k, I've read a couple posts on how to fix multi-classing and I think this needs a wider discussion. Specifically...
#1 Do you see a problem the way it works now, especially for Fighting Class/Spellcasting Class combos?
#2 Do you think that a new way of computing any of the following are in order?
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Caster Level
Level at which a character can cast a certain Spell Level
Difficulty Class for saving vs a spell
#3 What, if any, existing mechanics are there to address this issue? For example: Feats? More Prestige Classes?
#4 If, by addressing multi-classing, we are making these characters more powerful than their single-class counterparts, is this worth it?
My opinion is that multi-classing only runs into a problem with spellcasting classes. If you run the numbers for BAB and Saves for various multiclass combos, things seem fine. Only Caster Level and spell save DC are lacking.
What is the problem with multiclassing? could someone explain this to me. I see alot of people posting saying it should be fixed but I for one have never saw anything wrong with it.
My first attempt got munched ... so let's have another go.
As someone who runs primarily multiclassed characters, my question is "what about multiclassing needs fixing?" Having played innumerable iterations of D&D, I think 3rd (whichever form) has the best approach to multiclassing.
People need to note the title of veector's post and heed it. If you are unwilling to give up specialty, being really good at one or a few things, for versatility, being ok to pretty good at several things, you probably aren't getting the intent behind multiclassing in the first place (and you probably don't multiclass anyway). Multiclass players are willing to be the poor man's jack-of-all-trades and be the master-of-none.
I don't actually think there need to be changes to the list of things the OP has provided. I think a character moving out of a BAB heavy class for a BAB light one *should* feel the sting of a decreased BAB. Similarly, a spellcaster who multi's should (and probably is if they're playing to the spirit of it) have to live with not getting to cast those highest level spells. That's the payment players must pay for diversification. Those of us willing to cough over the proverbial cash understand that.
The only disparity I've ever had to deal with is the extra +2 on saves (usually my Will) I would get from that first level of a new class. Of course, that generally has the balance of yet another +0 with a slower progression in a different save (usually Reflex it seems for me). This balances out to me even if it means I have an uber-Will save ... it's balanced out by the woeful Reflex save. One way or another, they're gonna get me ... as it should be for a colorful story.
The one thing I think many people worry about with multiclass dipping is the one or two levels here or there. Well, that's what the XP penalty for level disparity is for. It has always made me be considerate of how I would progress each class ... if for no other reason than to avoid taking the hit. Now that Favored Class goes toward something else, that rule becomes much more binding ... which I think is outrageously good.
My only complaint out of the OP's list is spell DC, but I think that's a whole different issue for me. I think it needs to be figured differently for everyone, not just multi's .... but that's a whole different thread (or two or three or ... what is it now? 5? 6?) on these boards.
What is the problem with multiclassing? could someone explain this to me. I see alot of people posting saying it should be fixed but I for one have never saw anything wrong with it.
Ok ... so you were far more succinct than me. So sue me. I'm trying to get ready for classes to start back up.
Me agree wit da grey beard!
What is the problem with multiclassing? could someone explain this to me. I see alot of people posting saying it should be fixed but I for one have never saw anything wrong with it.
The problems are more visible if you create a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 character. This is ostensibly, a very powerful level 20 character, but most monsters the character would face would laugh at the saving throws necessary against 5th level spells cast by the character.
So a major component of the character, combat spellcasting, becomes virtually useless at higher levels.
The problems are more visible if you create a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 character. This is ostensibly, a very powerful level 20 character, but most monsters the character would face would laugh at the saving throws necessary against 5th level spells cast by the character.So a major component of the character, combat spellcasting, becomes virtually useless at higher levels.
Well, *anybody's* 5th level spells become laughable. I don't think that's a multiclass problem so much as a problem in how spell DCs are figured. If 5th level spells become useless after, say, 14th character level (to pick a randomly higher number), why even pick any of them for the day no matter what level caster you are. The DCs should be based on caster level not spell level.
Of course, this is where your point becomes heightened. This is why the feat Practiced Spellcaster should be much more common and the multiclasser, if their concept leans toward this, should be picking spells/feats/etc that would make up for the lack. Things like Practiced Spellcaster, which boosts Effective Caster Level, or Spell Focus, which boosts DC, help balance the save/caster check disparity. Using rays or touch spells can tend to help avoid the whole save issue as well in many cases.
#1: Not really, although it's handy to have access to the non-Core feat "Practised Spellcaster".
