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Candle of Invocation
Each of these special tapers is dedicated to one of the nine alignments. Simply burning the candle generates a favorable aura for the individual so doing if the candle’s alignment matches that of the character. Characters of the same alignment as the burning candle add a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks while within 30 feet of the flame.A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours.
In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.
Strong conjuration; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, gate, creator must be same alignment as candle created; Price 8,400 gp; Weight ½ lb.
This has a simple fix to the first part (spot the difference);
Candle of Invocation
Each of these special tapers is dedicated to one of the nine alignments. Simply burning the candle generates a favorable aura for the individual so doing if the candle’s alignment matches that of the character. Characters of the same alignment as the burning candle add a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks while within 30 feet of the flame.A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. A cleric can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours.
In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.
Strong conjuration; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, gate, creator must be same alignment as candle created; Price 8,400 gp; Weight ½ lb.
At this point it's still a BBEG slayer that you can buy around level ten - but lacks the UMD exploitation.
So one last change;
Candle of Invocation
Each of these special tapers is dedicated to one of the nine alignments. Simply burning the candle generates a favorable aura for the individual so doing if the candle’s alignment matches that of the character. Characters of the same alignment as the burning candle add a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks while within 30 feet of the flame.A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours.
In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. The summoned creature cannot have hit dice greater than the character using the item. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.
Strong conjuration; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, gate, creator must be same alignment as candle created; Price 8,400 gp; Weight ½ lb.
Good pick up Squirrel, a few tweaks, flavour retained.
Weighting of the extra sentence about summoned creature might require a change to balance it just so.
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What about Paladins, druids, favoured souls, etc?
Do they not get the benefits?
Maybe it could be reworded to state;
"If the user's faith matches that of the candle's creator, and the user already has a divine caster level, then that caster level is increased by +2, for the purposes of spells known, spells prepared, and other variables (range, duration, etc), while the candle is burning."
(So you have to use them up quickly, straight after praying. Useful for healing and buffing, but tricky to use offensively, since you have to travel from your camp, to the enemy location, while protecting the flame).
As for the Gate effect, this should be restricted to an outsider of the same alignment (and allegiance) as the candle's creator.
So what if the PCs find a Candle of Lamashtu? They can't use it to call an ally. It's effectively a 'cursed' item for them.
As for the Gate effect, this should be restricted to an outsider of the same alignment (and allegiance) as the candle's creator.
It is.
So what if the PCs find a Candle of Lamashtu? They can't use it to call an ally. It's effectively a 'cursed' item for them.
Not really, since you can still command whatever creature you call with a Gate spell. A neutral character might not care whether he's bossing around a solar or a balor.
My opinion: remove the Gate option from the Candle of Invocation altogether. And fix the Gate spell, too.
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So what if the PCs find a Candle of Lamashtu? They can't use it to call an ally. It's effectively a 'cursed' item for them.
Not really, since you can still command whatever creature you call with a Gate spell. A neutral character might not care whether he's bossing around a solar or a balor.
That is true. But you don't control any other creature who decides to step through the portal. The calling effect is in addition to the creation of a two-way portal to the target plane, which is visible and accessible to any creature nearby the targetted outsider.
Maybe you can gate a balor, and maybe the balor cannot free himself, but he won't need to, if his mate can step through and free him, by dispelling the effect or destroying the caster.
But why would there be another creature present, I hear you ask?
Because they know the Gate spell exists, and always travel in pairs. Same reason the PCs always cry out "Don't split the party!".
So, the sequence is;
Caster casts Gate.
Balor 1 arrives.
Balor 2 arrives, frees Balor 1.
Balor 1 attacks caster.
Round 2; Caster (if he survives) faces 2 unbound, angry Balors. Plus whatever else stepped through before his next action. A tidal wave of larvae? The balor's three Vrock henchmen, to perform Dance of Ruin on the caster's head?
What the DM needs is a guide to the chances of wandering monsters on the outer planes, and the likelihood they will be curious/vengeful/adventurous enough to jump through the portal for a free trip.
(EDITED, before Hogarth made his next post)
I'm not trying to rain on the OP or his post, by the way;
I do actually agree with Squirreloid.
The Gate spell should allow a save or SR to resist being called, and a further save or SR to resist being controlled. Especially if the XP cost is dropped, since increased GP costs are, IMO, ineffective as a balancing factor.
And 9th level spell effects should not be available to low-mid-level casters.
I just don't think the problem is in PCs using the enemies' captured candles to call and command Balors. I shudder at the thought of them commisioning these items from the good churches, and having Solars/Ghaeles, etc on speed-dial.
Round 2; Caster (if he survives) faces 2 unbound, angry Balors. Plus whatever else stepped through before his next action.
