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It seems to me that Wizards and Sorcerers would have an unnecessarily hard time landing their touch spells if this were the case. I can't say I see a major problem with Touch AC as it is. I feel it already scales up well enough with rings of protection and Dex bonus increases, plus many other benefits.
Why do you want it changed?
I agree that something needs to be done about it. Some ideas:
1) Eliminating touch AC entirely--treating a ray as just another ranged weapon
2) Treating touch attacks as special attacks that require a CMB check (15 + CMB)
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While I'm having a good time using the class defense bonus (as in the Advanced Gamemaster Manual from Green Ronin), which is capped by the armor used and differentiated between classes, I'm also strongly against a flat AC bonus - even if only for touch AC - based solely on level and without restrictions.
Never had a problem with it personally.
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I don't see the need for a change. Due to the poor BAB progression of classes which regularly rely on touch attacks, hitting a touch AC is not much easier for a wizard or sorcerer to do at higher levels than a regular AC is for a fighter. Now, granted, it probably is somewhat easier overall, but once the spell hits the touch AC, many of them are mitigated by permitting saves (disintegrate), being hampered by energy resistance (scorching ray), or being affected by spell resistance (just about everything). Really, I don't see the issue. There's no reason to make the wizards and sorcerers' lives more difficult. While a fighter can often make numerous attacks per round (including AoOs and the like), a spellcaster often only gets one spell. If that spell misses or fizzles 50% of the time, playing a spellcaster is going to be very frustrating very quickly.
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The main problem I see is the ridiculously low touch ACs of nearly all monsters. Once you reach 15th+, your Warlock with his infinite touch attack eldritch blasts has little problem dealing with most bad guys. At times it is a good thing, at times it is bad. I would just like to see it actually become contested rather than the only-miss-on-a-one way it is now.
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I don't see the need for a change. Due to the poor BAB progression of classes which regularly rely on touch attacks, hitting a touch AC is not much easier for a wizard or sorcerer to do at higher levels than a regular AC is for a fighter. Now, granted, it probably is somewhat easier overall, but once the spell hits the touch AC, many of them are mitigated by permitting saves (disintegrate), being hampered by energy resistance (scorching ray), or being affected by spell resistance (just about everything). Really, I don't see the issue. There's no reason to make the wizards and sorcerers' lives more difficult. While a fighter can often make numerous attacks per round (including AoOs and the like), a spellcaster often only gets one spell. If that spell misses or fizzles 50% of the time, playing a spellcaster is going to be very frustrating very quickly.
I agree with Fate.... Even if he is Chelaxian.. ;-)
Director of Brand Strategy
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I agree that something needs to be done about it. Some ideas:
1) Eliminating touch AC entirely--treating a ray as just another ranged weapon
2) Treating touch attacks as special attacks that require a CMB check (15 + CMB)
I don't think either of these works.
1) A ray simply needs to make contact with the target, not penetrate armors or other defensive gear. Standard AC assumes that you need to not only touch the target but also hit them strong enough or accurately enough to hit the person within.
2) CMB uses strength to determine a creature's bonus. Touch AC is specifically a DEX-based calculation because of the reasons I mentioned above.
I think that the AC system is fine as is.
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The main problem I see is the ridiculously low touch ACs of nearly all monsters. Once you reach 15th+, your Warlock with his infinite touch attack eldritch blasts has little problem dealing with most bad guys. At times it is a good thing, at times it is bad. I would just like to see it actually become contested rather than the only-miss-on-a-one way it is now.
Most monsters with "ridiculously low touch ACs" have retardedly high hit points, amazing saves (except Reflex, generally), and deal a stupifying amount of damage (like most older dragons, for example). Also, many of them (outsiders especially) have various spellcasting or spell-like abilities than can be used to either improve their AC, introduce other variables (like miss chance), or simply take out the offending spellcaster if they aren't properly protected. There is no "I win" button.
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Most monsters with "ridiculously low touch ACs" have retardedly high hit points, amazing saves (except Reflex, generally), and deal a stupifying amount of damage (like most older dragons, for example). Also, many of them (outsiders especially) have various spellcasting or spell-like abilities than can be used to either improve their AC, introduce other variables (like miss chance), or simply take out the offending spellcaster if they aren't properly protected. There is no "I win" button.
Hence my statement of good and bad. You'd be surprised how quickly those HPs disappear under 9d6 blasts every round though. I suppose the fighters helped with that too.
I say I want to see it contested for the same reason I want contested Tumble and Concentration checks. I like tough characters, but I also like high risk situations. Autosuccess is nice, but gets old after awhile.
