I like what Chobbly has summed up so far (except for the last italicized sentence which doesn't quite make sense, but I think everyone knows what it means).
I would add two things:
1. Instead of overcoming DR, the paladin could use a targeted greater dispel magic with a caster level equal to their paladin level.
2. While not part of smite, detect evil becomes a swift action to cast.
I think that would make smite evil nearly perfect.
But just to add another option, maybe we're making smite evil too complicated with what it can and can't do. What about this:
Holy weapon (Su): A paladin can infuse a weapon they wield with holy power. As a swift action the paladin's weapon is considered to have the holy weapon property for a full round, adding 2d6 holy damage against evil creatures. The paladin may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + their Cha modifier at 1st level. They gain an additional use at 4th level and every three levels thereafter. If the paladin already wields a holy weapon, this ability stacks.
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I pretty much agree with the OP on all accounts. I think these are great ideas.
I ESPECIALLY like allowing Smite Evil to also be Smite Chaos, and allowing it to apply to ANY attack, including Combat Maneuvers. And the idea about Damage Reduction is great; if the target is Chaotic or Evil, ALL damage reduction should be negated from a Smite Attack.
My two cents.
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I like what Chobbly has summed up so far (except for the last italicized sentence which doesn't quite make sense, but I think everyone knows what it means).
I would add two things:
1. Instead of overcoming DR, the paladin could use a targeted greater dispel magic with a caster level equal to their paladin level.
2. While not part of smite, detect evil becomes a swift action to cast.I think that would make smite evil nearly perfect.
Just to let you know, even if you make it a swift action to detect you still have to waste two standard actions concentrating on the spell to figure out who is evil. That is why I suggested making the paladin able to concentrate as a move equivalent. Unless you are suggesting that as a swift action you gain all the info as if you were detecting for three rounds, which is an entirely different beast.
But just to add another option, maybe we're making smite evil too complicated with what it can and can't do. What about this:Holy weapon (Su): A paladin can infuse a weapon they wield with holy power. As a swift action the paladin's weapon is considered to have the holy weapon property for a full round, adding 2d6 holy damage against evil creatures. The paladin may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + their Cha modifier at 1st level. They gain an additional use at 4th level and every three levels thereafter. If the paladin already wields a holy weapon, this ability stacks.
Why is it that when we deal with class features we always want to make magic weapon properties into class features? You aren't the only one who does it so don't think that question is directed at you, but honestly I think we can be more creative than turning a weapon property you get through the divine bond into a class feature.
Why is it that when we deal with class features we always want to make magic weapon properties into class features? You aren't the only one who does it so don't think that question is directed at you, but honestly I think we can be more creative than turning a weapon property you get through the divine bond into a class feature.
But just to add another option, maybe we're making smite evil too complicated with what it can and can't do. What about this:
Holy weapon (Su): A paladin can infuse a weapon they wield with holy power. As a swift action the paladin's weapon is considered to have the holy weapon property for a full round, adding 2d6 holy damage against evil creatures. If the paladin already wields a holy weapon, this ability stacks.
That's a solid point, but sometimes, in rare cases, "more creative" isn't necessarily "better." This might be one of those cases; I think Dan is actually on the right track. If the paladin could automatically made any one weapon he wielded holy for as long as he continued wielding it, that would be far more useful than the current smite model.
At the risk of being branded a heretic, I'd even go so far as to make it constant, rather than x/day, but I'd scale the holy damage with level: +1d6 at 1st-4th, +2d6 at 5th-9th, etc., up to a maximum of +5d6 at 20th level. Sound like a lot? A 10th level rogue does +5d6, situationally, on every hit with two weapons; why not let a 10th level paladin do +3d6, situationally, on every hit with one weapon? It wouldn't multiply on a charge or crit, but that would be outweighed by the greater number of potential uses. I might even go so far as to give a sacred bonus to attack rolls against evil opponents equal to the paladin's Cha modifier, with that weapon.
What would this accomplish? (a) keep people interested in staying a paladin long-term; (b) solve all the "fizzling" and lack-of-usage issues; (c) simplify play (no more uses/day to track); and (d) supercede the "penetrates DR as if holy" clause, because it would actually be holy. (In that case, having it stack with an existing holy weapon probably wouldn't be advisable.) Also, the paladin would become an examplar in combat against evil; every party would want a paladin, they way they now want a wizard or cleric. It could go from a lame duck class to a solid contender.
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WHOA! Missed that one! Where is it at???Isn't that what cheap stat-boosters are for?
Fair enough - but cheap isn't so cheap anymore - with PF making it only one mental and one physical item being able to be worn at any given time - sure you can combine multiple ability score enhancements into the same item - but the cost is 50% higher....thus not as cheap as cheap.
Robert
Krome, check the Magic Item section of your Beta. PCs are now limited to only be able to use two slots on you body being used for stat-improving magic items - one mental and one physical.
