Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The fighter stickiness thread gave me this idea and it seemed off topic enough to merit it's own thread. What about giving fighters an extra AoO each time they get an extra iterative attack?
I realize they could take combat reflexes, but that really only works for certain high dex builds. Giving fighters extra AoOs would help them control the melee battlefield more and give them something of a niche.
Similarly, if they did have extra AoO's, that could be a resource akin to the barbarian's rage. The fighter could gain feats or abilities to spend their AoO's for various effects (e.g. stopping the movement of a foe, temporarily increase their AC, or do extra damage).
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Some other ideas of things fighters could spend AoO's doing:
1. Spend an AoO to make an extra 5' adjustment during a full attack.
2. Spend an AoO to deny an opponent an AoO.
3. Spend an AoO to temporarily increase AC.
4. Spend an AoO to make an attack against an enemy attempting to move past the fighter. The attack does not cause damage, but immediately stops the enemy's movement.
5. Spend an AoO to increase the DC of a Spellcraft check for casting on the defensive by +5 within the fighter's treat zone.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Some other ideas of things fighters could spend AoO's doing:
1. Spend an AoO to make an extra 5' adjustment during a full attack.
2. Spend an AoO to deny an opponent an AoO.
3. Spend an AoO to temporarily increase AC.
4. Spend an AoO to make an attack against an enemy attempting to move past the fighter. The attack does not cause damage, but immediately stops the enemy's movement.
5. Spend an AoO to increase the DC of a Spellcraft check for casting on the defensive by +5 within the fighter's treat zone.
I like it. Especially being in the fighter's "treat zone." One package of Ding-Dongs for me, please! :)
(No, seriously, it's a good idea. Just giving fighters extra AoOs. There was a PrC in 3.0 'Sword and Fist' that did this, the "Knight of the Great Kingdom" or something like that. Giving fighters more AoOs, and making those AoOs spendable for such actions, would be a simple and good resource.)
How about adding:
6. Spend an AoO to aid another any adjacent ally.
7. Spend an AoO to increase the Acrobatics DC to move through the threatened area by +5.
8. Spend an AoO to treat threatened area as difficult terrain for one creature.
9. Spend an AoO to take a 5' step before or after making an AoO.
10. Spend an AoO to increase reach by 5' for one attack.
Just some ideas...
What about giving fighters an extra AoO each time they get an extra iterative attack? Some other ideas of things fighters could spend AoO's doing:
1. Spend an AoO to make an extra 5' adjustment during a full attack.
2. Spend an AoO to deny an opponent an AoO.
3. Spend an AoO to temporarily increase AC.
4. Spend an AoO to make an attack against an enemy attempting to move past the fighter. The attack does not cause damage, but immediately stops the enemy's movement.
5. Spend an AoO to increase the DC of a Spellcraft check for casting on the defensive by +5 within the fighter's treat zone.
YES! YES! YES! Everyone's favorite resident My Little Pony has justified all of his supposed megalomania with this one thread! (Sorry, Seb, have to give you a hard time if I'm endorsing your ideas).
Jason's further ideas look good, too. And we could maybe also use some of Craig Shackleton's "Art of the Duel" feats that use AoOs for parrying, riposting, etc. This simple concept opens wide vistas of opportunity for a fighter to be more than just a glorified henchman.
How many are you thinking?
Giving this as a bonus.. and adding Combat Reflexes to increase your aoo/round would make quite the mix.
I don't know how much I like it, but I do think its an idea worthy of discussion and exploration. Good call.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
It should probably specifically state that the ability does not stack with Combat Reflexes... use whichever gives you more AoPs.How many are you thinking?
Giving this as a bonus.. and adding Combat Reflexes to increase your aoo/round would make quite the mix.
I'm all for it stacking, actually. It gives all fighters extra AoOs. It also gives high-Dex fighters the chance for even more AoOs.
It should probably specifically state that the ability does not stack with Combat Reflexes... use whichever gives you more AoPs.How many are you thinking?
Giving this as a bonus.. and adding Combat Reflexes to increase your aoo/round would make quite the mix.
I think it should stack with Combat Reflexes.
