
Dennis da Ogre |

JoelF847 wrote:I like the super-haste idea.a) Increase your speed like haste
b) grant double haste bonuses (+2 to AC, attack rolls, and reflex saves - effectively, you're hasted and everyone else is slowed)
c) grant 1 additional attack at your full attack bonus, even if only using an attack action
I like it a lot too... only it's not "Time Stop", the spell should reflect the spell title at least vaguely.
The idea of stepping out of time for a day is quite cool but it doesn't keep the spirit of the spell. Taking what is essentially a combat only spell and turning it into a utility spell is going to play havoc with NPC spellcasters playlists. It's the 17th level equivalent of turning fireball into a utility spell (Makes a ball of fire that lasts for 2 days and can assist in the creation of magic weapons...).
Whatever changes are made to time stop it still needs to #1 Stop Time and #2 be useful in the same sort of situations it currently is.
What about limiting the spells which can be cast while under time stop to AoE Personal or Creature Touched and cannot harm the target creature?

![]() |

Jason Nelson wrote:JoelF847 wrote:I like the super-haste idea.a) Increase your speed like haste
b) grant double haste bonuses (+2 to AC, attack rolls, and reflex saves - effectively, you're hasted and everyone else is slowed)
c) grant 1 additional attack at your full attack bonus, even if only using an attack actionI like it a lot too... only it's not "Time Stop", the spell should reflect the spell title at least vaguely.
The idea of stepping out of time for a day is quite cool but it doesn't keep the spirit of the spell. Taking what is essentially a combat only spell and turning it into a utility spell is going to play havoc with NPC spellcasters playlists. It's the 17th level equivalent of turning fireball into a utility spell (Makes a ball of fire that lasts for 2 days and can assist in the creation of magic weapons...).
Whatever changes are made to time stop it still needs to #1 Stop Time and #2 be useful in the same sort of situations it currently is.
What about limiting the spells which can be cast while under time stop to AoE Personal or Creature Touched and cannot harm the target creature?
You have a good point about the alternative version we're brainstorming about not actually stopping time. Because of this, let me suggest the radical idea of simply changing the spell name to something like Time Dilation (good reference BTW, Jason, with the Will and the Way). There's already a precedent in PRPG of changing the names of some game elements, in part due to intellectual property issues (i.e. Acid Arrow instead of Melf's Acid Arrow, etc.) and the sidebars on skills and feats about some being merged, etc. Once PRPG is out of Beta and the final version is out, there's not a NEED to even reference the 3.5 conversion issues in the main book, only in a conversion guide on line somewhere.
As for the optional use of the spell I proposed about the stepping out of time to craft faster, I don't see why a single spell can't have applications that are different in different ways that you cast it. From a meta-physics point of view, it's not that different from changing a spell into a counterspell as you cast it. From a game point of view, there are already some spells that can have multiple uses depending on how you cast them - admittedly, most revolve around energy types (such as resist energy, fire shield, etc.), but summon monster spells are an example of how a spell could be primarily a combat spell (go kill these chumps for me), but if you speak the language, it becomes a utility spell , i.e. you can have your summoned monster do other stuff for you (say ferry your party over a chasm if it can fly and carry a rider).

toyrobots |

let me suggest the radical idea of simply changing the spell name to something like Time Dilation (good reference BTW, Jason, with the Will and the Way). There's already a precedent in PRPG of changing the names of some game elements, in part due to intellectual property issues (i.e. Acid Arrow instead of Melf's Acid Arrow, etc.) and the sidebars on skills and feats about some being merged, etc. Once PRPG is out of Beta and the final version is out, there's not a NEED to even reference the 3.5 conversion issues in the main book, only in a conversion guide on line somewhere.
I think it unwise to change spell names. Changing the names for legal reasons is one thing. Changes for cosmetic reasons don't really add anything and they hurt reverse compatibility (for stat blocked spell lists).
That said, I think most people would be able to handle a name change like Time Stop -> Time Dilation. I'd prefer not to see it though, since Time Stop is definitely an iconic fantasy spell— one of the definitive 9th level spells.
Barring the OGL excluded intellectual properties, the least invasive approach to fixing any spell is to leave it's Name and Spell Level in tact, then change the details of the spell to fit with the concept. In the end, it takes less effort to look up a new spell text when it still goes by the old name.

