We were totally stumped - the listing is rather ambiguous.
It says HotA works "as Mage Hand with the following changes" - but it doesn't specify very well what is changed. I had to make a ruling, but my players weren't really happy with it.
Can HotA attack in the same round it is cast?
Can HotA move 30', or is it limited in the same way Mage Hand is to 15' of movement per round?
Can HotA move further than 30' (if possible since range on Mage Hand is 25' + 5'/2L), just not attack? Or is it limited to 30'?
When concentration is broken, how is the weapon returned? Does it warp back? As written, it can be interpreted that the Hand physically brings the weapon back - does it do so instantly, or is it limited to the the 15' movement per round?
There was MUCH discussion over this last night. I ruled that the HotA can attack the same round it is cast, but can only move 15' per round. I also ruled that the HotA must physically bring the weapon back, as it is limited by Mage Hand mechanics. My wizard was least pleased with that, and is talking about carrying multiple weapons for HotA to use in a chain like fashion.
But how does it REALLY work? What was intended? Looking for any official word here.... :/
A wizard in the group I am running would like these answers as well.
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We were totally stumped - the listing is rather ambiguous.
It says HotA works "as Mage Hand with the following changes" - but it doesn't specify very well what is changed. I had to make a ruling, but my players weren't really happy with it.
Can HotA attack in the same round it is cast?
Can HotA move 30', or is it limited in the same way Mage Hand is to 15' of movement per round?
Can HotA move further than 30' (if possible since range on Mage Hand is 25' + 5'/2L), just not attack? Or is it limited to 30'?
When concentration is broken, how is the weapon returned? Does it warp back? As written, it can be interpreted that the Hand physically brings the weapon back - does it do so instantly, or is it limited to the the 15' movement per round?There was MUCH discussion over this last night. I ruled that the HotA can attack the same round it is cast, but can only move 15' per round. I also ruled that the HotA must physically bring the weapon back, as it is limited by Mage Hand mechanics. My wizard was least pleased with that, and is talking about carrying multiple weapons for HotA to use in a chain like fashion.
The ability specifically states that when the hand is dispelled, it returns to you anything it was holding, so that's not quite the correct ruling in the rules as written. It IS, however, a pretty good house rule for it, lest your Hand of the Apprentice-caster use the ability to grab something out of reach and valuable and just dismiss it to get it back, rather than focus on getting it through obstacles or whatever.
I'd definitely assume it can travel 30 feet in a round, since it can direct an attack against any opponent within 30 feet of you at any time, and it certainly should be able to attack the same round it's cast since Mage Hand can grab the same round it's cast and then push something up to 15 feet. I would limit it to just having a 30 ft radius from you instead of Mage Hand's distance for the same reason.
The ability specifically states that when the hand is dispelled, it returns to you anything it was holding, so that's not quite the correct ruling in the rules as written. It IS, however, a pretty good house rule for it, lest your Hand of the Apprentice-caster use the ability to grab something out of reach and valuable and just dismiss it to get it back, rather than focus on getting it through obstacles or whatever.
I'd definitely assume it can travel 30 feet in a round, since it can direct an attack against any opponent within 30 feet of you at any time, and it certainly should be able to attack the same round it's cast since Mage Hand can grab the same round it's cast and then push something up to 15 feet. I would limit it to just having a 30 ft radius from you instead of Mage Hand's distance for the same reason.
It specifically states:
"You must concentrate on the hand each round or it winks out, returning any item held to you BEFORE it disappears" - hence the confusion. Does it speed the weapon back? Does it move only 15' as Mage Hand is limited to do? It returns it BEFORE it disappears - how?It also states that if functions as Mage Hand - which can move only 15' per move. It does not state that it changes this move speed, only that it can attack within 30'. Mage Hand has a range of 25+ feet. So if HotA can move more than 30', as Mage Hand can, it is specifying that you can only attack in the first 30'.
The HotA MUST grab something on the caster's person - so it can't grab something from somewhere else and warp it to your bag. HotA only works on something you already have possession of.