#2: If it were up to me, I'd use the fractional BAB and fractional save variants from Unearthed Arcana, but I'm happy enough having those as variants instead.
#3: Prestige classes (like Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight, or Unseen Seer) and (non-Core) feats like Practised Spellcaster or Ascetic Rogue do a good enough job, IMO.
#4: Multiclassed characters shouldn't be more powerful than single-classed characters, generally speaking.
#1 Do you see a problem the way it works now, especially for Fighting Class/Spellcasting Class combos?
#2 Do you think that a new way of computing any of the following are in order?
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Caster Level
Level at which a character can cast a certain Spell Level
Difficulty Class for saving vs a spell#3 What, if any, existing mechanics are there to address this issue? For example: Feats? More Prestige Classes?
#4 If, by addressing multi-classing, we are making these characters more powerful than their single-class counterparts, is this worth it?
#3: Prestige classes (like Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight, or Unseen Seer) and (non-Core) feats like Practised Spellcaster or Ascetic Rogue do a good enough job, IMO.
Do you think it's better to put these into the PFRPG Rulebook?
#3: Prestige classes (like Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight, or Unseen Seer) and (non-Core) feats like Practised Spellcaster or Ascetic Rogue do a good enough job, IMO.Do you think it's better to put these into the PFRPG Rulebook?
Sure, and I think that's the intent (at least for Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge); they just ran out of time and room to put it in the Beta.
Sure, and I think that's the intent (at least for Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge); they just ran out of time and room to put it in the Beta.#3: Prestige classes (like Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight, or Unseen Seer) and (non-Core) feats like Practised Spellcaster or Ascetic Rogue do a good enough job, IMO.Do you think it's better to put these into the PFRPG Rulebook?
Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight are good because they are fairly generic (no specific feat chains or Gods worshipped etc). I think we need a better multiclassing system so we can handle odd ducks like a Cleric/Rogue or Bard/Barbarian (Bardbarian) without having to search through 9 different splat books.
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IMO, many of the 'problems' with multiclassing are fixable with optional rules from Unearthed Arcana, such as Fractional BABs and Saves (p 73) and Magic Rating (p 135-136).
Combined with class variants (like the Thug Fighter or the Cloistered Cleric) and alternate class features (such as the Holy Warrior feat in the PFCS) and feats like Practised Spellcaster, I think the game already has an assortment of ways to make multi-classing work pretty darn well.
The problems are more visible if you create a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 character. This is ostensibly, a very powerful level 20 character, but most monsters the character would face would laugh at the saving throws necessary against 5th level spells cast by the character.
So a major component of the character, combat spellcasting, becomes virtually useless at higher levels.
Useless? Hardly. I played a fighter sorcerer once ánd got as far as sor7/ftr6 before the group had to split. My saves were awesome. No problem, acctually I thought they were even better than those in the group who just had one class (not as versatile).
As to the spellcasting I used alot of shapeshifting spells and gasform. Some spells at lower levels never go out of style.
Oh god. Did anyone ever actually really TRY making a 10th level Fighter/10th level wizard? It's like the sasquatch. Everybody says they've seen it, but nobody has proof it exists.
I'm playing in a campaign that started in 3.0. There was a 50%/50% fighter/wizard and a 50%/50% druid/monk (character level was 12ish, not 20, though). We eventually retooled some of the characters, though (fighter/wizard => duskblade, e.g.).
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The problems are more visible if you create a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 character. This is ostensibly, a very powerful level 20 character, but most monsters the character would face would laugh at the saving throws necessary against 5th level spells cast by the character.
So a major component of the character, combat spellcasting, becomes virtually useless at higher levels.
Useless? Hardly. I played a fighter sorcerer once ánd got as far as sor7/ftr6 before the group had to split. My saves were awesome. No problem, acctually I thought they were even better than those in the group who just had one class (not as versatile).
As to the spellcasting I used alot of shapeshifting spells and gasform. Some spells at lower levels never go out of style.
This has always seemed a no-brainer to me (though I do like multiclassing PrCs). If you're going to play a warrior/caster, you cast the spells on targets that aren't going to WANT to save against them (buffing yourself and your allies, making your group better at fighting, sneaking, etc.) rather than trying to blast your foes with arcane power.
The problems are more visible if you create a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 character. This is ostensibly, a very powerful level 20 character, but most monsters the character would face would laugh at the saving throws necessary against 5th level spells cast by the character.
So a major component of the character, combat spellcasting, becomes virtually useless at higher levels.
