I've been playing 4th edition since Keep on the Shadowfell came out and... It's just not for me. I find it to be an interesting system, and it has a lot of potential, but its just not being supported by the same kind of top notch material that I read every month in Pathfinder. After our last game I started to really think about whether or not I wanted to switch, and took some of my Rise of Runelords modules off the shelf and read them again.
So, as a result, tomorrow I will be officially announcing to my group that I have decided to give in to their demands and stick with 3.5, and we're going to be playing Pathfinder. I'm not sure what this means for the future - when the PRPG comes out - but I feel like I'm coming home again.
Congratulations Pathfinder team, you had me at "Ten Fun Facts About Goblins."
Congrats on coming to the light side, and welcome.
Congrats on coming to the light side, and welcome.You are welcomed with open arms. Yet another prodigal son returns. May the line behind you be long and distinguished
Now if you and your group join Pathfinder Society we'll kill the fatted calf for the feast :)
What he said :)
Sadly, I don't have enough time to play either game routinely, but I do find time to play them both (and others) sporadically. They both have their merits, but right now Paizo wins hands down (in my opinion) when it comes to quality storytelling. I just wish it were easier to find Pathfinder Society games in small-town Kentucky.
Chad
It is just so sad that our hobby has come to this. I remember when d20 was allowing everyone to make supplements and games for anything that took their fancy, yet it was all harmonious.
Now we are on either side of an edition battle-line, taking some comfort in our loyalty to one side or other. I am still despairing at how we can have gone from what some called "a roleplaying renaissance" to this bitter civil war.
I personally wish that there was no "side" to welcome you to, my friend, but it seems that there is and that there has to be.
Let us hope things settle down, in time.
It is just so sad that our hobby has come to this. I remember when d20 was allowing everyone to make supplements and games for anything that took their fancy, yet it was all harmonious.
Now we are on either side of an edition battle-line, taking some comfort in our loyalty to one side or other. I am still despairing at how we can have gone from what some called "a roleplaying renaissance" to this bitter civil war.
I personally wish that there was no "side" to welcome you to, my friend, but it seems that there is and that there has to be.
Let us hope things settle down, in time.
QFT. From the heady days of the OGL and the unification of gamers under one gaming engine that any could use to the quarrelling and hard feelings as folks feel they must 'choose' one edition or the other. It is hard watching an already small group of people splinter into smaller and smaller segments. It is also sad to see many good people leave gaming boards where the majority don't agree with them. We are poorer by it.
My wish is that, like Thed so eloquently said, things will eventually settle down and we can all mend our fences and have a good time together.
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QFT. From the heady days of the OGL and the unification of gamers under one gaming engine that any could use to the quarrelling and hard feelings as folks feel they must 'choose' one edition or the other. It is hard watching an already small group of people splinter into smaller and smaller segments. It is also sad to see many good people leave gaming boards where the majority don't agree with them. We are poorer by it.
My wish is that, like Thed so eloquently said, things will eventually settle down and we can all mend our fences and have a good time together.
I agree with you both but at it's core is the OGL the brand owner of D&D no longer wants it and companies like Paizo realize it's worth and are ensuring it survives. I have heard some really great things about 4e. Many of my friends play it but I never will.
Keeping the OGL alive it far more important. If it dies then we will be stuck with what ever the market leader dictates. I prefer choice
Keeping the OGL alive it far more important. If it dies then we will be stuck with what ever the market leader dictates. I prefer choice
So do I. Especially if the market leader did what he did and made the choices he made. The OGL was a great idea, and it can still work, despite wizards making a U-turn and leaving the playground with all their toys.
It is also sad to see many good people leave gaming boards where the majority don't agree with them. We are poorer by it.
It's not a good idea spending significant time playing a game you don't like. In that case, it really is better to pick up your things and go. Spare time's too precious to waste on suboptimal recreation.
It is just so sad that our hobby has come to this. I remember when d20 was allowing everyone to make supplements and games for anything that took their fancy, yet it was all harmonious.
I don't ever remember all being harmonious. Before the 3e/4e war, there was the 2e/3e war. And of course, there's also the D&D/WoD thing, and the D&D/DSA thing, and who knows what else.
I personally wish that there was no "side" to welcome you to, my friend, but it seems that there is and that there has to be.
Well, wizards did a good job fanning those flames. I don't know whether that was intention or incompetence, but their whole 4e-promotion was anything but nice on 3e.
