Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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In the intro sticky, Jason B asked about how to make Smite Evil better while still keeping it as an N uses day ability. Many have said that entire premise is batty, that the problem is to make it NOT be an N uses per day ability. That may be true, but for the sake of discussion, how about a thread for what would make Smite Evil (and Smite Chaos, in my book) worthwhile as a power that had limited uses per day?
A few suggestions, of varying complexity:
1. Each use of SE aligns your weapon to law & good.
I think this is a no-brainer, an absolutely simple change, and useful. You smite evil, your weapon is [good] for beating DR. Smite chaos, it's lawful for beating DR. I think something like this is a must.
That said, I actually would suggest doing this slightly differently, and that is this:
When smiting evil, you ignore any form of DR possessed by an evil creature.
That way, when fighting evil, paladin > golf bag of weapons. The paladin needn't know or care what kind of DR the thing has, whether it's a pit fiend with DR/good and silver or a balor with DR/good and cold iron or a jelly donut-odaemon with DR/good or blueberry muffins, if it's evil, and the paladin is smiting, it's ALL gettin through!
2. SE should apply to ANY attack action you make.
Melee. Ranged. Unarmed. Natural weapon. Whatever. That SE would be limited to melee attacks is the height of silliness. This isn't 4th Ed, where paladins are "melee or bust." You can just as easily have a paladin/monk martial artist as a paladin/archer as a paladin/mounted as a paladin/SAB as any other style.
3. SE should apply to CMB rolls that aren't attacks (overrun, bull rush, grapple).
I can totally see this surge of holy power as buffing up your power and might to try to physically plow into some evil scourge. I could see it adding:
a. CHA bonus instead of STR bonus; or,
b. CHA bonus on top of STR bonus; or,
c. Paladin level on top of normal CMB check.
It might be worth explicitly stipulating (though it seems implied) that SE bonuses count when doing a trip, disarm, or sunder CMB attempt, since those are based off of attacks.
4. SE should be shared with the paladin's mount.
If you've got this divine bond, why not let Trigger the horse share it too?
5. Each use of SE lasts for one full round, rather than a single attack.
Simple. Not exactly a huge boost but avoids the fizzle when you roll a 1 on your one good attack, and it gets better at higher levels when you get more attacks (iterative and TWF/haste/speed/cleave/whirlwind/whatever).
6. Each use of SE lasts for a number of rounds equal to your CHA bonus.
If we went this route, we get better play out of the ability, as it lasts most of an encounter each time you use it. Simply using it as is, you get a double-dip on Charisma (rounds of duration, plus attack roll bonus). You could change the attack/damage bonus to something like the Knight of the Chalice's fiendslaying bonus vs. evil outsiders - to wit, +1 to hit, +1d6 damage at 1st level, and then every 4 or 5 levels it improves by +1/+1d6 (so at 20th level you'd be getting +5/5d6 or +6/6d6).
7. If you are really Really REALLY suck on using smite evil as N number of ATTACKS per day...
Then please Please PLEASE let the paladin invoke the smite AFTER the attack is resolved!!!!!!!! He gets so few a day, don't make him risk them on the roll of the frickin' die.
Thoughts and discussion?
I would refer you to my post on smite evil (+ lightbringer). I think you would agree with me on the changes and the addition of lightbringer (or Robert Brambleys version - Divine Might). This is where the real change can be made!
I like all of the ideas you listed here (minus the chaos part). Please keep it up, we need to "save" the paladin they have been done a grave injustice for to long! They need to be made correctly for once!
1. Each use of SE aligns your weapon to law & good.I think this is a no-brainer, an absolutely simple change, and useful. You smite evil, your weapon is [good] for beating DR. Smite chaos, it's lawful for beating DR. I think something like this is a must.
That said, I actually would suggest doing this slightly differently, and that is this:
When smiting evil, you ignore any form of DR possessed by an evil creature.
That way, when fighting evil, paladin > golf bag of weapons. The paladin needn't know or care what kind of DR the thing has, whether it's a pit fiend with DR/good and silver or a balor with DR/good and cold iron or a jelly donut-odaemon with DR/good or blueberry muffins, if it's evil, and the paladin is smiting, it's ALL gettin through!
Whilst I would prefer the current Smite Evil working on a per encounter mechanic rather than a per day, this I like.
Ignoring all DR would give the paladin something it severly lacks - a reason for evil creatures to fear it, above any other martial character with Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization boosts or equivalents.
Simple change, probably few or no background compatibility issues. I like it.
Chobbly
I'm not on board with everything you said, but the following things make sense to me:
1. Smite Evil shouldn't be expended if you miss, or even if you accidentally smite something not evil. If you really want to punish "smite happy" paladins, let them loose the smite with no effect if they smite a good opponent, but otherwise, why punish them for not connecting with the blow?
2. There is a feat in Complete Divine that grants a paladin 1d6 + their level and allows their blow to be considered good aligned when they smite. The feat isn't OGL, but making this the default paladin smite could be, especially since the World of Warcraft d20 Paladin gets the ability this way as well.
It doesn't do much to higher end smites, but at 1st level, when you end up using your smite more to give you the charisma bonus to attack rather than caring about the damage bonus.
Also, making a smite count as a good attack just makes sense, and I like the notion of a desperate paladin burning his smites to get in a few good solid blows on an evil foe with DR/good when they don't have a holy weapon available.
I've had paladins in my last two campaigns, and at least at low level, smite comes across as something to help them to hit, rather than being something that will devastate an enemy. On the other hand, my last paladin player did like the increased number of uses per day.