Useless? Hardly. I played a fighter sorcerer once ánd got as far as sor7/ftr6 before the group had to split. My saves were awesome. No problem, acctually I thought they were even better than those in the group who just had one class (not as versatile).
As to the spellcasting I used alot of shapeshifting spells and gasform. Some spells at lower levels never go out of style.
So assuming a 16 CHA score for a Sorcerer, a 7th lvl Sorcerer has 3rd level spells. For example, that sorcerer casting Fireball has a save DC of 10 + 3 CHA + 3 Spell Lvl = 16
Some sample monsters:
CR13 - Glabrezu - Fort +18, Ref +8, Will +11
CR11 - Elder Water Elemental - Fort +19, Ref +16, Will +10
CR11 - Adult Black Dragon - Fort +15, Ref +11, Will +12
CR12 - Kraken - Fort +21, Ref +12, Will +13
CR13 - Storm Giant - Fort +17, Ref +8, Will +13
If you're ok with the save that these creatures have vs a 3rd Level Spell with a Character Level of 13, then that's fine. However, if you were a straight sorcerer class, the save for a 6th Level spell would be 19.
If no one else sees a problem here, look at the same numbers at higher levels, it's not just the saving throw DC, but also the maximum damage done by spells of lower level won't even be a blip to higher level creatures.
1. I do see a bit of a problem. It seems to be expected that (in my experience), if you multiclass a spellcaster class with any other class, that you are looking at going as fast as you can into the appropriate prestige class.
2. The thing that most needs some help is the caster level (both the power of the spells and what the most powerful spell you can cast).
3. There are feats that improve the abilities of two classes (especially for non-spellcasting combinations, by saying that for the abilities the levels in the class stack for determining it's power. Also, there are feats that just improve the abilities of your class that multiclassers find useful, like giving you an extra use of rage per day (which is useful because you had very few uses as a multi-classed character).
There are prestige classes that require you to have certain abilities from, often, a pair of classes. It then improves a few of the abilities from each class at a faster rate than just multiclassing between them would produce. These are most common for combinations that either one or both of the combined classes are spellcasting classes.
I am fine with having feats and prestige classes serve as the fix for prestige classes. However, they seem to take more and more space as time goes on. While a few prestige classes can be used for multiple combinations (A mystic theurge can be wizard/cleric, sorcerer/cleric, wizard/druid, sorcerer/druid, and so on), some combinations don't work well (A mystic theurge can also be a bard/cleric) so a new prestige class is made for that combination (and another for that one, and another that other one, ...).
I would rather make it so a prestige class was not an automatic choice for multiclassing. I would like it if the space that would be spent on combine a class with another class features was instead spent on something else.
Gestalt rules from Unearthed Arcana also exist. This is less of a multiclassing fix and more of an alternate rule that causes all characters to be multiclass, but I felt it should be mentioned.
4. I feel that it is not worth it if multi-classed character become stronger than single-classed characters. If that happens, it becomes more like an optional rule like gestalt where all characters are expected to be multiclassed.
A couple question for posters that think multiclassing is fine as it is.
Are multiclassed characters that don't use prestige classes powerful enough?
Elditch Knight
HP (average, no constitution added): 53
Base Attack Bonus: +13
Base Fort: +9
Base Ref: +3
Base Will: +7
Spellcaster level: 14
2 combat feats
1 wizard feat
***
16th level: Fighter 8/Wizard 8
HP (average, no constitution added): 64
Base Attack Bonus: +12
Base Fort: +8
Base Ref: +4
Base Will: +8
Spellcaster level: 8
5 combat feats
1 wizard feat
***
The major differences I see are
* Eldritch knight can cast 7th level spells.
Fighter/Wizard can cast 4th level spells.
* Fighter/Wizard has 11 more hit points and three more combat feats.
Mystic Theurge
HP (average, no constitution added): 46
Base Attack Bonus: +8
Base Fort: +7
Base Ref: +5
Base Will: +13
Arcane Spellcaster level: 13
Divine Spellcaster level: 13
***
16th level: Wizard 8/Cleric 8
HP (average, no constitution added): 56
Base Attack Bonus: +10
Base Fort: +8
Base Ref: +4
Base Will: +12
Arcane Spellcaster level: 8
Divine Spellcaster level: 8
1 wizard feat
***
The major differences I see are
* Mystic theurge can cast 7th level spells from both spell lists.
Wizard/Cleric can cast 4th level spells from both spell lists.
* Wizard/Cleric has 10 more hit points, one more wizard feat, and has a base attack bonus of 2 higher.