Robert
Just to let you know, even if you make it a swift action to detect you still have to waste two standard actions concentrating on the spell to figure out who is evil. That is why I suggested making the paladin able to concentrate as a move equivalent. Unless you are suggesting that as a swift action you gain all the info as if you were detecting for three rounds, which is an entirely different beast.
You're right; I'm mixing up house rules with RAW. My gaming group has always ran detect evil a little differently; as a standard action you cast the spell, concentrate on a specific person, and if they fail their will save (SR applies as well) you know whether they're evil or not.
When I was talking about quickening the ability I was thinking about the house rule.
Why is it that when we deal with class features we always want to make magic weapon properties into class features? You aren't the only one who does it so don't think that question is directed at you, but honestly I think we can be more creative than turning a weapon property you get through the divine bond into a class feature.
Weapon properties already exist and are balanced within the rules, so basing class abilities on them have a head start, while coming up with a revised or new class ability requires a much harder and longer look to balance. At least, that's why I did it.
Plus, "paladin is a holy warrior" and "holy weapon property" fit together like chinese food and chocolate pudding.
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You're right; I'm mixing up house rules with RAW. My gaming group has always ran detect evil a little differently; as a standard action you cast the spell, concentrate on a specific person, and if they fail their will save (SR applies as well) you know whether they're evil or not.When I was talking about quickening the ability I was thinking about the house rule.
It's allright we all do it once in a while, the important thing is you're willing to admit it ;)
Weapon properties already exist and are balanced within the rules, so basing class abilities on them have a head start, while coming up with a revised or new class ability requires a much harder and longer look to balance. At least, that's why I did it.
Plus, "paladin is a holy warrior" and "holy weapon property" fit together like chinese food and chocolate pudding.
It's true, the problem you encounter is that between divine bond for weapons and a holy warrior property the only offensive combat abilities that a pally has are able to be replicated by a fighter with a lot of cash. And then done even better because he has all the bonus feats to back him up. That's why I'm personally not a fan of them YMMV.
Smite evil unless it gets overhauled majorly is pretty sad, so is his channeling. His spellcasting is allright but gimped by the half caster level. So I want him to have abilities that a fighter can't replicate easily with some cash and some feats.
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If the paladin could automatically made any one weapon he wielded holy for as long as he continued wielding it, that would be far more useful than the current smite model.
When we transferred our 2E game to 3E, I'd been playing a paladin (Heironymus of Heironeous; yeah, I know...).
We were still testing the rules, and I got disarmed. I wasn't going to bend over in front of a room-full of opponents, and I argued (long and hard) that I should be able to smite with any attack, even a kick to the nuts.
The DM relented, I swung back, hoofed their officer in the 'nads, and killed him!
This seemed to knock a bit of the fight out of his troops, who were then open to Intimidation. Seems they'd quite happily throw themselves on the points of our swords, but the thought of a boot in the jewels, and they happily sold out their boss.
"What was the last thing to go through his mind? HIS BALLS!"
"Ah, smiting, it's good for the sole!"
We were still testing the rules, and I got disarmed. I wasn't going to bend over in front of a room-full of opponents, and I argued (long and hard) that I should be able to smite with any attack, even a kick to the nuts.
Let me clarify: the idea was that I didn't want every paladin in the world to become a TWF, as they would if all weapons became holy simultaneously; one weapon at a time only. In your situation, I'd let you switch from holy sword to holy hoof as a free action. Nads beware.
I've only skimmed this thread.
But has anyone proposed adding the Paladin's Cha modifier to the total number of times a Paladin can smite per day?
Another possibility is to have each smite last a number of rounds equal to the Paladin's Cha modifier.
Simple changes that easily boost Smite Evil's stock in my opinion. I like the former myself, as I can see the latter lasting whole combats if the Paladin's Cha bonus is particularly high.
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I've only skimmed this thread.
But has anyone proposed adding the Paladin's Cha modifier to the total number of times a Paladin can smite per day?
Another possibility is to have each smite last a number of rounds equal to the Paladin's Cha modifier.
Simple changes that easily boost Smite Evil's stock in my opinion. I like the former myself, as I can see the latter lasting whole combats if the Paladin's Cha bonus is particularly high.
I'm not sure if I'm the first person who suggested it or not, good ideas tend to pop up from a lot of posters around here at the same time. But yes, the argument of adding 1+cha smites per round at first level has been suggested by myself and several other posters on several threads about the paladin including my original playtest report. It's generally accepted as a good idea although some people have worried it would lead to dipping levels of paladin, although that argument has been pretty thouroughly argued down.