There is no automatic success in combat. A natural 1 always misses. Besides, the best defense against magical touch and ranged touch attacks is spell resistance, not AC.
An eldritch blast has to hit powerful opponents twice, once for ranged touch and once to penetrate spell resistance. Some spells and spell-likes may also require a failed save.
If you want to make touch and ranged touch magic less effective, make the spell Spell Resistance an arcane spell as well as divine. Honestly, I don't see why it isn't anyway.
-Jack
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There is no automatic success in combat. A natural 1 always misses. Besides, the best defense against magical touch and ranged touch attacks is spell resistance, not AC.
An eldritch blast has to hit powerful opponents twice, once for ranged touch and once to penetrate spell resistance. Some spells and spell-likes may also require a failed save.
If you want to make touch and ranged touch magic less effective, make the spell Spell Resistance an arcane spell as well as divine. Honestly, I don't see why it isn't anyway.
-Jack
I was not aware all touch attacks were defended by a SR. Hell, I was not aware every monster had SR.
Please explain how SR helps here
"Chain Fighter" trip attack
"Grapple Master" grapple attack
Right, but all physical attacks like those (Trip, Grapple) now use CMB, not Touch AC...
I'm not quite sure what your point is with those examples...?
(When CMB comes up, I'll be suggesting basically splitting CMB into one Offensive CMB that uses all attack bonuses, and one Defensive ("DMB") that uses all Touch AC bonuses. That would still maintain a distinct "Touch AC" for where Strength is not an issue at all, basically Touch Spells/Special Abilities. Anything that increases Touch AC would also increase DMB, so it'd definetely be worthwhile to enchant/build for. Weapon Finesse & Dextrous Maneuvers would be rolled into one Feat, with the Defensive function of Dex. Maneuvers becoming free for all characters.)
Uh...fellas? Even 11d6 damage per round (given a magic item) isn't that swell. The wizard can just cast scorching ray and do it better.
Err... What does that have to do with the Touch AC mechanic?
Err... What does that have to do with the Touch AC mechanic?
Apparently, people think that the warlock is really good. It's not. The warlock is okay.
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Right, but all physical attacks like those (Trip, Grapple) now use CMB, not Touch AC...
I'm not quite sure what your point is with those examples...?
Oops forgot about CMB. The argument still stands though.
I was not aware all touch attacks were defended by a SR. Hell, I was not aware every monster had SR.
Yeah, but I basically don't think Touch AC needs to be changed itself.
I don't think Elder Dragons need a massive bonus to their Touch AC, just because they have massive HD. I mean, take a pseudo-stationary blob creature, but Gargantuan with massive HD, why should it get a Touch AC bonus if it's not even really moving? And the Dragon, it's so huge that even if it moves, SOME of it is still in you/your ray's reach, right?
If Touch AC bonuses ARE integrated with Defensive CMB, these bonuses WILL be doubly important to have, though... (well, as important as they were in 3.5)
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@Repairman Jack- Vitrolic Blast makes it acid damage and ignores SR. My autosuccess comment was in reference to skill checks, which off the top of my head I don't know if PRPG changed to have ones always miss.
@Psychic Robot- Sure, say that after playing with a warlock who incurs a penalty to all saves equal to his Cha bonus and Baleful Polymorphs everything.
I'm really just venting on my dislike of a certain players use of the warlock. Not really adding anything constructive I guess, but it makes me feel better.
Yeah, but I basically don't think Touch AC needs to be changed itself.
I don't think Elder Dragons need a massive bonus to their Touch AC, just because they have massive HD. I mean, take a pseudo-stationary blob creature, but Gargantuan with massive HD, why should it get a Touch AC bonus if it's not even really moving?
One thing I'd be sympathetic to is to replace touch AC with a Reflex save, for spells anyway. If a creature has a high Reflex save, why should it be easy to target with ray spells (for instance)?
Or maybe monsters should just have a size penalty to Reflex saves. Something seems a bit odd, anyways...
Actually, I think things are mostly fine the way they are. :-)
I see no need to change this unless you wish to give a wizard and sorcer a better BAB to keep up?
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Yeah, but I basically don't think Touch AC needs to be changed itself.
I don't think Elder Dragons need a massive bonus to their Touch AC, just because they have massive HD. I mean, take a pseudo-stationary blob creature, but Gargantuan with massive HD, why should it get a Touch AC bonus if it's not even really moving? And the Dragon, it's so huge that even if it moves, SOME of it is still in you/your ray's reach, right?
