I am playing a Paladin in our current Pathfinder campaign. While I am really impressed by the new Paladin class and intend on changing my character over from the D&D 3.5 handbook class but, I have one concern:
The Lay on Hands ability. Only healing HP equal to her level is not enough. Why not make it the same as the 3.5 PHB class and have the HP total equal to the Paladin level times her wisdom bonus? I play in a small group. There is only 2 or 3 PCs and 1 NPC so the extra HP healing comes in handy.
This is my feedback. More to come as I play.
The Lay on Hands ability. Only healing HP equal to her level is not enough. Why not make it the same as the 3.5 PHB class and have the HP total equal to the Paladin level times her wisdom bonus? I play in a small group. There is only 2 or 3 PCs and 1 NPC so the extra HP healing comes in handy.
The paladin can use this ability several times a day (1/2 level+cha bonus), so the total amount of healing is not that shabby. On the other hand I'm a little unclear as to whether a paladin can spend more than one use in a single round. If not, it's not very useful in combat.
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I note that you heal your level in hit points each time, and may use the ability 1/2 your level plus your Charisma modifier times each day. This is superior to the 3.5 version in that you gain more uses as you rise in level.
You don't have the option of dispensing mini heals, which were useful for stabilizing the dying, nor the all-at-once. It's a trade of less versatility for more overall healing, at least above 1st level. I think it's a good trade.
Not counting the improved versatility of the Lay on Hands when you reach higher levels: Remove Disease, Remove Curse or Neutralize Poison if you spend two uses of Lay on Hands, Break Enchantment if you spend three, and even Heal (!!!) when you spend four.
Not counting the improved versatility of the Lay on Hands when you reach higher levels: Remove Disease, Remove Curse or Neutralize Poison if you spend two uses of Lay on Hands, Break Enchantment if you spend three, and even Heal (!!!) when you spend four.
I'm not discounting the future uses of the abilities, just the amount. Is 18 points at 18th level enough even if you can do it 9 times a day? I'm 6th right now and I do my cha mod x my level = 24 points. I just think it would be more versatile if the times a day stayed the same but the amount was determined the old way. This is the way I'll be using it in our campaign. My DM has already approved it. I'll let you all know how it works out.
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Well if your an 18th level paladin, I expect you to have at least a 24 charisma, so that's 16 times per day. That means you can heal 150 hitpoints (using the heal version) 4 times per day. That's a lot of healing.I'm not discounting the future uses of the abilities, just the amount. Is 18 points at 18th level enough even if you can do it 9 times a day?
I would not complain about the amount of healing, but I think taking away the ability for a paladin to have useful healing in combat is a serious nerf for a fighting class.
I would rather that a paladin be allowed to spend a number of Lay On Hands uses when using the basic ability greater than one. This would allow in combat emergency heals before 18th level.
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This is my primary concern about the paladin as well.
Out of combat healing isn't a problem. In-combat is. Especially at 1st-2nd level where a single heal of a few hit points might make much more of a difference than a 1-2 point heal.
But don't forget the channel positive energy ability too, which you get at 4th level. It heals a bit more than a single lay on hands and heals multiple creatures.
I'd like to see the ability to use as many heal uses in one touch as the Cha mod. This would make the lay on hands equivalent to the old paladin (not counting the total uses per day). However, I have yet to playtest the paladin, so I don't know how this would throw things out of whack.
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what if it healed hp per level + cha, I've never seen a pal with a less than 16 cha, so that would at least heal 5 hp when used. at higher levels you'll be using it to cast heal so it doesn't matter that it is low then, but at low levels it should be at least able to heal one hits worth of damage.
But that would mean at 16th level a paladin with a 20 charisma is able to heal himself for 21 hit points, as a standard action. There is no way, at 16th level, that that is at all useful in combat.
While this doesn't make the paladin unplayable, I think it is a reasonable backwards compatibility concern - Paladins in 3.5 were known to have the ability to essentially give themselves one massive heal in the middle of battle. Now they don't have that anymore. That changes the role of a typical paladin in a typical fight scenario drastically.