Basically its agreed that it would be a big step at helping, but still not enough to really make smite a worthwile mechanic, especially since several playtesters have reported on the general uselessness in combat of all of his abilities pre level 5. As his only viable combat option even if he had more per day, the ability has been generally accepted as underwhelming. Thus while we still agree that more smites are practically necessary without a few new low level abilities being added, we are trying to find a way to give smites the desired oomph, and what's great about the smite abilities being discussed here are that it would allow for a player to create 4 different paladins no-two looking alike.
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I've only skimmed this thread.
But has anyone proposed adding the Paladin's Cha modifier to the total number of times a Paladin can smite per day?
Another possibility is to have each smite last a number of rounds equal to the Paladin's Cha modifier.
Simple changes that easily boost Smite Evil's stock in my opinion. I like the former myself, as I can see the latter lasting whole combats if the Paladin's Cha bonus is particularly high.
Yes, I think others have proposed similar ideas. I think the trouble in the former idea is that it encourages maxing out your CHA and "dipping" into Paladin in the similar fashion that picking a level or two of fighter, rogue or barbarian was often in a good idea (from powergaming perspective) in 3E. I rather like "gradual" progression, i.e. one smite/day for every 2 or 3 paladin levels you have, instead of getting 1 + CHA modifier X smites per day at 1st level.
As for the second idea, I think Jason said that he is considering whether to extend the duration of smite effects for one round or not -- remember that if you get the smite bonuses for all combat rounds (which happens if the benefits last for 7+ rounds at higher levels) in every encounter, I think it throws away all game balance. If there will be a change to how smite works, I'd personally prefer Smite/Faith Points or rounds/day.
I rather like "gradual" progression, i.e. one smite/day for every 2 or 3 paladin levels you have, instead of getting 1 + CHA modifier X smites per day at 1st level.
I was thinking the extra smites from Cha bonus would be in addition to the standard progression of extra smites as the Paladin increases in level.
I see the problem now with the possibility of level dipping. There is a simple solution to this... change the wording of the Smite evil description.
Instead of: She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level.
You write: She adds half her paladin level to her attack roll (minimum +1) and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level.
Also throw in a sentence stating that if the smite attempt is used against an evil target, and the attack roll misses, the attempt isn't lost, as I'm sure some people have suggested.
I like the bonuses to hit and damage as I've stated above as well. They are underwhelming by themselves as many have pointed out, but with the suggestion of smite effects listed in other threads, Smiting Evil can be very effective in unique and powerful ways that don't do direct damage (leave that to the other martial classes).
Perhaps one of us should consolidate all the smiting ideas into one thread. I'm finding myself posting different aspects about them in 3 different threads and it's hard to describe the power in any detail without derailing each individual thread.
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A suggestion that I don't think's been proposed to enhance smite is to make the smite itself scale with the evil you're facing. It should probably use the same four way scale for Detect Evil:
Faint: + Cha bonus to attack (minimum +1), + level to damage
Moderate: + Cha bonus +2 to attack, +2*level to damage
Strong: + Cha mod +3 to attack, +3*level to damage
Overwhelming: +Cha mod +5 to attack, +5*level to damage
This ties it in with the existing Detect Evil power and makes thematic sense that for confronting the greatest evil, the power of good aids you more.
Of course, I'd also suggest the smite damage (and just the smite damage rather than the holy weapon property) be holy damage to bypass DR and smites last for Cha mod rounds. Oh, and a pony.
As an issue not directly connected to smites, what do people think of extending Divine Grace to the Paladin's AC as well as Saving Throws? Too powerful? Too weak? Available but not right away?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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A suggestion that I don't think's been proposed to enhance smite is to make the smite itself scale with the evil you're facing. It should probably use the same four way scale for Detect Evil:
Faint: + Cha bonus to attack (minimum +1), + level to damage
Moderate: + Cha bonus +2 to attack, +2*level to damage
Strong: + Cha mod +3 to attack, +3*level to damage
Overwhelming: +Cha mod +5 to attack, +5*level to damageThis ties it in with the existing Detect Evil power and makes thematic sense that for confronting the greatest evil, the power of good aids you more.
I like it. It's great.
It creates more DM homework, but not a lot. Really, strength of evil is not that hard to calculate. Unless it's an evil outsider or evil cleric/blackguard, it's usually going to be faint or moderate at best, and that's fine. But against those hardcores, WHAM!!!
Of course, I'd also suggest the smite damage (and just the smite damage rather than the holy weapon property) be holy damage to bypass DR and smites last for Cha mod rounds. Oh, and a pony.
I want a pony!
And it's well known that I'm on board with smite = good vs. DR at the very least.
As an issue not directly connected to smites, what do people think of extending Divine Grace to the Paladin's AC as well as Saving Throws? Too powerful? Too weak? Available but not right away?
It's a thought, though I wouldn't mind capping Divine Grace with paladin level (like a duelist's AC bonus) for both AC and saves to discourage dippage.