The houserule that we've come up with is to allow the smite (and similar cleric domain abilities like War) to last a flat 3 rounds. Basically, the "Smite" ability "charges" the weapon with holy energy which is released on the first successful attack. If no attack is successful during the 3 rounds, then the energy "dissipates".
Of course, we don't currently have a Paladin in the group....
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I like the idea of making the smite apply to all attacks made in a given round. This increases the value of the smite attempt by giving the paladin multiple chances to hit. Would this apply to things like cleave/great cleave/whirlwind attack, or just iterative attacks?
The other option I'd be in favour of would be incresing the frequency of smite to N+CHA bonus (if any). This change would be the easiest to add to the rules, IMO. I know it's outside of what Jason wants to do, but it would go a long way to fixing the class ability.
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6. Each use of SE lasts for a number of rounds equal to your CHA bonus.
I agree. While the paladin does serve a role as a "divine fighter", he also serves as the polar opposite of the barbarian. A mechanic for Smite that mirrors the Barbarian's Rage (as presented in option 2a) and Rage powers might be promising.
I am not a fan (or ever going to be a player!) of 4E, but one thing I thought they had right was the idea that MORE could be done withSmite than increased damage. I don't think that some Smite Powers would be too much, if scaled and balanced right.
I look at the Rage Powers now as almost "mini-feats"; specific for the class that would use them. In a way, the Rogue Talent mechanic works the best of all the new elements added to 3.5 through Pathfinder. More class specific "talents" or "Powers" seem the way to go, with "feats" being the generic, everyone can take them part of the game.
Just my two cents.
The following is a suggestion I made in another thread:
I think a possible improvement to Smite Evil could be a rule that a missed attack does not expend the ability. It stays active until the Paladin manages to hit an opponent (though if the opponent proves not to be evil, the ability is expended anyway).
1. Each use of SE aligns your weapon to law & good.
I think this is a no-brainer, an absolutely simple change, and useful. You smite evil, your weapon is [good] for beating DR. Smite chaos, it's lawful for beating DR. I think something like this is a must.
That said, I actually would suggest doing this slightly differently, and that is this:
When smiting evil, you ignore any form of DR possessed by an evil creature.
That way, when fighting evil, paladin > golf bag of weapons...
I could go along with this, but I really feel it is not needed. The Bless Weapon spell comes along early enough (and with Cha based spells Paladins will have plenty of spells) to handle DR/Good&Magic.
After that the new DR rules take care of silver/cold iron/alignment/adamantine with higher +'d weapons - which is somewhat classic for a Paladin to have (+5 Holy avenger anyone?).
2. SE should apply to ANY attack action you make.
Melee. Ranged. Unarmed. Natural weapon. Whatever.
Yes, certainly.
3. SE should apply to CMB rolls that aren't attacks (overrun, bull rush, grapple).
I can totally see this surge of holy power as buffing up your power and might to try to physically plow into some evil scourge. I could see it adding:
Okay, I may be missing something, but I think you need to read the CMB section again. When you perform a Combat Maneuver you make an "attack roll" for all of them, using your CMB bonus in place of other modifiers. So none of the CMB's are "attacks", but all use "attack rolls". Some indeed are "in place of attacks", but are still not attacks.
I wholeheartedly agree that you should be able to smite a combat maneuver. Add Charisma to the total, Level to any damage (Sunder and Grapple only I believe).
I am totally on board with "Smites ignore all DR of evil characters." That's just awesome, and powerful-but-not-overpowered. Especially if we remove the new way magic items ignore DR (which is really lame). That + the use not being used up if she misses would work wonderfully (she should still lose it if she smites someone nonevil, as punishment for attacking nondiscriminantly, so to speak).
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1. Each use of SE aligns your weapon to law & good.
Yes. It always seemed odd that smite evil didn't have this already.
That said, I actually would suggest doing this slightly differently, and that is this:
When smiting evil, you ignore any form of DR possessed by an evil creature.
That way, when fighting evil, paladin > golf bag of weapons.
Nah. No need to go overboard. The rules provide plenty of ways for paladins and other PCs to overcome DR. Paladins -- in fact, most PCs -- spend the bulk of their time fighting evil monsters, so this would come into play too often.
2. SE should apply to ANY attack action you make.
Melee. Ranged. Unarmed. Natural weapon. Whatever. That SE would be limited to melee attacks is the height of silliness. This isn't 4th Ed, where paladins are "melee or bust." You can just as easily have a paladin/monk martial artist as a paladin/archer as a paladin/mounted as a paladin/SAB as any other style.
Yes, yes, yes.
3. SE should apply to CMB rolls that aren't attacks (overrun, bull rush, grapple).
Nah. Again, no need to go overboard, and those CMB moves really aren't "smiting."
4. SE should be shared with the paladin's mount.
Meh. To "smite" strikes me as a conscious act carried out by a sentient creature who has the free will to elect good over evil.
5. Each use of SE lasts for one full round, rather than a single attack.
Yes.
6. Each use of SE lasts for a number of rounds equal to your CHA bonus.
Too much.
7. If you are really Really REALLY stuck on using smite evil as N number of ATTACKS per day...
Then please Please PLEASE let the paladin invoke the smite AFTER the attack is resolved!!!!!!!! He gets so few a day, don't make him risk them on the roll of the frickin' die.
Absolutely!
well a few ideals that have floated in my head.
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may imbue her blade with holy power and her blade counts as both lawful and good for over coming DR. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. Also this power deal an extra 1d6 points of damage per 4 levels to outsiders of the evil subtype. This power stays active a number of rounds equal to her charisma modifier +1. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect.