So if I use a Candle of Invocation to summon a solar, I get a second solar on the house? Score! ;-)
Seriously, if you don't want players gating stuff in, just ban the Gate spell.
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Squirreloid,
A rogue using a magical device remains a rogue using a magical device. As the items description specifically says that clerics are the only ones who benefit from the bump to their spell abilities and that this only allows them to memorize extra spells if they cast it before their normal time of spell preperation, it seems obvious from the description that a rogue could use the candle to gate in an entity, but not to memorize spells.
Edit: And how come in all of your examples of unoptimized characters do they always start with an 18 in every ability? Just wondering.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Squirreloid,
A rogue using a magical device remains a rogue using a magical device. As the items description specifically says that clerics are the only ones who benefit from the bump to their spell abilities and that this only allows them to memorize extra spells if they cast it before their normal time of spell preperation, it seems obvious from the description that a rogue could use the candle to gate in an entity, but not to memorize spells.
So we'll just ignore the text that conveniently lets him use the spells that he normally can't? That's the true problematic wording of that part.
Actually, the problem here is that you are conveniently ignoring the text in the SRD where it says:
"A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours."
So our rogue emulates the class feature "spellcasting ability" - when exactly is his "spell preparation time"?
He could, by the literal text, CAST "spells unavailable to him" (which would be all of them) if only he could prepare them, but UMD does not give the ability to PREPARE spells. Since cleric spells must be prepared (including spontaneous swappage for healing spells, which involves sacrificing a prepared spell for a cure, not 'open slot' casting like a sorcerer or favored soul), he can't prepare anything and therefore he cannot cast them.
In order for your case to be true, the UMD skill would have to grant the ability to prepare spells. I'm a rogue, I want to use this wand of cure light wounds, which demands that I emulate a class feature (spellcasting ability) in a class that grants CLW and have the appropriate minimum ability score (or emulate it) of 11. So I emulate class ability "spellcasting, cleric." The wand now pretends that I have that ability and lets me use it. I don't get to prepare CLW or any other spell.
I do the same with the candle. I UMD to tell it I really AM a "spellcaster, cleric" and make the check, so it agrees and lets me cast cleric spells as if 2 levels higher. But, since I lack the ability to prepare cleric spells, it is immaterial that, in theory, I could cast them as a cleric 2 levels higher than I am.
Now if, say, you had a magic item like the 1st ed. hat of difference that let you actually gain class abilities from other classes, now we're talking.
You might also get around it with a feat like Domain Spontaneity, though I'd have to look at the precise wording; my recollection is that it is substitution like spontaneous curing, not open-slot casting, so you're still out of luck cuz you don't have prepared spells to swap out for domain spells.
All of the above stated, the gate app of the spell is pretty broken, especially given that it is CHEAPER than just buying a scroll of gate (8825 vs. 8400 for the candle). Lame.
Sorry, I was assuming the candle *actually worked as advertised*.
Where in the description of the magic item does this line appear?
"A cleric or rogue whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn."
It seems pretty clear that anyone with even a basic grounding in the fundamentals of the English language would realize that the 'he' in the second sentence is referring to the cleric in the first. Nowhere in the description of the item does it indicate any other class would gain the benefits of the spellcasting abilities.
The whole gate thing does seem a little wacky though...
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What about Paladins, druids, favoured souls, etc?
Do they not get the benefits?
Maybe it could be reworded to state;
"If the user's faith matches that of the candle's creator, and the user already has a divine caster level, then that caster level is increased by +2, for the purposes of spells known, spells prepared, and other variables (range, duration, etc), while the candle is burning."
The original made it a cleric item only, but i can see the flaw in that.
Candle of Invocation
Each of these special tapers is dedicated to one of the nine alignments. Simply burning the candle generates a favorable aura for the individual so doing if the candle’s alignment matches that of the character. Characters of the same alignment as the burning candle add a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks while within 30 feet of the flame.A divine spellcaster whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. The divine spellcaster can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours.
In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. The Summoned Creature cannot have a CR higher than the Hit Dice of the summoner. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.
Strong conjuration; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, gate, creator must be same alignment as candle created; Price 8,400 gp; Weight ½ lb.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Sorry, I was assuming the candle *actually worked as advertised*. Because as it stands, the cleric can cast spells normally unavailable to him, but he can't *prepare* them... so he actually can't cast spells normally unavailable to him...Actually, the problem here is that you are conveniently ignoring the text in the SRD where it says:
"A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours."