I just wanted to let people know that my decision has absolutely nothing to do with the version of the game (in this case, 3.5) but everything to do with the quality of the material that I have to choose from.
I don't have a lot of spare time to spend making my own campaigns, or converting things into the edition I am playing, so I need to run pre-generated material. Which means that my choice boiled down to:
4th Edition: A nebulous unnamed world without a rich history of its own, cobbled together from the remnants of earlier editions.
Pathfinder: The world of Golarion, which in many ways reminds me of my favorite campaign world (Greyhawk), whose modules are written by the best people in the business.
Looking at it this way, the choice seemed obvious to me.
I agree with the OP about the quality of product being a big driving force. The Pathfinder AP story lines are strong and help to draw me into the campaign settings. The little short "player companion" booklets that are linked to the APs are also helpful to get my players interested/involved.
When 4E first came out, I got the PHB/DMG/MM and Keep on the Shadowfell right away. I've also purchased Thunderspire and Pyramid since then. However, another person in our group has taken over DM'ing. I just cannot get into it. If I am not playing in a campaign, there are some things I need to keep myself interested as a DM...continuity, good overarching plots, recurring villains, a great setting, etc. After starting the new 4E campaign and not finding any of those things, I just found myself staring at the monthly deliveries of Pathfinder and wondering what the heck I was doing.
I'm not writing this to start another thread on comparing Pathfinder/4E, but suffice to say, as a player I am finding 4E to be fun. Some of the changes I like and some I don't, but overall I think it is fine. I don't find it amazingly better than 3.5 though, and when I look at the (literally) wall of 3.5 D&D books I own already, it just seems stupid to invest tons 'o' cash in a new game for something that is not great.
Paizo's writing quality is currently blowing away the 4E published adventures and setting, and the new ruleset is not staggeringly better. I for one hope that Paizo's Pathfinder RPG efforts succeed and they can stay financially viable, because they are providing more than enough reason for me to not swap trains.
As long as someone else wants to buy the 4E books and DM it though, I'll play my tiefling warlock and burn my foes for as long as he lives :)
It is also sad to see many good people leave gaming boards where the majority don't agree with them. We are poorer by it.It's not a good idea spending significant time playing a game you don't like. In that case, it really is better to pick up your things and go. Spare time's too precious to waste on suboptimal recreation.
I wonder if you have misunderstood Patrick's point. My impression of his statement is that he is lamenting the disappearance of community members who left due to the inability of some on a board to seperate their hostility towards a system from those people who choose to play it. Note he didn't specify a board or edition, as I believe it will vary.
If you did interpret Patrick's post as I have, and yet are expressing support for encouraging the minority on a board to leave, then, uh, nevermind.
Ironically, I've probably owned 3 sets of 4e books since they were released. I get them, peruse them, realise that they're just not for me and sell them off. My real problem seems to have been a really short memory.
I'm really liking liking the Pathfinder releases, and the "feel" of the products. Not sure if its the art/layout/???, but something about the books really appeals to me - then of course there's the actual content which isn't too shabby either... ;)
Really looking forward to where this is going.
AJC
It is also sad to see many good people leave gaming boards where the majority don't agree with them. We are poorer by it.It's not a good idea spending significant time playing a game you don't like. In that case, it really is better to pick up your things and go. Spare time's too precious to waste on suboptimal recreation.
I wonder if you have misunderstood Patrick's point. My impression of his statement is that he is lamenting the disappearance of community members who left due to the inability of some on a board to seperate their hostility towards a system from those people who choose to play it. Note he didn't specify a board or edition, as I believe it will vary.
If you did interpret Patrick's post as I have, and yet are expressing support for encouraging the minority on a board to leave, then, uh, nevermind.
Hm.. you might be right. Maybe not, but you're approaching rightness from the opposite direction, so let's try to meet in the middle :)
The issues I think are discussed here, and my opinions on them, are:
But if they're playing in a way that really gets on your nerves (constant in-fighting and backstabbing when you want a harmonious team; hack'n'slash if you want plot and storytelling...), it's better not to play at all. Bad recreation is worse than no recreation, since you cannot really relax.
In that case, I suggest you leave. Not because I want to be rid of you (though this can indeed be the case: If you're interested in discussing character optimisation in the character optimisation boards, the guy who keeps on posting things like: "enough powergaming, help me creating a better dwarven enclave" can get on your nerves), but because you'll probably not be comfortable here.
