Yesterday I mad and play tested a 1st level human barbarian. I had a +1 bonus to hit points for favorite class, which makes no sense at all and is too powerful of a bonus, and the +6 starting hit points for the optional rule.
Rage Points!
I like the system, however the recovery time is WAY WAY WAAAYY too long as if you use one of the powers and you come to a false end to a fight your probably completely out of a fight any way.
A normal fight, unless some more are hidden like in our games case, only lasts 3-6 rounds.
We had defeated all the apparent villians in the first 3 rounds. Having to care to a captured and beet up niece, I went out of rage. I had to wait 6 rounds completely out of combat because I wouldn't dare to fight the next guy fatigued. I was basally out of combat for the rest of the battle. I can only imagine how things would go if I had used even a simple low cost rage power. Being able to go out of rage in the middle of combat is great, but the recover time needs to be reduced to even be viable and not using the old system unless it is some epically long battle where you have at least 2 other melee types in a party.
Suggestions:
Reduce the recovery to only actual points used for rage, not the rage powers, and make it 1:1 rounds recover:rounds in rage.
Alternatively:
Give them the ability to use a full round action to reduce they need to recover from the fatigue.
More will come later.
You thought that a +1 bonus to hit points for favoured class was too powerful, yet you still plumped for the six extra hp at 1st-level?
You thought that a +1 bonus to hit points for favoured class was too powerful, yet you still plumped for the six extra hp at 1st-level?
The +6 hp was a term my GM was playing by, not my suggestion or choice. Even if it was my choice about the +1 hp and +1 rank, it is the same as a person seeing two feats. One grants +1 to hit with a said weapon, other feat at the same cost and requirement but grants +1 hit and +1 damage, which do you think a person is going to chose if both are 100% legal and cannon?
Also note that the +1 hp also seems unsound, because if a job is easier for you, then you become better skilled at it, not become tougher in it. You become tougher after you have been in it over time, not innate.
P.S. I am using the +1 HP to gauge and test how broken it really is/isn't.
You mean "canonical". The canon is the appointed text and what is read from it is canonical.
Anyway, if you think it makes them more skilled and directly tougher, simply take the extra skill points and not the hit points.
You mean "canonical". The canon is the appointed text and what is read from it is canonical.
Anyway, if you think it makes them more skilled and directly tougher, simply take the extra skill points and not the hit points.
You seem to miss the point, this is a play test. I have my opinions, and I want prove it, or disprove it. I can not do this with out trying.
P.S. This is also the same reason I am taking power attack even though I think it has become next to useless once you start losing full power attack due to your strength bonus not keeping up with you base attack
...How would taking the bonus skill point option not be playtesting the Beta rules?
For that matter, if you can't fathom players becoming "tougher" when increasing their skill at their "job",
how do you explain normal hit point advancement?
Anyhow, good for you for playtesting Power Attack is...
Real playtest feed-back on it's current state is the strongest evidence Jason can have to change it.
...How would taking the bonus skill point option not be playtesting the Beta rules?
For that matter, if you can't fathom players becoming "tougher" when increasing their skill at their "job",
how do you explain normal hit point advancement?Anyhow, good for you for playtesting Power Attack is...
Real playtest feed-back on it's current state is the strongest evidence Jason can have to change it.
Well if the job becomes more natually to them, AI it is easier why would an elf with a con minus get a bonus hit point for being a wizard when in all logic if the job was easier they would get like a bonus spell or skill point. I just can't get past that. I think a HP is too valuable when compared to a skill point, while one is near vital the other is nice to have. Unless I was playing a skill monkey, like a rogue, I would always get the +1 hp.
As for power attack, I am playing the class least effected by the nerfing. I would be more interested in someone playing a power attack character such as a fighter, paladin, or ranger as they all have full base attack bonus. Now that I am thinking about it, so long as you have a high enough strength anyone can power attack for about the same amount due to the nerfing with the exception of a barbarian.
18 str start, +5 level, +6 item, +5 book = 34 so that brings you to 34, 35 if they get a +2 to strength from race. That is a mere 2-3 point of damage difference than a caster with an insane strength.
Yeah, that's the thing about the current Power Attack,
it works best for those characters WITHOUT the uber-STR & uber-BAB...
