is an excellent offender with a (smaller) modicum of things he can do in and out of combat.
If the Fighter doesn't fit between them- since he doesn't outshine either one in Their niche- then he's just gone.
The ranger is the better archer, the barb is the better 2h'er, the rogue is the better 2wp'er. The Fighter has to shine somewhere, and that means the paladin can't do close to or more consistent melee damage than he does since he's already a better overall defender. That is "where I'm coming from" so to speak.
If we have to keep the fighter, we have to give him a niche.
-S
I've not noticed either of you being overbearing or snarky..
I say, keep up the good posts. :)
-S
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Thoughts?
My thoughts are that I'm rather impressed, honestly I think the disparity could be fixed simply by saying you can use it to either smite, or lay on hands. not require the 2 point rule. You've seen my playtest report. smite evil 4 times a day would not be a significant boost to make it overbalanced.
One minor problem is that every level that you gain a smite is a level where that is considered an ability. if we tie it to lay on hand, which I must admit is brilliant, then we have to find a way to make all those levels where he would have gained his smite not feel gimped.
I'm really glad I got you to throw out an idea, the only other issue I can see is that Lay on Hands would almost dissapear from use. And if there was a cleric in the party or you hit level 4 and have your channel it would be completely subsummed by smite. Except when you use it for the alternate effects.
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I've not noticed either of you being overbearing or snarky..
I say, keep up the good posts. :)
-S
Yeah but this is only one of about 15 paladin threads I'm talking in and my playtest thread I'm pratically yelling about how I'm not getting utility out of my class features. If you read them all there like two or three where I think I come across snarky.
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I'm not worried about power creep, but the fighter absolutely has to retain SOME niche in the party, otherwise all we've accomplished is to write him out. Not necessarily a bad thing but it does play havoc with backward compatibility.
The paladin is extremely formidable defense wise. He has a solid defense against everything that requires an attack roll or a saving throw. That only leaves the non-saves to deal with and Paizo is whittling away at those spells to make them far less attractive to spell casters. Not that they shouldn't- but the fact that they are Is an issue when deciding what class to take.
Which is why my main concern is merely getting smite to an acceptable level and why I honestly haven't ventured an opinion on the lightbringer ability because I honestly don't think it's needed or has much chance of implementation if smite gets fixed. I could be wrong, but that's why I tend to not deal with it, I just know how annoying it is to hear again and again that it's not good. So I was just keeping my peace.
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I'm not worried about power creep, but the fighter absolutely has to retain SOME niche in the party, otherwise all we've accomplished is to write him out. Not necessarily a bad thing but it does play havoc with backward compatibility.
Well I've already illicitly expressed and illustrated how that is not happening - even with my insistence that the paladin get the needed boosts. It still shows the fighter at being better at all things attks, dmg and AC, number of feats, etc, STILL.....all except saves. And yet you still used that same concern that was proven not to hold water as the crux of your argument.
Which of course the fighter still has a great fort save, resistances to fear, enough hit points to survive reflex saves, typically a better dex than the paladin, a better con than the paladin both of which helps balance it, AND can afford the feats of Iron Will and Lightning Ref to help make up the difference there, too!
And frankly I'm tired of the paladins only moment of shining is when waiting to be the victim of a magical attack. If thats what you think the paladin as the heroic champion should be relegated to as his true time to shine, then we already disagree completely and no amount of discussion will alter either opinion. Currently, thats the only time the paladin sees any glory - is waiting to make a savng throw....and personally I find that a travesty that that's all the paladin is good for anymore.
Robert
Thanx for posting Selgard I am happy to be bouncing some good ideas around here.
I first want to point out that when paladins get "heal" at lvl 18 it does not currently heal 150 pts like people want to think. The paladin caster level at 18 is only 9, thus it heals 90 pts (unless something has changed). I have no real problem with this, I just wanted to point it out.