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I also want to comment on the Lay on Hands ability. My Paladin PC recently died in a PbP facing off against a girallon. I could have escaped, but didn't feel that was right (you know, fearless Paladin and all). I looked to Lay On Hands to heal myself, but it would only heal 4hp instead of the 12hp it would have healed in 3.5 (and saved that character).
I'm not saying that the new revision is inherently bad; it does make Paladins more useful as healers. However, their combat healing ability which was very useful in 3.5 is practically useless now.
As mentioned previously in this thread, the ability to heal him/herself in the midst of combat was one of the Paladin's combat advantages when compared to the likes of a Fighter.
The rest of the class seems pretty good, though. I do like the increased amount of Smite Evils, and Divine Bond looks nice (didn't get a chance to try it out). I'll be sure to post again if I playtest another Paladin.
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For a 16th level paladin, his channel positive energy ability will heal 7d6 damage for all living creatures in a 30' burst. That and his lay on hands ability combine for serious healing.
I don't see a real problem here, but I'd give consideration to allowing multiple uses of lay on hands simultaneously. That would need playtesting, since that 16th level paladin would heal 16 hp per use, and have 8 + Cha mod uses per day, enough to one-shot a lich or other major undead.
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I don't see a real problem here, but I'd give consideration to allowing multiple uses of lay on hands simultaneously. That would need playtesting, since that 16th level paladin would heal 16 hp per use, and have 8 + Cha mod uses per day, enough to one-shot a lich or other major undead.
I would be okay with some sort of limit on uses per action. I believe someone suggested a limit of Cha Mod uses per standard action - essentially setting it to 3.5 values for a single heal. A 16 Cha 3rd level Paladin would be able to use 3 of his 4 uses at 3 hp each for 9 hp of healing, a 20 Cha 15th level Paladin could use 5 of his 12 uses at 15 hp each for 75 HP - again, a good use of a standard action for an in combat heal.
A paladin is a holy warrior - I think their healing ability should be somewhat combat useful, is all. Either that, or allow the healing portion of the Lay on Hands ability to be a move action or swift action, so the paladin can continue to fight as he heals himself each round.
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The Paladin should be able to heal more than just one lay-on hands a round if the amount of points healed is so low. I also think this will make the player change his tactics a bit and I think the tactics change is a good thing. One of the biggest attractions to the new character abilities is the buying of powers and setting up new tactics. In the past it was mostly spell casters that could effectively use different spells with different tactics to keep the GM guessing on how you would play out an encounter.
I do not think it is stated that the Lay on Hands healing is only usable in single doses for healing. In fact, if a paladin can spend multiple uses for various effects, it seems to make sense to allow a paladin to spend multiple uses for greater healing. This would be closer to the 3.5 version of "a little or all of it" lay on hands healing.
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I think Jess Door is on the right track her. I think that is the perfect solution.
Yeah Jess is on to something - I certainly agree that the amount of hit points being healed per use is too few and now worthy of spending a rounds standard action doing so - at higher levels when giving up your three attacks for the round just doesn't seem worth it.
At 5th level - healing five hit points is just seemingly pointless - especially with the emphasis in PF to have better hit points (thanks to the bonus at first level and bonus per favored class level).
There's got to be a better solution and formula for each one.
One idea we've been trying is 1d8 + Cha bonus per use of lay on hands. - and can use more than one lay on hand charge at once.
Thus a 10th level paladin can spend 5 lay on hand charges at one time to do 5d8 + (5 x cha mod)
Either way - it needs to be addressed I think.
Robert
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<snip> I mean a Cure Critical Wounds spell by a 10th level cleric heals 4d8+10 hps (28 hps average, max 42hps) a 10th level paladin with an 18 Charisma who uses 4 "charges" of lay on hands would heal 40 hps set. <snip> The cleric will only be ahead at 11th level when he gets Heal and then only until the paladin gets Heal also.
Not even going to mention how a paladin beats a druids healing ability hands down. Oh wait ooops I just did.