Of course, my example is quite the exaggeration, but it is supposed to highlight the underlying problem: If you're in the minority, it might be interesting for a while - you're getting a new point of few, and insights into other people's way of doing things. But in the long run, it will become frustrating if you can't discuss the things the way you like because too few people share your point of few to get enough decent input.
Hmm ... Actually what I was trying to convey is that there should be room for everyone on the board. People shouldn't have to feel they are unwanted just because they are in a minority. We after all, have a 4E board structure as well as a Other RPGs section. They obviously generate enough enthusiam to stay open despite their minority status on these boards.
Minorities can be a very beneficial thing. Even if you do not agree or follow what they are doing, they often serve as a mirror to what you are doing. Their threads add to the health and complexity of the boards.
While I am a Pathfinder afficianato, I enjoy looking at other game threads, not so much for the mechanics (which I don't really care about) but for ideas and gaming discussions, which I can modify for my own use.
A homogenous board would be a poorer board in my humble opinion. I know there is blame and acrimony on both sides of this ridiculous Edition war, but do we really want to have the kind of atmosphere we decry from other boards where our type of gaming is derided and moderated into the background?
There is plenty of room for threads of any nature. Take a look at the Off Topic Discussion Threads if you don't believe me. We don't have to be 'one mind one purpose.' The various threads should weave together to form a stronger fabric, not snarl into a ball of useless string.
/early morning rant
Perhaps we should all remember the old rule:
If you can't say anything nice about something, don't say anything at all.
Sadly this rule is largely forgotten these days, especially with the comforting safe anonymity of the Internet.
Perhaps we should all remember the old rule:
If you can't say anything nice about something, don't say anything at all.
Sadly this rule is largely forgotten these days, especially with the comforting safe anonymity of the Internet.
Yeah, there's a lot of rude people sitting around in courtrooms! :P
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In that case, I suggest you leave. Not because I want to be rid of you (though this can indeed be the case: If you're interested in discussing character optimisation in the character optimisation boards, the guy who keeps on posting things like: "enough powergaming, help me creating a better dwarven enclave" can get on your nerves), but because you'll probably not be comfortable here.
Of course, my example is quite the exaggeration, but it is supposed to highlight the underlying problem: If you're in the minority, it might be interesting for a while - you're getting a new point of few, and insights into other people's way of doing things. But in the long run, it will become frustrating if you can't discuss the things the way you like because too few people share your point of few to get enough decent input.
Interesting opinion. A while back I did put up a post suggesting 4E gamers start looking/moving over to the NG forums for support. This was, of course, before NG got stymied by the GSL.
Now I increasing tell 4E gamers to go to ENWorld or rpg.net for support when they ask me about the Paizo boards. Same with folks who, like myself, play all systems. The early hostility and now apathy just isn't worth visiting here. A few posters have even suggested this should have been "expected" by 4E gamers, since Paizo's Pathfinder "competes" against Dungeons & Dragons and shouldn't expect support in a rival's homepage.
Yeah, there's a lot of rude people sitting around in courtrooms! :P
I don't think lawyers are rude to each other or the respective clients. They might put on an air of incredulousness to ham up a point against a witness, or directly confront someone who is dissembling, but rarely will you see a good lawyer yelling, "You suck eggs". Their clients might be rude to each other, that's probably why they are in court using legal measures to deal with each other. The court is the last refuge when people can't talk out their differences.
I'm tired of debating this anyway, the path of respect for others seems to be an unpopular one in modern society, so be it. These forums will evolve how they evolve, if we lose the 4E people, then I hope they find a kinder haven somewhere else. I had just hoped that we could all live with each other's gaming styles and not act like a big high school clique and kick out the 'uncool kids' who wanted to do something different.
The small monkey runs off to the PbP threads
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I had just hoped that we could all live with each other's gaming styles and not act like a big high school clique and kick out the 'uncool kids' who wanted to do something different.
The thing is, we didn't. And by "we" I mean the community as a whole. In principle, I agree with everything you said. But as KaeYoss mentioned some posts up this thread, the people leaving weren't necessarily innocent. Most of the more vocal proponents of the 4E on these boards have been exactly as offending and snarky as those critizising the new edition. So if those people don't feel welcome, could be that this has to do more with their attitude but with their opinion.
What I see is: As long as people are actually discussing the rules, there is no problems. Problems arise as soon as anyone critizises the new edition for what reasons ever. I don't deny that there are trolls flaming 4E proponents but I see the other side doing the same more often than not.
So someone likes 4E and want to talk about it? No prob I'm fine with that. But he'd better not start calling me a moron (directly or indirectly) just because I vocalize any criticism if he wants me to welcome him with arms wide open.