As for your idea of using LoH uses for Smites, you could be on to something like Lastknight said. Though I think if you were going to do this you would just give paladins a "Divine" pool, like barbs have Rage and Monks have Ki. this Divine pool is where the paladin would pull his uses of smite and LoH from. This number would have to be a significant one though as you are drawing two abilities from it.
Though I do have to disagree with you assessment that giving paladins an "always on" damage boost would push fighters out of their niche. As Robert has already illustrated the fighter is far above the paladin already (even if the paladin gets equal str, the fighter still has the advantage through weapon training and feats). If you allow for Roberts idea or mine to be figured in (always on) then this would only allow the paladin to stand in the fight alongside the fighter, not OUTshine him.
You are worried about the fighter not having a niche and yes that is an issue, but ask yourself please...what is the paladin's niche? I say it is fighting evil and right now fighters, barbarians, rogues and in some cases rangers do this better than he does...that is not right and should be addressed. Ive said it dozens of times now, the always on effect (vs. evil only!) does this. He does not step up and make fighters worthless, he just steps up and says "hey this is something I can help you with, this is where im good!"
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I first want to point out that when paladins get "heal" at lvl 18 it does not currently heal 150 pts like people want to think. The paladin caster level at 18 is only 9, thus it heals 90 pts (unless something has changed).
Heal (Sp): At 18th level, a paladin can spend four uses of her lay on hands ability to heal, as the spell. Her caster level for this effect is equal to her paladin level.
The only place where a paladin's caster level is half her class level is when talking about her actual spells.
I first want to point out that when paladins get "heal" at lvl 18 it does not currently heal 150 pts like people want to think. The paladin caster level at 18 is only 9, thus it heals 90 pts (unless something has changed).Heal (Sp): At 18th level, a paladin can spend four uses of her lay on hands ability to heal, as the spell. Her caster level for this effect is equal to her paladin level.The only place where a paladin's caster level is half her class level is when talking about her actual spells.
Yep, I completely missed that. Thank you!
First off:
I'm not "making it his niche".
They already made the niches.
I am Not the enemy of the Paladin. I'm simply trying to come up with ideas that will actually work in light of what they are trying to do /with all the classes/.
I'm personally not against them scrapping the fighter into the trash heap. But they aren't going to.
You want the Paladin to be the holy fighter. The problem is that the Fighter is already the Fighter.
The issue isn't "how I see the paladin" but "how can the paladin fit meaningfully into the game without overwriting other classes in the process".
Perhaps the best way is to delete the Paladin and make it a cleric prestige class? Maybe- but that's as likely to happen as the deletion of the fighter.
The paladin is the best at magical defense. His Fort save is *at least* on par with the fighter and barbarian- the trio of them being the "big 3" no one's casting Fort saves at anyway.
That leaves Reflex saves- the one all 3 have Hp to absorb even if they fail (and which the Paladin is least likely to fail) and the Will save which, incidentally, the Paladin is least likely to fail. Unless the Fighter or Barbarian has a higher dex and wis than the Paladin does charisma, the Paladin will have better saves. And the Paladin gets his wis and dex as well (though admittedly his dex will probably not be above 10, and might even be negative).
His Ac soars compared to the barbarian and at least comes close to the Fighter- with only the Fighters armor training making a difference in that battle. The difference is close enough, when added into the fact the paladin Saves.
Overall, his defenses are far better than the Fighter and the Barbarian.
That leaves Damage.
I do Not believe that every paladin will have equivalent strength to every fighter or barbarian. However, you have to allow for a paladin who will do that when you assign combat abilities otherwise you have the potential for abuse in games that have more points or that allow for folks to roll their stats. Or for the PC who choses to put more weight in strength than someone who tries to keep all his attributes high. All of which I think you will agree are not only possible, but frequent occurrences. If you use a low point buy and spread your points out then you do, of course, need relatively high attack and damage modifiers to compensate for the character's lack. The problem is that not all characters are so lacking. This means that a relatively good compensation can rapidly lead to overcompensation or even over powered (when compared to the other melee classes). That is why I am against a flat out level-based increase to their attacks and damage.