The Attack on first round problem is that moving the Mage Hand is a movement Action, and casting the spell is a Standard Action - so is the attack part of the move action? Is it a free second standard action? It's not clear. :/
See the confusion and ambiguity here? This is definitely something that needs to be cleared up. :(
Being that it's listed as a supernatural ability, I would think the ability isn't really "cast" but just done. Like an innate ability so it just works in the same round.
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This is how we've been using it and why..
All the other level 1 damage abilities have a RANGE of 30ft... so, so does HotA.
Unlike Mage Hand, HotA says it works with magic items... so, since HotA doesn't say it moves differently, it still requires a move action to move the 15ft.
Finally, it takes a standard action to bring HotA into existence and THEN a move action to direct it at it's target. There's no room for an attack the turn you activate it. Supernatural abilities require a standard action unless they say otherwise, so there's no getting around it.
Any other interpretations out there? In the absence of any official word so far, I'm curious as to how people are using this. We got to see it for the first time "in action" yesterday. It definitely hits harder than the usual 1L 30ft ray abilities. Going off the INT modifier is a pretty big deal, especially on the damage. I definitely think having it move 30' in a round is too much.
But remember, the rays get more powerful as you level up, HotA gets a much smaller bonus as your Int goes up, which also takes more time.
However, in this case, the wizard can upgrade the weapon at almost any time, regardless of level. +1 Keen Rapier - that's a formidable weapon that can be used. The scaling is in the equipment.
I'm not saying this ability is broken - but it's just really unclear what was intended, and can easily be interpreted to be quite powerful. It's also a valid question as to whether weapon feats can be applied through the HotA.
I'd be a pissed off rogue if the wizard was hording a +1 keen rapier when he has better spells to cast (by the time a wizard could make such a rapier or the party could get it as loot.)
More of a tangential point.
#1 Rogue in party is a halfling - rapier is the wrong size.
#2 HotA is a supernatural ability with no usage limit - so even when the wizard is out of spells, he can use it. That's what makes this an important discussion. "Having better spells" - yes, until he runs out.
Since this is a beta, I'm just saying this ability needs to be looked at, the text clarified.
In the meantime I was also wondering how people out there were handling it.
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This is how we've been using it and why..
All the other level 1 damage abilities have a RANGE of 30ft... so, so does HotA.
Unlike Mage Hand, HotA says it works with magic items... so, since HotA doesn't say it moves differently, it still requires a move action to move the 15ft.
Finally, it takes a standard action to bring HotA into existence and THEN a move action to direct it at it's target. There's no room for an attack the turn you activate it. Supernatural abilities require a standard action unless they say otherwise, so there's no getting around it.
OK not read everything after this, as I had a comment on this.. so forgive me if this is already covered.
If you summon the HotA any where within 30 feet of you then you don't need to direct it using a move action and can use a standard action to attack with it.
And it seems to me the best use of such a spell is hoisting the barmaid's skirt. :)
OK not read everything after this, as I had a comment on this.. so forgive me if this is already covered.If you summon the HotA any where within 30 feet of you then you don't need to direct it using a move action and can use a standard action to attack with it.
And it seems to me the best use of such a spell is hoisting the barmaid's skirt. :)
You can do that with Mage Hand. HotA is useful because it specifically can use a weapon and attack. In the description, it says it must physically draw the weapon from your person. So you can't summon it 30' away and attack, it won't have a weapon.
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You can do that with Mage Hand. HotA is useful because it specifically can use a weapon and attack. In the description, it says it must physically draw the weapon from your person. So you can't summon it 30' away and attack, it won't have a weapon.
OK not read everything after this, as I had a comment on this.. so forgive me if this is already covered.If you summon the HotA any where within 30 feet of you then you don't need to direct it using a move action and can use a standard action to attack with it.
And it seems to me the best use of such a spell is hoisting the barmaid's skirt. :)
But you could lift the barmaid's skirt! That is the important part.
Ok I am at work so do not have access to anything but want to ask anyway... Does HotA REQUIRE a weapon? Could it be used unarmed?
So essentially this spell requires 1) an action to prepare the weapon for the HotA, 2) an Action to summon the Hand during which it takes the prepared weapon, 3) an action to move the hand to its target, and finally 4) an action to make its attack. That is ridiculous.
