I like all the WotC people I have talked to, and I would rather none of them be on the wrong end of a reorganization like this.
Hear, hear. The Wizards of the Coast designers and reps at Gen Con were nothing less than generous with their time and their kind words (especially Chris Perkins and Andy Collins).
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Neither did Enron, right...
This is really getting old. WotC did not lie. Some guy says something to the effect of "I don't think its coming any time soon" and plans changed. That is not a lie.
Enron lied big time - they have memos plotting out the strategy. Some WotC guy fumbling a question in an open forum is not the same as planned deception.
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[threadjack]Thank you for this link. It has reminded me of why I stopped haunting the WotC messageboards and moved over here. I really do appreciate the general tone of this place, the light touch of moderation, and the respect the majority of Paizonians show to each other here.[/threadjack]-Here is the Thread in question
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Here, Here! I drifted away from the WotC boards about 2 years ago, after finding that if you weren't in the "clique" then you didn't matter.
Linae Foster is gone as well.
Linae Foster is gone as well.
Ouch. Any links or anything for verification?
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Here, Here! I drifted away from the WotC boards about 2 years ago, after finding that if you weren't in the "clique" then you didn't matter.While I'm not defending the WotC boards in any way ... how is this different from any other board? Including this one.
My very first post on this board was acknowledged and generated discussion. That sort of atmosphere is common around here.
Too often on Wizards I would post and it would be ignored.
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Here, Here! I drifted away from the WotC boards about 2 years ago, after finding that if you weren't in the "clique" then you didn't matter.While I'm not defending the WotC boards in any way ... how is this different from any other board? Including this one.My very first post on this board was acknowledged and generated discussion. That sort of atmosphere is common around here.
Too often on Wizards I would post and it would be ignored.
Same experience here, except I never even bothered trying at Wizards.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Here, Here! I drifted away from the WotC boards about 2 years ago, after finding that if you weren't in the "clique" then you didn't matter.While I'm not defending the WotC boards in any way ... how is this different from any other board? Including this one.
People on this board, in my honest opinion, tend to take resposibility for their speech a little more. This is by no means universal but a tendency. Sure, we say and do stupid things but these stupid things are often (not always) followed with apologies.
For example, I'd like to apologize to Fake Healer for using sarcasm and hyperbole instead of acknowledging his views more directly and concretely. This was earlier in this thread (the part of this thread that shall not be discussed).
Lidda and Rouse do some talking on this page.Linae Foster is gone as well.Ouch. Any links or anything for verification?
Lidda and Rouse do some talking on this page.Linae Foster is gone as well.Ouch. Any links or anything for verification?
"NETWORK TIMEOUT: The server at www.enworld.org is taking too long to respond."
Darn it...let's go back to the old page/server already.
Lidda and Rouse do some talking on this page.Linae Foster is gone as well.Ouch. Any links or anything for verification?"NETWORK TIMEOUT: The server at www.enworld.org is taking too long to respond."Darn it...let's go back to the old page/server already.
Yeah, I'm getting the same thing.
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Enron lied big time - they have memos plotting out the strategy. Some WotC guy fumbling a question in an open forum is not the same as planned deception.
Never blame on malice what can be explained by stupidity, yes? ;-)
I think that the WotC guy knew exactly what he was doing. It was a carefully crafted response to a question they knew was going to be asked. It was deliberately designed to give the impression that 4E was a long way off, so the sales of their 3.5 products wouldn't take a nose dive. We all know now that at the time this statement was made, WotC had been working on 4E for almost two years. I firmly believe that the intention to deliberately mislead was there.
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Lidda and Rouse do some talking on this page.Linae Foster is gone as well.Ouch. Any links or anything for verification?I cannot currently access ENWOrld to read up on this, but my immediate thought was concern for the revised GSL. Linae Foster was one of Orcus/Clark's friends inside Wizards of the Coast who was working for a more open GSL.
It's sad to see someone who was in as tricky a position as she was at times have to go; it would be even sadder if she's going because she tried too hard to fight Orcus' corner, and made herself a target in the process.
But this may be just idle speculation on my part; can anyone who can access the pages comment on if it looks this way or not?
Rouse is still at WotC, Linae is not and she is now looking for a job in the RPG industry.
Who is Linae?
Rouse is still at WotC, Linae is not and she is now looking for a job in the RPG industry.Who is Linae?