At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table 4–9, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.
let me know what you think.
I assume the reluctance to change # of times per day is for back compatibility with adventure stat blocks. From that POV it's easier to redefine "smite evil" as "Miracle!!!" than to change the number of times.
I agree with pretty much all of Jason Nelson's enhancements above. Smite Evil is the pally's main offensive signature ability. Don't look now, but there's a Holy Warrior cleric option in the Golarion Campaign Setting book that lets a cleric give up their two domains to get fighter BAB and d20 HD. With this, they become a better paladin than the paladin. Equal fightage and better spells, spells which can replicate any of the paladin's abilities.
To make the paladin shine where they should, buffing up smite evil into a really good ability is a must. It should be law and good aligned, should trigger after the hit so it can't be wasted, etc. It's so, so bad at low levels.
Take a third level paladin. They are fighting what are likely CR6 evil critters with their party. They get one smite a day. That one smite should be something that puts a demon in its fricking grave, not +4 to hit/+3 to damage with one attack in the whole day.
I'd say "law and good aligned, an automatic critical threat, add CHA to hit/pally level to damage, not used up if you miss." And that's a baseline.
Then, consider adding other specials - the capstone "Holy Champion" thing is very cool, perhaps have a gradation of effects going up -
L1-3 Bane (or some other level 1 debuff thing) on target, Will DC 11+CHA
L4-6 Doom (some level 2 debuff thing), Will DC 12+CHA
L7-9 Et cetera.
Keep the number of attempts per day.
The paladin should be able to "Hold the charge" in the event of a miss, as certain touch spells allow.
This avoids wasting smite attempts without upping the power level too much.
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First off, I agree with most of Jason N. ideas above.
1) Overcoming DR - absolutely.
2) Any kind of attack - I'm not 100% sure - but I'm not opposed either - more options is never a bad thing though, so what the heck!?!
3) SE apply to CMB checks; makes perfect sense!!! Definitely!!!
4) Share with mount - makes perfect sense. Why should it not?
5) Lasts 1 round (see below)
6) Last # rounds equal to Cha Mod (see below)
7) Not used on failed attempt (see below)
As for 5-7: I have two schools of thought on the smite - both allow me to swallow the infrequent number of them, and helps me live with the notion that Jason B is not keen on adding a bunch more of them.
A) My first thought that I am very much in love with is to use one use of smite evil to "challenge" a target. The paladin calls out a target like blood oath or a knight's challenge. For 1 round plus CHA mod, that creature is the target of his Smite Evil. which provides a myriad of bonuses; + CHA to attack rolls, + Pal level to damage, DR is overcome (as above), Cha mod attack bonus applies towards CMB checks (as above).
To me - this idea has fluff as well as mechanics. Its the paladin calling out to the devil at the head of the army, and challenging him from across the field. The paladin ignoring the mooks and making a heroic charge for the BBEG leading the enemy. At 10th level, a paladin can challenge 4 individual targets over the course of the day. 2 in the same encounter perhaps. The point is - in this arena, the Smite Evil is the equivalent of a barbarian's rage.
B) If the above is too much of a re-design and unloved, then my next option would just be to allow the smite to last a number of rounds equal to cha mod. Thus the 'missed attacks' arent' using up the only smite as it'll still last.
Regardless, I think choice A brings a whole new perspective that mirrors the redesign of the Rage mechanic for the barbarian, and am very passionate about it making both mechanical sense, and a good role-playing fluff mechanic that just exudes "paladin" IMO.
Also, regardless of what form the mechanics of Smite Evil take going forward - I was to re-emphasize the need for a bonus to attack rolls and damage against evil in general all the time - that helps the paladin out in their combat prowess since they're so far behind the curve all the time in comparison to the other classes as illustrated in this lengthy post I made here.
Furthermore, I have often thought about the idea of having Smite Talents that could be offered and added to the smite. I saw a comment soliciting such ideas in This thread..
Ideas that I've come up with are:
AC increase
Stunning Smite
Staggering Smite
Blinding Smite
Sundering Smite
Dispelling Smite (can break a magical protection of the enemy thats hit)
Healing Smite (a successful hit on a target heals the paladin one-half the damage dealt to the creature.)
Robert
Mr Nelson has, as usual, proposed a number of useful suggestions. Like many others here, I agree with a lot of them, and am uncertain about some:
1) Overcoming all evil DR - I'm 100% on board with the smite counting as good-aligned, and could probably be persuaded to make it penetrate DR/anything.
2) Any kind of attack - I see no huge issue here. Why not?
3) SE apply to CMB checks - Undecided. If so, it's not a "smite" anymore; it's a "divine kung-fu." Also, combat maneuvers are the fighter's and monk's schtick; I don't like the paladin muscling in too brazenly on their territory.
4) Share with mount - Is that only when you're mounted? Always? How does that work? I'm not sure I'm a fan of this one.
5) Lasts 1 round - OK, that's better than "lasts 1 blow."
6) Last # rounds equal to Cha Mod - I could go for that, too.
7) Not used on failed attempt - that's a no-brainer for me, unless it's lasting a number of rounds.
I also kind of like the damage bonus as a +1d6 holy damage per time per day you can use it (+2d6 when you can use it 2/day, etc.), rather than a flat +1/level of weapon damage. It just fits better, thematically, with holy weapons, outsider bane weapons, greater psionic strike, etc.