A 10th level cleric with a comparable 18 wisdom will have: 2 5th level spells, 4 4th level spells, 4 3rd level spells, 5 2nd level spells, 5 1st level spells available to him for the day. Each of which, at need, can be converted to a cure spell. The cleric also has full progression in Channel Energy. There are feats available to allow the cleric to use his healing from a range as well. The cleric will gain access to Heal next level.
The 10th level paladin with 18 charisma will have 9 Lay on Hands uses. With the proposed rule change allowing him to use his charisma modifier to determine the number of Lay on Hands uses he can use in a single action, he can heal himself or someone else he touches twice per day. He will probably have more Channel Energy uses than the cleric due to concentration on Charisma, but he channels as a cleric 3 levels lower. The paladin will gain access to Heal...in 8 levels.
The paladin hardly outsines the cleric in healing. Whether he outshines the druid is entirely up to the druid, and what spells the druid chose to memorize for the day.
I believe the paladin's role is to be a fighter type character with some access to holy power. I'll now examine how the paladin compares to other characters in the fighting role:
A paladin, in order to make use of his class abilities, has many stats he has to pay attention to. Charisma is important for spellcasting, smiting, Lay on Hands, Divine Grace, channeling energy. Strength is important for being a good fighter. It is made even more important by the changes to Power Attack - which used to be a feat a paladin could depend on for good extra damage when smiting increased his attack bonus. Constitution is important for good hit points for fighter types. Dexterity, Wisdom, and Intelligence should not be too low, but do not have to be as high as the other stats. Paladins were helped greatly by the reduction of their MAD with regard to Wisdom!
A paladin will not have access to the extra feats available to a fighter or ranger. What does he get to do his job, then?
Smite - I love the concept of smite. But it is simply adding your charisma modifier to attack for 1 round, and adding your level to damage. +20 damage usable 7 times per day is, frankly...useless. Thank goodness the smite attempt is no longer wasted if you miss...that keeps it from being too awful. Smite being able to also act like a banishment at 20th level is a good idea, but it's really too little too late.
Bonded Weapon or Mount: This either gives your paladin a mount - if you spend the feats, this is a viable route for a real iconic character - or a more powerful weapon. The ability to use the mount depends on your campaign, of course. The ability to use the weapon is very useful - it allows dungeon delving paladins to make good use of a class ability, and it saves the paladin some money in upgrading his weapons. This is a good bonus for paladins and helps keep them relevent.
In combat healing ability - this allows the paladin to keep standing when other fighter types might go down...if it provides useful amounts of healing. A paladin may not have access to the same feats or class abilities, and may only have the ability to do a little more damage a few times per day - but at least he can absorb more punishment without clerical backup than your typical fighter...right? Not with the current Lay on Hands ability. Healing himself for 10 hit points of damage at 10th level is not worth a standard action while embroiled in combat. Let's look at the paladin's options.
A 10th level paladin is down from his average of 96 hit points to 25. We'll say he's fighting something he knows to be evil, some demon or something. He can:
Lay on Hands and bring himself up to 35 hit points. Against a CR 10 creature...he might surivive another round. He can attempt to smite. Assuming he already powered up his bonded +3 greatsword with the Holy property, that would be an attack of +19 for damage of 4d6 + 19 (assuming he used bull strength on himself or something) or about 33 damage. Maybe he power attacks with smite for +15 attack, 4d6 + 27 (about 41 damage). If his opponent is not evil, subtract 4 from the attack bonuses and 10 from the damage of those attack options. He could channel energy. If he has selective channelling, he wouldn't heal his opponent either - that would give him 4d6 of healing - or about 14 hp - this will heal his companions as well if they're near him. He could use his one 3rd level spell, if he'd happened to memorize cure moderate wounds, for 2d8 + 5 healing - 14 again!
If the paladin does anything other than grit his teeth and attack, hoping he kills the enemy before he dies himself, he's going to have to retreat from battle and spend a few rounds attending to himself to even hope to get enough healing to wade back into the fray in a condition to fight again. He can stay in the fight like a fighter would and hope the cleric heals him up before he goes down, but that means his class abilities don't help him fulfill his role in the party. Instead he's just fighter light, with some handy healing to be had outside of combat.