I don't care much for the "Spend an AoO to XXX" mechanism though. Maybe make some feats that give fighters more chances to spend AoOs though. Something like:
Opportunistic attack: Whenever a creature adjacent to the fighter gains the flanked condition the fighter is able to make an AoO
I'm in favor of them stacking -- fighters should be better than anyone else at reacting in a fight.
And in favor of feats that use AoO, as noted above.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I'm glad this idea wasn't a total loser - I felt guilty bumping it.
I like Iziak's idea of being able to sacrifice iterative attacks to get extra AoOs and like the suggestions being thrown out for other options (the +5 on Tumble DCs seems particularly useful).
I could go either way with the level of complexity. Having the fighter get extra AoO's as a class feature and then having feats that allow them to transform those AoO's into other bonuses (akin to the feats that let clerics use their turn undead ability to do different things) or having a menu of abilities built into the class (ala the rogue or the barbarian) each have pluses and minuses. I think fighter's are largely about customization, so giving extra AoOs as a class feature and then having feats letting AoOs be used for different purposes (and therefore available to other classes) seems cool to me. It seems like a monk or rogue could get some mileage out of these types of abilities too, provided they spent the feat to do it. It's just that fighters would be better at it because they would get extra AoOs and extra feats, whereas the other classes would either need to burn two feats (Combat Reflexes plus an AoO spending feat) or live with having an AoO spending feat that they can only use once per turn.
And I definitely think threat zone should be renamed treat zone. Yeah...that's the ticket...it was intentional...
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I'm in favor of them stacking -- fighters should be better than anyone else at reacting in a fight.
And in favor of feats that use AoO, as noted above.
I agree, and would even go so far as to say the effects could stack too (if applicable). So, if you really did not want someone casting in your threat zone, you could burn 2 AoO's to increase the Spellcraft DC by +10.
I agree, and would even go so far as to say the effects could stack too (if applicable). So, if you really did not want someone casting in your threat zone, you could burn 2 AoO's to increase the Spellcraft DC by +10.
This is getting scary -- I'm suddenly agreeing with Sebastian on everything. We need to get Heathansson in here just to throw an argument into the mix.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
I also think it's a great idea. In particular as an expendable resource. The question is, if this were adopted, should general AoOs from any class be expendable in this way, or in some ways, but fighters have more options for them? Most characters would probably simply use them as they are now, for attacks, but for non-fighters with combat reflexes, they'd have some extra options as well.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I also think it's a great idea. In particular as an expendable resource. The question is, if this were adopted, should general AoOs from any class be expendable in this way, or in some ways, but fighters have more options for them? Most characters would probably simply use them as they are now, for attacks, but for non-fighters with combat reflexes, they'd have some extra options as well.
I think it'd be cool to let everyone do it by offering the AoO-spending abilities as feats, it's just that fighters would be the best at it because they would get more AoOs and more feats than the other classes.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
I also think it's a great idea. In particular as an expendable resource. The question is, if this were adopted, should general AoOs from any class be expendable in this way, or in some ways, but fighters have more options for them? Most characters would probably simply use them as they are now, for attacks, but for non-fighters with combat reflexes, they'd have some extra options as well.I think it'd be cool to let everyone do it by offering the AoO-spending abilities as feats, it's just that fighters would be the best at it because they would get more AoOs and more feats than the other classes.
We perhaps should start cooking up some AoO-spending feats for the time when the feat discussion comes back around.
Or think about combat rules around AoO's in the "combat" playtest section to propose, so that feat or no feat ANYBODY can do x-and-such with an AoO, rather than just making a regular attack.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Rather than adding extra AoOs, which mean more bookkeeping, what about this?
Opportune Fighter (Ex): Whenever a fighter has the option of taking a legitimate Attack of Opportunity, they may instead take a standard action.
That would stack nicely with Combat Reflexes (for extra AoOs. Thoughts?
1. What's a legitimate AoO?
2. Could be interesting, as standards can be used for attack or move. Could treat it like a 'surprise round' kind of action.
3. We still need (IMO) something to address the issue of broadening the fighter's threatened area to actually promote more AoOs happening, or all these extra AoOs he gets in theory will be so much window dressing on a brick wall in actual play.