I will post the exact text:
------
Hand of the Apprentice (Su): As a standard action, you
can summon a ghostly hand to do your bidding.
This functions like mage hand, with the following
changes. When summoned, the hand can draw a
weapon (including a magic weapon) on your person
as a free action, so long as you are proficient in it.
The hand can be directed to make a single attack
against a foe within 30 feet, using your base attack
bonus, plus your Intelligence modifier on both
attack and damage rolls. The hand does not threaten
foes and does not make attacks of opportunity. You
must concentrate on the hand each round or it winks out, returning any item held to you before
it disappears.
------
And the text for Mage Hand, since HotA works as Mage Hand:
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Mage Hand
School transmutation; Level bard 0, sorcerer/wizard 0
casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
efect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lb.
Duration Concentration
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
description
You point your finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from
a distance. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet
in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between you and
the object ever exceeds the spell’s range.
---------
Refer back to the previous posts in this thread (especially the first one I posted) to see some of the issues/ambiguities.
While it is pretty ambiguous I don't think it is nearly as bad as it seems. Taking the rules that are out there already and use them as foundation here's what I had come up with about the HotA and how I plan to use it with our gaming group:
Hand of the Apprentice (Su): As a standard action, you
can summon a ghostly hand to do your bidding.
This functions like mage hand, with the following
changes. When summoned, the hand can draw a
weapon (including a magic weapon) on your person
as a free action, so long as you are proficient in it.
So as a standard action you cast and arm the HotA (something you normally wouldn't be able to do with mage hand spell - unattended is unattended, even if it is your stuff which happens to be hanging on your belt), keeping you from having to spend a standard or move equivalent to ready the weapon and dropping it as a free action before using HotA.
The hand can be directed to make a single attack
against a foe within 30 feet, using your base attack
bonus, plus your Intelligence modifier on both
attack and damage rolls.
Ok the 30' thing, with the close range of mage hand it kind of complicates things, but if it acts just like a regular mage hand spell outside the 30' range it doesn't really matter. We are mostly concerned with inside that range for the attacks. However I would like to note that HotA can only grab magical items from your person, no using it to grab an unconscious baddies magical weapon now that they are down, and sending your magic item 35' away is probably a bad idea as I'd say as soon as you pass the 30' point it would drop as mage hand cannot hold magical weapons [All in all I'd really just say it was implied the range is 30' flat and that is it, no worrying - otherwise you have a 25' range mage hand/HotA at 1st level and you couldn't make attacks at 30' which I personally don't think was the intent].
Also considering how touch attack spells are set up; you can cast the spell, move up to your move equivalent distance and then make the attack the same round. For me I don't see the problem with someone using HotA by using the ability (standard action/cast), arming it with a proficient weapon (free action) and then sending the HotA up to 15' (move action) then making the single attack (completing the standard action). If they are further than 15' away, lets say 30', you would have to wait until the following round, concentrate on the spell so it doesn't go away(standard action/cast) move the last 15' (move action) and then finish your round (and the standard action) with an attack by the HotA. It is kinda weird to be splitting up the standard action, but by using the same mechanic as the touch spells it works out pretty much the same way.
The hand does not threaten foes and does not make attacks of opportunity. You must concentrate on the hand each round or it winks out, returning any item held to you before it disappears.
I don't think anyone is confused on this, you stop concentrating you get your item back. Someone interrupts you/forces you to lose concentration or a dispel or antimagic field, what ever you had in the HotA drops where it was. Another thing to note is that as HotA cannot make attacks of opportunity be wary of someone disarming, sundering, bull rushing the weapon out of range, or grappling the weapon. Anyone can do it (without the feat as there will be no AoO) and your CMB is generally going to be low as a straight caster (your BAB and your strength modifier, not your intelligence, as well as your size modifier). Also it would probably be a bad idea to use HotA with your bonded item (which seems like a good idea at first, as it will be one of the first masterwork items you'll have) because if something happens (see above) good luck casting spells as the item isn't "worn or in hand" while HotA is wielding it, in someone else's hand, or laying somewhere on the battlefield. Probably one of the reasons they made sure the item was returned to you if you actively cease concentrating on HotA no matter how far away it was, they figured people were going to be using that freebie masterwork weapon from arcane bond.