The Rouse also says he is still firmly committed to a more open GSL, and Linae says she thinks he'll get one.
Linae and the Rouse were both strong proponents for a more open GSL within Wizards. I'm not sure what her proper title used to be.
Who is Linae?
URL to thead elsewhere on paizo where she's described in greater detail by Wes and others.
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I think that the WotC guy knew exactly what he was doing. It was a carefully crafted response to a question they knew was going to be asked. It was deliberately designed to give the impression that 4E was a long way off, so the sales of their 3.5 products wouldn't take a nose dive. We all know now that at the time this statement was made, WotC had been working on 4E for almost two years. I firmly believe that the intention to deliberately mislead was there.
... and man has never set foot on the moon, the world is actually flat, and swallowing pop-rocks and Pepsi at the same time will kill you.
The idea that he had some elaborate corporate-sponsored plan to deceive the D&D community requires a very large stretch of imagination and give far too much credit to WotC to be able to pull of such an elaborate and coordinated campaign of deception and obfuscation.
Go look at the cover of Entertainment Weekly. The magazine has Harry Potter on the cover of its fall movie issue. HP isn't coming out until next year. The company that publishes EW also owns WB. So when EW went to WB while it put its fall preview issue together was the guy at WB (who more than likely knew HP was going to be delayed) lying when he gave approval for the cover? Is EW lying because the movie is on the cover but not coming out until next summer?
I think that the WotC guy knew exactly what he was doing. It was a carefully crafted response to a question they knew was going to be asked. It was deliberately designed to give the impression that 4E was a long way off, so the sales of their 3.5 products wouldn't take a nose dive. We all know now that at the time this statement was made, WotC had been working on 4E for almost two years. I firmly believe that the intention to deliberately mislead was there.... and man has never set foot on the moon, the world is actually flat, and swallowing pop-rocks and Pepsi at the same time will kill you.
I knew it!! :D
The idea that he had some elaborate corporate-sponsored plan to deceive the D&D community requires a very large stretch of imagination and give far too much credit to WotC to be able to pull of such an elaborate and coordinated campaign of deception and obfuscation.
Go look at the cover of Entertainment Weekly. The magazine has Harry Potter on the cover of its fall movie issue. HP isn't coming out until next year. The company that publishes EW also owns WB. So when EW went to WB while it put its fall preview issue together was the guy at WB (who more than likely knew HP was going to be delayed) lying when he gave approval for the cover? Is EW lying because the movie is on the cover but not coming out until next summer?
The EW simile doesn't really apply in this case. The charge is that WoTC knew there was a 4E release approaching and denied it. For the comparision to work, WB would have needed to state that there would be no Harry Potter movie forthcoming, and then release it to an unsuspecting fanbase.
Anyways, I don't really think it takes that much of a stretch to think that there may have been some corporate motive for keeping the fanbase in the dark. Look at it this way. Development of 4E began two years ago. The WoTC guy (that just sounds really strange... WoTC guy... "Behold! I am WoTC GUY!!!"... ahem) said in the interim that there were no plans to release a new edition. If that statement were true, why was it already in development? I seriously doubt someone up at R&D said "Hey guys, I got a great idea. Let's develop a game we've got no intentions of releasing, just for the heck of it!" :P
Please note that all of the above info was gleaned from other posts on this board. I have no idea when development started or when someone said there would be no new edition. I'm just saying that with the available info, it doesn't seem like an impossibility.
The idea that he had some elaborate corporate-sponsored plan to deceive the D&D community requires a very large stretch of imagination and give far too much credit to WotC to be able to pull of such an elaborate and coordinated campaign of deception and obfuscation.Go look at the cover of Entertainment Weekly. The magazine has Harry Potter on the cover of its fall movie issue. HP isn't coming out until next year. The company that publishes EW also owns WB. So when EW went to WB while it put its fall preview issue together was the guy at WB (who more than likely knew HP was going to be delayed) lying when he gave approval for the cover? Is EW lying because the movie is on the cover but not coming out until next summer?
Are you seriously claiming WB and the company that owns it and EW isn't massively larger than WOTC? :) I mean the harry potter budget alone is probably bigger than the DD budget. I also believe the Potter delay was a recent decision so wouldn't have spread out to all of WB. Kinda curious what the video game companies are doing with the delay. :)
Now I do agree that I doubt WOTC is that good at planning and hiding things. I also think this WOTC guy thing has been a tad over done at this point.