Arcane Trickster
HP (average, no constitution added): 48
Skill points (no intelligence added, x4 level 1 bonus ignored): 74
Base Attack Bonus: +9
Base Fort: +5
Base Ref: +11
Base Will: +12
Spellcaster level: 15
trapfinding, evasion, and trap sense +1
+7d6 sneak attack
1 wizard feat
Impromptu sneak attack and ranged legerdemain
***
18th level: Rogue 9/Wizard 9
HP (average, no constitution added): 54
Skill points (no intelligence added, x4 level 1 bonus ignored): 90
Base Attack Bonus: +10
Base Fort: +6
Base Ref: +9
Base Will: +9
Spellcaster level: 9
trapfinding, evasion, trap sense +3, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge
+5d6 sneak attack
1 wizard feat
***
The major differences I see are
* Arcane trickster can cast 8th level spells.
Rogue/Wizard can cast 5th level spells.
* Arcane trickster has +2 to reflex, +3 to will, and +2d6 sneak attack.
Rogue/Wizard has 6 more hit points, 16 more skill points, a slightly better base attack bonus and fort save.
* Arcane trickster has all the arcane trickster class abilities
Rogue/Wizard has a +2 to trap sense, uncanny dodge (improved and classic)
Honestly while the characters that don't use prestige classes seem to gain few small bonuses here and there, it always seems that the prestige class is always going to be better by quite a bit.
If just multiclassing between two classes is really just fine, why are the presitige classed characters more powerful by so much?
Are they overpowered?
If they are not overpowered, then how is just multiclassing fine by itself?
Just to Clarify you are saying that if you go Fighter/Wizard or Sorcerer you should have the same DC as a single class wizard. Well if you put all your ability points into your main stat INT/Charisma then you would have the same DC for the same level spell.
I see no reason to give a Multiclasser a Boost to make him better than a single class. With that low DC you still have a Higher BAB to go along with it. I guess I never multiclass much so do not see a problem with giving up certain things for the versatility to cast spells.
Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight are good because they are fairly generic (no specific feat chains or Gods worshipped etc).
But should prestige classes just be generic? Wouldn't it be better to have a system that lets a Cleric/Wizard work just as well, so that we can have non-generic multiclassing prestige classes?
I think we need a better multiclassing system so we can handle odd ducks like a Cleric/Rogue or Bard/Barbarian (Bardbarian) without having to search through 9 different splat books.
I agree.
If just multiclassing between two classes is really just fine, why are the presitige classed characters more powerful by so much?
Are they overpowered?
If they are not overpowered, then how is just multiclassing fine by itself?
When I say "multiclassing between two classes is fine", I certainly don't mean "every possible multiclass combination involving two classes is roughly as good as either single class alone". So I think it's a bit of a red herring to say that a rogue 9/wizard 9 is lousy, when it's perfectly possible to create a rogue 1/wizard 17 (a trapfinding wizard) or a rogue 17/wizard 1 (a rogue with a little bit of magic), which are perfectly fine builds (IMO). But for the people who genuinely want to build a "half-'n'-half" character, there are prestige classes like Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight.
Now, I wouldn't be averse to having three generic classes -- a generic spellcaster/spellcaster class, a generic spellcaster/fighter class, and a generic spellcaster/rogue class -- instead of limiting Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight to arcane spellcasters.
If just multiclassing between two classes is really just fine, why are the presitige classed characters more powerful by so much?
Are they overpowered?
If they are not overpowered, then how is just multiclassing fine by itself?
When I say "multiclassing between two classes is fine", I certainly don't mean "every possible multiclass combination involving two classes is roughly as good as either single class alone". So I think it's a bit of a red herring to say that a rogue 9/wizard 9 is lousy, when it's perfectly possible to create a rogue 1/wizard 17 (a trapfinding wizard) or a rogue 17/wizard 1 (a rogue with a little bit of magic), which are perfectly fine builds (IMO). But for the people who genuinely want to build a "half-'n'-half" character, there are prestige classes like Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight.
Now, I wouldn't be averse to having three generic classes -- a generic spellcaster/spellcaster class, a generic spellcaster/fighter class, and a generic spellcaster/rogue class -- instead of limiting Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight to arcane spellcasters.
Alright, I see what you are saying.
I don't really have a problem with the power if you just have one level in class. I agree that they are perfectly fine builds. I just have it stuck in my mind that having one level out of twenty be for a second class is not really multiclassing; just like how I feel having 1 rank in Open Lock at 20th level doesn't mean you're trained at picking locks. I mean, you are multiclassing or trained by the rules, but it is not how I feel the word is used.