{Can HotA attack in the same round it is cast?}
Making an attack is a standard action. Using a Su ability is a standard action. So unless you have two standard actions in a round, no.
{Can HotA move 30', or is it limited in the same way Mage Hand is to 15' of movement per round?}
HOTA doesn't say it moves any faster than MH, so you could move it up to 15 ft. as a move action, then have it attack as a standard action. If your opponent is more than 15 ft. away, it'll take a move action to move it 15 ft., a standard action to move it another 15 ft. (as you can use your standard as a move), and next round if it's still in range you can take a swing.
{Can HotA move further than 30' (if possible since range on Mage Hand is 25' + 5'/2L), just not attack? Or is it limited to 30'?}
I think it's a reasonable interpretation to say that the 30 ft. range only applies to using it to make attacks, but you can exceed that range (as per MH) for non-attack purposes.
{When concentration is broken, how is the weapon returned? Does it warp back? As written, it can be interpreted that the Hand physically brings the weapon back - does it do so instantly, or is it limited to the the 15' movement per round?}
Unclear. I am uncomfortable giving a CL1 effect the ability to teleport items, so I'd rule that it physically brings the weapon back to you, and can move up to 15 ft. toward the caster if concentration ends, but if it is beyond 15 ft. then it won't come all the way back to you.
Jason's actual intent will have to wait until next week when he returns and can get caught up on the boards.
Awesome - Thanks so much for the interpretation Sean! I await Jason's thoughts if he has anything to add. :)
{Can HotA attack in the same round it is cast?}
Making an attack is a standard action. Using a Su ability is a standard action. So unless you have two standard actions in a round, no.
{Can HotA move 30', or is it limited in the same way Mage Hand is to 15' of movement per round?}
HOTA doesn't say it moves any faster than MH, so you could move it up to 15 ft. as a move action, then have it attack as a standard action. If your opponent is more than 15 ft. away, it'll take a move action to move it 15 ft., a standard action to move it another 15 ft. (as you can use your standard as a move), and next round if it's still in range you can take a swing.
{Can HotA move further than 30' (if possible since range on Mage Hand is 25' + 5'/2L), just not attack? Or is it limited to 30'?}
I think it's a reasonable interpretation to say that the 30 ft. range only applies to using it to make attacks, but you can exceed that range (as per MH) for non-attack purposes.
{When concentration is broken, how is the weapon returned? Does it warp back? As written, it can be interpreted that the Hand physically brings the weapon back - does it do so instantly, or is it limited to the the 15' movement per round?}
Unclear. I am uncomfortable giving a CL1 effect the ability to teleport items, so I'd rule that it physically brings the weapon back to you, and can move up to 15 ft. toward the caster if concentration ends, but if it is beyond 15 ft. then it won't come all the way back to you.
Jason's actual intent will have to wait until next week when he returns and can get caught up on the boards.
The wizard in my group is being a nitpicker. So I want this made absolutely clear.
Round 1:
Standard action, call HotA and have it draw weapon.
Move action, move the HotA up to 15'
Subsequent rounds:
Move action, move the HotA
Standard action, concentrate and attack.
End:
Concentration broken, HotA moves 15' per round back to the caster to return weapon.
He is reading the rules very literally and is claiming that the spell is useless because Maintaining Concentration is a standard action, leaving no room for the attack.
I say the Concentration is to maintain the spell effects, one of which is existence and the other is the attack, so it's all wrapped together.
The only other way to read it is that Concentrating is a standard action, and the attack is part of the move action - but that means it should be able to attack round 1.
Additionally, I want to know if the intention is for HotA to take as many 15' rounds as it needs to return the item, since it specifically states it returns the item - so that means it does NOT just drop the item to the ground after concentration is broken and it moves the first 15'.