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Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may imbue her blade with holy power and her blade counts as both lawful and good for over coming DR. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. Also this power deal an extra 1d6 points of damage per 4 levels to outsiders of the evil subtype. This power stays active a number of rounds equal to her charisma modifier +1. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect.
At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table 4–9, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.let me know what you think.
Oooooo! I like! I would change the extra +1d6 damage on the smite to ANY creature with the evil subtype (it is Smite Evil, after all). And define the smite evil effect as a free action.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Hmm... "dispelling smite" you say...
This is something that I think is absolutely needful for the paladin, and is very thematic. For that matter, this is not far off from a concept I remember discussing in the Ftr/Rgr/Brb section:
All martial classes should have some kind of recourse against being auto-defeated by a force field hamster ball (resilient sphere, forcecage, wall of force up against a corner/wall, or trying to break INTO a forbiddance, repulsion, antilife shell or the like).
For a fighter, it would be a devastating slice with a magical weapon enabling them to cleave through a force field.
For a barbarian, a ludicrous feat of strength enabling them to smash through a force field like the Hulk.
For a paladin, the smite is the perfect place for this to be. Perhaps as a feat, perhaps as an inherent class ability, something like the following:
I included the last sentence as a caveat to allow the dispelling-smite paladin to still bust a move on targets using displacement, mirror image, blink and that sort of stuff.
As for breaking down magical barriers...
You could limit this to once per smite (if we are doing smites as lasting several rounds), but making it a standard action is its own limiter, as actions are the real currency at higher levels, but because you can do it as part of your normal smite (not instead of), you still get some economy of actions and it's worth kicking your iterative attacks for a chance at a good debuff on the target.
P.S. One you might want to add is "ghost smite" - allowing paladins to smite incorporeals with no miss chance.
Definitely agree with a lot of what's been proposed here, such as the need for it to last longer than a single attack.
Here's what I've been using as a houserule in one of my games:
Smite Evil (Su): A paladin may channel the power of her deity to become the bane of evil foes. Starting at 1st level, a paladin can use smite evil for a number of rounds per day equal to her Charisma modifier.
At each level after 1st, she can use smite evil for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Charisma do not increase the total number of rounds that a paladin can smite evil per day. Using smite evil is a free action.
While using smite evil, a paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to attack rolls and half her paladin level to damage when attacking evil foes. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect.
Nicked a bit off of the alt barbarian rage system (rounds per day, usable as needed) and lowered the total bonus to damage to keep it from becoming too ghastly at higher levels. My only worry was that it mirrors barbarian rage a bit too closely. Converting it back into uses per day, but having each use last a number of rounds or attacks might be a decent alternative. Something more like...
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may channel the power of her deity to become the bane of evil foes. At 5th level, and every five levels thereafter a paladin gains an additional use of smite evil each day (2/day at 5th, 3/day at 10th, etc.) Activating smite evil is a free action, and smite evil remains active for a number of rounds equal to the paladin's charisma modifier.
While smite evil is active, a paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to attack rolls and half her paladin level to damage when attacking evil
foes. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite immediately ends.
This also has the nice side effect of opening up some design space for interesting Paladin abilities and feats that let you spend the remaining duration of your Smite for some effect, maybe something like...
Fervent Strike
Prerequisites: Smite Evil, BAB +8
Benefit: While using Smite Evil, you may drive the wits from evil foes. As a standard action, make a single attack against an evil foe at your highest attack bonus, including any bonuses from Smite Evil. If your attack is successful, the foe must make a Will save (DC 10 + the damage dealt) or be struck witless (as the spell feeblemind) for one day. Using Fervent Strike, successfully or otherwise, immediately ends Smite Evil.
Not in any way proposing that feat as particularly well thought out or balanced, just pointing out the interesting possibilities inherent in making Smite Evil a number of rounds as opposed to a single attack, which dovetails nicely into some of the ideas people have mentioned here, like Dispelling Smite.
All martial classes should have some kind of recourse against being auto-defeated by a force field hamster ball (resilient sphere, forcecage, wall of force up against a corner/wall, or trying to break INTO a forbiddance, repulsion, antilife shell or the like).
Yes, yes, and yes again! Dispelling smite is a must-have. Remember in 1e, when you finally got a holy avenger, you projected a continuous dispel magic as an aura? THAT would be a cool capstone power for the paladin as well, if it affected only non-allies.
A barbarian rage ability doing the same thing as the dispelling smite would be a nice addition (but I'd make the barbarian's fury interefere with the delicate structure of the spell, rather than have the barbarian turn into the Incredible Hulk -- just a personal preference as far as flavor text, and one that explains how the barbarian can cleave through a displacement spell). A fighter-only feat doing, again, the same thing, is absolutely essential to the long-term future of that class.
Oooooo! I like! I would change the extra +1d6 damage on the smite to ANY creature with the evil subtype (it is Smite Evil, after all). And define the smite evil effect as a free action.Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may imbue her blade with holy power and her blade counts as both lawful and good for over coming DR. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. Also this power deal an extra 1d6 points of damage per 4 levels to outsiders of the evil subtype. This power stays active a number of rounds equal to her charisma modifier +1. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect.
At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table 4–9, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.let me know what you think.
...just adopted this rule.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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All martial classes should have some kind of recourse against being auto-defeated by a force field hamster ball (resilient sphere, forcecage, wall of force up against a corner/wall, or trying to break INTO a forbiddance, repulsion, antilife shell or the like).Yes, yes, and yes again! Dispelling smite is a must-have. Remember in 1e, when you finally got a holy avenger, you projected a continuous dispel magic as an aura? THAT would be a cool capstone power for the paladin as well, if it affected only non-allies.
