Paladin - feature breakdown

[ruemere]

This is short list of notes gathered after creating 12th level Paladin characters.

1. Skill Ranks Per Level: 2 + Int

Should be "Skill Points Per Level"
Not enough to personalize character. Paladin is one of the prominent victims of MAD syndrome (Multiple Ability Dependency) and intelligence does not rank high in terms of priority.

Advice: boost up to 4.

2. Aura of Good (Ex)

Can we please add some meaning to this ability? As it is now, it does nothing.

3. Detect Evil (Sp)

Staple of paladinhood, the most hated low level ability for all whodunit scenarios. It may be fixed with limiting its applicability to Suprise round automatic detection, but still, it would change a lot.

4. Smite Evil (Su)

Not terribly useful. If it worked like Barbarian rage in terms of duration, it could have had some potential. As it is now, it does not come into play very often. And even if it does, by the time it does +20 damage, the damage is not very danagerous.
Suggestion: Duration as per Barbarian rage instead of one shot use.

5. Divine Grace (Su)

Staple of paladinhood, loses some significance at higher levels unless character invests heavily into +Cha items.

6. Lay On Hands (Su)

Nerfed beyond any semblance of usefulness. 10th level paladin can expect to receive 100 points of damage within a round while being able to heal 1/10 of that.

Suggestion #1: Remove limitation on number of points healed or damage dealt (yes, this is going to allow Paladins to heal for
([paladin level]/2 + [Cha bonus]) * [paladin level])

Oh heck, if you find this formula clumsy, simplify it to
(10 + Cha bonus) * paladin level

Suggestion #2: Make use of this ability on self to be Swift action.

Why the suggestions: this ability, especially at higher levels, will keep the character going against really serious challenges. It's nothing astounding to learn that one was dealt 40 or 80 points by an iron golem. It's important however, not to die in the next round.

7. Aura of Courage (Su)

Great ability.

8. Divine Health (Ex)

Classic.

9. Channel Positive Energy (Su)

Paladin turning sucked in general, unless Paladins were optimized for high Charisma. Now, this new and improved turning replacement, is not Charisma dependent. Also, requires browsing of another class section to find out details of actual mechanics.

Suggestion #1: Paladin should not be poor-man's response to turning specialist, so Channel Positive Energy should become fully operational (i.e. no artificial "cleric three levels lower" limitation").
Suggestion #2: Repeat after me: Don't nerf Paladin abilities. Everything Paladin does, can be usually done much better by a Cleric with Quickened buffs so we don't need to nerf Channel Positive Energy.

10. Spells

I have played paladins over years and incarnations of various versions of the system. And I'd like to say that Paladin spells (with the exception of some 4th level unique spells) are useless. Weak effects, short duration, easily dispellable (half caster level, anyone?). Their list is severly limited and their spell slots allotment is minimal, especially since this is MAD victim class.

There is no easy way around the problem, except possibly these below.

Suggestion: Make Paladin spontaneous caster like Sorcerer and Bard.
Suggestion #2: Make Paladin use full level as caster level, not 1/2. As it is, the durations and ease of dispelling make for a very limited usefulness of his spells.
Suggestion #: Add spells listed below as spell like abilities to Paladin Spell list.

11. Divine Bond (Sp)

Great ability. Pokemounts were not terribly useful, but the weapon easily solves warrior golfbag syndrome (i.e. warrior needs different weapons to deal with different damage reductions).
The duration is not spelt clearly though - it's probably 1 minute per level, usable once at 5th, twice at 9th, thrice at 13th, four times at 17th.

Suggestion #1: Make it Supernatural instead of Spelllike ability.
Suggestion #2: Make activation Swift action (Paladins are warriors, they should not dawdle casting buffs).
Suggestion #3: Clearly spell duration and number of uses. For example: This ability lasts until dimissed or one minute per level, whichever comes first. The paladin may use it once per five levels of paladin class to the maximum of 4 times at 20th level.

12. Remove Disease (Sp)

Great idea, problem with ability cost. Resource management should be simplified, not made more complex. Paladins already have: spell slots, numerous abilities with uses/day cost type, abilities which cost uses of Smite Evil, and now we have ability which costs Lay on Hands uses. Apart from removing limits, it is strongly advised this cost.

Suggestion #1: Make it usable once per 6 levels.
Suggestion #2 (alternative): Add Remove Disease, since its already a Spelllike ability, to Paladin spell list and make Paladin spontaneous caster (see 10.).

13. Aura of Resolve (Su)

Great ability.