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I rather like "gradual" progression, i.e. one smite/day for every 2 or 3 paladin levels you have, instead of getting 1 + CHA modifier X smites per day at 1st level.I was thinking the extra smites from Cha bonus would be in addition to the standard progression of extra smites as the Paladin increases in level.
I see the problem now with the possibility of level dipping. There is a simple solution to this... change the wording of the Smite evil description.
Instead of: She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level.
You write: She adds half her paladin level to her attack roll (minimum +1) and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level.
Also throw in a sentence stating that if the smite attempt is used against an evil target, and the attack roll misses, the attempt isn't lost, as I'm sure some people have suggested.
I like the bonuses to hit and damage as I've stated above as well. They are underwhelming by themselves as many have pointed out, but with the suggestion of smite effects listed in other threads, Smiting Evil can be very effective in unique and powerful ways that don't do direct damage (leave that to the other martial classes).
Perhaps one of us should consolidate all the smiting ideas into one thread. I'm finding myself posting different aspects about them in 3 different threads and it's hard to describe the power in any detail without derailing each individual thread.
Okay, you understand the problem with level dipping, can you explain it to me, because I am at a loss as to why someone would dip for the ability.
Smites are based on Paladin level and Charisma, in order to make dipping worthwile, you would need to have a decent smite. The only classes that have charisma as a primary stat are Sorcerer and Bard. We'll say they have a 20 charisma so they can have a somewhat decent dip. They dip and gain 6 smites, which provide a +5 to melee attacks, and +1 to damage. lets say they go two levels just for the divine grace. they now have a 6 smites that still provide +5 to hit and +2 to damage now. In exchange they have sacrificed two caster levels. and gotten a bonus to their melee attacks and damage, only against evil creatures, and along with that they now have a rigid code of conduct. They could have dipped one level of fighter, taken law devotion and weapon specialization and had a comparable bonus to hit (ten rounds instead of six at a +3 instead of +5 but wait, it would be useable against every oponent) and the same amount of damage usable against any foe. Not only that, they would have sacrificed one less caster level and not be levied with a debilitating code of conduct.
So I don't understand how having more of a class level dependant ability encourages dipping. You could argue that it has a pull for full on multiclassing. But I don't think anyone has a problem with a class that makes for interesting dual classed characters.
Any other class would have most likely a 16 charisma and then the dipping makes no sense whatsoever because it is actually matched by the single level of fighter without the code of conduct.
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The only three things I can agree on with the OP is...
1. Smite should over Good DR or the DR of Evil Creatures. Now there is a catch though, if the creature has DR/Adamantine or DR/Silver etc., it shouldn't be able to overcome it because smite is an alignment based ability. So if the Evil creature has DR/Evil, Chaos, Godd, Lawful etc. those could be over come by the smite.
2. Smite could be applied to a Ranged attack. The catch here would be if the creature was within 30ft. This is similar to the ability that RotW gave to Elves but since it's not OGL, we have to come up with something else but I still don't think it should span the entire battlefield.
3. Smites should not be expended on a miss. I don't know of many abilities in the game that are expended on a miss. Just the smite.
The reason I agree with these two and none of the others is that I have been doing some playtest with the paladins as well with all martial classes. I found out some statistical numbers that would suggest that the paladin's once per day smite is much better than a once a day Rage. The barbarians rage adds 10% to an attacks chance to hit for that barbarians combat. A paladin's smite can be anywhere from 5% to a 20% (Cha 12-18) increase to an attack in combat. I don't know a Paladin that would take a 11 or less charisma nor one that would have it under a 14 because of the save bonus he gains as well. Once more, even if the paladin uses the smite, he doesn't risk any harm to himself while the barbarian is suffering a -2 to his already low AC. So the paladin that uses a smite against an evil foe gains a tremendous bonus with no penality except once per day and a Barbarian gets that same bonus for a combat while hurting him even more. The trade off is nice if you look at it that way.
I've always wanted a pony :-D
Linking Smite Evil with Detect Evil, in my opinion, is a good concept. I just wonder, with the way Detect Evil currently works, if it would be feasible in combat. I believe Detect Evil is currently a standard action so, unless I understand the rules wrong, you would not be able to detect evil and smite evil in the same round. Detect Evil also requires a bit of concentration to "hone in" on a certain aura doesn't it? Or am I completely off-base with that?
Adding Divine Grace to a Paladin's AC would be pretty powerful unless it's only applicable in certain armor (say light armor). That would make it a little more balanced with the Monk's armor bonus for example (which applies only when unarmored).
And that's my two cents.
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I've always wanted a pony :-D
Linking Smite Evil with Detect Evil, in my opinion, is a good concept. I just wonder, with the way Detect Evil currently works, if it would be feasible in combat. I believe Detect Evil is currently a standard action so, unless I understand the rules wrong, you would not be able to detect evil and smite evil in the same round. Detect Evil also requires a bit of concentration to "hone in" on a certain aura doesn't it? Or am I completely off-base with that?
