We've been translating our clerics from 3.5 to Pathfinder, and ran across confusion when we hit the Domain Powers. At first we figured from looking at the Domains listed in the spell section that the spells were gone and you just got the loverly new powers. But when we read the section under the cleric and the info preceeding the Domain lists, we grew very confused. I've included the paragraphs in question below. Italics are to make clear these aren't my words, but what was printed in the Beta. Bold is for emphasis on sections that we're confused about.
Domain Powers (Su): Each cleric must choose a deity. Each deity has a number of domains associated with its faith, and its clerics must choose two of these domains to focus on. Each domain grants a number of domain powers dependent upon the level of the cleric, as well as a number of bonus spells. A cleric gains both of the listed powers and bonus spells granted by her domains at each of the listed levels. See the Spells Chapter for more information.
Domains
Each deity has a number of spheres of influence, ideals and concepts that they represent and champion. Their followers can draw upon these domains for additional powers and abilities. Each cleric chooses two of the domains granted by their deity upon taking their first level. Druids who forgo taking an animal companion can choose one domain from the following list: air, animal, earth, fire, plant, water, or weather (see the Classes Chapter).
Domains grant one ability at 1st level and a second ability at 8th level, as noted in their description. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are activated by using a standard action. The cleric’s (or druid’s) level is used when determining the caster level of these effects. The DC for any save is equal to 10+ the spell’s level + the caster’s Charisma modifier. In addition, each domain grants a number of bonus spells. These spells are prepared along with the cleric’s other spells for the day. A cleric gains the listed bonus spells from both of his domains.
So, are the "missing" spell lists one of the gaps mentioned in the intro and we're supposed to use the old spell lists in addition to the abilities printed here? Or is it the language that is confusing me, and there aren't lists of separate spells but these are the abilities AND spells in one list that the cleric gets to play with? Help a poor confused player/GM :) Thank you!
We haven't heard the official word on it yet, but my interpretation is that domains no longer give any spell-like abilities -- they give bonus spells instead. So a level 2 cleric with the Air and Artifice domains would get Obscuring Mist and Animate Rope as bonus spells (not spell-like abilities, even though they're labelled as such).
I've rebolded the important section:
Domains grant one ability at 1st level and a second ability at 8th level, as noted in their description. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are activated by using a standard action. The cleric’s (or druid’s) level is used when determining the caster level of these effects. The DC for any save is equal to 10+ the spell’s level + the caster’s Charisma modifier. In addition, each domain grants a number of bonus spells. These spells are prepared along with the cleric’s other spells for the day.
The "Powers" listed on the Domain charts are the "abilities" at 1st and 8th level, and the bonus spells granted. That's it.
The "Powers" listed on the Domain charts are the "abilities" at 1st and 8th level, and the bonus spells granted. That's it.
Meaning the One additonal bonus spell per spell circle (as currently in 3.5)?
Or
The spells listed as part the Domain descriptions in the PathfinderRPG at the levels other then 1st and 8th?
The text describing domains in the PathfinderRPG is confusing me. :(
Meaning the One additonal bonus spell per spell circle (as currently in 3.5)?Or
The spells listed as part the Domain descriptions in the PathfinderRPG at the levels other then 1st and 8th?
The text describing domains in the PathfinderRPG is confusing me. :(
You get what it says under the Pathfinder domain description: abilities at level 1 and 8, and bonus spells at levels 2, 4, 12, 16, and 20 (which used to be spell-like abilities).
3.5 domains have nothing to do with it.
|
I've rebolded the important section:
Domains grant one ability at 1st level and a second ability at 8th level, as noted in their description. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are activated by using a standard action. The cleric’s (or druid’s) level is used when determining the caster level of these effects. The DC for any save is equal to 10+ the spell’s level + the caster’s Charisma modifier. In addition, each domain grants a number of bonus spells. These spells are prepared along with the cleric’s other spells for the day.The "Powers" listed on the Domain charts are the "abilities" at 1st and 8th level, and the bonus spells granted. That's it.
He keeps saying that. But either something's missing or the wording in the Beta is exceptionally misleading.
Meaning the One additonal bonus spell per spell circle (as currently in 3.5)?Or
The spells listed as part the Domain descriptions in the PathfinderRPG at the levels other then 1st and 8th?