14. Remove Curse (Sp)

Great idea, problem with ability cost. Resource management should be simplified, not made more complex. Paladins already have: spell slots, numerous abilities with uses/day cost type, abilities which cost uses of Smite Evil, and now we have ability which costs Lay on Hands uses. Apart from removing limits, it is strongly advised this cost.

Suggestion #1: Make it usable once per 9 levels.
Suggestion #2 (alternative): Add Remove Disease, since its already a Spelllike ability, to Paladin spell list and make Paladin spontaneous caster (see 10.).

15. Aura of Justice (Su)

Interesting but somehow little appealing. I do not like idea of ability using up Smite evil uses, so could we simply limit usage to once per day per 10 levels of Paladin?

16. Neutralize Poison (Sp)

Good idea, but still. If it was on the list of paladin spells and if the paladin was a spontaneous caster, there would be no need to list is as a separate ability (like 12 and 14).

17. Aura of Faith (Su)

Great ability.

18. Break Enchantment (Sp)

Great ability but again, problematic cost. See 12, 14 and 16 for my opinion on this mechanic.

19. Aura of Righteousness (Su)

Great ability, but, hmm, you know, he is supposed to fight evil. Why grant protection from all creatures but those which are Evil, and really powerful at that?

20. Heal (Sp)

Great... etc. See 12, 14, 16 and 18.
If necessary, add 5th level to Paladin spell list.

21. Holy Champion (Su)

Very nice but: 19.

22. Code of Conduct.

Classic handicap. What are the "proficiencies" mentioned here - is it a secret eggish return to 2nd ed of AD&D?

It's also twistable and vague on certain aspects of morality.

Could we simplify it a bit, for example:
Paladin's code of conduct in order of descending importance:
a/ Paladin's alignment must Lawful Good,
b/ Paladin respects any non-evil authority unless that respect would lead him to violation of alignment,
c/ Paladin protects the innocent and punishes the guilty unless it would bring him into conflict with authorities he respects (this is intentionally below b/ in order to make Paladin less of a vigilante),
d/ Paladin acts in such a way as not to bring shame to ideals he follows.
e/ Paladin recognizes other sentient beings as independent entities and acts in such a way so as not to limit others independence. Leading by example, not by a leash, in other words.

Especially lack of e/ is often the reason for internal conflicts. Would be a good idea to add that.

23. Associates.

Request to drop this feature. Should be part of the code of conduct. Also, Paladin should not be limiting anyone's alignment, but support those who act in accordance with his ideals - limiting someone else's freedom is definitely not a nice idea.
So, please allow Paladins to become king, generals or leaders (and drop LG requirement for their followers).

Regards,
Ruemere

[tergiver]

I really like the idea of making the paladin a spontaneous caster. Probably should be done for the ranger too, oh well.

I am very intrigued by the idea of giving the paladin full channel energy progression. I'm not quite sure how the balance would work out, but at first blush I think it's workable. It really would make the paladin more of a bridge between a fighter and a cleric.

[Vult Wrathblades]

Very good breakdown, thank you for posting!

I have to agree with the majority of your points and think that you would agree with many of mine.

I am happy to see that there is such an outcry for the paladin...they were so far from good in 3.5 that it was not even funny! I think PF got them right, but we need to add/change just a few things. I personally feel that Smite (and lightbringer) are the ways to really make this change have an impact!

[Shisumo]

Skill points
Probably won't change at this point. Jason's been pretty clear on that. Time to move on, I think.

Aura of Good
Not every class feature should "do something." The point is that the paladin reads like a cleric for detect good, and that is as it should be.

Detect Evil
Has definitely caused a ton of confusion over the course of the game, but I think this should be better solved by a sidebar on the presence and nature of evil in the world as a whole then by rewriting the ability.

Smite Evil
Clearly inferior by every possible standard of comparison. The barbarian is a good standard of comparison; the rogue might be another. If we are leaving smite evil as uses/day format, it probably should be closer to the barbarian model, though even now with the changes to rage that's less certain. We can also look at the druid for another uses/day buff that massively outstrips the paladin. An extended duration is absolutely key, I think, and a boost to the actual benefits should be involved as well. +(Charisma) to attack and damage vs evil, +1/evil DR, for (Charisma) rounds? Regardless, it must be usable at range.

Divine Grace
Very nice. No issues.

Lay on Hands
Moves the paladin from an in-combat self-healer to an out-of-combat backup party healer. Seems more like a question of class philosophy than a question of balance. There is a huge discontinuity of effectiveness at 18th level, however, when the paladin gains access to heal.

Aura of Courage
Classic and iconic ability, but fairly limited in overall impact. If haunts become a larger part of the game, however, its importance will increase as well.