A barbarian rage ability doing the same thing as the dispelling smite would be a nice addition (but I'd make the barbarian's fury interefere with the delicate structure of the spell, rather than have the barbarian turn into the Incredible Hulk -- just a personal preference as far as flavor text, and one that explains how the barbarian can cleave through a displacement spell). A fighter-only feat doing, again, the same thing, is absolutely essential to the long-term future of that class.
My only problem is that I can't quite think of a good flavorrific version of that same power for the ranger. What would be their fluff-excuse for being able to break the unbreakable?
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All martial classes should have some kind of recourse against being auto-defeated by a force field hamster ball (resilient sphere, forcecage, wall of force up against a corner/wall, or trying to break INTO a forbiddance, repulsion, antilife shell or the like).Yes, yes, and yes again! Dispelling smite is a must-have. Remember in 1e, when you finally got a holy avenger, you projected a continuous dispel magic as an aura? THAT would be a cool capstone power for the paladin as well, if it affected only non-allies.
Oooh, you just touched on something I hadn't even considered! When I first suggested a dispelling strike use for Smite Evil, I had totally forgotten that ability with the Holy Avenger in earlier editions. Thats when paladins were bad-ass and worth their terrible xp progression!!!
Robert
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My initial suggestions and intent were not so much an arbitrary class feature, but one of many talents that the smite evil can emulate - either its a given arbitrary ability the smite evil picks up the ability to do at a given level, or there are a list of say a dozen that the player can choose from while advancing - adding them to the list of things he can perform with his smite evil!
Robert
Oooooo! I like! I would change the extra +1d6 damage on the smite to ANY creature with the evil subtype (it is Smite Evil, after all). And define the smite evil effect as a free action.Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may imbue her blade with holy power and her blade counts as both lawful and good for over coming DR. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. Also this power deal an extra 1d6 points of damage per 4 levels to outsiders of the evil subtype. This power stays active a number of rounds equal to her charisma modifier +1. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect.
At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table 4–9, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.let me know what you think.
humm that is a better ideal. glad ya liked your changed would work very well with it and improve upon it as well
In the intro sticky, Jason B asked about how to make Smite Evil better while still keeping it as an N uses day ability. Many have said that entire premise is batty, that the problem is to make it NOT be an N uses per day ability. That may be true, but for the sake of discussion, how about a thread for what would make Smite Evil (and Smite Chaos, in my book) worthwhile as a power that had limited uses per day?
A few suggestions, of varying complexity:
1. Each use of SE aligns your weapon to law & good.
I think this is a no-brainer, an absolutely simple change, and useful. You smite evil, your weapon is [good] for beating DR. Smite chaos, it's lawful for beating DR. I think something like this is a must.
That said, I actually would suggest doing this slightly differently, and that is this:
When smiting evil, you ignore any form of DR possessed by an evil creature.
That way, when fighting evil, paladin > golf bag of weapons. The paladin needn't know or care what kind of DR the thing has, whether it's a pit fiend with DR/good and silver or a balor with DR/good and cold iron or a jelly donut-odaemon with DR/good or blueberry muffins, if it's evil, and the paladin is smiting, it's ALL gettin through!
2. SE should apply to ANY attack action you make.
Melee. Ranged. Unarmed. Natural weapon. Whatever. That SE would be limited to melee attacks is the height of silliness. This isn't 4th Ed, where paladins are "melee or bust." You can just as easily have a paladin/monk martial artist as a paladin/archer as a paladin/mounted as a paladin/SAB as any other style.
3. SE should apply to CMB rolls that aren't attacks (overrun, bull rush, grapple).
I can totally see this surge of holy power as buffing up your power and might to try to physically plow into some evil scourge. I could see it adding:
a. CHA bonus instead of STR bonus; or,
b. CHA bonus on top of STR bonus; or,
c. Paladin level on top of normal CMB check.It might be worth...
Agreed on all counts.
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I'm all behind your first 5 points. I think they all address a number of issues with Smite and make it much more (1)logical and (2)effective in fulfilling his role.
However, I don't agree with your last two points. It seems like a bit much. I would say that instead of having Smite last a number of rounds equal to the CHA modifer, change the text to something akin to the following:
"Smite Evil lasts for one round plus one round per every five levels of Paladin. If you succeed on a Smite Evil attempt, the effect ends at the end of the round."
This way the longevity scales a little bit (which may or may not be needed), but you don't lose the attempt due to a bad roll.
At the moment, the PHB limits Smite Evil to one normal melee attack, a 'holy blow' if you will. From a visualisation point of view, I struggle to see smite (which as a word has a physical inference anyway) working as a ranged attack. Any type of unarmed, melee or natural attack, totally, ranged attacks, less so.
On another score, how would the various Smite related feats from other sources be affected by Smite Evil having a duration? Feats like Silver Smite (from the Eberron Campaign Setting) that give damage boosts would be even more useful if the Smite had a duration, perhaps too much? If I was a paladin in Eberron, there'd be no point playing a Sovereign Host deity paladin because Silver Smite would just be too good to pass up.
One idea, linked to what Lord Aerthos Pendragon said just, is to break apart the Smite Evil attack bonus and the damage slightly. When declared (as a free/immediate action) the attack bonus from Smite Evil is applied to every attack until the paladin actually hits. When the attack hits, all Smite Evil affects are applied. The attack bonus then ends.
This gets around loss of the Smite Evil attempt if the attack fails - the attack bonus stays active until the paladin's blow connects and then the righteous fury of the smite is delivered.