Adding Divine Grace to a Paladin's AC would be pretty powerful unless it's only applicable in certain armor (say light armor). That would make it a little more balanced with the Monk's armor bonus for example (which applies only when unarmored).
And that's my two cents.
It's not so much linked to Detect Evil as uses the same progression. So it's more a thematic link than mechanical.
The only problem is that Pathfinder Detect Evil treats normal (no-undead, outsider, cleric) evil with less than 5 HD as not evil. So, do we want smite not working on standard goblins? I'd say yes as smite shouldn't be wasted on foot-soldiers, but YMMV.
As for Divine Grace, it could get scary at higher levels when the Paladin is likely to have Headband's of Charisma. It's still an idea, but I'd need to have roper look at it in high level play. On the other hand, the Paladin's incredibly restrictive vows should probably mean that his abilities veer towards the high end to account for his limitations.
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As an issue not directly connected to smites, what do people think of extending Divine Grace to the Paladin's AC as well as Saving Throws? Too powerful? Too weak? Available but not right away?
See divine grace is actually an ability that encourages dipping, adding AC would be making the ability top heavy, I've actually proposed on other threads turning aura of good into a protection from evil spell which would give you an AC boost against evil (I broke it up so that the AC boost came at level 4 the same level the fighter gets his first +1 AC against everything) Having it come from divine grace would work, but I don't think a whole cha mod boost should come before at least level 6.
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The only problem is that Pathfinder Detect Evil treats normal (no-undead, outsider, cleric) evil with less than 5 HD as not evil. So, do we want smite not working on standard goblins? I'd say yes as smite shouldn't be wasted on foot-soldiers, but YMMV.
Can you quote the source for your interpretation of this, I can't find what you're talking about in the spell description.
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I've always wanted a pony :-D
Linking Smite Evil with Detect Evil, in my opinion, is a good concept. I just wonder, with the way Detect Evil currently works, if it would be feasible in combat. I believe Detect Evil is currently a standard action so, unless I understand the rules wrong, you would not be able to detect evil and smite evil in the same round. Detect Evil also requires a bit of concentration to "hone in" on a certain aura doesn't it? Or am I completely off-base with that?
Adding Divine Grace to a Paladin's AC would be pretty powerful unless it's only applicable in certain armor (say light armor). That would make it a little more balanced with the Monk's armor bonus for example (which applies only when unarmored).
And that's my two cents.
It's a standard action and then takes two more standard actions of concentration before you can tell who has the evil aura, not just that it's there.
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Can you quote the source for your interpretation of this, I can't find what you're talking about in the spell description.The only problem is that Pathfinder Detect Evil treats normal (no-undead, outsider, cleric) evil with less than 5 HD as not evil. So, do we want smite not working on standard goblins? I'd say yes as smite shouldn't be wasted on foot-soldiers, but YMMV.
Bottom of page 215 of the Beta. Rather confusingly, 2 pages before the Detect Evil spell appears
Okay, you understand the problem with level dipping, can you explain it to me, because I am at a loss as to why someone would dip for the ability.
Smites are based on Paladin level and Charisma, in order to make dipping worthwile, you would need to have a decent smite.
I'll answer this with two assumptions in mind:
1) Jason B. will make smite worthwhile.2) I'm taking into consideration my (and many others as has been pointed out, I think by you in fact) two suggestions I proposed a few posts earlier that a paladin should smite evil 1/day +Cha mod or each smite should last a number of rounds = Cha mod.
The level dipping problem as I see it anyway, happens to be with the Cha bonus to hit. Any player, during character creation could construct a PC with a decent Charisma score and supplement it with magic, boosting it higher, and thus getting the ability of having either multiple attacks with a significant bonus to hit, or gain the same bonus for multiple rounds from one smite attempt. Even sorcerers could benefit if specializing in touch attack type spells.
Yes, I don't think there would be a problem with level dipping if the smite ability remains as is. But we're trying to make smiting better, and thus level dipping could be a problem, depending on how powerful it becomes at 1st level.
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Bottom of page 215 of the Beta. Rather confusingly, 2 pages before the Detect Evil spell appearsCan you quote the source for your interpretation of this, I can't find what you're talking about in the spell description.The only problem is that Pathfinder Detect Evil treats normal (no-undead, outsider, cleric) evil with less than 5 HD as not evil. So, do we want smite not working on standard goblins? I'd say yes as smite shouldn't be wasted on foot-soldiers, but YMMV.
Thanks. Wow just wow, so now paladins have a first level ability that won't even do anything until level 5. Meaning that they literally only get smite at first level. Because I can't think of a single DM who would let the players know the BBEG their meeting is a 5HD or more evil guy. So a paladin using smite is just a random f*ing guess now. I can't believe this. Today I have learned of two paladin nerfs made from the update to beta. First Channel energy a 4th level ability and now detect evil a first level ability. So basically the goal is to have no one play the paladin ever unless they really like feeling useless before level 5 and if they don't choose the weapon bond before level 10.