Divine Health
Again, classic and iconic, but extremely narrow. Poison immunity might be worth considering.

Channel Positive Energy
Since channeling energy has become more of a healing function than a turn undead function, this ability overlaps somewhat with lay on hands. It might be worth exploring the idea of dumping lay on hands entirely and making channel positive energy into a full-power operation, saving the other uses of lay on hands into more standard spell-likes.

Spells
See here.

Divine Bond
Given the extreme specificity of the druid and ranger animal companions, why in the world can't we get some specifics on how the paladin mount works? What can we start with? If I want a dire lion as my mount, why can't I have it? And why aren't we seeing anything to support the idea of a mounted paladin as part of the class' abilities if we go with the mount - mounted combat feats, etc.?

The weapon bonuses need to be more clearly laid out. Duration, of course, but also the specifics of how things add.

Remove Disease
So painfully rare as to be worthless, until you need it. But that's why Nethys made scrolls. I'd almost rather just see this one bite it.

Remove Curse
Same deal, basically.

Aura of Justice
Love it. Comes late enough to have avoided my playtesting so far, though. Anyone actually checked to see how it plays for real? Hard to judge the balance, though, until we know what the new smite evil will accomplish.

Neutralize Poison
See remove disease, remove curse.

Aura of Faith
No problems here. Strongly encourages the paladin to dive into the middle of the fighting, which is just as it should be.

Break Enchantment
Again, see remove disease.

Aura of Righteousness
I think I'd rather see the DR folded into smite evil, as described above, but the mental immunities are right on target. And the evil part of the DR, for better or worse, is how alignment-based DR works.

Holy Champion
Generally very solid. However, much like the discontinuity in healing that occurs when the paladin gains heal, maximizing the effect of the paladin turning is a huge shift, and ludicrously outstrips an equivalent cleric's turning ability (though not the kind of healing that cleric can create with spells).

[Vult Wrathblades]

Shisumo wrote:

Smite Evil
Clearly inferior by every possible standard of comparison. The barbarian is a good standard of comparison; the rogue might be another. If we are leaving smite evil as uses/day format, it probably should be closer to the barbarian model, though even now with the changes to rage that's less certain. We can also look at the druid for another uses/day buff that massively outstrips the paladin. An extended duration is absolutely key, I think, and a boost to the actual benefits should be involved as well. +(Charisma) to attack and damage vs evil, +1/evil DR, for (Charisma) rounds? Regardless, it must be usable at range.

I think everyone is on the same page here. Smite is THE defining paladin ability, it should be what makes them special. In it's current form it is simply inadequate :(

I hope you have some input on some of the other smite threads. I would like to hear what you think about my smite/lightbringer thread.

[ruemere]

Very nice points, everyone.

Three additional comments:

Shisumo wrote:

[...]Aura of Good

Not every class feature should "do something." The point is that the paladin reads like a cleric for detect good, and that is as it should be.

Actually, there is no difference to progression of aura strengths in Detect Evil spell description based on character level. Therefore this ability actually does nothing under Beta rules.

Shisumo wrote:

Lay on Hands

Moves the paladin from an in-combat self-healer to an out-of-combat backup party healer. Seems more like a question of class philosophy than a question of balance. There is a huge discontinuity of effectiveness at 18th level, however, when the paladin gains access to heal.

Generally, unless being spells, Paladin buffs and healing abilities should require Swift actions.

Reasons:
1. Paladins are melee/ranged combat guys. They cannot afford wasting time on healing or buffing themselves, especially since they do not have access to Quicken feat.
2. There is only one Swift action per round (usable on character turn). Of course, one can convert move and standard actions to gain additional Swift actions, but that already spells the round used up on buffing instead of fighting. Reasonable tradeoff.
3. Healing like Lay on hands, usable at Swift action (self-only)/Standard action (others), will allow Cleric to do something besides healing. And Paladin's reservoir of healing is unlikely to last more than 2 rounds.
4. Idea of Swift self-buffs and self-heals works wonderfully in Arcana Evolved. I.e. it's a great addition to melee guys.

Shisumo wrote:

Channel Positive Energy

Since channeling energy has become more of a healing function than a turn undead function, this ability overlaps somewhat with lay on hands. [...]

Actually, it already overlaps in Beta, howerver:

1. It's not enough to heal during intense melee (tested in 12+ level encounter).
2. Uses up standard action (so it does not work good for Melee guys).

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. If anyone feels my suggestion bring in too much power to Paladins, just think like this:
- If I use a Cleric with Quickened buffs, can he do better than Paladin?

If the answer is Yes, or if the answer is "Cleric does as good as Paladin" then you have your answer - why would anyone want to play a Paladin with his restrictions if one can play Cleric with fewer limitations and much grander access to spells?