If an attack is made against a non-evil foe, or the combat encounter finishes, then the Smite Evil attempt immediately ends without any effect and the attempt is considered spent.
Chobbly
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At the moment, the PHB limits Smite Evil to one normal melee attack, a 'holy blow' if you will. From a visualisation point of view, I struggle to see smite (which as a word has a physical inference anyway) working as a ranged attack. Any type of unarmed, melee or natural attack, totally, ranged attacks, less so.
One of the three LG Golarion deities is Erastil, whose favored weapon is a longbow. You don't think that paladins of Erastil should be able to smite with their god's favored weapon?
EDIT: And the LN god Abadar also produces a lot of paladins; his favored weapon is the crossbow.
Not a fan of ranged smite. I'm not saying that its against a paladin's code or anything to use a ranged weapon, just that smite evil seems like a very up close and personal thing to do.
Also, while it might make a nice feat or alternate class ability for gods that have ranged weapons as their favored weapons, I don't think this should be the default for all paladins, or that it should be the baseline.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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At the moment, the PHB limits Smite Evil to one normal melee attack, a 'holy blow' if you will. From a visualisation point of view, I struggle to see smite (which as a word has a physical inference anyway) working as a ranged attack. Any type of unarmed, melee or natural attack, totally, ranged attacks, less so.
On another score, how would the various Smite related feats from other sources be affected by Smite Evil having a duration? Feats like Silver Smite (from the Eberron Campaign Setting) that give damage boosts would be even more useful if the Smite had a duration, perhaps too much? If I was a paladin in Eberron, there'd be no point playing a Sovereign Host deity paladin because Silver Smite would just be too good to pass up.
One idea, linked to what Lord Aerthos Pendragon said just, is to break apart the Smite Evil attack bonus and the damage slightly. When declared (as a free/immediate action) the attack bonus from Smite Evil is applied to every attack until the paladin actually hits. When the attack hits, all Smite Evil affects are applied. The attack bonus then ends.
This gets around loss of the Smite Evil attempt if the attack fails - the attack bonus stays active until the paladin's blow connects and then the righteous fury of the smite is delivered.
If an attack is made against a non-evil foe, or the combat encounter finishes, then the Smite Evil attempt immediately ends without any effect and the attempt is considered spent.
Chobbly
My take is that the SE benefits are not so ridiculously awesome that it would kill or break anything to have them apply to multiple attacks.
A barbarian's rage (pretty much), a fighter's combat weapon feats and weapon training, and a ranger's favored enemy are on all the time, for every attack they make. I'm not going to sit here and try to work up an actuarial damage expectancy model, one cuz I'm at work and two because that ain't my style, but if we take a 10th level ranger with, say, even a +4 FavEn vs. Evil outsiders, he could be doing up to 16-20 bonus damage EVERY ROUND with TWF/Rapid Shot, where our Paladin can do +10 damage per attack for 3 attacks and then he is done for the DAY. Not just for that encounter, but for the rest of the adventuring day. The party meets more EvO's in the next combat, the ranger is still going, the fighter is still going, the barbarian probably has plenty of rage left. The paladin... well, he still has good saves...
Now, it's abundantly clear that smite evil is better for the one specific attack it affects than any of those three abilities. Nice bonus to hit and to damage.
The problem is, it's only a little bit better, not insanely better, and a marginal increase in power should not go along with a quantum decrease in usefulness. The difference between a couple of individual attacks per day and every attack all the time is HUGE. The difference in power between smite evil and rage/feats+weapon training/FavEn+combat style is not.
That said, I like your idea as a partial measure. I don't think it goes farenough, but I think it is definitely an improvement over the current PF smite, as it's not wasted on a miss and you keep getting the bonus to hit until you succeed. It also makes it an interesting synergy with Power Attack or Combat Expertise, because you can stack on negative modifiers in exchange for a benefit once you finally do hit, making that one a whopper when it finally connects.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Not a fan of ranged smite. I'm not saying that its against a paladin's code or anything to use a ranged weapon, just that smite evil seems like a very up close and personal thing to do.
Also, while it might make a nice feat or alternate class ability for gods that have ranged weapons as their favored weapons, I don't think this should be the default for all paladins, or that it should be the baseline.
It's funny, but this was actually one of my biggest annoyances about the 4th Ed paladin (and fighter, and warlord) - that they were assumed to be melee-only characters. They were pretty much incompletent at ranged stuff.
I understand the iconic paladin model is heavy armor plus mounted lance or sword and board, but I've seen all kinds of paladin builds and never really thought there is anything inherent in the class that does (or should) limit it to being a melee class.
I also don't see any thematic difference between charging up your sword with holy power like the Power of Greyskull or charging up your arrow with holy fire and loosing a bolt of evil-smiting destruction upon the wicked.
Everybody's got a different notion of paladins though, so we can each put in our two coppers on the subject.
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1. I actually love the idea of bypassing any DR (including DR/-) better than an alligned weapon. I'll take an alligned weapon, but I think that as a once per day ability it should be impressive, and I think a creature thinking "what do I have to fear from you puny creatures" suddenly getting smacked by the righteous guy is very dramatic.
2. Agreed
3. Eh, this is unnesescary to me, I'm not for or against it.
4. Um, don't really see it sorry, on the other hand Jason was talking about improvements to mounts and someone suggested that they get the celestial template early on that would give them their own smites, but is OT for this thread.
5. Oh I absolutely agree, in fact in my variant smite lasts until the start of your next turn so that it also includes AoOs, but since I don't want them going crazy with it I also pushed that if you smite a non-evil creature you actually loose your smites for the day.
