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Genuine question: Why would a good party use planar bind on a theoritical friend instead of Planar Ally?Because the Wizard wants to play a character who conjures and deals with outerplanar beings. And Planar Ally isn't on his spell list? Its a common fantasy archetype after all.
Gotcha. I was thinking of it from a party standpoint, not an individual PC standpoint.
It would help some. But Everburning Torch the spell creates the magical item. He's not *crafting* them.
Oh, right, continual flame on an ordinary torch. Sorry, forgot.
Still, it feels like whatever solution taken to solve that problem... should have a light touch when it comes to Spell Like Abilities needing Material Components.
Otherwise we might be wondering where the Lantern Archon carries his ruby dust, and we have a Pit Fiend decked out like a spice rack so he can use the abilities he has by supernature.
Call me kooky, but I'd rather see the Pit Fiends naked than dressed like Miallee. n.-
Grant you, Eschew Materials is a way around it for SLA with cheap components, but I'd be giving it to every monster that I think looks silly slung over with component pouches.
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Heh, Squirreloid. You have basically convinced me the spell does not really appear that broken. The PC has to jump through so many hoops game wise... by the time they have lived long enough to summon that Pit Fiend if they can manage to pull it off, they deserve it.
The only way its ever going to be as easy as you make it out to be is if you create your character at just that level for a one shot. And if you waste your one shots on this sort of gaming then have at it. Why ruin your fun. :)
The pit fiend example isn't needed to show it's broken. Binding a lowly lantern archon is broken. The Lantern Archon (as well as many other celestial outsiders) has the at will spell like ability of continual flame. As has been mentioned in the efreeti/wish usage of binding, SLAs don't require material components, so the archon (CR 2, HD 1) can cast this every round all day long. Each casting of the spell can be used to create an everburning torch, which sells for 110 gp. Even using the 50% sale rule, that's 55 gp. You could easily bind the poor little glowing ball of light to cast it non-stop for days and churn out 14,400 everburning torches per day, which would then sell at 792,000 gp per day. Since you could bind one of these at 9th level, or make an ally of one at 7th level, that would be slightly out of balance with the suggested character wealth.
Unfortunately, none of the proposals yet would put a lantern archon out of reach. Somehow the binding spells or changes to monsters, or changes to SLAs in general need to adress the issue of material components.
Arguing for infinite wealth with item pricing using spell-like abilities is a fallacy, because item prices are based on material components, and the assumption that a caster is using up personal resources and thus their caster level is factored into the item price.
Since the lantern archon is expending no resources, and their spell component cost is 0, an everburning torch produced by them should in fact cost the same as a normal torch. This is a problem with item pricing and spell-like abilities, not the lantern archon.
And with PCs getting at-will abilities, this needs to be addressed in PRPG.
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Not acceptable at 11th level:
Planar Binding a Ghaele Eladrin and bargaining for its services. No, I don't care what you pay or agree to. Nothing, not even your character being erased from existence for the duration of the agreement, can possibly justify such an occurrence. I don't care if you literally set your character sheet on fire. This is too good:
10HD, CR 13
65hp (15 less than a fighter with the same constitution on average at level 11, but it doesn't care because it has DR 10/the monster doesn't have it)Mv 50', fly 150' perfect (!)
+4 Holy Greatsword as gear
BAB +10 (1 less than a fighter)
SA: Spell-likes, Spells, Gaze
SQ: Darkvision 60', DR 10/evil and cold iron, IMM: Elec + Petrification, LLV, Res Cold/Fire 10, SR28, Tongues, Protective Aura (+4 Res to Saves and Defl to AC vs. evil creatures, + magic circle and lesser globe of invulnerability)Spell-likes: Includes colorspray, charm monster, greater invisibility, greater teleport (self only), hold monster, and see invisible. At Will.
1/day Prismatic Spray and *Wall of Force*!!!
Spells: As a 14th (!!!) level cleric
Seriously, its better than the party *cleric*, much less any 3 fighters of level 11 combined. And then you get to cast buff spells on it. The game cries.
Well, since you brought it up, the game does not cry. As a 14th level cleric, the Ghaele has more than enough spell resources at its fingertips to eventually escape.
I need to ask, what exactly are you getting these creatures to do for you that makes it so broken?