![]() |

JoelF847 wrote:let me suggest the radical idea of simply changing the spell name to something like Time Dilation (good reference BTW, Jason, with the Will and the Way). There's already a precedent in PRPG of changing the names of some game elements, in part due to intellectual property issues (i.e. Acid Arrow instead of Melf's Acid Arrow, etc.) and the sidebars on skills and feats about some being merged, etc. Once PRPG is out of Beta and the final version is out, there's not a NEED to even reference the 3.5 conversion issues in the main book, only in a conversion guide on line somewhere.
I think it unwise to change spell names. Changing the names for legal reasons is one thing. Changes for cosmetic reasons don't really add anything and they hurt reverse compatibility (for stat blocked spell lists).
That said, I think most people would be able to handle a name change like Time Stop -> Time Dilation. I'd prefer not to see it though, since Time Stop is definitely an iconic fantasy spell— one of the definitive 9th level spells.
Barring the OGL excluded intellectual properties, the least invasive approach to fixing any spell is to leave it's Name and Spell Level in tact, then change the details of the spell to fit with the concept. In the end, it takes less effort to look up a new spell text when it still goes by the old name.
I agree 100% that the least invasive approach is to not change it's name, and I wouldn't want lots of that happening. However, I think most people would agree that the Time Stop spell is pretty broken as is, and I can't really see a fix that would still fit the name of the spell. So in this case, I'd personally go with changing the name and effect. That being said, it would be great if smarter minds than mind can figure out a fix to the spell that would leave the name intact, either in the playtest community or at Paizo.

![]() |

What if time stop does not allow the use of spells or spell-like abilities. The stoppage of time means as soon as the magical energy leaves your body, it is no longer controlled and fizzles.
That change, unfortunately, would make the spell virtually useless to the only people who can cast it - high-level Sor/Wiz types.
If it's just a "freeze time so you can run away" spell, it's orders of magnitude less good than anything in the teleport family, with the sole exception of being able to work in no-teleport zones.
What else did you have in mind for the wizzie to do while in his frozen moment? (that would be worthy of burning a 9th level spell to do)

Kirth Gersen |

It seems to me that almost all the potential for the kinds of silly abuse cited earlier could be mitigated with the following minor change:
"While the time stop is in effect, other objects and creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such objects or creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.
"You cannot move or harm items stuck in normal time."
That said, I've never had too great a problem with time stop. It's a 9th level spell -- it's supposed to be comparable to wish and gate.

![]() |

What if time stop does not allow the use of spells or spell-like abilities. The stoppage of time means as soon as the magical energy leaves your body, it is no longer controlled and fizzles.
I think I'd rather dimension door then and use a 9th level spell for something else.
On that note, I'm bringing up a new spell, contingency. It's only a minor quibble, but I've never liked that it's an evocation. I would rather see it as a universal spell, or if not that, a transmutation, abjuration or enchantment.

![]() |

You know, I've never had too great a problem with time stop. It's a 9th level spell -- it's supposed to be comparable to wish and gate. The fact that spells you cast can't affect objects or creatures during the time stoppage means that most potential abuse is mitigated.
As the victim once of a time stop, reverse gravity, gate above the PCs, I think that it is a bit much. Alternatively, replace the gate with a prismatic sphere above the PCs - and then dismiss the reverse gravity - that would be 4 trips through each layer of the sphere.

![]() |

Jal Dorak wrote:What if time stop does not allow the use of spells or spell-like abilities. The stoppage of time means as soon as the magical energy leaves your body, it is no longer controlled and fizzles.I think I'd rather dimension door then and use a 9th level spell for something else.
On that note, I'm bringing up a new spell, contingency. It's only a minor quibble, but I've never liked that it's an evocation. I would rather see it as a universal spell, or if not that, a transmutation, abjuration or enchantment.
Yeah, you're right, it isn't a good fix.
I agree contingency should be a universal spell.

Kirth Gersen |

As the victim once of a time stop, reverse gravity, gate above the PCs, I think that it is a bit much. Alternatively, replace the gate with a prismatic sphere above the PCs - and then dismiss the reverse gravity - that would be 4 trips through each layer of the sphere.
If you've up against someone who's got 2-3 ninth-level spells to throw around with such gleeful abandon, if you lack a quickened teleport (or at least super saves) then you deserve what you get when time resumes.