If Touch AC bonuses ARE integrated with Defensive CMB, these bonuses WILL be doubly important to have, though... (well, as important as they were in 3.5)
This comment is ripe. You (I assume) believe fighters should be given enough BAB to actually wound the elder dragon, right...
Same logic. And that logic is D&D.
BAB is a function of AC
BAB is a function of Touch AC
BAB is increases by level
AC is static but highly augmentable
Touch AC is static and is virtually not augmentable
AC should remain the same.
Touch should go up. Like BAB your base line offense this is your base line defense. Both should go up. Again AC should remain unchanged but your touch should increase. I would even be a fan of saying if you touch is higher than your standard AC then you can use your touch (think monk).
The main problem I see is the ridiculously low touch ACs of nearly all monsters. Once you reach 15th+, your Warlock with his infinite touch attack eldritch blasts has little problem dealing with most bad guys. At times it is a good thing, at times it is bad. I would just like to see it actually become contested rather than the only-miss-on-a-one way it is now.
Warlocks were the twinkiest class I have ever seen (I'm sure some can point out other editions/combo's to remind me of twink factor... (or combos like the Scout Dervish) ... not allowed in my games period :P... But you're absolutely right, a Lock makes touch ac pretty much a joke due to their pre-4th edition mindset in making the class have never ending powerful 'at will' powers.... but then, a severly broken class should not cause one to rethink a mechanic that's used... the class needs to be rethunk.
Speaking as a mage player (on the odd time I get to play instead of run) I hit my share of things, especially some of the larger monsters (hard to miss a barn) but I've missed more than my share of trying to scorching ray that damn rogue/high dex monster/ what have you. I mean, 11th lvl wizard, with a 14 dex is a Bab of 7... Big large slow things... I can hit.. anything with dex I have missed far more often.
Weave
The warlock was NOT one of the "twinkiest classes." It's actually fairly well-balanced. 9d6 per round...yeah, that's huge damage. Look out, the fighter can deal out 2d6+15 points of damage per hit without Power Attack, and the rogue can dish out 10d6 damage multiple times in a round. And then there were those ways to circumvent resistance to sneak attack damage...
Yeah, the warlock was broken alright.
You are aware that twink is a derogatory term referring to homosexuals, and therefore insulting to a myriad of people in a myriad of ways, right?
Twink also happens to have another meaning, and it has nothing to do with homosexuals. Much like how one could talk about smoking f@gs in Britain.
I vote we focus less on the choice of words and more on the retarded notion that warlocks are overpowered.
the warlocks blast does not bother me its the incantations and such that bug me.
Here, let me reiterate what I said a while back:
2. Armor Class
Characters now gain half their Character Level as an unnamed bonus to their armor class.
This armor bonus goes towards all armor bonuses. AT, these issues you keep posting on are found everywhere in D&D history. While no body does anything about it, I have detailed what I believe to be a valid fix for the system issue. You seem to be copying what I said.
I think this comes from the way of seeing with AC is. In the beginning of D&D, AC use to represent how hard it was to injure the character, whether he was good at dodging or was wearing heavy armor. Round use to be one minute, you only had 1 or 2 attacks, hp actually represented your ability to avoid the one fatal blow, by luck or dodging or parrying or whatever way that was physically taxing. It was assume that you would be trying to hit many times per round and hitting a few, with the result being the equivalent of one attack per round. Hit point represented your scaling ability to defend yourself, not your ability to take punishment.
This has changed quite a bit in d20 system. Now AC seem to represent more how hard it is to land a blow, an hp seem to be more the actual amount of punishment you can take.
Perhaps you should use an alternative system. Get rid of touch AC, now AC represents how hard it is to connect with attacks; so your touch AC and AC are actually the same thing. It should scale with level (whichever way you prefer), but wearing an armor should reduce your AC instead of increasing it; I suppose an amount equal to the armor check penalty or something similar. In this system armor should offer DR instead, something like DR (armor bonus)/- would seem resonable, or perhaps half of that value. This will suit the view that hp is how much damage you can take before dying.
That sort of system was suggested already in the variant rules of the OGL, or use in variant d20 ruleset (Green Ronin's True20 and Mutant & Mastermind for example, altough the base system substitute wound level to hp, uses two different defense stats to account for how hard you are to hit and how hard you are to injure).
That sort of system was suggested already in the variant rules of the OGL, or use in variant d20 ruleset (Green Ronin's True20 and Mutant & Mastermind for example, altough the base system substitute wound level to hp, uses two different defense stats to account for how hard you are to hit and how hard you are to injure).
Just to nitpick a little -- in Mutants & Masterminds, the Defense bonus is a combination of dodging and resisting attacks, just like in D&D (by default, half is a dodge bonus and half isn't). I don't know about True20, though.