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Ok, this is a list of every bindable creature in the SRD I can find. I've also included Gateable outsiders and elementals. I'm ignoring half-celestial, half-fiend, celestial creature, and fiendish creature templates (which means anything is available as an outsider...).
Heh, you missed noble djinni (10 HD, CR 8). Good list though.
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By the reasoning above, bards are clearly a munchkin class.
At 10th level, your average bard, with his quick wit and tongue, upon being granted access to see his royal highness, Gustaf the Good, is going to ask the king to send his entire army to help wipe out the small orc tribe in the hills and there is no good reason for the king to refuse, especially as your average bard has clearly maxed out his diplomacy, has twinked his charisma to all get out and might even ply the king with some mind altering music.
That is a total of 2000 1st level soldiers. They are led by 100 2nd level sargents and 20 5th level Captains.
There is no way that one bard at 10th level should be able to ask and request that sort of power.
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By the reasoning above, bards are clearly a munchkin class.
At 10th level, your average bard, with his quick wit and tongue, upon being granted access to see his royal highness, Gustaf the Good, is going to ask the king to send his entire army to help wipe out the small orc tribe in the hills and there is no good reason for the king to refuse, especially as your average bard has clearly maxed out his diplomacy, has twinked his charisma to all get out and might even ply the king with some mind altering music.
That is a total of 2000 1st level soldiers. They are led by 100 2nd level sargents and 20 5th level Captains.
There is no way that one bard at 10th level should be able to ask and request that sort of power.
So there's no way a 11th level wizard should be able to call a Ghaele at all. I'm glad we're in agreement.
The ability to call a creature should also correspond to the possibility said creature will say 'yes'. Otherwise the spell is implicitly lying to you when it says you get to bargain for the creature. If the answer is always 'no', there's really no bargaining going on.
No. We are not in agreement,
The ability to talk to any creature has no relationship at all to the likelyhood that the creature will say yes. An audience with the king and a smooth tongue does not guarantee an army at your fingertips. A meeting with an outsider and a worthy cause does not guarantee assistance.
In both cases there is an arbiter that you seem to be forgetting. The DM.
The DM in all cases has the last word on whether the creature says yes or no.
And the DM is under no obligation to explain the whys or wherefores of the creatures refusal.
Now in fairness, I think all reasonable requests should be given due consideration. But if the DM feels that a particular request will unbalance his story, the creature called should say, in divine or diabolical tones - "I am forbidden by the fates from helping you at this time in this manner." End of encounter and the players are left wondering what higher power has it in for them.
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Planar Binding+Magic Jar wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) work.
Planar Binding summons either a elemental, or outsider (I'm assuming outsider means outsider type) which per their types description, body and soul are one in the same. And I'm not stating some fluff, but rather the rule under the types traits here. So in theory, when you use magic jar on an outsider or elemental, it tries to force a outsider's soul from its body but can't because its body and soul are one in the same. I don't see how it could work.
Of course, I will (and there was a reason for the shouldn't) give you that it doesn't say explicitly that it won't work. However, as it is the basis of several spells not working on outsiders and...
You are correct that an outsider's body is a manifestation of its soul.
My recollection is that when you successfully MJ an outsider, the whole outsider goes into the jar (no possession possible). Unfortunately I don't have a citation for this.
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But you're basically saying that a Ghaele should always say that. Every single time. So what's the point in being able to call it? Its like telling the PCs 'you can do this!' and they do and the DM just tells them 'you wasted your time, [nelson voice]ha ha![/nelson voice]'
No. Now you are projecting. I said all reasonable requests should be listened to. You are the one who said that having a Ghaele's help would always be broken.
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Before this thread gets too flamey, can I just point out that this is very similar to the polymorph problem. IE, once you have spells that put creature's abilities under the control of the players, you have an exponentially increasing chance of unbalancing a game (increasing as additional creature books come out).
As a DM I would deal with this by fiat...very very carefully (our other DM was very bad about using fiat to overthrow the printed rules whenever he felt like it)...and with RP. Essentially the planar binding and ally spells give you a chance to RP with the creatures to see if you can come to agreement.
You as the DM, playing the outsider, have to negotiate with the PC summoner over the service and the reward. The more powerful and unbalancing the service, the more astronomical the reward should be -- alignment (both the PCs and the outsider's) should only come into play to determine the type of reward (demons will always want humanoid sacrifices, for example - yum yum).