[Shisumo]

ruemere wrote:

Actually, there is no difference to progression of aura strengths in Detect Evil spell description based on character level. Therefore this ability actually does nothing under Beta rules.

Not true, though it's entirely understandable that you would think so. The relevant chart is on page 215, two pages before the actual spell that references the chart. Nevertheless, the spell reads, "An evil aura's power depends on the typ of evil creature or object that you're detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the case of a cleric) class level;" in the chart on page 215, the "evil cleric" line also includes a footnote that specifies, "Some characters who are not clerics may radiate an aura of equivalent power. The class description will indicate whether this applies." So yes, it stil does it what it did before. Just messier.

EDIT: And I agree with you about swift-action paladin buffs - it's an argument I have already made about paladin spellcasting - but my point here is that the ability itself is no longer a self-buff, but a party boost designed to work out of combat. If that's Jason's intent, then it's precisely where it should be. If it is mostly intended to work on the paladin herself, then it needs to be rewritten.

[Marty1000]

ruemere wrote:

11. Divine Bond (Sp)

Great ability. Pokemounts were not terribly useful, but the weapon easily solves warrior golfbag syndrome (i.e. warrior needs different weapons to deal with different damage reductions).
The duration is not spelt clearly though - it's probably 1 minute per level, usable once at 5th, twice at 9th, thrice at 13th, four times at 17th.

Suggestion #1: Make it Supernatural instead of Spelllike ability.
Suggestion #2: Make activation Swift action (Paladins are warriors, they should not dawdle casting buffs).
Suggestion #3: Clearly spell duration and number of uses. For example: This ability lasts until dimissed or one minute per level, whichever comes first. The paladin may use it once per five levels of paladin class to the maximum of 4 times at 20th level.

I'm sorry but I really dislike the divine bond weapon ability. This basically gives the paladin character a free holy avenger weapon. Although the power of this ability scales with level, ultimately any high level paladin can have a holy avenger from this ability. Perhaps from a design point of view this is to help the paladin make up for some of their combat deficincies, however, from a long time D&D player, this power takes away from the specialness of a paladin's quest to find his own holy avenger.

Also tying this to deity's favored weapon blows. Let there be more than just long sword, long bow or spear wielding pally's (the favored weapons of the 3 LG gods in PF).

As for golf bag syndrome, Pathfinder should do away with 3.5 DR and do back to 3rd Ed DR. They already do this partially in the PF beta.

As for the paladin's special mount. basically as it has been since 1st edition, this is really a fluff ability since the majority of adventures (dungeon crawls, strongholds, et al) make the mount kind of useless especially compared to a druid or rangers companion.

Just my thoughts.

[Quandary]

Aura of Good
I'd actually like to see some effect which progressively made the Paladin beocome equivalent to an Angel or some-such (while still remaining a "Material Plane Native") The main effect I'm thinking of would be they would become more immune to things like "Hold Person", "Dominate Person", etc, since they would be becoming more and more Divine. It could work like the Rogue Abilities that prevent Sneak Attacks, you are only treated as a "Person" for HIGHER level casters than yourself...

Smite Evil
I think a simple improvement of it would be to allow it once PER Evil Opponent. Pretty straight forward and logical.
In that case, I would make it so you don't "use" your Smite Usage unless you actually hit the sucker.

Divine Health
Poison Immunity (while very narrow) sounds great, especially if Poison is considered associated with the Evil Gods. A narrow ability anyways, but it should be solid at what is is.

Divine Bond
Mounted Option: This definetely should be beefed up: More Mount Options/ scaling, like Druid Companion or Arcane Familiar.
+ Why not allow the Paladin free Mounted Combat Feats that only function in conjunction with the Mount?

Weapon Option: Good, but could be improved - Why not allow it to increase the effect of Touch Spells cast "thru" the Weapon? That type of thing....?

Marty1000 wrote:

this power takes away from the specialness of a paladin's quest to find his own holy avenger.

Well, isn't the process of the Paladin levelling up to 20th level in service of their God, itself their quest to achieve a Holy Avenger Weapon? Why would any God NOT want their Paladins to have a Holy Avenger Weapon, if they've proved themselves? This one just makes sense to give the Paladin, in my book.

ruemere wrote:

Generally, unless being spells, Paladin buffs and healing abilities should require Swift actions.

Quoted for Truth. This makes the Paladin's Powers more on par with the Barbarian. As a sub-Par Divine Caster and Melee Combatant, they need to be able to use all their Unique Paladin Abilities as Swift Actions without interfering with normal Combat/ Spellcasting.