Warlock blasts are laughable from a damage dealing standpoint. 1d6, +1d6 at every odd level until 11, where it scales at every 3rd level. Yes, that's right. It starts scaling slower when enemy HP starts scaling faster. That means a Warlock 15 normally does 7d6 as a standard action. 9d6 is certainly possible, but who cares? 31.5 average at level 15 is nothing.
Average HP you need to chew through: 224.63. Congratulations. You scratch its back.
Now consider, any other party member is doing that much or more with one hit, and likely gets multiple hits. Now maybe if this is a Warlock 11/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3 Binding Naberious to negate the Con damage, we might be starting to get somewhere with 12d6 + whatever from items and such. Add Maximize SLA and the Warlock actually does decent damage 3 times a day. Add Eldritch Glaive and he can use his eldritch blast as a melee reach weapon, thereby attacking more than once a round. Without all that though, even a melee focused character pulling out a longbow probably does better.
wikied it, fair enough, though it is equally derogatory in the same way as referring to a munchkin player. Either way it is suggesting negative traits regarding people who might choose to play that way.You are aware that twink is a derogatory term referring to homosexuals, and therefore insulting to a myriad of people in a myriad of ways, right?Twink also happens to have another meaning, and it has nothing to do with homosexuals. Much like how one could talk about smoking f@gs in Britain.
Yes, and I meant Twink totally in the aspect of munckin players, derogatory and all towards that style of play :P. Gay Straight or otherwise, munchkins (with the exception of the card games) need to be treated like baby seals... beat with a club.
As to the statement of a wand of Scorching ray's being more powerful and useable by various classes than the Warlock. You also have to understand, in order for that to be so, it has to be cast at 11th caster level to be so, and we're talking a $16,500 magic item so they can cast the spell all day (or half cost with a 660xp cost of course) While, no argument, quite helpful and not overly expensive when we're talking higher levels, it's still, if used with impunity(sp?) an expensive habit, unlike the Warlock.
Furthermore, back to some of the other assessments of how armor and to hit scale where touch doesn't scale so much. THat's true enough, more or less, of course, with the exception of upping your dexterity, you really don't scale your to hit with spells like you do with magic weapons (cost to bonus ration for example) .
Now, and I apologize in advance if I missed something, I'm tired after a long night. The valid fix to the system of adding half your level to your armor bonus.. are you insane?
Yes, this does go both ways, both for and against players, but you realize you just made it almost impossible for a lvl 20 wizard to hit a remotely equipped lvl 20 wizard with a touch spell.
Cause at lvl 20, I have a +10 BaB (plus any stats mind you).... I'm suddenly needing a 10, to hit a completely naked, unarmed, unbuffed, 10 dex wizard.... Thrown on the items you would expect a lvl 20 wizard to have, and the chances of hitting them is rather low. Let's think of it in the terms of a Pit Fiend, CR 20, 18 hit dice, now need a 26 touch. Then, when I finally hit 1/4 of the time (slightly more or less for stats) I have to get through a SR 32... which actually turns out to be easier than the hitting part, I at least get to add 20 to the roll (Plus any penetration feats).
Touch AC is almost exclusively utilized by people with poor or mediocre BAB's. Not entirely, there are too many prestige/alternate base classes, etc etc to say otherwise. But if you go by the base classes, that's mostly so.
Now, let me once again aplogize if you took offense to my view on some of the suggestions, as I said, tired and perhaps over-critical after a long night. Though if you took offence to the Twink comment (in reference to munchkins) I have done my job appropriately.
Weave
Firstly: Warlock isn't OGL. Please don't promote Paizo changing rules due to classes they can't even touch. If there is a problem in your campaign with the warlock- change the warlock.
Secondly: Change the warlock. If touch AC's are too problematic for your campaigns involving warlocks then change the "ranged touch attack" language to say "ranged attack" in the Warlock description. Problem solved. Yes, this is a houserule. Houserules are the only -The Only- method we now have for altering non-OGL classes.
As has been already pointed out- most if not all OGL spells that are ranged touch attacks (or just touch attacks) allow for Saves and SR. That's already 3 chances for failure even if the first isn't especially problematic.
At higher levels make sure you are thoroughly reading the monster descriptions. While it is true that most mindless critters have really abysmal touch AC's, most intelligent undead and demons and whatnot (and dragons!) have access to spells, abilities, or items that are NOT taken into account in their descriptions. Dragons can cast mage armor. Most if not all demons and devils have At Will or Constant spell effects that alter their touch AC- and that aren't listed in their stat blocks. (why? i dunno- but go check. They just aren't..)