It's certainly not undermining the purpose of the spell for the bound creature to make outrageous demands. Any PC or DM reading that spell would reasonably expect that actually succeeding in binding the creature to perform a service will be incredibly risky, expensive, and time-consuming.
The other weapon in the DM's toolbox in these situations is the fact that these outsiders don't exist in vacuums, they have societies of their own. Hearken back to the Al-Qadim Sha'ir, and all the dire consequences they could bring upon themselves from the genie courts if they abused their powers to summon and bind genies. If a PC goes over the top, using munchkin spells to overpower a high-CR outsider to force a service, then there can be cosmic consequences...
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Arguing for infinite wealth with item pricing using spell-like abilities is a fallacy, because item prices are based on material components, and the assumption that a caster is using up personal resources and thus their caster level is factored into the item price.
Since the lantern archon is expending no resources, and their spell component cost is 0, an everburning torch produced by...
I'm not sure where you're getting this, either from the rules or real life economics. The rules clearly say that PCs can sell items for 50% of their value, using the listed prices in the books. Everburning torches are in the PH (or beta rules) at 110 gp, so a PC can sell one for 55 gp.
In real life, prices are set by market conditions, and how much a buyer is willing to pay. In either case, cost does not impact the selling price, unless you have a cost + markup contract in place.
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Why is your initial assumption that all creatures will just refuse to deal with you?Heck, a Ghaele is a good creature. If you have a good cause, the Ghaele is almost certainly going to give you the time of day to make your case before saying goodbye, even if you take no special precautions to prevent it leaving.
So you want it to aid you for a week to stop [insert BBEG here] and in return you'll do something for it or give something to it. You're bartering for 28 encounters worth of awesome, over which time you expect to go up 2 levels. It really doesn't matter what you agree to give it or do for it, the exchange is a good exchange for you. Heck, the planar ally price would be cheap. Offer that in a second. Have 'pet better than the party' for a week.
No, you're right. In this case I'm not disagreeing that the spell needs work. I was operating from the standpoint that the Binder was up to no good. However, Eladrin are Chaotic Good, so they will probably chaffe at forced servitude, regardless of the cause, and I was providing the means for them to do so.
Also, I think another area of the spell that could be clarified is what the creature can do after you bargain with it - I mean, if you let it out of the circle to accomplish a task for you, the spell as written does not oblige the creature to obey you or prevent it from turning on you. As it stands, the way I read Planar Binding, is that you summon the creature and it stays in its nice little circle (attempting or not attempting to escape) and, if you didn't use the diagramed magic circle, you can get it use spells or abilities for you. I believe this is the intent of the spell, the "summon a new party member" is supposed to be planar ally. So the spell could be nerfed to just prevent the creature from using any spell-like abilities while bound.
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Arguing for infinite wealth with item pricing using spell-like abilities is a fallacy, because item prices are based on material components, and the assumption that a caster is using up personal resources and thus their caster level is factored into the item price.
Since the lantern archon is expending no resources, and their spell component cost is 0, an everburning torch produced by...
I'm not sure where you're getting this, either from the rules or real life economics. The rules clearly say that PCs can sell items for 50% of their value, using the listed prices in the books. Everburning torches are in the PH (or beta rules) at 110 gp, so a PC can sell one for 55 gp.
In real life, prices are set by market conditions, and how much a buyer is willing to pay. In either case, cost does not impact the selling price, unless you have a cost + markup contract in place.
In D&D, the price of an item is determined by the caster level and spell level of the item, multiplied by an arbitrary value plus any material component costs. In the case of everburning torches, this price is 3 x 2 + 50 = 110. These prices are for normal spellcasters, and do not really consider what would happen if certain creatures used at-will spell-like abilities to create items. My argument is that if the system took this into account, items/services created by at-will spell-like abilities would cost nothing.
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I think the effect on the campaign world is part of what makes this broken. The PC can completely hijack the direction of the campaign with this spell by offering service to the outsider. What if the DM doesn't want to tell a story about outerplanar politics? The outsider's decision shouldn't be based on that - that's terrible metagaming. Creatures should act like rational beings from their own perspective.