The text describing domains in the PathfinderRPG is confusing me. :(
You get what it says under the Pathfinder domain description: abilities at level 1 and 8, and bonus spells at levels 2, 4, 12, 16, and 20 (which used to be spell-like abilities).
3.5 domains have nothing to do with it.
Thank You. :)
I honestly was confused a bit by the wording.
The "Powers" listed on the Domain charts are the "abilities" at 1st and 8th level, and the bonus spells granted. That's it.He keeps saying that. But either something's missing or the wording in the Beta is exceptionally misleading.
Other than the bonus spells being mistakenly still listed as (Sp) [which means spell-like], there is nothing missing or misleading unless you are going in with the assumptions from 3.5.
It says you get abilities at 1st and 8th, and it says you get bonus spells. These are listed on the chart. It is clear unless you are expecting something else.
It could perhaps mention the levels at which the bonus spells are gained however.
|
|
It seems to me that the cleric domain abilities haven't changed from the Alpha, except that instead of being spell-like abilities, most of the powers have been renamed as bonus spells. This isn't a real substantial change, but it makes a lot of sense. The only real difference between this and the alpha is that now clerics don't have to get involved in all that messy SLA-related-feats business, which is definitely a good thing.
In terms of relating to 3.5, here's a summary:
- Domains no longer have "granted powers" (I.E. Good: cast Good spells at +1 CL)
- Instead of choosing which domain spell to prepare in your bonus slot, you essentially get two slots and get to prepare both! Huzzah!
- You don't get bonus spells at every spell level anymore; Instead, at class levels 1, 2, 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 you get access to a new bonus spell.
A few exceptions to watch out for:
- The spells you get at levels 1 and 8 aren't actually spells, they're supernatural abilities. That's why most of them aren't listed in the Spells section (don't worry, everything you need to know about these abilities is listed right there in the domain section)
- Some of the bonus spells let you use them multiple times a day, such as Air's Obscuring Mist or Artifice's Animate Object (although this may be an accidental holdover from the Alpha...best check the Paizo boards periodically for errata!)
Ah, too bad. I really will miss the Domain spells. I think it would be much cooler if at every spell level you got the old style bonus spells, except that instead of being an "extra per day per spellcasting level" spell it would just be another item on the spell list.
I too thought the wording implied that the list of Domain powers (some of which include spell like effects which have the same name and effect as spells) ALSO included spells that go on your spell list. I think it would be MUCH more interesting if, say, a fire cleric might be able to memorize a couple of Wall of Fire spells in her 4th level spells, if desired.
This sinking feeling I'm getting makes me suddenly wonder about the Fire Domain special ability. Is it a (d6+1) per 2 spellcaster levels, or is it a d6 (one d6 only ever) plus 1 per ever other spellcaster level? In other words would a 5th level Fire Domain Cleric be able to shoot a ray for 3d6+3 or 1d6+3? I was hoping that the "can do a low-medium single target zap every round" cool stuff of the Warlock was showing up here. I guess the answer is probably the same for the Sorcerer bloodlines. I guess a 5th level aberrant Sorcerer can't crank out a 3d6 acid ray either?
The wording is unclear. Until I started getting that sinking feeling that things arent as cool as I'd hoped, I thought the wording implied (1d6+1) per 2 levels. They need to make it more clear, even if they have to put some kind of formula or even if they have to make it into 2 sentences. "A blah can shoot a ray that does 1d6 + 1 damage. At level 3, this ray does 1d6 + 2 damage, and increases thereafter in a similar progression until at level 19 you do a miserable 1d6 + 10 points of damage, so why bother" or some other clarifying text.
Back to Reserve Feats for my "useful plinking damage every round" effects, I suppose. It'd be better than that. I was really hoping to have a cleric of a fire god that can CRANK out some fire.
Lewis
|
|
The wording is unclear. Until I started getting that sinking feeling that things arent as cool as I'd hoped, I thought the wording implied (1d6+1) per 2 levels. They need to make it more clear, even if they have to put some kind of formula or even if they have to make it into 2 sentences. "A blah can shoot a ray that does 1d6 + 1 damage. At level 3, this ray does 1d6 + 2 damage, and increases thereafter in a similar progression until at level 19 you do a miserable 1d6 + 10 points of damage, so why bother" or some other clarifying text.