It is true that someone's Touch Ac is usually much lower than their other defenses but this isn't a bad thing. Every critter (PC's included) need their Achille's Heel.
-S
...Wait, Mage Armor boosts touch AC?
I'm still trying to figure out how doing abysmal damage is in any way a sign that an optimizer is at the helm.
...Wait, Mage Armor boosts touch AC?
I'm still trying to figure out how doing abysmal damage is in any way a sign that an optimizer is at the helm.
Touch AC isn't as much of an issue anymore due to grappling and tripping being based on CMB and not the auto-losses they once were.
So, let's look at it:
Touch AC = AC - armor (4 to 12ish) - shield (1 to 7ish) - natural armor (0 to 5ish), so we can estimate that Touch AC = AC - (5-24ish). That's a pretty big swing. Maybe if one of those AC losses were taken out, we'd feel better...
Perhaps...
The feat Shield Ward from Player's Handbook 2 allows one to add his shield bonus to his rolls to resist grapple, trip, bull rush, and to his Touch AC. Perhaps including a similar feat in Pathfinder would be a good idea, as it's a boon to those fighters who aren't two-handing their weapon, Animated shields aside?
Currently, the shield bonus costs a hand and provides less AC than the armor bonus, which only costs movement; a bit less of a sting. (I am assuming that players choose their PCs' Dex scores to account for what sort of armor they plan to wear.) Perhaps giving the shield bonus the ability to do more than just add to non-touch AC is a good idea here?
-Matt
Movement is a pretty big hit actually. You're already likely slower than the enemy. Do you really want to take 2 rounds to cover 60 feet instead of 1?
Honestly, we should take a queue from 4e and use Reflex instead of Touch. But, of course, backwards compatibility and all. Yuck.
Movement is a pretty big hit actually. You're already likely slower than the enemy. Do you really want to take 2 rounds to cover 60 feet instead of 1?
Not when you've got a reliable fly speed and Boots of Speed, it's not. When a platemail-wearer has a fly speed of 70, while the lightly-armored character has a fly speed of 90, the difference isn't very big.
-Matt
Touch AC isn't as much of an issue anymore due to grappling and tripping being based on CMB and not the auto-losses they once were.So, let's look at it:
Touch AC = AC - armor (4 to 12ish) - shield (1 to 7ish) - natural armor (0 to 5ish), so we can estimate that Touch AC = AC - (5-24ish). That's a pretty big swing. Maybe if one of those AC losses were taken out, we'd feel better...Perhaps...
The feat Shield Ward from Player's Handbook 2 allows one to add his shield bonus to his rolls to resist grapple, trip, bull rush, and to his Touch AC. Perhaps including a similar feat in Pathfinder would be a good idea, as it's a boon to those fighters who aren't two-handing their weapon, Animated shields aside?
Currently, the shield bonus costs a hand and provides less AC than the armor bonus, which only costs movement; a bit less of a sting. (I am assuming that players choose their PCs' Dex scores to account for what sort of armor they plan to wear.) Perhaps giving the shield bonus the ability to do more than just add to non-touch AC is a good idea here?
-Matt
In my home playtest of the Beta I am already suggesting a House Rule of Shield bonus applies to Touch AC, but not to Flat-Footed AC.
CJ
Movement is a pretty big hit actually. You're already likely slower than the enemy. Do you really want to take 2 rounds to cover 60 feet instead of 1?Not when you've got a reliable fly speed and Boots of Speed, it's not. When a platemail-wearer has a fly speed of 70, while the lightly-armored character has a fly speed of 90, the difference isn't very big.
-Matt
Shouldn't that be 60?
Also, Boots of Speed last 10 rounds. Flying? Boots. Hmmm...
Either way, you're still slower (and the later enemies fly that fast, or faster).
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I never understood why a regular touch attack (not a ranged touch) ignore enemy armor but still add strenght bonus. The stronger you are, easier is to touch someone?
Luciopim
For that matter, the stronger you are, the easier it is to hit someone with a sword? It's just the way the system is built. STR for melee, DEX for ranged. Now, if you mean it adds the STR bonus to damage then... you're wrong. :) It doesn't. Unless you're delivering a touch spell with an unarmed strike, in which case you have to hit the ACTUAL AC and not the touch AC anyway.
I never understood why a regular touch attack (not a ranged touch) ignore enemy armor but still add strenght bonus. The stronger you are, easier is to touch someone?
Who do you think swings a fist faster -- you or Mike Tyson? :-)