Heal.
My note on that was just an aside comparing damage done with smite per point of LOH spent, compared to that healed by the Heal ability and the LoH cost of it. Thanks for correcting my CL error, however.
Secondly
1 ability per level:
There are a couple of things I'm tempted to do here.
There are 6 "Smite" holes we have to fill If the designers choose to build Smite into LoH. That means 6 potential places to create a whole new power, or increase on old ones.
Myself, I prefer to shore up older problems than to create potentially new ones.
4th level: (left empty, since they get channel energy at this level)
7th level: Paladin Only spells cast as swift action
10th level: Caster level = Paladin Level
13th level: Divine Bone Weapon: Swift Action
16th level: (insert ideas here)
19th level: (insert ideas here)
Ideally somewhere in there you should get a bonus to the amount LOH heals per use. Either as a base ability or as an increase. 16th just seems So late for that given you get Heal, but the other things really are more important to the action-paladin than a little extra healing. Esp when the Paladin will likely be burning most of his LOH on smites, such that any amount of healing will likely not matter. And they get channeling on top of that, anyway.
-S
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I do Not believe that every paladin will have equivalent strength to every fighter or barbarian. However, you have to allow for a paladin who will do that when you assign combat abilities otherwise you have the potential for abuse in games that have more points or that allow for folks to roll their...
This is actually quite myopic in fact. True, not every paladin is going to be exactly the same build. My illustrations were on status quo.
By the same token, some fighters and barbarians will use the same capablility to build a character, or lucky dice rolls for a fighter's stats etc and blow the status quo away as well - this is not just an issue that could be faced by a paladin player. On the other end of the spectrum, some fighters may decide to be built on light armor and dex like a swashbuckler. In each case and design there are going to be advantages and disadvantages of course. In such a case the paladin may have a better damage output. The fighter still has the AC, the movement now (in light armor), and the tricks/feats on his side.
A player of a fighter or barbarian could choose to put all stat points in strength to the detriment of everything else with the 'to-hell-with-diversity' mentality and make an even larger disparity between the fighter and the status quo paladin I indicated. A player of a fighter is using the 4d6 method is just as capable of rolling superior stat totals as a player of a paladin would - in which case the disparity that I've listed is even greater. The inverse is true of course if it is the player of the paladin that rolls superiorly.
But we cant argue best case scenario luck rolls for one class while assumed status quo for the other. If were comparing apples to apples, then the examples should be the ability score capabilities as even across the board.
Even so, I concede that such a player of a paladin with a good point buy generosity by the DM could stack the deck in the strength department to the detriment of all others. And such a character - coupled with my suggestions would indeed have a significant advantage going toe-to-toe with his enemies. Okay, so a player who starts off his paladin with the 18 STR and gains the advantage of the Divine Might vs evil - may....MAY have an attack roll equal that of a fighter....until greater weapon focus, and weapon training multiples begins to stack up. Still wont have the AC, of the fighters, still wont have the feats to do all the cool combat maneuvers.....
Finally you show me someone who cuts his nose in that manner to start off to be comparable to a fighters strength and attack/dmg output at first level, and I'll show you a paladin that does nothing else. He can't cast many spells if any, he can't channel energy, his smite evil is now a +1 to attacks MAYBE, his divine grace might give him a bonus of +1 to saves - which the fighter can outdo with his feats.
In such a case, I'm confident when I say such a player is better off playing a fighter for all intents and purpses, and I'm furthermore confident that there's not the level of disparity and difference for concern that you initially cautioned.
In no example or potential design do I see the paladin - even with ALL my proposed add-ons used, outshining the fighter in attacks, dmg, or AC. Maybe a round or two a combat with the right buffs, and the right smite evil vs the right opponent, but the norm is on the fighters side all the time; and usually they dont need to cast their buffs to do it - the fighters buffs are always active.