If, on the other hand, Lay on Hands could be used as a swift action, the paladin could heal himself for only a measly 10 hit points, but he'd still be able to attack, or move and attack, or charge. This would operate almost as if he had 10 temporary hit points, renewable each round until he ran out of Lay on Hand uses. Or maybe he can use a number of Lay on Hand uses equal to his charisma modifier as a standard action for 40 points of healing mid-combat. That would at least make it a choice between somewhat comparable standard action uses.
As is, the concept of the paladin is a holy warrior, bouyed by his god and fearless in the face of the enemy - but his healing abilities simply don't allow him to fulfill that concept on the battlefield.
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Paladins are jacks of all trade classes in the same way that bards are. they're good at what they do in dabbling everywhere, but should not be better than the specialist classes.
I am seriously confused by this idea. In what way do you see Paladins as jacks of all trades?
Paladins fight. They generally fight evil. They also tend to have a large force of personality. I don't see paladins that are skillmancers - or spell slingers. You could make a much better argument that Rangers are jacks of all trades - at least they have the skill points to back that claim up, though their spellcasting is just as ineffectual as the Paladin's. The difference in party role between a fighter and a paladin is a difference in flavor - not in general role.
Paladins are fighters without the fighter's flexibility of fighting style, and with defensive capabilities/staying power added via to save bonuses, immunities, and healing.
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Could we better simulate the divine support provided to the paladin by allowing him to spend multiple lay on hands charges for restoring hitpoints in a single round, but only when healing himself?
I am totally cool with that. I am mostly concerned with how the changes to a paladin's Lay on Hands fundamentally changes the way a paladin will play - and thus causes problems with 3.5 modules that use paladins, because their in combat role and capabilities are fundamentally changed.
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Hey, my namesake was a Dwarf cleric of Bast, chosen by the goddess herself! His priestly duties were to sample the physical pleasures of the world whenever he could, and to pet cats, so except for the cats, Kradlo didn't change a bit. In fact, he made nine player character converts!
Back to the topic, I'm in favor of Jess Door's solution, and I'd allow it both for healing himself, his allies, or for damaging undead.
To reinforce this idea: If you do nothing else, consider making the Paladin's Lay On Hands a swift action. I play a Paladin in PFRPG Beta. Being able to do little bits of buck up healing while still fighting would encourage me to be more of the lawful supporter of the party than joining the mad rush to slay the evil ones as quickly as possible.
In a recent combat, use of the positive energy burst by myself and my cohort priestess kept the party going in the face of a very tough boss level encounter. It meant I was not swinging away at the enemy for most of the fight, but our party was able to maintain a respectable amount of damage dealt.
Positive energy burst is a powerful adjustment to the playing field.
I think the swift action heal instead of a standard action is the best all around solution. It doesn't make the pally a healbot but its more useful in combat (especially combined with fighting in total defense or using a withdraw action).
<snip> I mean a Cure Critical Wounds spell by a 10th level cleric heals 4d8+10 hps (28 hps average, max 42hps) a 10th level paladin with an 18 Charisma who uses 4 "charges" of lay on hands would heal 40 hps set. <snip> The cleric will only be ahead at 11th level when he gets Heal and then only until the paladin gets Heal also.
Not even going to mention how a paladin beats a druids healing ability hands down. Oh wait ooops I just did.
A 10th level cleric with a comparable 18 wisdom will have: 2 5th level spells, 4 4th level spells, 4 3rd level spells, 5 2nd level spells, 5 1st level spells available to him for the day. Each of which, at need, can be converted to a cure spell. The cleric also has full progression in Channel Energy. There are feats available to allow the cleric to use his healing from a range as well. The cleric will gain access to Heal next level.
The 10th level paladin with 18 charisma will have 9 Lay on Hands uses. With the proposed rule change allowing him to use his charisma modifier to determine the number of Lay on Hands uses he can use in a single action, he can heal himself or someone else he touches twice per day. He will probably have more Channel Energy uses than the cleric due to concentration on Charisma, but he channels as a cleric 3 levels lower. The paladin will gain access to Heal...in 8 levels.