What if the PC is a fighter and he attacks the local duke when summoned to the castle to receive an honor? What if the DM doesn't want to tell a story involving assassination attempts on the duke's life and the PC as an outlaw? I guess, to prevent this, you recommend... what? We put a rule in place to keep PCs from being able to get within sword's reach of a duke?
Obviously, it isn't just spells in the hands of players that can cause a game to go off track. Singling out spells is rather silly. I would wager there are far more ways for a game to go in a direction the DM didn't want than the use of planar binding a powerful creature. You like harping on this because it makes the wizard look powerful, but if anyone decides to break the game and ruin the fun for everyone, they don't need a spellbook to do it.
It would be like using Speak with Dead on the body of a murder victim: "Do you know who killed you?" "Yeah, but I can't tell you" "Why not?" "Because it would cheapen and trivialize the plot." "But don't you want to see your murderer brought to justice." "No, I am a sock puppet for the DM, and the plot..."
Which is why any respectable assassin cuts the tongue from his victim if he believes he can be identified by him and then pours acid into the corpse's throat. That should hold off low level attempts to find out his identity.
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Seriously, if Planar Binding doesn't let you call imps and have them fetch things for you its failing to occupy the fantasy trope its meant to. But that kind of spell also lets you call up an adventuring buddy - and that's a perfectly good fantasy trope on its own. It just shouldn't be an adventuring buddy that outclasses the rest of the party.
Hence my fix. Under it, you can't call a Ghaele until level 17, at which point it isn't nearly as powerful relative to the party. Six levels makes a lot of difference.
Now we are in complete agreement - the spell is entirely about tropes, and it should fulfill those without creating oddball situations.
That said, I could also envision two versions of the spell - one per your rules that allows to to bind and have an ally that is reduced in power. The other would work essentially the same, except you MUST use a diagramed magic circle and cannot release the creature (using a diagramed circle does indeed prevent the creature from targeting any abilities outside the circle, which circumvents the problem of Efreeti binding already). The reason I posit this is because I would like the option of trying to bind a Pit Fiend in order to leech off its knowledge or essence, but not necessarily its direct power.
That would help backwards compatability, as all a player or DM needs to know to adjust pre-written material involving Binding is that the creature cannot be released from the circle if it is of a certain HD.
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I'm still curious as to where the 'its ok as a minion' cut-off exists. There's a list of what's currently allowed on page 1 - where would you draw the line, in general. Level >= CR-4 strikes me as approximately right, but I'd like some discussion specifically on this point.
Your cut-off appears reasonable at a glance, I'll have to test it out using my "anti-planar" wizard and see what he can call at 11th level.
If there is a minion version of the spell, it should definitely have a material component cost beyond the silver for the magic circle - after all, the wizard can effectively call a minion by using one daily spell slot, whereas those who chose Leadership have permanently given up a feat.
On the subject of minions, I think it would be pretty elegant to have casters use the Leadership table, but using Caster Level + Charisma to determine the power of the creature you may bind into service (Charisma keeps the similarity to Leadership and Planar Binding mechanics). When calculating whom you can Bind, use the creatures ECL and compare it to the table. This eliminates any creature that is greater than ECL 17 at any time, as per the Leadership table. A Ghaele becomes off limits as it has no level adjustment. A Hound Archon can only be bound into service only at 13th level (and then only with a Charisma of 16). The dreaded Nightmare may only be called at 12th level, and only then with a Charisma of 14+. An imp may still be called at 5th level.
Incidentally, the regular and greater versions of planar binding could then be retained, and merely provide a bonus to your Leadership score (+2 for regular, +4 for greater).
I'm still curious as to where the 'its ok as a minion' cut-off exists. There's a list of what's currently allowed on page 1 - where would you draw the line, in general. Level >= CR-4 strikes me as approximately right, but I'd like some discussion specifically on this point.
That's what we used in the Core Coliseum message board -- one or two monster flunkies with PC level >= CR-4.
Why? It's impossible to actually mutually aid one another and establish a longterm relationship?
As far as the Pit Fiend is concerned, you're nothing more then a petulant insect. It has no interest in your comings or goings, much less becoming your errand boy. Furthermore, you're not trying to establish an actual "relationship" with it - you're just enslaving it to do your dirty work. Needless to say, it's going to come gunning for you one day in retaliation for such an indignity.