6. Sorry, I'm opposed to any extended durations for smite evil past 1 round.
7. No, rather instead simply state in writing in the description that this ability is not wasted on a miss. He allready removed the line saying it was used up on a miss, so I think it was his intention, however since he didn't specifically spell it out, it's left to DM's discretion as it stands.
And for my ideas
8. Smite deals level x2 damage
Level x1 damage is negligible at low levels, and a drop in the bucket at higher levels. I would like to note that I am willing to keep damage = level if it lasts the whole round, but still think level x2 feels more like a smite.
9. Start the game with 1+cha mod per day smites.
This is only if the DR breaking ability isn't added. Because as it stands basing it off level means it isn't useful enough for a multiclasser who would only get a +1 boost to damage and the to hit boost is still easily beaten by good feat choice. But if the ignore DR ability is added then it would be too good and you'd see tons of PCs with two levels of Paladin.
At the moment, the PHB limits Smite Evil to one normal melee attack, a 'holy blow' if you will. From a visualisation point of view, I struggle to see smite (which as a word has a physical inference anyway) working as a ranged attack. Any type of unarmed, melee or natural attack, totally, ranged attacks, less so.One of the three LG Golarion deities is Erastil, whose favored weapon is a longbow. You don't think that paladins of Erastil should be able to smite with their god's favored weapon?
EDIT: And the LN god Abadar also produces a lot of paladins; his favored weapon is the crossbow.
And the Church of Silver Flame from the Eberron Campaign Setting, their favoured weapon is the longbow. Smite is a melee attack only in the PHB, and I have always felt that Smite is best represented as a a form of direct, physical and close-up attack, as I mentioned before. You could argue that the concept of favoured weapons applies more to clerics anyway, but that's probably a discussion for somewhere else.
I have worries that opening smite up to ranged attacks could give rise to the paladin/ranger uber-bowman, especially if Smites have a duration and ranged feats are tricked out on (like from Complete Warrior). But, that said, even if a ranged smite attack is added it's not exactly going to stop me running Pathfinder. Everyone's got different opinions and preferences, but at the end of the day it's up to Paizo.
Chobbly
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And the Church of Silver Flame from the Eberron Campaign Setting, their favoured weapon is the longbow. Smite is a melee attack only in the PHB, and I have always felt that Smite is best represented as a a form of direct, physical and close-up attack, as I mentioned before. You could argue that the concept of favoured weapons applies more to clerics anyway, but that's probably a discussion for somewhere else.
Actually, it's not, thanks to the divine bond ability. Paladin-archers can already exist, once they get the ability to start adding plusses to their longbows and crossbows at 5th level. My point is that a paladin of a god with a favored ranged weapon makes no sense, because they can't smite with the weapon that they can summon a celestial spirit into. That's a level of cognitive dissonance I'm not willing to accept in my gaming.
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And the Church of Silver Flame from the Eberron Campaign Setting, their favoured weapon is the longbow. Smite is a melee attack only in the PHB, and I have always felt that Smite is best represented as a a form of direct, physical and close-up attack, as I mentioned before. You could argue that the concept of favoured weapons applies more to clerics anyway, but that's probably a discussion for somewhere else.
Chobbly
One could argue that, but then i'd point out the fact that the bonded weapon ability of the paladin indicates its with their god's chosen weapon. With two of the main Golarian paladin gods with ranged weapons, it doesn't seem fair that they can only get their bonded weapon with the bow, but can only smite with a melee weapon that they cannot bond.
I too would be worried about the ranger/paladin uber bowman as you pointed out.
I suggest and I hope that the "only with god's favored weapon" be removed from the bonded part to give a little diversity and flavor since most of those aren't that great for the LG gods, and then continue to restrict smite to melee weapons.
Robert
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4. SE should be shared with the paladin's mount.
Meh. To "smite" strikes me as a conscious act carried out by a sentient creature who has the free will to elect good over evil.
Isn't the paladin's mount exactly such a creature?
It's not 'just some horse', but a celestial, planeshifting magical horse, with a human-like Intelligence score.In fact, given the paladin's multiple-attribute-dependency, INT is their last priority, so the mount could well end up more intelligent than the rider (yes, Malakai, I am looking at you...)!
I would be for adding greater dispel magic to every smite attack with a caster level equal to the paladin's level, but only the targeted version and only on a successful hit. However, I think the smite should be held if you miss, so that a miss isn't wasting the ability.
Instead of increasing the paladin's number of smites per day, what about adding a feat that allows you 2 additional smite attempts per day?
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If anyone believes granting the ability to overcome all DR at 1st-level is too much, would they settle for regular improvements, a la the 3.5 Monk ki strike (ie, counts as good at level 1, lawful at level 3, silver at level 6, cold iron at level 9, adamantine at level 12, etc)?
Maybe even allowing them to breach DR/Epic a few levels earlier than normal?
Thing is, it's not the paladin doing this, they're channeling a deity, who is a (LawfulGoodEpicSilverColdIronAdamantineWhatever) CR?!? outsider, if only for a few seconds.
Maybe that's as long as the human body can withstand the power? If so, it would justify why higher-CHA paladins can burn brighter and longer?
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I would be for adding greater dispel magic to every smite attack with a caster level equal to the paladin's level, but only the targeted version and only on a successful hit. However, I think the smite should be held if you miss, so that a miss isn't wasting the ability.
Instead of increasing the paladin's number of smites per day, what about adding a feat that allows you 2 additional smite attempts per day?