... and now we're at the point where we'll need Jason to explain his intent. :)
If it does actually require the wizard to move the weapon at 15 feet /round to attack foes I really can’t see this ability actually being used. It just wouldn’t make any sense to give up all movement and spells for two or more rounds just to get a swing with a sword. Maybe at 1st level when you're out of spells – probably not at 2nd, and no way after that. Even then, at 1st level a wizard doesn’t have the hit points or AC to risk getting that close to an opponent while giving up his ability to move at the same time. Why would he choose to do that when he could remain safe and use a crossbow or a bow (if you're an elf) at 100+ feet?
If this is the way it works, then this ability in practice will probably just become an at-will mage hand. Neat, but not very compelling when compared against the other specialist abilities; especially when you consider that as a universalist, if you don't spend a feat on a meta magic feat, you'll also lose the use of your second specialist power, which requires that you know a meta-magic feat to be used. So, the universalist becomes a pretty unattractive option to play. Maybe that's the idea?
I would really like an official answer on these questions also. With the rules that have been proposed, the ability is pretty ho-hum. Compared to the ranged touch attack abilities of some of the specialists, it seems pretty worthless as an offensive ability. It would be like requiring the conjurer to spend a standard action to create the glob of acid and another standard action to throw it, only being able to make one attack every other round.
I'd wager the intent was probably to allow the mage to attack with light weapons (not longswords, which do fall under the weight limit) 30' away in one round. But the way it's worded, that's not really a solid interpretation.
I have to disagree with Feedbag and Blackwell though. I think this is an incredibly powerful ability, especially at low levels. The Wizard can engage in melee attacks from 30' away. And, since it's a wizard, lets assume an INT of around 18. That's +4 to hit, and +4 damage. That's about as good as some level 1 fighters - with no way for the monster to retaliate directly. Later on it's simply a way for the wizard to contribute after spells run out, but at 1st and 2nd level, it is definitely a top option.
My opinion is that the INT bonus on the to-hit is fine, since it gets outscaled pretty quickly, but the INT bonus to damage is over the top and unnecessary. I think base damage from the weapon is sufficient.
I'd wager the intent was probably to allow the mage to attack with light weapons (not longswords, which do fall under the weight limit) 30' away in one round. But the way it's worded, that's not really a solid interpretation.
I have to disagree with Feedbag and Blackwell though. I think this is an incredibly powerful ability, especially at low levels. The Wizard can engage in melee attacks from 30' away. And, since it's a wizard, lets assume an INT of around 18. That's +4 to hit, and +4 damage. That's about as good as some level 1 fighters - with no way for the monster to retaliate directly. Later on it's simply a way for the wizard to contribute after spells run out, but at 1st and 2nd level, it is definitely a top option.
My opinion is that the INT bonus on the to-hit is fine, since it gets outscaled pretty quickly, but the INT bonus to damage is over the top and unnecessary. I think base damage from the weapon is sufficient.
I agree that its a cool ability *if* it allows the attack up to 30' on the same round just using your standard action. Otherwise, having to use both your standard and move actions just to get the weapon to move 15' makes it not worth using. I'd rather just shoot my bow twice in that time. True, I wouldn't get the Int bonus to attack and damage, but I would get my Dex bonus as well as getting two chances to hit - and I could do it from 100+ feet away while moving around.
I agree that its a cool ability *if* it allows the attack up to 30' on the same round just using your standard action. Otherwise, having to use both your standard and move actions just to get the weapon to move 15' makes it not worth using. I'd rather just shoot my bow twice in that time. True, I wouldn't get the Int bonus to attack and damage, but I would get my Dex bonus as well as getting two chances to hit - and I could do it from 100+ feet away while moving around.
And that's fine, but in a dungeon, not many rooms are 100 ft big, there's a -4 for shooting into melee, and a wizard's dex is likely lower than his INT. I'd rather have the 8 point swing in to-hit (-4 firing into melee vs. +4 from 30ft away with a melee attack). 8 point difference is huge. I'll take one less chance to hit all at +4 than one more all at -4.