1. What's a legitimate AoO?
2. Could be interesting, as standards can be used for attack or move. Could treat it like a 'surprise round' kind of action.
3. We still need (IMO) something to address the issue of broadening the fighter's threatened area to actually promote more AoOs happening, or all these extra AoOs he gets in theory will be so much window dressing on a brick wall in actual play.
What about :
A fighter can burn an AoO once per round to take a 5' step as an immediate action. The fighter can only take this action if he moved less than his full move on the previous turn.
This effectively increases the fighters threatened area by 5' in any direction once per round...
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
grumble... stupid postmonster
I was noodling on the idea of whether fighters should be able to take AoOs when an enemy provokes an AoO from one of their allies.
Monster A is next to Character B and does something to provoke.
Character B takes AoO.
Fighter C, since his ally got to take an AoO, takes one too.
The problem is that this still relies on the fighter being next to the bad guy, in which case he's getting an AoO already. I could see a fighter class ability of being an "Opportune Attacker (Ex)" that let you spend 2 AoOs to take an AoO whenever an ally does, with a 5' step allowed to close with the enemy.
I noodled out some different ideas, which all felt kinda kludgy...
You can spend AoOs to do the following:
1. Make a melee AoO vs. a target in your TA.
2. Make a 5-foot step before making an AoO.
3. Make a ranged AoO vs. a target within twice your TA (if your reach is 5', you can make ranged AoOs within 10') - I dunno, this is a notion.
You can also, on your turn, spend one or more AoOs to increase the size of your threatened area. For each AoO you spend, your threatened area increases by 5 feet.
As a simpler option, perhaps using the Ready action, instead of readying for a specific thing, would simply increase the size of your threatened area and enable you to more easily make AoOs. I dunno, it's a thought.
But I finally came up with this. It's simple, it's easy, and it really rewards the fighter:
Class ability (fighter):
Patrol (Ex): At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, your threatened area increases by 5 feet for the purpose of threatening attacks of opportunity. You can use melee or ranged weapons when making AoOs against targets in your threatened area, even if they have cover from you.
If you wish to make a melee attack of opportunity against a target that is outside of your reach, you may make one or more 5-foot steps (which do not provoke attacks of opportunity and can be done even in difficult terrain) by 'spending' one attack of opportunity per 5-foot step. You cannot move farther than your normal speed with these steps, but moving in this way does not affect your movement on your next turn.
What do you think?
I think it accomplishes the net goal (giving the fighter the ability to move around and control more of the battlefield) without having to invoke a lot of goofy subsystems.
|
|
This is a pretty hot idea. I've always wanted a little more 'oomph' out of Attacks of Opportunity, and a high Dex and Combat Reflexes never seem to be able to work their ways into my Fighter point-buy, so the idea always gets ix-nayed.
Having a series of Feats that spent AoOs as currently (opportunity cost, heh) is also great, as already mentioned, because it allows the high-Dex Combat Reflex-having Monk or Rogue to snatch that up as well.
Clerics have their Divine feats, Druids their Wild feats, Rogues their Ambush feats, so I totally love the idea that Fighters could get something like this as well, and using a resource (AoOs) that they already have built in!
As for Sebastian creating a thread to post about a rules mechanic, and myself agreeing with his idea, I'm expecting flying pigs as the next sign of the impending apocalypse. :)
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Okay, here are some more of my thoughts for whatever they're worth.
First, the basic ability:
The basic idea of give fighters more AoOs is simple and easy to understand. I'm reluctant to add a great deal of complexity in the base class, particularly since fighters are supposed to be a basic class. I really don't like the idea of granting extra standard actions to fighters - most of what they want to do can be done with an attack. The classes that want extra standard actions are the spellcasters, and whenever there is an ability potentially granting more spells, that ability needs to be carefully balanced.
So, my thought would be to give the fighter +1 AoO each time they get an additional iterative attack and an extra 5' effective reach for AoOs at 12th level. That's it. Everything else would be done through feats.