![]() |

Jal Dorak wrote:What if time stop does not allow the use of spells or spell-like abilities. The stoppage of time means as soon as the magical energy leaves your body, it is no longer controlled and fizzles.I think I'd rather dimension door then and use a 9th level spell for something else.
On that note, I'm bringing up a new spell, contingency. It's only a minor quibble, but I've never liked that it's an evocation. I would rather see it as a universal spell, or if not that, a transmutation, abjuration or enchantment.
Agreed - Universal is where I've always put it when I've run the game.
That said, I also like the idea of making contingent spells use item creation rules. There was a Craft Contingent Spell feat in the FR Unapproachable East book, I believe.

![]() |

It seems to me that almost all the potential for the kinds of silly abuse cited earlier could be mitigated with the following minor change:
"While the time stop is in effect, other objects and creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such objects or creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.
"You cannot move or harm items stuck in normal time."That said, I've never had too great a problem with time stop. It's a 9th level spell -- it's supposed to be comparable to wish and gate.
As far as held objects, they would be invulnerable to you as items being a part of the creature holding them.
As far as unattended objects, I can see your clarifying sentence being a good one, but I don't think it has any effect on most of the hardcore "screw you" effects of TS.

![]() |

JoelF847 wrote:As the victim once of a time stop, reverse gravity, gate above the PCs, I think that it is a bit much. Alternatively, replace the gate with a prismatic sphere above the PCs - and then dismiss the reverse gravity - that would be 4 trips through each layer of the sphere.If you've up against someone who's got 2-3 ninth-level spells to throw around with such gleeful abandon, if you lack a quickened teleport (or at least super saves) then you deserve what you get when time resumes.
1. That assumes all creatures have any teleport abilities, much less quickened ones.
2. The quickened TP ability would be useless in the above case, since you can't cast spells other than immediate actions when it's not your turn. Here's how it goes:
a. TS goes off
b. mage sets his "screw you" trap
c. TS ends
d. the reverse gravity immediately takes effect. Unless you already have a fly/levitate effect going, you insta-fall. No save. No SR. Feather fall doesn't even help, unless the trap spell is more than 60' up.
e. If you're still alive, now you can take your turn and use your quickened TP to escape

![]() |

Kirth Gersen wrote:You know, I've never had too great a problem with time stop. It's a 9th level spell -- it's supposed to be comparable to wish and gate. The fact that spells you cast can't affect objects or creatures during the time stoppage means that most potential abuse is mitigated.As the victim once of a time stop, reverse gravity, gate above the PCs, I think that it is a bit much. Alternatively, replace the gate with a prismatic sphere above the PCs - and then dismiss the reverse gravity - that would be 4 trips through each layer of the sphere.
Actually, they'd hit the 7th layer of the sphere and stop; they can't move through the "blocks all things" layer. Only the caster can pass freely through it.
You could rule that if a character stays RevGrav-ed against the sphere from round to round and is unable to move, they would get whacked with all 7 layers each round.

![]() |

JoelF847 wrote:Kirth Gersen wrote:You know, I've never had too great a problem with time stop. It's a 9th level spell -- it's supposed to be comparable to wish and gate. The fact that spells you cast can't affect objects or creatures during the time stoppage means that most potential abuse is mitigated.As the victim once of a time stop, reverse gravity, gate above the PCs, I think that it is a bit much. Alternatively, replace the gate with a prismatic sphere above the PCs - and then dismiss the reverse gravity - that would be 4 trips through each layer of the sphere.Actually, they'd hit the 7th layer of the sphere and stop; they can't move through the "blocks all things" layer. Only the caster can pass freely through it.
You could rule that if a character stays RevGrav-ed against the sphere from round to round and is unable to move, they would get whacked with all 7 layers each round.
Ah true, it's only deadly, not deadly times four.