Robert
One minor problem is that every level that you gain a smite is a level where that is considered an ability. if we tie it to lay on hand, which I must admit is brilliant, then we have to find a way to make all those levels where he would have gained his smite not feel gimped.
At those newly "empty" levels, why not allow the Paladin to pick a bonus Divine feat? That would allow some diversity and customization to what is currently a very rigidly defined class.
Also, it seems odd to me that the paladin has two pools of supernatural energy: Lay on Hands, and Channel Positive Energy. Why don't we unify those into one? Smite, LoH, Break Enchantment, etc... I could see all of those being powered by Channel Energy. This would also mesh better with the redesign of the Barbarian's Rage being turned into a pool or rounds/day feature.
Everything I wanted to say Robert already said and said it better.
He is exactly right, and all the proposed changes to the paladin would not make him BETTER than the fighter. I do not know how many times the people that are for these changes have to provide numbers that prove the point but it is simple truth.
I obviously do not say it as eloquently but I have to chime in because I believe that with Pathfinder we finally have a system that could do the paladin the justice it deserves. We only have 2 weeks to put forth a good enough fight to get our points across and heard. I dont feel like I can even begin to put in enough effort to achieve this but I think there are enough supporters here to get the changes made that would really help.
Looking at Roberts numbers, Lastknights play tests and all the other posts that present solid arguments, quantitative AND qualitative, I just do not see how or why anyone would still argue AGAINST most of these changes.
We are telling you that we love this class for what it stands for, but we have blead with it for so long because it does not actually DO what the fluff talks about. The current version of the paladin in the PF beta is a HUGE improvement over the 3.5 paladin. But even then that is not saying that much because the 3.5 version was so SO terrible.
All we are arguing for is an equal stake in combats where evil is involved. Barbarians will still do horrendous damage all the time, fighters will still do great damage and have great AC and many different feats to do a variety of things. Rangers will still be able to have a ton of feats and work wonders on their favored enemies in their favored terrains. Rogues will still do ... what is it...1D6 extra damage every other level? None of that is going to change, and after reading some of the fighter/barbarian/ranger design forum posts, they may actually get BETTER.
We are just saying that when the fight is against evil that the paladin should be a viable, efficient and capable combatant for all aspects of the fight, JUST like the rest of these classes are and will still be. Currently, as Robert has already said the ONLY place the paladin gets to shine is standing there waiting to say "hah you tried to cast a spell on me, watch me save!" I am sorry I have to agree, that does not feel very heroic to me.
Well I just dont know what else to say. I dont want to come off as (last knight said it) "Snarky" but it is so hard to understand why there are people against allowing the paladin to be a capable fighter in the combats vs. evil.
I agree an overhaul is needed. The Golarion Campaign Setting "Holy Warrior" option lets a cleric give up their domains for d10 HD and fighter BAB, and they become a better paladin than the paladin. If a tweak makes another class dominate yours in the same niche, there's work needed. Heck, a fighter with a one level cleric dip is better than a pally through about level 8.
The warrior should be a better all around fighter. The paladin should shine when fighting Evil with a capital E. The auras and smites are the places to focus on. When fighting ogres or constructs or carrion crawlers the fighter should be the best (with the barbarian doing better peak damage in bursts). When fighting demons/evil outsiders or undead the paladin should outstrip them in both resistances and damage output (hit points and otherwise).
I always thought the lay on hands should heal a bit more.
But, your basing most of the comparisons on evenly statted paladins and other classes. As a DM , I advise against making a paladin character unless you rolled really well. These diparities only reinforce the notion that paladins should be rare. When you encounter one , it should press unsaid into your mind that they probably have several high rolled stats. And therefore not the average adventurer. If you really want to play a paladin from the outset of a game dont use point buy. Roll and get enough high scores to get the paladin. If you dont roll high enough take the holy warrior trait from the PF Campaign setting and try again next time.