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Thanks. Wow just wow, so now paladins have a first level ability that won't even do anything until level 5. Meaning that they literally only get smite at first level. Because I can't think of a single DM who would let the players know the BBEG their meeting is a 5HD or more evil guy. So a paladin using smite is just a random f*ing guess now. I can't believe this. Today I have learned of two paladin nerfs made from the update to beta. First Channel energy a 4th level ability and now detect evil a first level ability. So basically the goal is to have no one play the paladin ever unless they really like feeling useless before level 5 and if they don't choose the weapon bond before level 10.Bottom of page 215 of the Beta. Rather confusingly, 2 pages before the Detect Evil spell appearsCan you quote the source for your interpretation of this, I can't find what you're talking about in the spell description.The only problem is that Pathfinder Detect Evil treats normal (no-undead, outsider, cleric) evil with less than 5 HD as not evil. So, do we want smite not working on standard goblins? I'd say yes as smite shouldn't be wasted on foot-soldiers, but YMMV.
That's for Detect Evil. There is no evidence that Smite Evil follows a similar pattern. If we allowed my changes, making low-level evil creatures still get the Faint level smiting might be a better option.
And Smite's, in my experience, rarely got used when there was doubt about the evil even without the long lead time with Detect. Goblin chieftains, Orc warleaders, clerics of evil gods, were far more likely targets because they could be fairly sure they were evil.
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Okay, you understand the problem with level dipping, can you explain it to me, because I am at a loss as to why someone would dip for the ability.
Smites are based on Paladin level and Charisma, in order to make dipping worthwile, you would need to have a decent smite.
I'll answer this with two assumptions in mind:
1) Jason B. will make smite worthwhile.
2) I'm taking into consideration my (and many others as has been pointed out, I think by you in fact) two suggestions I proposed a few posts earlier that a paladin should smite evil 1/day +Cha mod or each smite should last a number of rounds = Cha mod.The level dipping problem as I see it anyway, happens to be with the Cha bonus to hit. Any player, during character creation could construct a PC with a decent Charisma score and supplement it with magic, boosting it higher, and thus getting the ability of having either multiple attacks with a significant bonus to hit, or gain the same bonus for multiple rounds from one smite attempt. Even sorcerers could benefit if specializing in touch attack type spells.
Yes, I don't think there would be a problem with level dipping if the smite ability remains as is. But we're trying to make smiting better, and thus level dipping could be a problem, depending on how powerful it becomes at 1st level.
Well you know what they say about assumptions right ;). Yes I agree and have said on several threads that 1+cha is all dependant on what Jason does with the ability. But i don't know, the more I've learned the more fearful I get of late.
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I'll be honest with you, as a competent min/maxer I can't understand either of the arguments you are putting forth.
(well the second argument I do understand, but if we don't increase the # of smites in the day how does he smite for more than 7 rounds?)
He suggested that the bonuses from each smite would last a number of rounds equal to your CHA modifier, which would mean (assuming 20 CHA) 5 rounds for each smite at 1st level. And, as was also suggested, if you would get 1 smite + one smite per your CHA modifier, that would mean 30 rounds of bonuses for a 1st level paladin -- if that's not broken by your standards, consider how effective that will be at, say, 15th to 20th level. You'd effectively be enjoying the benefits of your smite evil ability *every* round in *every* encounter... (assuming that most fights last under five rounds at high levels).
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He suggested that the bonuses from each smite would last a number of rounds equal to your CHA modifier, which would mean (assuming 20 CHA) 5 rounds for each smite at 1st level. And, as was also suggested, if you would get 1 smite + one smite per your CHA modifier, that would mean 30 rounds of bonuses for a 1st level paladin -- if that's not broken by your standards, consider how effective that will be at, say, 15th to 20th level. You'd effectively be enjoying the benefits of your smite evil ability *every* round in *every* encounter... (assuming that most fights last under five rounds at high levels).I'll be honest with you, as a competent min/maxer I can't understand either of the arguments you are putting forth.
(well the second argument I do understand, but if we don't increase the # of smites in the day how does he smite for more than 7 rounds?)
Who's he? if your talking about the poster we both responded to i thought he was proposing them as an either/or, not both
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The reason I agree with these two and none of the others is that I have been doing some playtest with the paladins as well with all martial classes. I found out some statistical numbers that would suggest that the paladin's once per day smite is much better than a once a day Rage. The barbarians rage adds 10% to an attacks chance to hit for that barbarians combat. A paladin's smite can be anywhere from 5% to a 20% (Cha 12-18) increase to an attack in combat. I don't know a Paladin that would take a 11 or less charisma nor one that would have it under a 14 because of the save bonus he gains as well. Once more, even if the paladin uses the smite, he doesn't risk any harm to himself while the barbarian is suffering a -2 to his already low AC. So the paladin that uses a smite against an evil foe gains a tremendous bonus with no penality except once per day and a Barbarian gets that same bonus for a combat while hurting him even more. The trade off is nice if you look at it that way.