1. Actually, the candle works precisely as advertised. I have quoted the SRD text.
a. In order for the caster-boosting ability to work, as stipulated in the item description, it must be burned during or just prior to his spell preparation time. A cleric has a spell preparation time. This enables the cleric to, through the magic of the candle, function as 2 levels higher DURING that preparation time. He can thus prepare (during his normal preparation time) and cast (at any time within the next 4 hours, as long as the candle burns) spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level. If you burn it at time that is not your spell preparation time, it does nothing (well, except gate!).
b. In order to use it, the rogue would have to UMD it during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He does not have a spell preparation time and therefore is incapable of using it. Emulating the ability to cast spells with UMD, as already SRD-quoted upthread, does not actually grant the ability. Emulating spellcasting ability does not grant the ability to prepare spells or to have a spell preparation time. It only emulates the ability to cast spells of a certain level and type.
c. Now, that stated, if you were a sorcerer, wizard, or any other character class that does have a spell preparation time (rather than a rogue), then you can skip over this loophole in your logic.
2. Also, note that on a certain level you didn't really go far enough in your explanation of the exploit if you really are a cleric. If in fact the phrase "spells normally unavailable to you" means what you think it means, then a cleric can prepare and cast any spell of any kind from anywhere, not just cleric spells. Wizard spells are spells. Wu Jen spells. Shugenja spells. Paladin spells. Ranger spells. Druid spells. Hexblade spells. Raumathari Battlemage spells. Nar Demonbinder spells. On and on down the list. A cleric with the candle should be able to prepare any of these spells, since they are all normally unavailable to him.
The problem is that pesky contingent clause - to wit: "spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level." Rationality and simple English places a very specific limit on precisely which "spells normally unavailable to him" means - spells that this specific character could cast if her caster level were 2 higher but that are unavailable to her at her current level.
The same would apply to any other caster type who UMD'ed the candle.
3. The candle actually does not augment your CLERIC casting level. It presupposes that you must be a cleric to use it, but it doesn't actually say it gives you cleric caster levels, even though that is an obvious inference to make. Read it again. Remember, we are arguing RAW, not RAI.
"A [user, which is typically a cleric] whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn."
Our rogue friend uses UMD to convince the candle that he is a cleric of the appropriate alignment with cleric spellcasting ability. Let's be generous and waive the requirement that he have a spell preparation time. So now, what does the candle do? Does it give the rogue cleric caster levels? No. It says quite specifically that it allows the rogue to "operate as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day."
It does NOT say it allows him to "operate as if a cleric two levels higher..." Do you see anywhere in the SRD text where it says that you operate as a cleric 2 levels higher? I don't.
So the rogue suddenly operates as if he were 2 levels higher. For preparing spells per day. As a rogue. His spells per day from none to... none. Oops...
Again, we turn to the sorcerer example, and this is a perfect place for an arcane caster (or non-cleric divine caster) to use UMD to adapt the item. A sorcerer could happily UMD it to boost caster level by 2 in all the happy ways the candle works.
If the cleric can prepare those spells, so can the rogue. If he can't, then the cleric doesn't actually gain any extra spells from burning the candle (and you know, I'm fine with that).
You are having a hard time understanding what really is quite simple, which surprises me cuz you are a pretty smart guy with a generally good grasp of the rules.
Cleric - can prepare spells. Can use candle to boost caster level.
Rogue - cannot prepare spells, even with UMD. Therefore cannot meet prerequisite for using caster-level-boosting ability of candle. Even if he could, the candle states that it allows YOU to act as if 2 levels higher for spells per day, not "as a cleric 2 levels higher" for spells per day.
Sorcerer - has a 'spell preparation time' even though he doesn't actually prepare spells. Could UMD the candle into boosting caster level.
The grammar and text of the candle work precisely as stated in the SRD and do not support your exploit.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Actually, the problem here is that you are conveniently ignoring the text in the SRD where it says:
"A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours."
Sorry, I was assuming the candle *actually worked as advertised*. Because as it stands, the cleric can cast spells normally unavailable to him, but he can't *prepare* them... so he actually can't cast spells normally unavailable to him...
If the cleric can prepare those spells, so can the rogue. If he can't, then the cleric doesn't actually gain any extra spells from burning the candle (and you know, I'm fine with that).
PS - A bit of a snark occurred to me.
That is, doesn't it seem a bit ironic that you would say that a candle of invocation doesn't "work as advertised" when it has been ADVERTISED since 1st Edition as a clerical spell level booster? It has never been advertised as anything but that. The SRD starts out by saying "A cleric whose... " How exactly is the candle being advertised as something other than a clerical aid?
It is only through pursuit of rules esoterica and/or 'edge-testing' that alternative uses other than those "advertised" can be imagined and tested. Sometimes those applications work within the rules. Sometimes they don't (like the rogue/UMD exploit you describe). But none of them would qualify as the "advertised" use of an item.