Anyway, I just comment on the Favored Class, because I'm inclined to use it the exact opposite: For low skill point, low int characters, taking the Skill Point option increases their Skill Ranks by 50% (say), whereas, they already have high HPs. An extra skill is GREAT for Fighters. A moderate INT Rogue getting 10 Ranks/ Level only gains 10% benefit from an additional skill point.
As for your example of the mage: If a class "comes naturally" to a character, wouldn't that mean they can apply their energies in other departments without interfering with their class abilities? So, they can choose a Skill to practice, or they practice Calisthenics and Sparring with their Fighter buddy, to increase their "HPs"... Make any more sense? :-)
Yeah, that's the thing about the current Power Attack,
it works best for those characters WITHOUT the uber-STR & uber-BAB...Anyway, I just comment on the Favored Class, because I'm inclined to use it the exact opposite: For low skill point, low int characters, taking the Skill Point option increases their Skill Ranks by 50% (say), whereas, they already have high HPs. An extra skill is GREAT for Fighters. A moderate INT Rogue getting 10 Ranks/ Level only gains 10% benefit from an additional skill point.
As for your example of the mage: If a class "comes naturally" to a character, wouldn't that mean they can apply their energies in other departments without interfering with their class abilities? So, they can choose a Skill to practice, or they practice Calisthenics and Sparring with their Fighter buddy, to increase their "HPs"... Make any more sense? :-)
Well as to the favorite class, I have made my point the best I could. We will see what happens.
P.S. OH I forgot, a rogue and cleric can power attack for the same amount of damage as a fighter, paladin, and ranger. A Druid with their wild shape could possible get even higher than a fighter, but I don't know about their ability to wield a weapon two handed in their alternate form.
I like the system, however the recovery time is WAY WAY WAAAYY too long as if you use one of the powers and you come to a false end to a fight your probably completely out of a fight any way.
At first level, you should only be able to rage for one fight anyway.
I like the system, however the recovery time is WAY WAY WAAAYY too long as if you use one of the powers and you come to a false end to a fight your probably completely out of a fight any way.At first level, you should only be able to rage for one fight anyway.
You don't get it? If you can only rage for one fight at level 1 after raging for only 3 rounds then how is it going to be when you get rage powers and your rage costs 2 or 3 points PER ROUND.
So again, if they aspect you to be able to rage multiple times in a fight, this would probably be impossible be impossible with the current system. So this wont get better as you level it will get MUCH worse.
I don't think you know what your talking about. I had 8 rage points at first having put my best stat and human choice stat into it. The amount of points was not the problem if you minded to read it, it was the very long duration of coming out of rage.
You don't get it? If you can only rage for one fight at level 1 after raging for only 3 rounds then how is it going to be when you get rage powers and your rage costs 2 or 3 points PER ROUND.
You don't have rage powers at 1st level, so it's not an issue there. At higher levels, you'll have significantly more rage points, so again, not an issue.
I don't think you know what your talking about. I had 8 rage points at first having put my best stat and human choice stat into it. The amount of points was not the problem if you minded to read it, it was the very long duration of coming out of rage.
In 3.5, the fatigue lasts until the end of the combat. So, you're comparatively better off, because even though now you very well might be fatigued for a few minutes after combat, it doesn't much matter being fatigued during out-of-combat time. Granted, you have to make sure combat is over before you end your rage, but so what? I kinda like the image of the barbarian hacking down the last man and then just heaving and grunting with anger as he looks around the battlefield for a few moments for someone else to kill.
In any case, Jason is most likely going to switch to this rage system anyway. I've playtested it a bit, and it works better than the one in the beta in nearly every way.
You don't get it? If you can only rage for one fight at level 1 after raging for only 3 rounds then how is it going to be when you get rage powers and your rage costs 2 or 3 points PER ROUND.You don't have rage powers at 1st level, so it's not an issue there. At higher levels, you'll have significantly more rage points, so again, not an issue.
I don't think you know what your talking about. I had 8 rage points at first having put my best stat and human choice stat into it. The amount of points was not the problem if you minded to read it, it was the very long duration of coming out of rage.In 3.5, the fatigue lasts until the end of the combat. So, you're comparatively better off, because even though now you very well might be fatigued for a few minutes after combat, it doesn't much matter being fatigued during out-of-combat time. Granted, you have to make sure combat is over before you end your rage, but so what? I kinda like the image of the barbarian hacking down the last man and then just heaving and grunting with anger as he looks around the battlefield for a few moments for someone else to kill.