True to some degree. The barbs rage will eventually increase to 15% and then 20% with the greater rages. AND Smite affects only one attack with that 20% increase; whereas the rage usually lasts half or most of an entire combat, providing those bonses on multiple rounds and potentially multiple attacks in each round.
Robert
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Okay, you understand the problem with level dipping, can you explain it to me, because I am at a loss as to why someone would dip for the ability.
LastKnight - first I agree with you that more smites are needed. However, I do see the point others have made IF we keep the smites on the same mechanic and IF we increase the number of them at 1st level so dragstically.
Most potentially a cleric with a decent CHA score - needed for channeling, or a bard, could level dip, and from that point forward with a headband of charisma would essentially have about 6 smites a day at about +5 to hit. This is a significant boost - especially if SE was made to last all round.
Its not about the damage - its about the ability to hit.
My mechanic change that I proposed long ago was made with that in mind; to allow more uses of smite - but not to encourage a level dip.
And that was a flat bonus to hit - equal to half the paladin level (which means to level dip to even get a plus 2 to hit, they'd have to take four levels), and a damage amount equal to paladin level.
Someone mentioned this same mechanic in an earlier post on this thread - but it was the same suggestion I had. In this mechanic, the paladin's CHA is still important - though not in the attack modifier, but in the number of smites available.
Regardless I've moved on from worrying about the number of smites the character should have - as that seems to be not up to debate, and I'm more concerned in the non rest of the combat capability when not smiting.
And hopefully smite will become more powerful to boot.
Robert
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I rather like "gradual" progression, i.e. one smite/day for every 2 or 3 paladin levels you have, instead of getting 1 + CHA modifier X smites per day at 1st level.I was thinking the extra smites from Cha bonus would be in addition to the standard progression of extra smites as the Paladin increases in level.
I see the problem now with the possibility of level dipping. There is a simple solution to this... change the wording of the Smite evil description.
Instead of: She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level.
You write: She adds half her paladin level to her attack roll (minimum +1) and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level.
Also throw in a sentence stating that if the smite attempt is used against an evil target, and the attack roll misses, the attempt isn't lost, as I'm sure some people have suggested.
I like the bonuses to hit and damage as I've stated above as well. They are underwhelming by themselves as many have pointed out, but with the suggestion of smite effects listed in other threads, Smiting Evil can be very effective in unique and powerful ways that don't do direct damage (leave that to the other martial classes).
Perhaps one of us should consolidate all the smiting ideas into one thread. I'm finding myself posting different aspects about them in 3 different threads and it's hard to describe the power in any detail without derailing each individual thread.
Okay, you understand the problem with level dipping, can you explain it to me, because I am at a loss as to why someone would dip for the ability.
Smites are based on Paladin level and Charisma, in order to make dipping worthwile, you would need to have a decent smite. The only classes that have charisma as a primary stat are Sorcerer and Bard. We'll say they have a 20 charisma so they can have a somewhat decent dip. They dip and gain 6 smites, which provide...
First of all, *most* of the NPCs and monsters in a typical D&D adventure are, indeed, evil. Therefore, it’s pretty safe to say that you would get the bonuses in almost every encounter. I’m not sure how you can take one level of Fighter and gain Weapon Specialization – you need to take *FOUR* levels to qualify for that feat. So that would be four caster levels to sacrifice, instead of one or two.
Alright, let's assume that you would get smites/day according to your CHA modifier. As you noted, CHA 20 would give you +5 to hit when you smite. And considering that Jason will most likely extend the duration of the bonuses to one round, it's pretty appealing to dip into paladin, isn't it? I'd also happily dip into paladin with any LG fighters or clerics, because you don't need to max out your CHA -- even +1 or +2 to all attacks and +1 to damage for one round two or three times a day is a pretty good ability (not so great at higher levels, though). *AND* taking that second level in Paladin would grant you bonuses to ALL saves – which is often more important than attack or damage bonus.
There would be ways (i.e. builds) to abuse this – for example, you could build a pretty effective melee-oriented Bard/Paladin with high DEX and CHA, or, even better, an elven Cleric/Paladin/Champion of Corellon or Bard/Paladin/Bladesinger (FR version).
If the duration of the smite would be 1 round per your CHA modifier, it would be better to max out CHA than STR with a fighter -- you would effectively be able to get those nice bonuses for every combat round per day (again, assuming an average of four to five encounters per day -- each of which would usually last from three to five rounds). Of course, your damage bonus would be lower, and if your Power Attack, the difference to a high STR fighter is non-existent – nonetheless, it would give you a lot of tactical options, and really help against enemies with high AC.