![]() |

New spell: moment of prescience
To me, this spell seems pretty lame for 8th level. Sure it's a big bonus, but you can take it exactly once, and it can apply to only one of the following things:
1. Attack roll
2. Skill check
3. Saving throw
4. AC vs. one attack
As an attack booster, it's only better than the 1st level true strike because you can hold it for up to an hour per level instead of having to use it the next round; other than that, it's actually less good.
Obviously, you can use for more than just attacking, and that's all to the good, but is it enough for 8th level? I'm not disputing that it has its uses. That kind of floating bonus is one you can save up and use for that one high-leverage situation when you really need it.
One thing I find a little funny about the spell is that here it is, a divination, a moment of prescience that lets you see into the future, and yet... you have to decide whether to apply the bonus BEFORE YOU ROLL. Wouldn't that prescience, from an 8th level spell, give you a hint as to whether you really would need that bonus or not? You apply the bonus, then you roll high anyway... well, thanks, that helped.
I would suggest one or more of the following tweaks:
1. Allow you to add the bonus AFTER the roll is made (and you know whether you succeeded or failed, but not the exact target).
2. Force you to decide before the roll to use it or not, BUT you get to know the DC you have to beat, so at least you know the odds of the bonus being genuinely helpful (for applying it to AC, I suppose this would mean you would know the monster's attack roll result vs. your AC).
3. Allow you to apportion the bonus out incrementally, rather than in one shot (there was a 3.0 bard spell from "Song and Silence" that did this sort of thing; I think it was only for skills, but basically it was a pool of bonus equal to like 2x caster level that you could apply to skill checks throughout the day).
Thoughts?

toyrobots |

One thing I find a little funny about the spell is that here it is, a divination, a moment of prescience that lets you see into the future, and yet... you have to decide whether to apply the bonus BEFORE YOU ROLL. Wouldn't that prescience, from an 8th level spell, give you a hint as to whether you really would need that bonus or not? You apply the bonus, then you roll high anyway... well, thanks, that helped.
I like. Sounds like an 8th level spell to me now.

![]() |

New spell: moment of prescience
To me, this spell seems pretty lame for 8th level. Sure it's a big bonus, but you can take it exactly once, and it can apply to only one of the following things:
1. Attack roll
2. Skill check
3. Saving throw
4. AC vs. one attackAs an attack booster, it's only better than the 1st level true strike because you can hold it for up to an hour per level instead of having to use it the next round; other than that, it's actually less good.
Obviously, you can use for more than just attacking, and that's all to the good, but is it enough for 8th level? I'm not disputing that it has its uses. That kind of floating bonus is one you can save up and use for that one high-leverage situation when you really need it.
One thing I find a little funny about the spell is that here it is, a divination, a moment of prescience that lets you see into the future, and yet... you have to decide whether to apply the bonus BEFORE YOU ROLL. Wouldn't that prescience, from an 8th level spell, give you a hint as to whether you really would need that bonus or not? You apply the bonus, then you roll high anyway... well, thanks, that helped.
I would suggest one or more of the following tweaks:
1. Allow you to add the bonus AFTER the roll is made (and you know whether you succeeded or failed, but not the exact target).
2. Force you to decide before the roll to use it or not, BUT you get to know the DC you have to beat, so at least you know the odds of the bonus being genuinely helpful (for applying it to AC, I suppose this would mean you would know the monster's attack roll result vs. your AC).
3. Allow you to apportion the bonus out incrementally, rather than in one shot (there was a 3.0 bard spell from "Song and Silence" that did this sort of thing; I think it was only for skills, but basically it was a pool of bonus equal to like 2x caster level that you could apply to skill checks throughout the day).
Thoughts?
I like these also. However, if you use #3, I would limit how you can break it up. Require that they be used in units of +4. This will reduce decision paralysis on the player's part, where they sit and agonize over exactly how much bonus to apply to a particular roll, and therefore keep the game moving at a quick pace.
As an alternative, you could keep the spell as is, but allow the +20 bonus to be used once/2 caster levels.