P.S. Please be aware of the fact that I tend to ignore the 4E boards and don't belong to the combatants in any threads
The thing is, we didn't. And by "we" I mean the community as a whole. In principle, I agree with everything you said. But as KaeYoss mentioned some posts up this thread, the people leaving weren't necessarily innocent. Most of the more vocal proponents of the 4E on these boards have been exactly as offending and snarky as those critizising the new edition. So if those people don't feel welcome, could be that this has to do more with their attitude but with their opinion.
I agree WormysQueue that there is plenty of blame on both sides of the equation. Some of the 4E people have been nothing but contemptuous of Pathfinder. My complaint is not aimed at 3E/Pathfinder boosters or 4e boosters, it is more an observation on how sad it is we can't all find common ground as tabletop gaming enthusiasts and just leave it at that. Perhaps my analogy of the high-school clique was misguided, but it seems that this board is now the 3E turf, while WotC has become the 4E turf. While the majority of either community might not get into it with the other side, enough people do that I feel it makes people who are not with the majority uncomfortable.
What I see is: As long as people are actually discussing the rules, there is no problems. Problems arise as soon as anyone critizises the new edition for what reasons ever. I don't deny that there are trolls flaming 4E proponents but I see the other side doing the same more often than not.
Absolutely. The problem is when you get drive by trollings from people who have an imagined axe to grind against one of the editions. Then the level of discourse starts to dip. I just wish everyone could let the anger go. As a wise man once said:
Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.
4E is here to stay. Pathfinder is here to stay. They don't have to be mutually exclusive, and every time the proponents get in an argument/flame war the level of discourse cheapens.
Don't get me wrong, I am far from a WotC apologist. I have my own personal reasons for not liking them and not supporting the 4th edition. I have yet to spend one thin dime on 4E products, and I used to have a $40-80 a month budget for gaming that went to them (that now heads to Paizo). I however, do not think any less of someone who wishes to play their 4E game. That is a personal choice, just like mine is to support Pahtfinder.
There is no right and no wrong to this argument. People will act as they feel they must. I will just keep saying that it is our loss when folks decide to take off. Some, as you said, are not innocent. Some are just tired of hearing that their game choice sucks. My true fear is that we will become a community without a viable minority voice. Monocultures are dead ends.
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My true fear is that we will become a community without a viable minority voice. Monocultures are dead ends.
As I said before, I actually agree with you. My own gripes with the whole 4E thing have nothing to do with the rules per se but mostly with
1. GSL
2. WotC marketing
3. what I feel to be the overall strategy underlying the new system.
The thing is, I do a lot of advertising for Pathfinder on some german boards. So I know what it means to be in the minority be it that those boards are general RPG boards covering a lot of different systems or that they support D&D (and, by extension, first and foremost 4E).
Interestingly enough, the only board where my advertising earns open enmity by quite a lot of members is the D&D-only board. Not because I made snarky remarks about D&D 4E from the beginning or that I tried to convince people that Pathfinder is much superior to 4E but because those persons don't like others to point to viable alternatives.
Luckily Paizo's product line is so strong that I don't have to argue if I don't feel like. I just have to show them. But believe me I know exactly how it feels to feel unwelcome.
And generally, I feel this here at paizo is a great, welcoming and quite accepting community
As I said before, I actually agree with you. My own gripes with the whole 4E thing have nothing to do with the rules per se but mostly with
1. GSL
2. WotC marketing
3. what I feel to be the overall strategy underlying the new system.
My problems as well, and I will also add:
4. Killing the print editions of Dragon and Dungeon
And generally, I feel this here at paizo is a great, welcoming and quite accepting community
And it is, I am just trying to be proactive and try to keep it that way. Inaction can lead to only the loud shouters having a voice. I don't have an axe to grind, I just want folks to focus on their own fun and let the other folks concentrate on theirs.
I love this messageboard, as my post count shows. I want it to be a beacon of acceptance and intelligent discourse. I want everyone to feel welcome here, even if they play Bunnies and Burrows. To paraphrase another great man:
I have a dream that my PCs will one day live on a messageboard where they will not be judged by the edition they play in but by the content of their character sheet.
Anyway, I have said my piece. I will continue to plead for civility, and I hope that those out there angry over the Edition Wars will learn to let go and begin to have fun with their hobby again.
All I can add is "Welcome to Pathfinder, the more the merrier....." There really isnt any side, imho. Play what you and your group will enjoy playing.