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Who's he? if your talking about the poster we both responded to i thought he was proposing them as an either/or, not bothHe suggested that the bonuses from each smite would last a number of rounds equal to your CHA modifier, which would mean (assuming 20 CHA) 5 rounds for each smite at 1st level. And, as was also suggested, if you would get 1 smite + one smite per your CHA modifier, that would mean 30 rounds of bonuses for a 1st level paladin -- if that's not broken by your standards, consider how effective that will be at, say, 15th to 20th level. You'd effectively be enjoying the benefits of your smite evil ability *every* round in *every* encounter... (assuming that most fights last under five rounds at high levels).I'll be honest with you, as a competent min/maxer I can't understand either of the arguments you are putting forth.
(well the second argument I do understand, but if we don't increase the # of smites in the day how does he smite for more than 7 rounds?)
Yes, that's the guy, but in my opinion he doesn't clearly express whether he means that it's either/or or both.
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First of all, *most* of the NPCs and monsters in a typical D&D adventure are, indeed, evil. Therefore, it’s pretty safe to say that you would get the bonuses in almost every encounter. I’m not sure how you can take one level of Fighter and gain Weapon Specialization – you need to take *FOUR* levels to qualify for that feat. So that would be four caster levels to sacrifice, instead of one or two.
Alright, let's assume that you would get smites/day according to your CHA modifier. As you noted, CHA 20 would give you +5 to hit when you smite. And considering that Jason will most likely extend the duration of the bonuses to one round, it's pretty appealing to dip into paladin, isn't it? I'd also happily dip into paladin with any LG fighters or clerics, because you don't need to max out your CHA -- even +1 or +2 to all attacks and +1 to damage for one round two or three times a day is a pretty good ability (not so great at higher levels, though). *AND* taking that second level in Paladin would grant you bonuses to ALL saves – which is often more important than attack or damage bonus.
There would be ways (i.e. builds) to abuse this – for example, you could build a pretty effective melee-oriented Bard/Paladin with high DEX and CHA, or, even better, an elven Cleric/Paladin/Champion of Corellon or Bard/Paladin/Bladesinger (FR version).
If the duration of the smite would be 1 round per your CHA modifier, it would be better to max out CHA than STR with a fighter -- you would effectively be able to get those nice bonuses for every combat round per day (again, assuming an average of four to five encounters per day -- each of which would usually last from three to five rounds). Of course, your damage bonus would be lower, and if your Power Attack, the difference to a high STR fighter is non-existent – nonetheless, it would give you a lot of tactical options, and really help against enemies with high AC.
*slaps himself for faulty argument* Ok you got me on weapon spec, I wasn't actually looking at feats when I wrote and for some reason my brain said "hey weapon spec. has no prereqs just like weapon focus". But I can still use other feats to gain similar bonuses. And saying most of the enemies you fight, is really campaign dependant isn't it? I know in my game, almost everyone I've fought has been non-evil. Granted odds are in favor that the majority will be evil. But once again, a dip into paladin to get that +5 to hit on melee attacks still sacrifices a caster level for a bard, sorcerer, or cleric and I can do a lot worse with a caster level than with 5 smites. There's a reason the mantra of the char op boards was "though shalt not sacrifice caster levels" As for fighter's etc. I would much rather have that bonus feat and my armor or weapon mastery. In the end, the only classes I would really be willing to dip (and you can't use the level two argument because the dipping for divine grace is already an issue that people take two levels for, the only real thing to say is that adding more smites makes that first level dip a little less sucky to get that second level divine grace) would be barbarian, rogue, or ranger, and even then I can usually match if not beat the bonuses unless for some reason I have one of those with a 18-20 cha.
As a side note, I looked at those characters you put forth and they actually to me looked like interesting ones. Depends on how large the disparity is between the levels of their first base class and their paladin levels. Dipping to me is only a problem when your character looks like this Cleric 3/Paladin 2/Rogue 2/ flame of annoyance 2/ master douchebag 4. Now if he was Cleric 8/Paladin 2/ Champion of Correllion I might have some annoyance. But I think that build would probably have gone into the champion earlier and look like Cleric 4/Paladin 2/Champion X and to me that's just a multiclassed character YMMV.
Still I am willing to concede that for some who don't understand the ins and outs of the system those 1+cha smites can look pretty tempting.
Odds are though (at least I'm hoping) that smite gets such a major overhaul that it renders this argument moot because even I'll agree that 1+ cha smites would be rediculous. Granted that the paladin needs more than just smites to make his martial abilities on par with the other martial classes.
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[B]UPDATE ALERT: A REVISED VERSION OF THE BETA PALADIN HAS BEEN POSTED BY JASON ON THIS THREAD.
Check it out, and save yourselves debating changes that have already occurred!