The paladin hardly outsines the cleric in healing. Whether he outshines the druid is entirely up to the druid, and what spells the druid chose to memorize for the day.
I believe the paladin's role is to be a fighter type character with some access to holy power. I'll now examine how the paladin compares to other characters in the fighting role:
A paladin, in order to make use of his class abilities, has many stats he has to pay attention to. Charisma is important for spellcasting, smiting, Lay on Hands, Divine Grace, channeling energy. Strength is important for being a good fighter. It is made even more important by the changes to...
I think Jess's route is the best. I hope we see it in the final release.
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If, on the other hand, Lay on Hands could be used as a swift action, the paladin could heal himself for only a measly 10 hit points, but he'd still be able to attack, or move and attack, or charge. This would operate almost as if he had 10 temporary hit points, renewable each round until he ran out of Lay on Hand uses. Or maybe he can use a number of Lay on Hand uses equal to his charisma modifier as a standard action for 40 points of healing mid-combat. That would at least make it a choice between somewhat comparable standard action uses.
I think this is a marvelous idea. Swift action would make multiple uses of a weaker version of Lay on Hands more relevant, and encourage strategic use of the ability, and would also make it quite useful vs. undead (i.e. swift 10 more points of damage into your sword swing at 10th level 9 times a day is not shabby...) I think I would even make it a free action and not a swift action: that way if you have high BAB you can use Lay on Hands multiple times per round (i.e. once per swing)
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The "New" way is better, that being the most recently (that I know of anyway) released redesign of the Paladin found here.
You'll find that the above mentioned problems are pretty well solved. The Paladin can heal themselves as a Swift action and others as a standard. Also the healing is greatly improved over the Beta's version (ie 2 hp/ level) as the player rolls 1d6/2 levels (its a give and take statistically. The average of the d6 being 3.5 you are ahead on even levels and behind on odd levels) The part I like is the swift action to heal yourself. It no longer becomes a zero sum game.
I think Paladins should be able to provide meaningful healing in combat but also I dont think a paladin should out heal a cleric in one shot.I think this is the crux of the matter: What is the expected role of a Paladin vs. what is the expected role of a cleric.
Clerics in 3.5 should not be in-combat healers after about level 1 and until heal becomes available. All versions of cure wounds are inefficient in comparison with amount of HPs that attacks from level-appropriate enemies' can remove and quickly drain cleric's high-level spell slots. Therefore, clerics should spend their actions on better things. Even casting heal means a wasted opportunity, but it, at least, actually can keep someone alive. Channel energy is no good for the same reason. Well, it doesn't drain spell slots, but the amout healed is still negligible compared with enemies' damage potential. (Note, that the above might not be immediately apparent in battles where PCs are, more or less, assured of curbstomping the opposition, such as wnen they fight against just a single enemy of CR equal to the party's level, or enemies intended for four PCs with a party of six. It will be quite obvious in actually challenging battles, where tactics do matter.)
And out-of-combat healing, as we all know, is and will be handled by wands of cure light wounds that PCs buy or craft on their spare change. Therefore, a class ability that grants out-of-combat healing is strictly and undeniably worse than a class abilitiy.Summary: expected role of cleric is the actual combat is to kick ass, maybe to throw round/level party buffs (if you have non-core material, those in core usually suck) either with spells or in melee. Healing is very much secondary. Druid should not heal at all, because he sucks at it and rocks at many other things. Allowing other classes to restore a large chunk of HPs in combat does not step on their toes. Unless the healing ability restores a large chunk of HPs, it should be a free action. Otherwise, all it does is saving a negligible amount of money.
The "New" way is better, that being the most recently (that I know of anyway) released redesign of the Paladin found here.
This is so much better than the old variant.
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Though I would hesitate to require him laying his hands on himself to perform this act in combat. Something about "touching himself to feel better" just appeals to my sillier side.
"I don't worship anybody else,
When I think about you,I touch myself...(whoah-oa-oh)"
I know that was how it was done in 3.x, but it really makes me giggle at the thought of a Paladin of Bast trying to heal himself in battle against the evil warlord.
HOLY AXIOMATIC HAIRBALL FOR THE SNEAK ATTACK!