And that's fine, but in a dungeon, not many rooms are 100 ft big, there's a -4 for shooting into melee, and a wizard's dex is likely lower than his INT. I'd rather have the 8 point swing in to-hit (-4 firing into melee vs. +4 from 30ft away with a melee attack). 8 point difference is huge. I'll take one less chance to hit all at +4 than one more all at -4.I agree that its a cool ability *if* it allows the attack up to 30' on the same round just using your standard action. Otherwise, having to use both your standard and move actions just to get the weapon to move 15' makes it not worth using. I'd rather just shoot my bow twice in that time. True, I wouldn't get the Int bonus to attack and damage, but I would get my Dex bonus as well as getting two chances to hit - and I could do it from 100+ feet away while moving around.
Agreed. It definitely depends on the scenerio.
... and now we're at the point where we'll need Jason to explain his intent. :)Any ETA on this?
My fear is that he won't address it until we get to the Magic section of the beta forums. Which would be unfortunate, because at that point he'll be asking for suggestions/improvements, and to give those, we need to playtest first. So I'm hoping he addresses it soon.
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OK I have read, reread and read again the two spells.
Let's say we have a 10th level wizard casting.
Round 1 You caste the spell and MotA appears and can draw a weapon, magical or mundane from your person. It can then move up to 15 feet toward a target.
Round 2 it can move an additional 15 feet and then make an attack.
Round 3 it can now move an additional 15 feet (due to caster level it can go as far as 50 feet away) and a fighter can take the weapon if he wanted to. The spells describe it as propelling or moving, so it would seem logical that an item could be taken.
Round 4 Now, assuming the fighter did not take the item the wizard decides to move the item a bit further. He intends to move the item to the cleric who is 60 feet away, having misjudged the distance. This causes the spell to end, or to wink out.
Now the verbage indicates that the spell ends when the distance or concetration components of the spell fail. It does not say that the spell ends a few rounds later after returning the item to you. I can only believe, based upon verbage, that the HotA ends immediately, essentially popping back that relatively short distance as a free action and replacing that item as a free action and then just disappearing.
Now you will note the all important fact that the wizard failed to use the spell to its best effect by lifting the barmaid's skirt. :)
1. It's been stated that an attack by the HotA is a standard action.
2. Casting a spell, Using a Su Ability, or Concentrating to maintain a spell are considered standard actions.
3. HotA may never attack.
OK I have read, reread and read again the two spells.
Let's say we have a 10th level wizard casting.
Round 1 You caste the spell and MotA appears and can draw a weapon, magical or mundane from your person. It can then move up to 15 feet toward a target.
Are you of the opinion that you may make an attack round 1, or no?
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We were totally stumped - the listing is rather ambiguous.
It says HotA works "as Mage Hand with the following changes" - but it doesn't specify very well what is changed. I had to make a ruling, but my players weren't really happy with it.
Can HotA attack in the same round it is cast?
Can HotA move 30', or is it limited in the same way Mage Hand is to 15' of movement per round?
With HotA, I ran into this in literally the first round of the first combat in the first game I GM'd.
In a surprise round, no less. :)
The way I ruled it was that the Hand can appear anywhere within 30', however it has to draw the weapon from the caster so doing so is almost pointless. -Edit Suggestion: just make the text show clearly that the hand always appears adjacent to the caster.
I would not let it attack immediately for balance reasons. As Mr. Reynolds points out, it needs a standard action to attack.
So 1st round, hand appears and draws a weapon for free.
2nd round, it can move and attack OR simply move OR simply attack if within reach.
As I explained to the cleric, you want that extra round for the fighter/meat shield to be between you and the target before you're hitting it anyway. ;)
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Well, it doesn't make any sense at all to figure that if you are Concentrating or casting the spell, that HotA cannot attack in the same round. The Hand is attacking, not the caster. Part of concentrating on the spell would include directing it to attack.
And on 3 above, that is correct the Hand can never attack because it has moved beyond 30 feet. But someone can take the weapon or item.
The Hand can attack in the round it is cast. The wizard cannot cast the spell and then attack with his crossbow. He casts the spell and the Hand attacks. Compare to a ranged touch attack spell. The caster creates the spell. Part of the spell is the attack. The attacker does not create the spell, then next round he attacks with the spell. Same here.