Because smite evil is the only ability you can actively use in combat until 4th level, and is the only offensive ability you get till 5th level (unless fighting undead then drop it back to 4th).
So having one smite till 4th level makes the pally now the only class that pushes for the 5-minute work day. Think about it, under current pathfinder rules every other class has abilities that keep going after the first fight, Do you really want to have the wizard saying hey lets keep going, and the paladin be the one to say, no we need to stop and rest or I'll be of no use to you? Does that somehow feel more paladiny, or should the paladin be all about sacrific, "it's okay that I have no abilities to use, I'll just soldier on anyways" maybe that works for roleplaying, but it sucks balls for the player.
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It's funny, but this was actually one of my biggest annoyances about the 4th Ed paladin (and fighter, and warlord) - that they were assumed to be melee-only characters. They were pretty much incompletent at ranged stuff.
Was this a deliberate attempt to coin a new adjective?
"incompletent (adj.): 'At once, both incomplete and incompetent'. Used to describe the signature ability of the paladin class in the Third iteration of the popular 'Dungeons and Dragons' role-playing game."
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...regardless of what form the mechanics of Smite Evil take going forward - I was to re-emphasize the need for a bonus to attack rolls and damage against evil in general all the time...
How about giving the paladin Favoured Enemy (Evil Outsiders)?
It fits the theme, it does the job of making them more effective against their natural enemies all the time, it compensates them for their low skill points by making them more able to identify their foes' powers, and less likely to be tricked, and as the cherry on the top, it opens up a whole bunch of (OGL or non-OGL) Feats and Prestige Classes that grant extra options to affect such an enemy.
Am I right in thinking the restriction on multi-classing has been lifted? That a paladin can take another class, and then return to resume more levels in paladin? The relevant restrictive text is no longer in the Beta, but I can imagine some players/DMs assuming the old 3.5 rule still applied. Can this be explicitly confirmed?
If the paladin can freely multi-class, then the idea of a Paladin/Ranger 'Holy Spawnslayer' looks intriguing.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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At the moment, the PHB limits Smite Evil to one normal melee attack, a 'holy blow' if you will. From a visualisation point of view, I struggle to see smite (which as a word has a physical inference anyway) working as a ranged attack. Any type of unarmed, melee or natural attack, totally, ranged attacks, less so.One of the three LG Golarion deities is Erastil, whose favored weapon is a longbow. You don't think that paladins of Erastil should be able to smite with their god's favored weapon?
EDIT: And the LN god Abadar also produces a lot of paladins; his favored weapon is the crossbow.
And the Church of Silver Flame from the Eberron Campaign Setting, their favoured weapon is the longbow. Smite is a melee attack only in the PHB, and I have always felt that Smite is best represented as a a form of direct, physical and close-up attack, as I mentioned before. You could argue that the concept of favoured weapons applies more to clerics anyway, but that's probably a discussion for somewhere else.
I have worries that opening smite up to ranged attacks could give rise to the paladin/ranger uber-bowman, especially if Smites have a duration and ranged feats are tricked out on (like from Complete Warrior). But, that said, even if a ranged smite attack is added it's not exactly going to stop me running Pathfinder. Everyone's got different opinions and preferences, but at the end of the day it's up to Paizo.
Chobbly
Is a paladin/ranger uber-bowman really a bad thing?
Heck, is a paladin/fighter uber-bowman, or just a straight paladin bowman a bad thing?
Bows were uber-weapons in 1st Ed and 2nd Ed because you got more attacks than anyone else did, specialization had a stacking effect that made bows super-awesome.
In 3rd Ed, they work just the same as everything else, so the fact that 90+% of the damage-boosting feats and abilities are either melee-only or (to a lesser extent) melee-ranged equally means that the only people currently doing substantial damage with bows are rogues with sneak attack and greater invisibility or vs. flat-footed targets. Other builds can plink away with a lot of attacks, but unless you are up against a target in your wheelhouse with a holy axiomatic evil outsider bane bow nailing demons, then you are pretty much pissing in the wind damage-wise.
I for one would actually welcome the ability for other models of ranged martial attackers to be uber-bowmen!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I would be for adding greater dispel magic to every smite attack with a caster level equal to the paladin's level, but only the targeted version and only on a successful hit. However, I think the smite should be held if you miss, so that a miss isn't wasting the ability.
I wouldn't be averse to this. My concern still would be with the tricked-out wizard with his mirror images and displacements and what-not, but as long as you hold the charge on the smite, you could afford to take a couple of whacks to get him.
Instead of increasing the paladin's number of smites per day, what about adding a feat that allows you 2 additional smite attempts per day?
Isn't there already an "Extra Smiting" feat that does this?
Maybe that was in Complete Divine or something.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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It's funny, but this was actually one of my biggest annoyances about the 4th Ed paladin (and fighter, and warlord) - that they were assumed to be melee-only characters. They were pretty much incompletent at ranged stuff.Was this a deliberate attempt to coin a new adjective?
"incompletent (adj.): 'At once, both incomplete and incompetent'. Used to describe the signature ability of the paladin class in the Third iteration of the popular 'Dungeons and Dragons' role-playing game."
I heartily approve of said product and/or service!
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Hello everyone,
Although I am still considering options for increasing the power of smite evil, the duration is likely to change to at least 1 round, making it useful on all your attacks instead of just one. Although I can see the usefulness of "holding the charge", I think an expanded duration is more valuable and allows you to get more use out of the ability.
Hey guys just spreading the good word and giving us a framework to build from.