So, basically, your response to Planar Binding is the wizard should always be utterly screwed after using it? Last I checked that wasn't in the spell description. Yes, wizards who mistreat creatures they bind...
If you don't want to face the wrath of creatures that are the extraplanar manifestations of evil incarnate, then you really shouldn't summon them in the first place. Maybe you should summon up some angels or elementals instead?
Well, this weekend in our ongoing campaign, I Planar Bound a planetar! (For those looking to find fault, I have a Malconvoker p-class power that ups the HD limit of calling spells by 2.)
We were in Xin-Shalast and seeking to stop the Runelord of Greed, Kharzoug, from returning from semi-death-weird-state to rule over all Golarion. So at my party's urging, instead of binding a demon or devil I called a planetar (took three tries) and we negotiated with him. He was only interested in helping us with the free-roaming local devils and Lamashtu-worshipping lamia, but considered the whole Runelord thing to be "a mortal concern." Though personally thinking that's a bit retarded, because obviously the forces of evil are all about it happening, and it would serve to spread sin across the globe which you'd think the good gods would be against, those were the terms.
So we went into the local devil-haunted coliseum and fought a "special" ice devil with a mess of dread wraiths. Having the angel helped - I summoned an avoral and a leskylor over the course of the combat as well. The ice devil summoned five bone devils and had like 6 dread wraiths with him, so it wasn't exactly a walk in the park - our dragon shaman took like 8 CON damage. The dread wraiths were actually largely immune to a lot of the angel's powers - loads of HD, incorporeal, etc. The angel and ice devil went toe to toe with help from the entire party; the leskylor is actually the thing that got in the kill.
And everyone was pleased enough with it. Did it make the encounter not super super difficult? Yes. Did it make it a cakewalk? No. And in a normal sensible interaction between the binder and the DM, it was clear I could only get some things out of the angel, and that certainly I couldn't bind one every day and taunt it unless I wanted to get my ass kicked.
So, no problems. Of course we're a reasonably mature gaming group.
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There was something that I remembered in reading the other thread that mentions planar binding. That I dislike both planar binding and planar ally.
I never could come to terms with what would should be even called intended when PCs start using these spells. I mean, it the intended power to be able to something as strong as an earth elemental?
A 8 hit die earth elemental with a CR of 5?
Or is it fair game if a PC can also summon a ghaele (10 HD, CR 13!) that matches the earth elemental's hp and saves, then has better skills, speed, saves, attack, abilities, and is possibly capable of being just as good of a spell caster as the summoner, if not better (They can cast spells as a 14th level cleric, to summon them you need caster level 11 at least). And why not, she comes with a +4 holy greatsword.
Should I start looking to crush PCs who try to use these spells? Should I just arbitrarily punish a player who crosses where I think the line is?
I have similar feeling about these spells and polymorph. I don't want to play baby sitter for every use of these spells. I want to feel like, that they can cast them and it will be unlikely that the game will all of a sudden become enormously easier for them. I don't want to wonder, "I wonder if they will just blow through this adventure now," every time I hear, "I cast planar binding."
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Before I end this, a quick comment to the differences between planar ally and planar binding. They are pretty similar in function (and the same level) but there are a few differences in what they need. Planar ally has a expensive material component, your diety in general chooses who answers your call, and requires prices so high that I imagine many PCs wish they could be summoned by planar ally* (it should be noted that they can reduce or eliminate the price if they really want to accomplish this task). The additional cost for planar binding is that you tick off yet another extraplanar being.
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OK there is a problem with a spell. Planar Ally, in which the PC must take 10 minutes to cast the spell (a non combat spell), must spend at least 100G or more, and the GM gets to pick the creature summoned? The creature spends at LEAST one round negotiating. The creature may require more money or items, may refuse the action all together if it is too dangerous and is essentially under GM control. And this is a problem?
And then Planar Binding requires 10 minutes to prepare a summoning circle for a specific creature or type named by the caster. The creature then gets up to three chances to escape the prison per day and once it does can attack the caster. The creature can refuse any offers or payment. And at any time after the spell is finished it can come back for revenge. And there is a problem with this spell?
Both of these spells require a sizable investment of time, energy, resources and in one case a lot of money. The GM determines what creature shows up in one spell, and the other spell allows the GM to determine if the creature will even accept the deed or not and what the terms are.