So, if I had an opponent 10 feet away, I can cast HotA and have it draw the +5 dagger I am carrying on behalf of the Fighter (since I have proficiency in dagger)as a free action. I can move the spell up to 15 feet and have it attack.
Why? Because this is essentially part of casting the spell. The more I think about it, the more I think that moving and attacking are just part of the standard action of concentrating on the spell. I think it is being over anylized. Think of it instead like other spells.
Magic Missile does not require an action to hit with each missle. A touch attack spell does not require an extra action to make the attack. In fact, I cannot think of a single spell that operates like that. Sure, one may exist, but I don't recall one- and it would be spelled out in detail in the spell.
So let me revise my list of events here.
Level 10 Wizard
Round 1: I cast HotA. It appears and draws the +5 dagger. It moves 10 feet to engage the orc in the tavern and attacks. I back up 10 feet as a move action. Total distance of seperation is 20 feet.
Round 2: Concentrating, I move the Hand 15 feet forward to be beside the Fighter. Even though the Hand is next to another Orc, it cannot attack since it beyond the attacking distance. I back up 5 feet with a five foot step. And notice a cute barmaid. Total distance is now 40 feet.
Round 3: The Fighter plans on taking the dagger but moves after me. Before I go a big Orc comes at me. I back up 15 feet. The Hand instantly appears by my side, returns the dagger to my pocket and disappears as I exceeded the spells maximum distance. The Fighter reaches for the Dagger and is PISSED.
Round 4: Lift the barmaid's skirt myself, which prompts an attack of opportunity from the barmaid. The AOO succeeds and knocks me out since I am a wizard and have no HP. The Orc laughs at me and says in broken common "He funny."
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We were totally stumped - the listing is rather ambiguous.
It says HotA works "as Mage Hand with the following changes" - but it doesn't specify very well what is changed. I had to make a ruling, but my players weren't really happy with it.
Can HotA attack in the same round it is cast?
Can HotA move 30', or is it limited in the same way Mage Hand is to 15' of movement per round?
With HotA, I ran into this in literally the first round of the first combat in the first game I GM'd.
In a surprise round, no less. :)
The way I ruled it was that the Hand can appear anywhere within 30', however it has to draw the weapon from the caster so doing so is almost pointless. -Edit Suggestion: just make the text show clearly that the hand always appears adjacent to the caster.
I would not let it attack immediately for balance reasons. As Mr. Reynolds points out, it needs a standard action to attack.
So 1st round, hand appears and draws a weapon for free.
2nd round, it can move and attack OR simply move OR simply attack if within reach.
As I explained to the cleric, you want that extra round for the fighter/meat shield to be between you and the target before you're hitting it anyway. ;)
Again I am wondering why the spell itself needs a standard action to attack. When a druid sicks his animal companion on someone it doesn't use the druids actions for the attack. When a wizard casts magic Missle it does not need an action for every missle to attack. For a touch spell it does not require the casting of the spell and then an additional action to make the touch attack.
Why is this spell seperated from all other spells in the game with special more limiting rules?
1. It's been stated that an attack by the HotA is a standard action.
2. Casting a spell, Using a Su Ability, or Concentrating to maintain a spell are considered standard actions.
3. HotA may never attack.
That came out wrong, let me clarify.
IF the very act of attacking with HotA is considered a standard action, HotA can never attack. Personally, I feel that the act of casting the spell allows for both movement and attack the round it is cast, and each subsequent round in which the wizard successfully concentrates.
The next question is how the HotA acts when it "winks" out. Personally, I think it should immediately return the weapon instead of slowly moving back per turn to return it.
Well this is at the point where the RAW for HotA is pretty much not worth even trying to parse out, word for word. It's clearly not possible, it's too ambiguous.
So the next step is, until we hear from Jason, to decide what HotA should be doing. (And I mean every DM in his/her campaign will have to decide)
Can it move and attack 1st round? Just move? Not move or attack?
How does the weapon return at the end of the spell?
Should the INT bonus apply to damage? (obviously a decision to part from one of the few specific points in the rules, but it's worth considering)
Those are the biggest questions. I think no one denies that it should be able to move and attack during the concentrating turns. It's the initial turn that's way up in the air.