My problem is with going half-n-half. If possible, I would like to be of a reasonable power for my level without going into a prestige class. I would like multiclassed prestige classes to be for specific organizations with their own unique abilities rather than be generic.
I am fine with using prestige classes though, I just would prefer to find a way to not be dependent on them when going half and half.
So assuming a 16 CHA score for a Sorcerer, a 7th lvl Sorcerer has 3rd level spells. For example, that sorcerer casting Fireball has a save DC of 10 + 3 CHA + 3 Spell Lvl = 16Some sample monsters:
CR13 - Glabrezu - Fort +18, Ref +8, Will +11
CR11 - Elder Water Elemental - Fort +19, Ref +16, Will +10
CR11 - Adult Black Dragon - Fort +15, Ref +11, Will +12
CR12 - Kraken - Fort +21, Ref +12, Will +13
CR13 - Storm Giant - Fort +17, Ref +8, Will +13If you're ok with the save that these creatures have vs a 3rd Level Spell with a Character Level of 13, then that's fine. However, if you were a straight sorcerer class, the save for a 6th Level spell would be 19.
If no one else sees a problem here, look at the same numbers at higher levels, it's not just the saving throw DC, but also the maximum damage done by spells of lower level won't even be a blip to higher level creatures.
I'd like to point out two things with this:
First, when comparing the save for a 6th level spell with a primary stat of 16 - I.E DC 19 - the Glabrezu never fails a fort save versus that, makes his reflex save 45% of the time and the will save 60% of the time.The elder water elemental makes the save: fort always, reflex 85% of the time, will save 65% of the time.
Adult Black dragon: fort 80% of the time, rflex 60% of the time, will save 65% of the time.
Kraken: Fort always - has to roll a negative 2 to fail, reflex save 65% of the time, and will save 70% of the time.
Storm giant: Fort 90% of the time, reflex 45% of the time, Will save 65% of the time.
I think the problem here isn't the level of the spell being cast, but the 16 in the primary stat.
The second thing I'd like to point out is that if you are a gish then your spells really shouldn't be your primary method of offense. Thats whey you took levels in smash face class. Your spells are aimed at making you better at smashing face, in which case your looking to buffs as your primary spells. Alternatively, you choose smash face class levels to bolster your base attack which you use for delivering touch attack spells. In either case, spell level and save aren't as important duration and other cast level dependent effects.
What I would like to see for mutliclassing is a means to better combine my class choices. Things like ascetic rogue and swift hunter are great for this. If we came up with a feat that was similar to that for each base class combination then we'd have 144 multiclassing feats. Personally i also think having 144 extra feats in my PF-PHB is a great idea. (Honest, if it is bigger then the NY phone, and that is actual content and not white space that is just peachy) However I also recognize that may not be feasible. perhaps a multi-teared approach is in order. A mechanic that allows caster level to increase when multiclassed, like this : http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/magicRating.htm combined with some feats for tother combinations, rogue ranger, fighter rogue, monk paladin, paladin barbarian, etc and some eldritch night, mystic theurge, lyricist prestige classes to round things out with. Just a thought though.
1: Not really, although it's handy to have access to the non-Core feat "Practised Spellcaster".#2: If it were up to me, I'd use the fractional BAB and fractional save variants from Unearthed Arcana, but I'm happy enough having those as variants instead.
#3: Prestige classes (like Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight, or Unseen Seer) and (non-Core) feats like Practised Spellcaster or Ascetic Rogue do a good enough job, IMO.
#4: Multiclassed characters shouldn't be more powerful than single-classed characters, generally speaking.
I agree with hogarth on these points. Also, as others have mentioned, when you multiclass with a pure caster I believe you should use the spells as utility (invisibility, fly, etc.) and for self buffs and NOT for offense (at least primarily). When you approach multiclassing this way you can create a pretty effective character using the core rules (and core PrC's such as the Eldritch Knight in the case of a fighter/wizard).
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Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight are good because they are fairly generic (no specific feat chains or Gods worshipped etc).But should prestige classes just be generic? Wouldn't it be better to have a system that lets a Cleric/Wizard work just as well, so that we can have non-generic multiclassing prestige classes?