Enron lied big time - they have memos plotting out the strategy. Some WotC guy fumbling a question in an open forum is not the same as planned deception.
Crosswired, I don't know who the WoTC guy in question is, or when he made this statement you're referring to, so I guess I'm out of the loop (which might suggest that I've got more worthwhile matters to attend to...); but I do know that I listened to a WoTC podcast with Noonan & Mearls, and they stated that they'd Started working on 4Ed within 18-24 months of the Release date of 3.5 edition. That's an awful long time to deliberately deny/avoid any mention of the upcoming edition. The question of whether WoTC "technically" deceived anyone may be in your favor, but they clearly sold a lot of books knowing full well that the buyers weren't going to be using those books very long before the new edition arrived.
... and man has never set foot on the moon, the world is actually flat, and swallowing pop-rocks and Pepsi at the same time will kill you.The idea that he had some elaborate corporate-sponsored plan to deceive the D&D community requires a very large stretch of imagination and give far too much credit to WotC to be able to pull of such an elaborate and coordinated campaign of deception and obfuscation.
Go look at the cover of Entertainment Weekly. The magazine has Harry Potter on the cover of its fall movie issue. HP isn't coming out until next year. The company that publishes EW also owns WB. So when EW went to WB while it put its fall preview issue together was the guy at WB (who more than likely knew HP was going to be delayed) lying when he gave approval for the cover? Is EW lying because the movie is on the cover but not coming out until next summer?
Okay Crosswiredmind, I've just read your most recent post, and I've come to the conclusion (and as a Licensed Quack Psychologist, I CAN do that:) that your most recent post was incredibly non-objective to the point of being sycophantish, in your defense for WoTC/4E. (or else you're incredibly naive).
Companies routinely regulate what information they make public and when. It would appear that the man in question clearly dodged the question. Politicians do this all the time. Merely listen to your two candidates for president and you'll hear it on a daily basis.|
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Enron lied big time - they have memos plotting out the strategy. Some WotC guy fumbling a question in an open forum is not the same as planned deception.
Crosswired, I don't know who the WoTC guy in question is, or when he made this statement you're referring to, so I guess I'm out of the loop (which might suggest that I've got more worthwhile matters to attend to...); but I do know that I listened to a WoTC podcast with Noonan & Mearls, and they stated that they'd Started working on 4Ed within 18-24 months of the Release date of 3.5 edition. That's an awful long time to deliberately deny/avoid any mention of the upcoming edition. The question of whether WoTC "technically" deceived anyone may be in your favor, but they clearly sold a lot of books knowing full well that the buyers weren't going to be using those books very long before the new edition arrived.
When asked if 4e was coming out soon the answer (in an open discussion with some WotC employee) the guy said that as far as he knew there were no plans to release a new edition any time soon. Then, within a few months WotC announced that a new edition was on its way. This was more than a year ago. The guy did not say that WotC was not working on a new edition, nor did he say that WotC would not have a new edition. He simply stated that his understanding was that 4e was not coming soon.
How this turned into a WotC plan of deception to keep 3e sales going is beyond me. A guy said something he thought was true and OOOPS turn out he did not know that 4e would be announced a few months later and then released about a year later.
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Okay Crosswiredmind, I've just read your most recent post, and I've come to the conclusion (and as a Licensed Quack Psychologist, I CAN do that:) that your most recent post was incredibly non-objective to the point of being sycophantish, in your defense for WoTC/4E. (or else you're incredibly naive).
Hardly. What I am saying is that a corporate misstep does not automatically equal some deep dark conspiracy to deceive the public. I am not saying that WotC is infallible. In fact it is my belief that they have made some incredibly boneheaded decisions over the years but I simply cannot stand the tinfoil hat brigade tromping out the "WotC is evil" dog and pony show.
Companies routinely regulate what information they make public and when. It would appear that the man in question clearly dodged the question. Politicians do this all the time. Merely listen to your two candidates for president and you'll hear it on a daily basis.
No s*~*. But there is a difference between non-disclosure and deception.
Note the following is NOT an attack on WotC, it is simply here to cast more light on "the lie"
If the incident is the one I am thinking of, it was Chris Perkins, not some namless WotC Employee, but the BRAND MANAGER of Dungeons and Dragons, and the time (IIRC) was Origens '06 (about year and a month from when 4e was announced, I could be wrong though, it could have been one of the other 06 conventions) and what he said was something like:
there will be a 4e eventually, but we have no plans to release a 4th edition in the foreseable future.
that part I can live with.
he also said something like:
4e is not even on our radar yet, and we haven't even started development
which due to later timelineing of them telling us how long it had been in developlment was a lie.