Many other 1st level abilities are 30' rays, so they "move and attack" in the round they are cast. And they're touch attacks. So the idea is to sorta match that level of power in the HotA, IMO.
I think the HotA should be rewritten to:
Move only (15') in the round it is summoned, if no move action has been taken. May not attack.
Move 15' in each subsequent round. Attack in each subsequent round.
INT modifier is OK for to-hit, but I think way too much for damage. So no INT modifier on damage.
That's my opinion as to the "fair" design of the spell, in trying to balance it against other 1st level abilities. Of course I will defer to Jason Bulmahn when we hear from him. :)
For a touch spell it does not require the casting of the spell and then an additional action to make the touch attack.
This is my main sticking point for the ability and those who don't want to allow the ability to make attacks within 30'. For those same people, do you require a wizard to spend one round casting chill touch and the next round they can make an attack? My understanding was that the touch attack was part of the spellcasting, or could be held back to use in a subsequent round.
What if you already had a spectral hand up and running and then wanted to cast chill touch? Can you channel it through your spectral hand on the same round you cast, or do you have to wait until the next round since you spend a standard action casting the spell in the first place?
Why is this spell seperated from all other spells in the game with special more limiting rules?
Well, there are many spells that increase in power/usefulness the longer you concentrate. This would be in that vein. Not so useful the round you cast it, but much more useful as you troop it out there.
What if you already had a spectral hand up and running and then wanted to cast chill touch? Can you channel it through your spectral hand on the same round you cast, or do you have to wait until the next round since you spend a standard action casting the spell in the first place?
But it took you one round to cast the spectral hand - and then a 2nd round to actually attack through it.
But it took you one round to cast the spectral hand - and then a 2nd round to actually attack through it.What if you already had a spectral hand up and running and then wanted to cast chill touch? Can you channel it through your spectral hand on the same round you cast, or do you have to wait until the next round since you spend a standard action casting the spell in the first place?
Ah, but you made that attack with the chill hand spell, the same round that you cast the spell. The Spectral hand was simply a "conduit" for the touch attack....
Ah, but you made that attack with the chill hand spell, the same round that you cast the spell. The Spectral hand was simply a "conduit" for the touch attack....
And you couldn't have used Chill Hand at range without casting Spectral Hand first.
You know, I'm wishing it was actually worded like the (obviously higher level) telekenesis spell, which mentions that you get one attack per round with a held object, above and beyond any moving or concentrating.
And you couldn't have used Chill Hand at range without casting Spectral Hand first.
Ah, but you made that attack with the chill hand spell, the same round that you cast the spell. The Spectral hand was simply a "conduit" for the touch attack....
Chill hand is "arming" Spectral Hand. HotA comes into play armed.
If you cast Spectral Hand, then Swiftcast Chill Hand, could you attack with it the first round?
Chill hand is "arming" Spectral Hand. HotA comes into play armed.If you cast Spectral Hand, then Swiftcast Chill Hand, could you attack with it the first round?
Which you can't do at L1. So in terms of balance, at L1, sometimes it takes 2 rounds to do something.
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Again I am wondering why the spell itself needs a standard action to attack. When a druid sicks his animal companion on someone it doesn't use the druids actions for the attack. When a wizard casts magic Missile it does not need an action for every missile to attack. For a touch spell it does not require the casting of the spell and then an additional action to make the touch attack.
Why is this spell separated from all other spells in the game with special more limiting rules?
It is not - I believe the issue is you're trying to liken it erroneously to something that has free will (animal comp.) or separate/personal locomotion (magic missile) from something that is being controlled like a puppet.
The animal companion gets its own set of moves because it is a living creature. It has its own standard action to use for an attack - having it go on the Druids action just makes it easier for people to keep track of. The magic missile is targeted from creation and only has one outcome which it does automatically.
HotA does nothing unless concentrated on, which means you're using it as an extension of your body and it is not animated independently of the caster. The caster has to sink their own standard action making it attack - they are treated as the same action and you only get one of those a round. If the act of bringing it into existance takes the one standard the caster has, you have to wait until a time when you have another standard to use for an attack - hence the next round.