Paladins are rare. They shouldnt be on the same level as the common classes.
I'm enjoying all of the discussion about the paladin here and in the other threads.
Your point about the paladin and its abilities vs evil outsiders/demons/devils/undead is well taken but we must agree that the paladin isn't likely to see these kind of creatures (aside from some weak undead) until the pally has more than just a few levels under their belt.
I'm not sure that's true. In our last campaign (Rise of the Runelords AP) we fought a quasit at level 1. Evil outsiders and undead certainly aren't all of your foes, but they are a healthy chunk of them even at low levels. I hear in Curse of the Crimson Throne, imps live in the eaves of buildings like vermin!
When fighting the other guys, paladins are fine. They're not as much with the damage vs. ogres, but that's what barbarians are for. Pallys still fight fine, with BAB and feats equal to a ranger or barbarian, and have the auras and healing and spells besides. Their true "spike" should be vs. Evil. They should be competitive with anyone else vs. random foes, and they are; a ranger is a good compare.
Allow me to also throw in my support for the Paladin and a desire to make him better.IMO, the Paladin, vs the uber evil that is Devils, Demons, etc, should actually be AT LEAST as good, if not better than most other classes. I also really like the World of Warcraft take on the Paladin: He should be able survive on his own, and with others, really shine.
I fail to see what the big deal is if the Paladin's Smite is boosted either in uses or bonuses and how this would make the Fighter less of a fighter. Let's say the Smite gets the 1+Cha number of smites and at first level pulls of an 18 Cha, for a total of 5 per day.
Ok, not bad. now then, first combat of the day: 6 level 2 Skeletons. He uses two smites, down to three. second combat of the day: 4 evil orcs, he uses one smite, down to 2. third combat of the day, 5 zombies, he uses his last two smites. now he has none left. 4th combat of the day, 4 skeletons and 1 evil ogre BBEG. now he's out of Smites, but the fighter is still kicking ass and doing solid damage vs all the opponents he fights in all the combats of the day.
Of course, if one or two of those battles are vs non-evil monsters, then the Paladin would still have some smites for the battle vs the ogre, but he probably felt a little useless in those combats.
Sadly, once more somebody's thrown out a bunch of numbers that proves a Paladin could use a boost, and chances are the anti-paladin folks out there will just ignore these numbers and shout again and again that the Paladin is fine, because he kicksass on D.
Which really, when i think about it, is a S*#Tastic argument. Your telling me that the Paladin doesn't need a boost in combat because it's awesome at sucking up damage and other attacks? WHAT THE F*#K kind of class role is that?? That works fine in WoW, where a Tank is needed in order to progress and even then for some gold, you can switch to a more damage output talent build. However, in D&D, if your built to take damage and survive, your stuck that way, which isn't always fun for everybody. and I have to say, i don't think Paizo would like to stick people for good into one role....that's too much like 4e.
I always thought the lay on hands should heal a bit more.
If Lay on Hands (and the other paladin abilities), used Channel Energy instead, I'd say that would give us a good starting point on how much extra HP could be healed. i.e. If a Channeling can normally heal or damage everything in a set radius, I'd have it do increased healing when it's restricted to just one target via LoH. Same thing goes if they used channeling to power the smite. This would certainly make how a holy warrior channels energy be unique from how a priest does so and it would give them more flexibility.
But, your basing most of the comparisons on evenly statted paladins and other classes. As a DM , I advise against making a paladin character unless you rolled really well. [snip] If you really want to play a paladin from the outset of a game dont use point buy. Roll and get enough high scores to get the paladin. If you dont roll high enough take the holy warrior trait from the PF Campaign setting and try again next time.
The problem here is that you and I are both DMs. WE are the ones who dictate whether the player can roll their stats or must use point buy. As such, it's not a fair argument to say that players shouldn't try to make a paladin if they are using point buy — chances are, it's not their call. With that in mind, a fix is needed so that the Paladin can be used in all groups — I don't want to tell mine that paladins are off-limits simply because I'm requiring them to use point-buy...