Of course given that it was Chris Perkins that made the comment, I am not sure which is more disturbing, the idea that he outright lied about 4e, or CWM's idea that he (he is the brand manager remember) was somehow oblivious to the 4e development that was going on.
Personly I think he purposly lied, and while I do not think that it was the right thing to do, I can see why he did it. There was a large amount of 4e paranioa at the time that he made the remarks (and lots of anti-4e rumbling on the WotC message boards) and his little lie did a lot to quel that for the next year until the actual 4e anouncement.
of course I could be totaly off base, and CWM could be thinking of some other time that a WotC employee lied (either dileberatly or inadvertantly) about 4e being in development, although I don't recall any other specific instances.
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of course I could be totaly off base, and CWM could be thinking of some other time that a WotC employee lied (either dileberatly or inadvertantly) about 4e being in development, although I don't recall any other specific instances.
I had not heard that it was Chris Perkins, and i had not heard about the second comment. Every time I have asked for someone to get me some kind of transcript or verification of who said what when then suddenly there are a dozen different opinions about the whole thing. The only thing I had heard was that a WotC employee in an open QA sesion said that the release of 4e was not going to happen any time soon.
It could very well have been Chris Perkins in 2006 - and that part of his answer was no lie as 4e came out two years later. I would need to see something solid about that second comment. Did he say development as in the product development pipeline (manuscript to publication) or as in R&D development? Even if he said it at the time the whole project was still in a very rough form and no one at WotC knew if it was ever going to see the light of day in the form that it was in at the time.
This thread seems to be going way off topic, in a not-nice way.
A love of Speculation is human nature Charles:), for better or for worse. Just ask the folks setting the price on oil...
CWM, whether anyone at WoTC is guilty of anything or not; it strikes me that you REALLY WANT WoTc to be "innocent" of the allegations being made against them. Why is that?
Sooo...
How come no body ever mentions the fact that Paizo was taking Dragon and Dungeon subscriptions less than a year out from the secret cancellation?
Hmm...?
And if I recall correctly, I believe some staffers here even acknowledged they knew the magazines would be cancelled more than a year out.
Just trying to keep the kettle stirring both ways; there's room for everybody in here. No body is perfect--believe me, I know! ;D
Mr. Satan,
Sir, what's with your screen name? Maybe a little therapy is in your future perhaps...?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Mr. Satan,
Sir, what's with your screen name? Maybe a little therapy is in your future perhaps...?
Allen, I realize you are trying to drum up some business, but that could come across as a personal attack. You should at least hand him your business card when he says that so he knows it isn't a put-down, but an offer.
CWM, whether anyone at WoTC is guilty of anything or not; it strikes me that you REALLY WANT WoTc to be "innocent" of the allegations being made against them. Why is that?Objection your honour! Relevance?
The relevance Mr. Dei, is the psychology of the defendant and why he's defending; because in this 'case', he's doing a whole lot of Defending for the folks at WoTC...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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The relevance Mr. Dei, is the psychology of the defendant and why he's defending; because in this 'case', he's doing a whole lot of Defending for the folks at WoTC...CWM, whether anyone at WoTC is guilty of anything or not; it strikes me that you REALLY WANT WoTc to be "innocent" of the allegations being made against them. Why is that?Objection your honour! Relevance?
Oh. I didn't realize Crosswiredmind was on trial. I thought we were trying WotC in absentia.
EDIT: Anyone wanna lay odds on how long it is before one of the lawyers that lurks here pops in and slaps us around for fake-legalese?
Allen, I realize you are trying to drum up some business, but that could come across as a personal attack. You should at least hand him your business card when he says that so he knows it isn't a put-down, but an offer.
I have yet to figure out how to electronically post my business cards on these boards. Do feel free to advise me Mr. Dei.
My remarks were in no way intended to personally attack Mr. S. Rather, people pretty much always do the things they do for a reason. I was curious as to why Mr. S, chose the screen name in question.|
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Neither did Enron, right...