![]() |

Jason Nelson wrote:New spell: moment of prescience
I would suggest one or more of the following tweaks:
1. Allow you to add the bonus AFTER the roll is made (and you know whether you succeeded or failed, but not the exact target).
2. Force you to decide before the roll to use it or not, BUT you get to know the DC you have to beat, so at least you know the odds of the bonus being genuinely helpful (for applying it to AC, I suppose this would mean you would know the monster's attack roll result vs. your AC).
3. Allow you to apportion the bonus out incrementally, rather than in one shot (there was a 3.0 bard spell from "Song and Silence" that did this sort of thing; I think it was only for skills, but basically it was a pool of bonus equal to like 2x caster level that you could apply to skill checks throughout the day).
Thoughts?
I like these also. However, if you use #3, I would limit how you can break it up. Require that they be used in units of +4. This will reduce decision paralysis on the player's part, where they sit and agonize over exactly how much bonus to apply to a particular roll, and therefore keep the game moving at a quick pace.
As an alternative, you could keep the spell as is, but allow the +20 bonus to be used once/2 caster levels.
If you either (a) know the DC you need to beat, or (b) know after the fact whether you succeeded or failed, either would tend to cut down on the analysis paralysis.
The most powerful interpertation of the spell would be that you know both (success/failure and needed DC). In that case, you would simply apportion the amount of floating bonus that you needed to make the check succeed.
If we want to do it in chunks, it would probably be easiest to say something like:
"This spell provides you with one moment of prescience per 5 levels (maximum 5). Each moment provides a +5 insight bonus to any one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, or to your AC vs. one attack. [my added suggestion: You may wait until after determining if the roll is a success or failure before using a moment; however, you do not know the margin of success or failure.] Using a moment of prescience is a free action that can be done on your turn or someone else's turn. If you wish, you may use more than one moment of prescience to adjust the same die roll; if you do this, the bonuses stack (but they do not stack with other insight bonuses)."
That way, you have nice-sized chunks, and you can still stack them up for one big bonus if you like.
BTW, for myself, I would also allow you to use them on caster level checks.

![]() |

Jason Nelson wrote:BTW, for myself, I would also allow you to use them on caster level checks.Probably easier to simply change it to any d20 roll that represents an action in a single round, instead of including a laundry list of what types of rolls it can apply to.
I'd be fine with that as well. I was just trying to stick as close to the original spell text/limitations as possible.

![]() |

New spell, or set of spells: Is there a simple mechanical fix to avoid the inanity and insanity of the "satchel charge" of explosive runes, glyph of warding, fire seeds, fire trap, and any similar spells.
The ExRunes one could be blocked by stipulating that if YOU dispel your own ER (even with a spell-trigger or spell-completion item, etc.), they don't go off. You could also include a sentence that stipulates that you must roll and may not intentionally fail your dispel check. I don't know that it is actually legal in the rules to 'take 0' on a dispel check as you can on a skill check, but a note under ExRu that you can't do it for that spell would eliminate the trigger mechanism.
You could get around this by having an ally dispel them, but then at least you have to work at it a bit.
I don't know that FT has a satchel charge application, but if there is one I'm sure internet-dom knows it. I don't see an obvious one.
Glyph of warding - perhaps to clarify the "multiple glyphs can't be cast on the same area" we should stipulate that only glyph can be triggered per round in a 5' cube, no matter how many warded objects are there.
Fire seeds - Ranged touch, d6 per level (max 20), no SR, no save, and they stay good forever. Why wouldn't every druid over 11th level have bushels of these things on hand ALL the time?
Back in 1st ed, there was a chance of fire seeds detonating on you if you were carrying em around. Of course, they didn't do much damage anyway, so who cares. Still, something like that might be a point to dissuade pyromaniacal druids.
Thoughts?

![]() |

Fire seeds - Ranged touch, d6 per level (max 20), no SR, no save, and they stay good forever. Why wouldn't every druid over 11th level have bushels of these things on hand ALL the time?
Per the Beta Web enhancement, fire seeds has a duration of 10 min/level, so a druid could use every spell slot of 6th level or higher on these, but they can't stockpile them for days like they could good berries.

![]() |

Jason Nelson wrote:Fire seeds - Ranged touch, d6 per level (max 20), no SR, no save, and they stay good forever. Why wouldn't every druid over 11th level have bushels of these things on hand ALL the time?Per the Beta Web enhancement, fire seeds has a duration of 10 min/level, so a druid could use every spell slot of 6th level or higher on these, but they can't stockpile them for days like they could good berries.
Ah, good. Again, sorry I didn't check the Beta on that. Still a great spell, but not as silly.