Post appear! >:|
EDIT: Ha, magic!
But, your basing most of the comparisons on evenly statted paladins and other classes. As a DM , I advise against making a paladin character unless you rolled really well. [snip] If you really want to play a paladin from the outset of a game dont use point buy. Roll and get enough high scores to get the paladin. If you dont roll high enough take the holy warrior trait from the PF Campaign setting and try again next time.The problem here is that you and I are both DMs. WE are the ones who dictate whether the player can roll their stats or must use point buy. As such, it's not a fair argument to say that players shouldn't try to make a paladin if they are using point buy — chances are, it's not their call. With that in mind, a fix is needed so that the Paladin can be used in all groups — I don't want to tell mine that paladins are off-limits simply because I'm requiring them to use point-buy...
Then consider giving them a few extra points to make the pally. Explain to the other players it is to compensate for trying to role play a difficult character (code of conduct and all). Because it is a "special" class for role play reasons that will never see the light as a set of mechanics.
The paladin shouldnt be available to every player anyway. Only the ones that have had a bit of pratice playing RPGs. They may want to play a paladin as their very first character ever. just say 'No'. You dont let someone with a learner's permit to drive a semi or a tank. Why throw a new player into one of the most difficult classes.
Then consider giving them a few extra points to make the pally. Explain to the other players it is to compensate for trying to role play a difficult character (code of conduct and all). Because it is a "special" class for role play reasons that will never see the light as a set of mechanics.
The paladin shouldnt be available to every player anyway. Only the ones that have had a bit of pratice playing RPGs. They may want to play a paladin as their very first character ever. just say 'No'. You dont let someone with a learner's permit to drive a semi or a tank. Why throw a new player into one of the most difficult classes.
I have seen some good posts here! But I have to disagree with you here. If the paladin is so poorly made that you are forced to give them extra points to make them keep up then that just proves the point that the paladin needs a boost. I think most of the comments here are saying the same thing. Right now paladins are "weak" in all areas (minus saves). Reading through all of these posts the grand consensus is that where we fix this is in their ability to fight evil. With the changes listed to Smite and the proposed editions of lightbringer or Divine might I think we can do that.
Use these new "always on" and smite mechanics at the table a few times. I bet you get the same numbers I have and that Robert Brambley has stated above. Even with all these effects working for the paladin the other melee classes STILL do more damage and have a better AC. All this does is allow the paladin to shine in that fight against evil, where when fighting all that other stuff that is NOT evil, the paladin just gets to help out a very small amount while the other guys are still smashing away and having a ton of fun in the fight.
Allow me to also throw in my support for the Paladin and a desire to make him better.IMO, the Paladin, vs the uber evil that is Devils, Demons, etc, should actually be AT LEAST as good, if not better than most other classes. I also really like the World of Warcraft take on the Paladin: He should be able survive on his own, and with others, really shine.
I fail to see what the big deal is if the Paladin's Smite is boosted either in uses or bonuses and how this would make the Fighter less of a fighter. Let's say the Smite gets the 1+Cha number of smites and at first level pulls of an 18 Cha, for a total of 5 per day.
Ok, not bad. now then, first combat of the day: 6 level 2 Skeletons. He uses two smites, down to three. second combat of the day: 4 evil orcs, he uses one smite, down to 2. third combat of the day, 5 zombies, he uses his last two smites. now he has none left. 4th combat of the day, 4 skeletons and 1 evil ogre BBEG. now he's out of Smites, but the fighter is still kicking ass and doing solid damage vs all the opponents he fights in all the combats of the day.
Of course, if one or two of those battles are vs non-evil monsters, then the Paladin would still have some smites for the battle vs the ogre, but he probably felt a little useless in those combats.
Sadly, once more somebody's thrown out a bunch of numbers that proves a Paladin could use a boost, and chances are the anti-paladin folks out there will just ignore these numbers and shout again and again that the Paladin is fine, because he kicksass on D.