The logic here is to make this ability like the rogue's sneak attack/cleric's turning - it is useful in and of itself but you can make it more complicated and customized if that's your thing. I added in the increased reach just to make it so that the ability to use the AoOs comes into play more often.
Now the feats:
One question about the feats is what to do about archers/spellcasters who don't normally have a threat zone and therefore could buy the feat to trade their AoOs (which they never use) for a bonus. As such, all feats relating to AoOs should only affect threatened enemies. There's also the question of how much of a feat tree to build. I've tried to make the feats synergistic so that instead of wanting to climb the tree, you want to get a collection of feats which are better collectively than individually (sorta like the luck feats).
I'm Better at AoOs
Benefit: Get a +2 to hit with AoOs. You can sacrifice regular attacks to get extra AoOs as part of a full attack action.
Not sure if this should have a clause limiting the ability to sacrifice non-iterative attacks, e.g. the extra attack from TWF. If it's okay to sacrifice your extra TWF attack, this feat will be attractive to rangers and might provice incentive for them to take the AoO feats. I'm generally okay with this, and like the incentive it creates. One other thing to note - this is set up such that if you sacrifice an attack to get an AoO, you can't do anything else in that round (it's a full round action). The flavor text of this ability would be that your concentrating on attacking when openings present themselves rather than creating an opening. I also like that it mitigates mobility and gives the fighter a better chance to shut down foes with that feat.
Spend AoOs for AC
Benefit: Spend an AoO to get [+1/+2?] to AC against foes that you threaten.
I'm not sure how big the bonus to AC should be. +2 seems like it could get insane at high levels, but +1 almost seems to low. You could split the baby and say +2 for the first AoO and +1 thereafter, but I think this should work at +1 level. Another idea would be to have it give +1 to AC and Trip/Disarm/etc. That would let the fighter have a better defense against those annoying abilities.
Knock that Shit Off
Benefit: Spend an AoO to increase the DC of Spellcraft and Tumbling checks by [+3/+4?] made by foes that you threaten.
This one seems simple enough, and I like the fact that it affects both skills - I think it would be too weak to only do one or the other.
Move when you make an AoO
Benefit: Whenever you make an AoO, you may make a 5' adjustment.
This is my attempt to make a synergistic feat and give the fighter the ability to move all around the combat area.
Spend an AoO to Move
Pre-Requisite: Move when you make an AoO
Benefit: You may spend an AoO to make a 5' adjustment.
I broke my rule above about making all these feats operate against threatened enemies because I do think the archer builds should be able to benefit from the extra AoOs in some way (and, as a result, I also added a pre-requisite). This feat would let archers be behind cover, pop out, light up a bad guy, and then duck back behind cover. For the melee fighter, it lets him dance around the combat field more. It might make sense to just combine this with Move when you make an AoO - I had them as a single feat, but ultimately decided to break them apart.
Stickyness
Benefit: Whenever you make an AoO against an opponent, you may choose to stop their movement rather than inflict damage. Make an attack as normal, but if you hit, the opponent immediately ends its movement in the spot it was in before provoking the AoO and cannot move any further this turn.
The key for this feat is to be as good as Improved Trip, which ends the movement, knocks the guy on his ass, and does damage. This feat trades the need to make a Dex/Str check to knock the guy down for doing damage and needing to have a trip weapon.
Meat Shield
Benefit: Spend an AoO. Until the beginning of your next turn, you are considered to occupy each square that you threaten for purposes of determining cover.
This is to let the fighter do an effective job shielding the back row from ranged attacks. It might need to provide a lower bonus to AC, but otherwise I like it.
Counter AoO
Prerequisite: Mobility
Benefit: Whenever you would trigger an AoO, you may spend an AoO to negate your foe's AoO.
[spoiler]
This feat needs a prereq or else it becomes far too valuable for spellcaster types. I chose Mobility because it is a feat that rogues and monks gravitate towards, and I think this gives them a nice counter-ability to the fighter's pumped up AoO ability. Might consider adding an additional clause to this feat that "If you spend two AoOs, you may make an AoO against that foe instead." or, that might be another feat.[spoiler]
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Well, "Stickyness" already exists in the SRD:
The nice thing is that it gives a precedent for the mechanic of trading AoO for other effects.