I disagree with Squirreloid's interpretation of the rules as far as rogues go, but the main issue here is that:
1. The wording on the item is poor.
2. Clerics can't prepare higher-level spells, but they can cast them.
3. Wizard + UMD = broken?
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I don't see the confusion over clerics not being able to prepare the higher level spells. The item description says:
[a cleric] operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time.
(bold for emphasis)
Spells per day means how many spells you get per day of each level, hence the cleric now has access to higher level spell slots before he has finished preparing spells, thus he can prepare the higher level spells. See the heading on any of the caster class charts if you are confused.
He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours.
Then he can cast them, for 4 hours after he burns the candle. After that, he loses the extra prepared spells.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I don't see the confusion over clerics not being able to prepare the higher level spells. The item description says:
[a cleric] operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time.(bold for emphasis)
Spells per day means how many spells you get per day of each level, hence the cleric now has access to higher level spell slots before he has finished preparing spells, thus he can prepare the higher level spells. See the heading on any of the caster class charts if you are confused.
Beat me to it. The ability to prepare more spells than normal is subsumed within the ability to "operate as two levels higher." A cleric "operating" at his normal level has a spell preparation time. A cleric "operating as if two levels higher" can use his spell preparation time as if two levels higher.
A rogue with UMD "operating" at his normal level has no spell preparation time and so cannot prepare spells. A rogue with UMD "operating as if two levels higher" still has no spell preparation time and still cannot prepare spells.
He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours.Then he can cast them, for 4 hours after he burns the candle. After that, he loses the extra prepared spells.
Exactly. There are two different sentences here:
#1. The [character lighting the candle, generally a cleric] "operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day."
#2. The [character lighting the candle, generally a cleric] "can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were that higher level."
Our rogue/UMD character who used the candle receives no functional benefit from sentence #1, since operating as two levels higher moves him from preparing no spells to still preparing no spells, which makes sentence #2 moot.
A non-cleric caster, of course, could happily UMD his way into benefiting from the candle.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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My point was mostly that it never says the cleric can *prepare* spells he can't normally cast, only that he can *cast* spells he can't normally cast. So he can cast 5th level spells, but he can't prepare them...?Actually, the problem here is that you are conveniently ignoring the text in the SRD where it says:
"A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours."
Sorry, I was assuming the candle *actually worked as advertised*. Because as it stands, the cleric can cast spells normally unavailable to him, but he can't *prepare* them... so he actually can't cast spells normally unavailable to him...
If the cleric can prepare those spells, so can the rogue. If he can't, then the cleric doesn't actually gain any extra spells from burning the candle (and you know, I'm fine with that).
PS - A bit of a snark occurred to me.
That is, doesn't it seem a bit ironic that you would say that a candle of invocation doesn't "work as advertised" when it has been ADVERTISED since 1st Edition as a clerical spell level booster? It has never been advertised as anything but that. The SRD starts out by saying "A cleric whose... " How exactly is the candle being advertised as something other than a clerical aid?
It is only through pursuit of rules esoterica and/or 'edge-testing' that alternative uses other than those "advertised" can be imagined and tested. Sometimes those applications work within the rules. Sometimes they don't (like the rogue/UMD exploit you describe). But none of them would qualify as the "advertised" use of an item.
Sure it does. The cleric (or other spellcaster with UMD) already has a spell preparation time and can prepare spells. When he lights the candle "just before or during his spell preparation time" THAT IS WHEN HE BEGINS to "operate as if 2 levels higher."
What exactly do you think it is referring to when it says, explicitly, "operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day"? Look at any class table. Look at spells per day. What information is provided to you there? The number of spells of each level that you may prepare.
Is there something that "spells per day" means, other than the number of spells at each level that you may prepare (or have open slot, if you're a sorc/bard/etc.)? If so, please do share.
You are working really hard to prove an exploit that just isn't there.
I don't care to argue intention. I don't know intention, and neither do you, unless you're the person who wrote it originally. All I know is what it actually says, and what it says needs to be changed.
Why aren't you upset, as I am, at the intelligent lumps of wood in Pathfinder, then? The rules say a wizard with the arcane bond can enchant an item at half price -- "enchant" means affect with a spell from the School of Enchantment; all spells of that school are mind-affecting. Therefore, items must all have minds. Obviously, the intention was to be able to "enhance" or "imbue" the item in question, but that's not what's written.
The rules in the Beta are poorly-worded in most cases, not just for the candle of invocation (Cf. many long discussions regarding cleric, wizard, and sorcerer abilities, and "class level" vs. "caster level"). Jason is a genius at class design, but he's not real careful with technical rules language... which is why I'm hoping Monte and Sean proofread the final rules. Pointing out this example is fine, but there are many others that more pressingly need work (dwarves that can drag elephants at a speed of 20 ft., etc.).