The wording seems pretty clear to me, but I see where it could be read as ambiguous.
Fire Bolt (Su): As a standard action, you can unleash a fire bolt targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The fire bolt deals 1d6 points of fire damage +1 for every two caster levels you possess.
I suppose it'd be best to change the last sentence to read:
"The fire bolt deals 1d6 points of fire damage, +1 point of fire damage for every two caster levels you possess." (Or something similar)AFAIK, every instance of "1dX points of damage +1 per Y levels" in 3.x has always meant "1dx+(Y*levels)", not "(1dX+1)*levels". The fact that they separate the "1d6" from the "+1" should be a big hint.
Anyway, the reason that this ability isn't as powerful as you'd like it to be is because it's a fallback ability. It's basically giving the cleric a sort of thematic shortbow that can't be taken away. The centerpiece of the cleric's contributions should be his top level spells, not the simple fire-conjuring he learned his first day as an acolyte.
That's too bad. I assumed (until you specified) that it was like magic missile, where it is a (d4+1) * X. That pretty much killed my interest in a Fire Cleric, which I've always wanted to make, but that D&D never really let me make as a cleric.
I think if I do a fire cleric, I'll just make a Sorcerer and pick only Fire Spells and take Knowledge Religion. It is too bad a Sorcerer can't pick from Cleric spells as well. My "dream class" would be a Sorcerer that could cast heals and fire attacks spontaneously, but I'd have to pick. So, my level 7 fire/healing Sorcerer would maybe know 5/3/2 as so:
Cure Light Wounds, Orb of Fire Lesser, Burning Hands, Mage Armor, True Strike / Cure Moderate, Lesser Restoration, Scorching Ray / Cure Serious Wounds, Fireball.
Or maybe what I'd like is a Cleric who has 1 choice fire spell per spell level on her spells list and/or could spontaneously cast to fire instead of healing.
Oh well. Clerics will remain the class nobody ever plays or has played in our group (since none of us care about min-max cheesing his holy combat spells and buffs to make him into uber tank mage).
Yeah, my next priest character is just going to be a fire sorcerer with no actual heals.
Shortbow. Meh.
Lewis
|
How about "touch of chaos". At first glance, I thought it to be lame, until my cleric/rogue, fighting w/ 2 weapon style (and quick draw), started fighting with dagger in one hand, chaos touch in the other and then drawing a hidden blade after applying the touch attack. Now I learn from our Paizo experts, it's a standard action to "charge it" and then a "touch attack" to deliver. That's 2 rounds, for a neat trick that unfortunately is all looks and no real game impact as it can only effect a target once and for very a limited duration. It's just gone from part of my normal attack routine (I would just as soon get the d4 +4 points of damage from a dagger) to another seldom used "chaos domain" power. C'mon, even a rogue rarely has uses for Prot. from Law. Perhaps it can be delivered secretly, giving me an interesting an previously unexplored use. Any thoughts?
Paizo, please rephrase or clarify the wording below. I saw the part about supernatural powers being a standard action unless otherwise stated but I read "imbue a target with chaos as a melee touch attack", as a "melee touch attack", not standard action, then a melee touch attack. Sorry if I am an idiot and this is something obvious to everyone else!! Otherwise, I do love the Pathfinder concept, give me a few more class powers options (trees or whatever, anything to ensure not all priests of whomever are the same) and I will be happy.
Thank you!!
Embrace the Anarchy!!
Touch of Chaos (Su): You may imbue a target with
chaos as a melee touch attack. For the next 3 rounds,
any time the target rolls a d20, he must roll twice
and take the less favorable result. This effect fades
after 3 rounds or when the target fails an attack roll,
save, skill, or ability check. Once a target has been
affected by the touch of chaos, he is immune to its
effects for 1 day.]
|
|
My current character is a Celestial Sorcerer who focuses on fire spells (fire spells cast with Consecrate Spell and Searing Spell, so it does half unblockable holy damage and half unblockable fire damage! :throws the horns:). The Celestial Sorcerer gets a special ability called Heavenly Fire that is a fire bolt hat damage evil creatures and heals good ones.