Stand Still [General]You can prevent foes from fleeing or closing.
Prerequisite:Str 13.
Benefit:When a foe’s movement out of a square you threaten grants you an attack of opportunity, you can give up that attack and instead attempt to stop your foe in his tracks. Make your attack of opportunity normally. If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round.
Since you use the Stand Still feat in place of your attack of opportunity, you can do so only a number of times per round equal to the number of times per round you could make an attack of opportunity (normally just one).
Normal: Attacks of opportunity cannot halt your foes in their tracks.
Perhaps the key point here is for the PF book, while they want to avoid delving into psionics, to make sure to check the psionics part of the SRD to find the feats from there that don't actually require psi to use (like this one).
I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Seriously, good stuff.
tfad
In our games (7th level as of last) AoO's have been few and far between. Most mobs have a medium BAB (or worse with racial HD and non full BAB classes) and high strength which means an easier DC to meet which totally negates all AoO's from movement for that target. While I think that is mostly an issue for the skills thread once it comes, I am all for "Fighters" getting a boost. I think acrobatics should go back to square moved provokes attack at increased DC's.
As it stands the fighter with reach would have to sit there while someone ran up to them, around them and then away all because of the results of one die roll (Acrobatics versus a 1st level fighter dc: 16, a first level acrobatic character could have +12 on the roll - 1 rank +3 class skill, +3 skill focus and up to 5 dex mod). That will stay constant for the investiture of 1 skill point per level for the rest of the characters gaming life. If the skill doesn't change after Beta, maybe give a fighter an ability so that it works like it used to for them only and as a function of fighter class levels (choose a number of adjacent squares equal to their level which they always provoke attacks, so someone who runs by will provoke as many times as they move, forcing the check every square the opponent moves through that was designated. At 9th the squares can be up to 10'away emulating reach - even without a reach weapon). A second level Fighter could bottleneck a 10' wide corridor by choosing the square to this left (or right) and the square diagonally behind that one. Someone trying to run past would provoke 3 attacks and chances are at least on acrobatics check would fail so the fighter would get an attack off. There are already classes (PrC's mostly) out there that limit their ability bonuses/uses by the specific class level and again this promotes taking levels of the fighter. The "Meat Shield" proposed earlier was a half step in that direction but is still just 1 roll with all or nothing for all movement versus the fighter.
Maybe make groups of abilities that are themed. Melee Defense (like above), Melee Offense (negates feats like Improved Grapple, Trip, improved grab ability, constrict, etc. so you get the attack of AoO whenever they are attempted against you - "Yes that fighter just pummeled to death that constrictor snake while it was trying to squeeze him to death"), Ranged Defense (you can make ranged attacks in melee denying AoO's against you, up to as many attacks per round as you have class granted AoO's), Ranged Offense (you threaten squares adjacent to you as if you were wielding a melee weapon like above, but you still provoke an AoO from firing in melee - unless you took Ranged Defense, but at least it is an attack that you weren't getting before). I don't know ranged combat has always seemed the red headed step child of the system it seems. Giving fighter some things to alleviate that would be nice.
However I would like to say that if you were going to add in an ability like this watch the wording, don't leave it as a function of BAB. Make it a class feature that is granted at each of the levels (6th, 11th, 16th) so it doesn't give yet another reason to dip into fighter and then multiclass out to something that increases BAB at full (PrC or another base class). Also please make sure you think through things like "extra move" or "extra standard", those will help others who dip into fighter way too much if you start making them feats, which in turn hurts the fighter class (dip in and get the feats). As a caster who multiclassed with fighter a bit... "Ohh wait until you can see how many spells I can cast this turn!" would be my worry. Heck, give the fighter class a couple of things at low levels, and then at starting at mid levels (8-9th) give it a ton. [Sarcasm]Unfortunately the truth of the game is that a fighter/melee is going to be outclassed once the casters start getting 7th+ spells. Make the fighter "mid heavy", give them a ton of abilities so that they can enjoy the time until they get wished out of the game by the casters... Feats are nice, but you end up running out of feats that are worth it taking and getting filler.[/Sarcasm]