Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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As our fighters/rangers/barbarians time period comes to a close, how about one last notion:
At higher levels, should fighters (or possibly other classes) be able to move more than 5' and still make a full attack?
I was actually first thinking about this when I was noodling over either a series of Whirlwind Attack feats, or just upgraded uses of the basic WA feat.
Whirlwind Attack = attack everyone within reach once.
Improved Whirlwind Attack = attack everyone within reach once, and you can take a 5-ft step during the round (so essentially it's everyone you can reach from two adjacent squares)
Greater Whirlwind Attack = move up to half speed and attack everyone within reach once. Since WA is based off of Spring Attack, any creature you attack doesn't get an AoO, but creatures that threaten you but you don't attack could still AoO you.
Superior Whirlwind Attack = as GWA, but you can move your normal speed.
Oh, and in honor of Groo...
Two-Weapon Fray (prereqs TWF and WA) = you attack everyone in reach once (as normal for WA), but you may also use each attack from your off-hand weapon (i.e., your base attack and any iterative attacks from TWF) vs. targets that you WA. A fighter with more than one off-hand attack per round can use all of them against one target or could spread them out vs. different targets.
Anyway... this got me thinking, instead of tying this concept solely to WA, why not make it a class ability of fighters, or perhaps a high-BAB-requiring feat, to enable martial types to make either a half move or a normal move and still make a full attack in the same round?
True, we already have Spring Attack/Fly-by Attack/Ride-by Attack that let you do one standard action (FBA) or attack (SA/RBA) mid-move.
And, we already have pounce (accessible through shapeshifting or a few feats), which lets you do a charge + full attack.
But that's about it. So how about this class ability:
Tactical move (Ex): At 5th level, a fighter who would normally make a 5-foot step can move 5 additional feet and still perform a full-round action. Like a 5-foot step, this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The fighter's movement ends when she takes her full-round action.
The additional amount a fighter may move with tactical step improves by an an additional 5 feet every 5 levels beyond 5th, though it can never exceed the fighter's normal movement rate.
Thoughts?
Jason,
I would simply suggest that Whirlwind attack be more useful. With the prereqs for the feat being so crazy you should get a whole lot more mileage out of the existing feat.
I would suggest perhaps just allow 1/2 normal speed and attack anyone in reach once.
A second feat that allows an attack with the TWF off hand would be good.
Interesting. Brings to mind a thought I had about upgrading Supreme Cleave, to allow a 5ft step between each Cleave attack.
This was inspired by Leonidas' advance during 300.
I think the ability to combine movement and attacks would definitely come with training and practice. Being a martial artist (2nd Degree Pa Kua/ 1st Degree Sword) I have seen through observation and experience how coordinated the body becomes. Eventually simultaneous actions become second nature.
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My thoughts on the high-level-warrior-never-wanting-to-move problem take the opposite approach -- rather than allowing fighters to move, then full attack, create some feats that cost a standard action (or can be combined with a charge?) but deal damage roughly equal to a full attack (so, probably on the order of 2-3 times the damage of a normal, single attack). Same goal achieved (fighter doesn't screw himself by moving) with the additional benefit of reducing rolls.
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My fighters are level 15 now which means most of them have three or four attacks (6 for the dueal wielders).
I allow them to spend attacks to gain an additional 5ft movement.
The fight we had last night had a critter knocking them all back ten feet into a wall every time it hit (this gave it AoO's when they closed to engage again). IF they didn't have the option to spend the attacks it meant they'd each be doing one attack per round and that's no joy for a fighter.
By spending one of their attack slots, they still got to move ten feet and have two swings at the baddy (5 feet standard, spend attack for additional 5 ft, use your remaining attacks.)
We spend attcks from the bottom up, so weakest attack is lost. At this level, the fighters have to be hitting every round or things go pear shaped quicly (for everyone). The system worked very nicely last night. Kept the fighters happy, the fight was still challenging and everyone lived to talk about it, so good job all round.
Note, for the dual wielders, spending an attack slot also spends their offhand attack for that slot too. So my dual wielders were advancing ten feet and gaining four attacks (two regular, two offhand) and losing two attacks (one regular, one offhand).
For us it worked, and at high level play it seems to keep the balance and fun factor for the fighters in the party.
For the poster above discussing the hold person, confusion, force cage etc. My fighters have learned through those experiences to take teleport boots, flying (potions or buffs or cloaks or boots). The Barbarian "Clear Mind" rage power pulled him out of a confusion in the nick of time as well. I really don't want to see those options reduced to counter a fighters effectiveness too much as it's part of the strategy of the game to overcome those challenges. Remember, if the players are doing it so can the monsters. However that is a personal opinion and I'm sure we'll disagree :)
Oh, and apart from the prebattle buffs, the party cleric and wizard were pretty much useless in the last fight (cleric got trapped by a Maze and couldn't escape - 19 or 20 intelligence roll required). Wizard was facing a golem and a magic user with an Ioun stone that absorbed spells (whatever colour that one is). The wizard did summon some assistance and did dispel the confusion so was very good at support, however the fighter types were the ones who did all the dirty work.
Last fight - Hangman Golem (CR 15), CR 17 spellweaver lich, then the second wave of Over god from Age of Worms campaign (CR 17 big hitting, spell resistant, high save bad guy - low AC). This was a tough fight for casters do well in.
Was a good game though :)
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Giving fighters some extra mobility on the battlefield is a good idea. It doesn't solve all of the problems with the class, but it's a step in the right direction. I also like the idea that fighters should be able to spend attacks to gain an additional movement. In my game, I've been considering a house rule that allows fighters to use attacks of opportunity in this way. Basically, whenever a high-level has a chance to make an attack of opportunity, he may take a single 5-foot step in any direction as an immediate action instead of pressing his advantage.
I allow them to spend attacks to gain an additional 5ft movement.
I really like this; it is very close to some ideas I was pondering this past weekend. As an extension (and/or in lieu of), why not consider allowing a fighter to move up to 1/2 base movement and still make a full attack?
AJC
Oh, please God, yes. I'd love it if fighters could take a full move and a full attack, and split up the move (into 5-ft. steps) and the attacks as they saw fit. For a 16th level Fighter, that might mean strike, move 10 ft., attack again twice, move 5 more ft., attack, and retreat 5 ft. Yes, he'd get to do a lot if he also took Whirlwind Attack -- but no more than a 5th level wizard can do with a fireball, and he'd have to be 16th level to do it!