In any case, Jason is most likely going to switch to this rage system anyway. I've playtested it a bit, and it works better than the one in the beta in nearly every way.
OK, thanks for the link; but your comments were still really off.
My point is, that if they want you to be able to restart a rage in combat using this system at all, I hate to see what would happen when rage costs two or three points. Sense I spent only 3 rounds in rage in a similar situation with rage costing 2 points, that would be 12 rounds out of combat, while a 3 point rage would make it 18 rounds out of combat. Things as you insinuated will not be able to get better and be able to re-enter rage in the same combat. Maybe this is by design, but if not, things need to be changed where it might be a little more viable. As is, you might as well be fatigued for the rest of combat after 2+ rounds of rage. This is just my observation, which is part of play testing.
OK, thanks for the link; but your comments were still really off.
My point is, that if they want you to be able to restart a rage in combat using this system at all, I hate to see what would happen when rage costs two or three points.
Perhaps you're forgetting that in 3.5, you couldn't ever restart your rage in battle, at least not until 17th level. The fatigue lasted for the rest of the encounter, no matter how long that would be. The system is designed for it to be difficult to get back into rage. That's how it's supposed to work. If you drop out of rage before the last of your enemies are dead, that is a very bad thing by design. And if you really really wanted, you could take the Roused Anger rage power.
So my point is, you're screaming about how the emperor has no clothes... but it's a nude beach...
OK, thanks for the link; but your comments were still really off.
My point is, that if they want you to be able to restart a rage in combat using this system at all, I hate to see what would happen when rage costs two or three points.
Perhaps you're forgetting that in 3.5, you couldn't ever restart your rage in battle, at least not until 17th level. The fatigue lasted for the rest of the encounter, no matter how long that would be. The system is designed for it to be difficult to get back into rage. That's how it's supposed to work. If you drop out of rage before the last of your enemies are dead, that is a very bad thing by design. And if you really really wanted, you could take the Roused Anger rage power.
So my point is, you're screaming about how the emperor has no clothes... but it's a nude beach...
That is fine, but it would have to be a truly an epic long fight, at a low level as well to be even able to do that. It just seems extremely unlikely, and if they did intend it to be more likely then something needs to be changed, or a new option needs to be given. If they like it this way, then fine, it was just my insinuation that they wanted it to be more of an option from the text.
That is fine, but it would have to be a truly an epic long fight, at a low level as well to be even able to do that. It just seems extremely unlikely, and if they did intend it to be more likely then something needs to be changed, or a new option needs to be given. If they like it this way, then fine, it was just my insinuation that they wanted it to be more of an option from the text.
It's never really supposed to be an issue, in either system. At first level, the PFRPG barbarian gets 4 + Con mod rounds of rage, so ~7, which *should* be long enough to last him (and isn't really much shorter than 3.5's duration). Pathfinder's big change is to offer the barbarian some flexibility with it, so he doesn't get screwed in the short combats (which are more common by far).
And like Blaine linked to, the system Jason has said is likely to be adopted in some form does not charge Rage Points for Powers, and the Powers don't increase Fatigue length. He has asked people to play test the provisional new system for feedback and has indicated that PF will likely be going with the NEW Rage Point/Power system (not in Beta, only described provisionally in his Post). So you'd be much advised to just play test THAT instead of complaining about versions that have already been discarded...
And like Blaine linked to, the system Jason has said is likely to be adopted in some form does not charge Rage Points for Powers, and the Powers don't increase Fatigue length. He has asked people to play test the provisional new system for feedback and has indicated that PF will likely be going with the NEW Rage Point/Power system (not in Beta, only described provisionally in his Post). So you'd be much advised to just play test THAT instead of complaining about versions that have already been discarded...
So no real chance for restart is intended, that is fine. Yes I have put that to the attention of my GM and hope to be able to play test that. Rage powers not increasing recover time is a very good thing. It does also simplify things, but P_R did may a lot of very good points and it looks like some of the powers need work. I personally have high hopes for elemental rage. I hope it becomes a 2nd level power, and has an improvement progression to help two weapon fighting out.