Essentially, these two seplls place a huge burden on the caster and the GM gets to do all kinds of nasty stuff to the character... what is the problem here?
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Krome, in the case of Binding, if the caster wins an opposed Charisma check, the creature is forced to agree as long as the request is not unreasonable (that's a gray area, but only an unreasonable DM would always say no). Not a huge problem, as the most troublesome creatures all have high Charisma scores. To me, an unreasonable demand would be one that conflicted with a creatures alignment, put it in jeopardy, or benefited only the Binder and no other cause.
I personally don't like the fact that a non-compulsion spell can force a creature to act a certain way, but they probably put it in to prevent DMs from saying no when it was convenient.
Believe me, I'm with you on this one - it isn't as much of a problem as people make it out to be. Dominate person is potentially much more "broken".
Well, this weekend in our ongoing campaign, I Planar Bound a planetar!I have some questions:
What level were you?
What was the EL of the encounter?
Can you estimate what fraction of your (parties) resources the encounter used up?
Counting your summons as extensions of you, who was the MVP of the encounter? Estimate each characters relative contributions in effectiveness/to winning. (ie, I supplied ~40% of the win, character A supplied 15%, etc...).
I'd also be interested in knowing things like your spell list, what other spells got cast, etc..., but I see no need to make you write a novel.
You are in luck, as I would not generally bother to write all this up but our fearless session scribe keeps very detailed records. See Spires of Xin-Shalast Part III, an eleven-page PDF which answers most of your questions. Also you can see my character's full build, spell list, and builds of many of his comrades linked off the main Rise of the Runelords campaign page.
As for EL, not sure, the ice devil was CR 16, the wraiths CR 11 each (there were six), and I'm not sure if devils another devil summons count as CR - I think they do, IIRC they're not treated like "normal" summons. Anyway, five bone devils, CR9 each. The party's level 14.
The most effective spell the angel cast was holy word (mistranslated as "word of good" in the summary), paralyzing all the bone devils at one time, which come to think of it the party cleric could cast, it's only level 7. Hmmm, wonder why he never memorizes it. Anyway.
As for percentages, you know that's crap in high level play right? What percent of our resources did it use? Well, all of them as far as we were concerned, since all the party fighters had half their CON drained we retired for the day. Who did how much damage? Oh, counting my summons me of course, seconded by the cleric whose turns destroy dread wraiths. (Not counting coup de graces of paralyzed opponents...) Anyway, in high level play you expect the casters to be dealing the real damage - I think our session scribe refers to it in the later fight with giants as the party meleers deal out "retail damage" while I trade in "wholesale." But just like in a balanced WoW party, DPS is not synonymous with effectiveness. It's one of many ways to be effective. No one died, so the cleric was effective, and nothing got into melee with me, so far as I'm concerned the fighters were effective.
Other minor corrections and additions - the ice devil Slowed the angel, not vice versa. And we made the angel drink a potion of Owl's Wisdom to boost his spell save DCs. And the cleric cast a couple buffs which I only remember as "+3 to everything offensive and an extra attack" and "+4 to everything defensive".
Did the angel do the other summonings or did you? As a rule I understand that summoned/bound beings can not use thier own summoning powers.
I did the other summons, but the rule is that summons can't summon, not binds/calls. The angel had SMIX, but was kinda busy....
Seriously, powerful beings aiding mortals in just causes is *also* a fantasy trope. I see no reason why the wizard shouldn't be able to ask one if it wants to help out.
To state it more completely, the corrollary of that trope is that such aid is usually obtained at high price, high risk, and typically employed only when all other means will fail.
It's the sort of thing that's done with majesty and dramatic tension, it should never be reduced to "oh, I see we've got a little problem here, what outsider should we bind today old chaps?" It should never be routine If the malconvoker is that kind of class than by my standards, it's broken, and will never be allowed within the same zipcode of any campaign I run.
Welcome to the D&D magic system. Love it or leave it. Everything magic requires risk and effort and "dramatic tension" in stories. In D&D, it's in a 6th level spell slot.
It has nothing to do with "malconvoker", it's that Planar Binding (and ally, and summmons, and gate) are just spells. In the Bible, Flame Strike and Lower Water were loads more impressive. In D&D - x times per day. C'est la vie.