Which really, when i think about it, is a S*#Tastic argument. Your telling me that the Paladin doesn't need a boost in combat because it's awesome at sucking up damage and other attacks? WHAT THE F*#K kind of class role is that?? That works fine in WoW, where a Tank is needed in order to progress and even then for some gold, you can switch to a more damage output talent build. However, in D&D, if your built to take damage and survive, your stuck that way, which isn't always fun for...
Hey, all good points here but dont get to agitated. You are right, you just threw out yet ANOTHER example of why these changes would not be over powered and make the paladin the end all be all fighter. And yes it will probably be weakly argued again and again just like the other hundred posts out there that try to say the numbers dont prove it.
I am starting to think that many of the people that are against the paladin dont have as many combats in a day as have been suggested. I think this would maybe start to explain why they are against a boost to the paladin. But on the other hand it also seems to me that if you are not having very many combats then "boosting" any of the melee's shouldnt be much of a problem. That is where they shine, so if you just dont have combats then the worry that they will outshine anyone is already gone.
I dont know, I am just as confused as you. Why cant the paladin be made into a capable combatant in the fight against evil more than a VERY few times a day?
Then consider giving them a few extra points to make the pally. Explain to the other players it is to compensate for trying to role play a difficult character (code of conduct and all). Because it is a "special" class for role play reasons that will never see the light as a set of mechanics.
I'm not sure I like that solution, it seems like too much of a band-aid. Being as we are in a playtest, that just seems like it addresses the symptoms rather than the underlying issues affecting the paladin.
The paladin shouldnt be available to every player anyway. Only the ones that have had a bit of pratice playing RPGs. They may want to play a paladin as their very first character ever. just say 'No'. You dont let someone with a learner's permit to drive a semi or a tank. Why throw a new player into one of the most difficult classes.
Having started D&D with 2nd Ed, I can understand where you are coming from here. However, being as this is still a form of recreation, I'm inclined to let my players be the ones who decide what sort of a character they'd like to make. In past campaigns, I've allowed pixie warmages, minotaur rangers, spectral knights, and more. The only reason I'm not doing so at-the-moment is for the sake of playtesting what's in PfRPG.
In terms of the paladin being difficult to play, I'll have to disagree with you:
* The PfRPG paladin is one of the easiest of the PfRPG classes to build — compared to other melee classes, they have practically no room for customization except the standard feats, and one of two options for Divine Bond. The only caveat is if another more experienced player isn't handy to let the newbie know they need several good attributes. (This isn't an issue in my games because I review the characters of new players, and give them suggestions.)
* In terms of game-play mechanics, they are much easier to play than a fighter with all their feats, or a barbarian's rage options. Their more spellcasting and channelling don't come until they are a few levels into the class, by which time a new player starting with a 1st level character should have more than a few sessions under their belt.
* The only difficult aspect of playing a paladin (aside from the antics of other players) is the purely role-playing aspect. This takes no rules knowledge and requires the player to have simply a mature mindset and know how to think morally and ethically. Unless they are a psycho in real-life, that shouldn't be too hard either.
I have seen some good posts here! But I have to disagree with you here. If the paladin is so poorly made that you are forced to give them extra points to make them keep up then that just proves the point that the paladin needs a boost. I think most of the comments here are saying the same thing. Right now paladins are "weak" in all areas (minus saves).
only because they have spread what they are to specialise in so thinly. You have basically a tank/mage/healer to borrow MMO terms, and your upset because it doesnt tank as well as a tank that doesnt buff/heal.
o.0
* The only difficult aspect of playing a paladin (aside from the antics of other players) is the purely role-playing aspect. This takes no rules knowledge and requires the player to have simply a mature mindset and know how to think morally and ethically. Unless they are a psycho in real-life, that shouldn't be too hard either.
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this , while true, made me laugh my arse off