It fulfills my need to play a fiery celestial avenger.
|
|
Now I learn from our Paizo experts, it's a standard action to "charge it" and then a "touch attack" to deliver.
Touch of Chaos (Su): You may imbue a target with chaos as a melee touch attack. For the next 3 rounds, any time the target rolls a d20, he must roll twice and take the less favorable result. This effect fades after 3 rounds or when the target fails an attack roll, save, skill, or ability check. Once a target has been affected by the touch of chaos, he is immune to its effects for 1 day.]
Whoever told you that it takes a standard action to charge it and then a second standard action to deliver it was totally wrong.
It's a standard action to activate and use the power, and you use it by making the touch attack. One standard action, and then the effect takes place. It's a nice effect too, since it offers no save. To make this effect really shine, have another character ready a nasty spell that offers a saving throw to go off right after you successfully use the ability.
|
|
It was Jason B and he actually spoke with my DM at GenCon, not me. No way my DM was lieing BUT he may have led Jason a bit. I am also guessing Jason may have been a little mentally drained by Sunday afternoon and quite possibly errored in his answering of the question. Thanks for the imput... As always, it'll end up being my DM's call regardless but your assesment would be more in line with my thinking.
You reading this DoorMat?
What else could DM possibly stand for? ;-)
It was Jason B and he actually spoke with my DM at GenCon, not me. No way my DM was lieing BUT he may have led Jason a bit. I am also guessing Jason may have been a little mentally drained by Sunday afternoon and quite possibly errored in his answering of the question.
I think there was probably just some confusion. Using the ability is a standard action, so it can't be activated in the same round as you're using two-weapon fighting (a full round action). However, you could activate it one round, hold the touch, and then use two-weapon fighting the next round.
|
|
I think there was probably just some confusion. Using the ability is a standard action, so it can't be activated in the same round as you're using two-weapon fighting (a full round action). However, you could activate it one round, hold the touch, and then use two-weapon fighting the next round.
Oh, if that's the issue, then yeah. That's correct. You can't activate the power as part of a full attack, so if you want to use it as the off-hand weapon then you would have to activate it the round before.
But just using the power itself is a standard action that includes the touch itself. It would make far more sense to just use the power on the round you activate it, then make a full attack with two weapons the next round.Assuming you start adjacent to a foe, then the best option would be:
Round One: Standard action to activate Chaos Touch and touch target, then a Move action to draw weapon.
Round Two: Full attack with both weapons.
But Chaos Touch is something you really want to use as a set-up to a save dependent spell, as the absolute best use of the ability is to force a failed save, rather than to force a failed attack.
Also, don't let a DM bully you into believing that a DM's call supercedes the rules as written. DM calls for when the rules don't cover an issue. A DM should be altering the rules as written without a clear, rational reason, and player's should have input on decisions about alteration to the rules.
|
|
A DM shouldn't be altering the rules as written without a clear, rational reason, and players should have input on decisions about alteration to the rules.
Fixed it for ya ;)
I wholeheartedly agree with that point. That being said, a DM's word should be the final word, and for the most part, the players should respect it (unless it's truly unreasonable, of course).
It's a fine line to walk. To paraphrase Lao Tzu, a DM should control the game (and therefore the players) in a way such that they don't feel like they are being controlled. It's all about (everyone) having fun and cooperating.
And now I've wandered far away from the point and the topic. Where am I?
|
|
Fixed it for ya ;)
It's an internet first, someone fixed a comment for someone else, and actually fixed it. Thanks for the catch. :)
I wholeheartedly agree with that point. That being said, a DM's word should be the final word, and for the most part, the players should respect it (unless it's truly unreasonable, of course).
Some players come to my game having been traumatized by DMs in the past. Some of them even display symptoms of what appears to be a mild form of Stockholm Syndrome. They are so used to abusive DM ruling they don't even remember that the DM has rules authority to cover the areas in the game where there are no rules (and even in rules heavy 3.5, my players find SOMETHING not covered by the rules every week), not to weaken the players and thus make his job easier.
The claim of the DM in this thread smacks of "nerfing" -- making a power less powerful because it's effective. Not game-breaking, just effective. Players should know they don't have to tolerate that. If a power is grossly over-effective and unbalancing, then putting it to a player vote whether to ban it will catch it.