This is really getting old. WotC did not lie. Some guy says something to the effect of "I don't think its coming any time soon" and plans changed. That is not a lie.Enron lied big time - they have memos plotting out the strategy. Some WotC guy fumbling a question in an open forum is not the same as planned deception.
fyi, ben glisan (enron treasurer) was my cellie for a bit in federal prison. i enjoyed (probably a bit too much) watching him try to adapt to not being in charge of anything...
(hey, i'm from houston, i know a lot of people that were hurt by their bs...)
Oh. I didn't realize Crosswiredmind was on trial. I thought we were trying WotC in absentia.EDIT: Anyone wanna lay odds on how long it is before one of the lawyers that lurks here pops in and slaps us around for fake-legalese?
CWM certainly isn't on trial, nor need he justify his positions on the matter. I have noted his unwavering support for WoTC's positions in the past to be rather curious.
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Sooo...
How come no body ever mentions the fact that Paizo was taking Dragon and Dungeon subscriptions less than a year out from the secret cancellation?
Hmm...?
And if I recall correctly, I believe some staffers here even acknowledged they knew the magazines would be cancelled more than a year out.
Just trying to keep the kettle stirring both ways; there's room for everybody in here. No body is perfect--believe me, I know! ;D
They weren't allowed to tell anyone that far in advance, and saying "we won't be taking subscriptions for . . . no reason." would be pretty obvious. Also, what if your subscription ran out 2 months prior to the cancellation? You'd just be stuck without those issues had they not allowed subscriptions.
If memory serves, they also added a "month-to-month" option similar to what they have with Pathfinder.
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CWM certainly isn't on trial, nor need he justify his positions on the matter. I have noted his unwavering support for WoTC's positions in the past to be rather curious.
Oh. I didn't realize Crosswiredmind was on trial. I thought we were trying WotC in absentia.EDIT: Anyone wanna lay odds on how long it is before one of the lawyers that lurks here pops in and slaps us around for fake-legalese?
i think his position has been, unwaveringly, WotC is a business, they do whatever they think is best for their business (and has pointed out on occasion where he thinks they've made mistakes), and that, in his opinion, they aren't necessarily trying to screw anyone.
i don't always agree with all of his assessments, but i've never seen him post anything outrageously "fanboyish".
(secretly, though, i think he takes a devil's advocate position on occasion...)
(secretly, though, i think he takes a devil's advocate position on occasion...)
I am inclined to agree with you Sir.
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i think his position has been, unwaveringly, WotC is a business, they do whatever they think is best for their business (and has pointed out on occasion where he thinks they've made mistakes), and that, in his opinion, they aren't necessarily trying to screw anyone.
I think this right here is probably the most true statement to be made. WotC has done what it thinks was best. While they've failed - MISERABLY - on many occasions, I honestly think that they did it by accident, and not out of malicious intent.
Personally, I think a lot of brilliant people work at WotC. I don't believe, however, that a majority of them are able to extrapolate secondary and tertiary effects of the actions they take. I'm quite certain they completely believed that everyone and their cousin would be so delighted with 4E that they could pretty much do what they wanted and everyone would be on their bandwagon. You see it on Scott Rouse's face any time someone challenges him about the wisdom of their decisions and the outcome of their actions. I honestly believe some of them in the WotC camp are living a bit of a disconnect between what they believe the reality is, and what's actually happening down here in the streets. Sometimes I wonder if it's something in the kool-aide they serve there
<cue Kool-aide Man now>
i think his position has been, unwaveringly, WotC is a business, they do whatever they think is best for their business (and has pointed out on occasion where he thinks they've made mistakes), and that, in his opinion, they aren't necessarily trying to screw anyone.
i don't always agree with all of his assessments, but i've never seen him post anything outrageously "fanboyish".
That is pretty much how I see CWM and his posting as well (change "i don't always agree with all of his assessments" to "I rarely agree with any of his assesments" and your spot on in my view).
And I agree about WotC as well, I do not believe that they are intentionaly trying to screw anybody, they are just acting the way a corperation acts.
Thier P.R. could be a bit better (okay a lot better) but I don't think that they are trying to act maliciously in any way (even "the lie" aluded to above, while I do think it was deliberate I do not think it was meant to be malicious).
As for them making cutbacks (the original topic of this thread), it is sad to see any company have to lay off employees, and a company like WotC which has many wonderful people working for it is no exception. However, given the current state of the economy, I do not find such downsizing all that surprising... at least they are not sending these people out in the cold a month before Christmas. I truly hope that the employees that WotC is forced to let go can find other jobs to transition into sooner rather then later.