I think we need a better multiclassing system so we can handle odd ducks like a Cleric/Rogue or Bard/Barbarian (Bardbarian) without having to search through 9 different splat books.I agree.
hey i resent that! i did a rogue/cleric of a god of rogues... i had lots of fun
i did a cleric/wizard aiming for true necromancer... oh how she sucked at tacking... and here spells were weak, but i sitll loved her and loved how versatile she could be :Di did a ranger/cleric aiming to hunt undead using arrows (yes there was a feat around there that let you made criticals to undeads, and we were planning to create a prestigue class that let me pt "disruption" (disrupting the flow of life or unlife energy) in arrows instead of hammers) came back home before that
i have seen a sorcer/wizard use his spells so well and so many that he was a warmachine, even if his DC were low, he literally could make rain fall from the sky in maximised fireballs!
hey i resent that! i did a rogue/cleric of a god of rogues... i had lots of fun
i did a cleric/wizard aiming for true necromancer... oh how she sucked at tacking... and here spells were weak, but i sitll loved her and loved how versatile she could be :D
i did a ranger/cleric aiming to hunt undead using arrows (yes there was a feat around there that let you made criticals to undeads, and we were planning to create a prestigue class that let me pt "disruption" (disrupting the flow of life or unlife energy) in arrows instead of hammers) came back home before thati have seen a sorcer/wizard use his spells so well and so many that he was a warmachine, even if his DC were low, he literally could make rain fall from the sky in maximised fireballs!
I'm definitely NOT saying you shouldn't play what you want to play. I just want every pair of classes to be able to contribute, like your Cleric/Wizard should have spells almost as powerful as a Cleric or Wizard of equal level. I'd also like it if I didn't have to scrounge through multitudes of sourcebooks to make a combination work, like where would I find a feat that lets me crit undead.
I think the problem here isn't the level of the spell being cast, but the 16 in the primary stat.
I don't think it's unreasonable for a multiclass character to have a 16 in their spellcasting attribute. If you're multiclassing, you're likely to have to make sacrifices there too.
And I don't assume that a multiclass character should have a save DC the same as single-classed, but what jumps out is that spells go up on a more logarithmic progression in power and fighting attributes seem more linear.
One thing I'd like to see would be a line concerning multiple class feature gain (I don't remember if there are any such things outside core classes (trapfinding? evasion?), but single rule to govern them all would be fine, especially for splat books and homemade classes).
I'm playing a 3.5 Barbarian / Rogue and I get Bbn Uncanny dodge, then Uncanny dodge from rogue... okay, I get improved uncanny dodge, and then... improved uncanny dodge for third and fourth time?
I can houserule an extra feat to relace that, but having something official would be good.
I think the problem here isn't the level of the spell being cast, but the 16 in the primary stat.I don't think it's unreasonable for a multiclass character to have a 16 in their spellcasting attribute. If you're multiclassing, you're likely to have to make sacrifices there too.
And I don't assume that a multiclass character should have a save DC the same as single-classed, but what jumps out is that spells go up on a more logarithmic progression in power and fighting attributes seem more linear.
Fair enough. Although when I mult class a mage/smash face i generally aim to have two good stats to do it with. In the case of fighter/wizard I'd go str/int, rogue/socerer would be dex/Cha. I aim the stats to both be synergistic with the classes, say wisdom for clerics, and monks. But when a scrifice has to be made i do it to the smash face stat since that can always be brought up easier via magic.
And you are absolutely correct. Spell power has exponential growth, while smash face power is linier. Thats one of the rreasons why magic is so much more powerful then nonmagic.
Interesting that I missed this entire thread before posting a new one about how to fix core 3.5 mechanics. It's still... processing, or whatever new threads do before they appear.
What is the problem with multiclassing? could someone explain this to me. I see alot of people posting saying it should be fixed but I for one have never saw anything wrong with it.The problems are more visible if you create a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 character. This is ostensibly, a very powerful level 20 character, but most monsters the character would face would laugh at the saving throws necessary against 5th level spells cast by the character.
So a major component of the character, combat spellcasting, becomes virtually useless at higher levels.
But that is the price a Wizard pays for only being really a 10th level vs a 20th level. As a 10/10 multiclass character is not going to be as potent at either class as if they were a 20th level of a single class. There's nothing wrong with that. It's a trade off for the specialized training of two totally different skills sets. They both take time to develop and to cultivate into powerful tools, by splitting time between them neither of them are going to be as powerful as both of them could be if they were taken alone without the other. That's perfectly logical and reasonable. It does create some problems for the 20th level character against a 20th level monster, but it also gives them a lot more versatility and surprises for that monster to handle than a 20th level fighter or a 20th level wizard alone would present.