DM TPK's page

DM TPK wrote:

I think the problem here isn't the level of the spell being cast, but the 16 in the primary stat.

I don't think it's unreasonable for a multiclass character to have a 16 in their spellcasting attribute. If you're multiclassing, you're likely to have to make sacrifices there too.

And I don't assume that a multiclass character should have a save DC the same as single-classed, but what jumps out is that spells go up on a more logarithmic progression in power and fighting attributes seem more linear.

Fair enough. Although when I mult class a mage/smash face i generally aim to have two good stats to do it with. In the case of fighter/wizard I'd go str/int, rogue/socerer would be dex/Cha. I aim the stats to both be synergistic with the classes, say wisdom for clerics, and monks. But when a scrifice has to be made i do it to the smash face stat since that can always be brought up easier via magic.

And you are absolutely correct. Spell power has exponential growth, while smash face power is linier. Thats one of the rreasons why magic is so much more powerful then nonmagic.

Frankly, they should take a look at the 4E Powers. They're really easy to read.

And ugly as all sin. The 4e powers format makes the books look like one of those video game walk through mags you buy at EB games. It really is a big turn off for me.

Shisumo wrote:

I'm a dwarf cleric. Aw man, I already get Profession skills as class skill - my Profession (stone stuff) racial ability is useless! I should get a Skill Focus feat!

It's not a question of abilities useful to a class and not to others, it's a question of a balanced standard among races.

Consider the 4E races. Every race, sans human, get +2 to 2 skills. Humans get +1 bonus trained skill instead (An effective +5 to one skill, but without becoming better than other races in it.)

Now, imagine if instead, all races go +2 to 2 skills, except Half-Elves who got +2 to Diplomacy but not to a second skill. Everyone would just be tilting their had and saying "wait... why only to one skill?" Unless there were other balance factors blatantly at play, it just wouldn't make sense.

I'm not asking to power up fighters. I'm asking for a standardized Weapon Familiarity, in which familiarity works mostly the same for all races, or at least in which the Human benefit is NOT useless to the classes that the Dwarven and Elven benefit is best for (Paladins, Fighters, Rangers, and Barbarians who get free Waraxe/Curveblade proficiency)

Human Bastard Sword FTW.

This is were the big difference lies. Other racial warroirs do get an exotic weapon pro. I agree human bastard sword for the win.

The Paizo staff have asked for our help in making the game better. They want to hear what you want to say about the monk. But they won't.

One man (Jason) is mostly responsible for listening to all of our feedback. If we type thousands of posts on topics that he isn't working on, they're going to disappear into the ether. If you have ideas that you want to see for Pathfinder, please wait to post them until the chapter they're relevant to is being discussed.

Monks are a class. Currently they're discussing ability scores and races. If you've noticed a problem with either of those subjects, it should be considered now. Classes will be covered as well - in depth - with Jason engaging the community when he is ready to think about changes for it.

I don't want anyone to say "Well, I gave you my great idea 2 days after the Beta came out" and Paizo to say "We weren't ready. Why didn't you repeat it? We would have made that change if we understood your reasoning when we were looking at changing this aspect of the game."

I know waiting is hard. But I have a lot of things that I want to have heard, and we're not talking about them yet. When we start talking about classes, I don't want my comments lost because someone else is talking about feats and Jason can't wade through all the off-topic posts. And when we're talking about feats and someone else is talking about magic systems, we may reduce the signal-to-noise ratio to a point where we're no longer helping to shape the new system. That would make me cry.

Good point. Right now I'd say the paizo staff are too bussy with gencon for anything else. For the most part i'm happy with races/abilities..excect Charisma, it really shouldn't measure physical beuaty, but thats a tail for another thread....good point, I'll be good now.

1) While i can not argue that pathfinder is D&D, or at least it's spiritual progenitor. And that 4e is D&D in name only. "Dungeons and Dragons" is, unforchunately, trade marked. While, I'm sure that changing the name to dungeons and dragons would help PF's cuase, getting sued by WotC most assuredly would not.

2) I'm not that fond of the art myself..the elf looks...wrong...but its gonna be changed, moote point.

3) Lol...trading in 4e stuff for PF credit.. What is Paizo going to go with that much garbage? I recomend your local blue bin if your having trouble finding a good home for your 4e stuff. I'd recomend your FLGS, but if yours is like mine, it won't take anymore used 4e stuff...has too much as is, and what it has isn't selling.

4)Spell formatting. I agree totally. Maybe soemthing less boxy, more fluid, uhmm, less like 4e's powers and more spell compendium like.

Off hand i would say that exact targetting got preplaced *back* with percise shot, improved precise shot. Can I voice my opinoin that they should be changed back to the alpha version with careful targetting and exact targetting?

While agree that the last 5 levels or so of the monk could use a bit more oomph, I don't think Vital strike, or improved vital strike are "broken". But they certianly do encourage a bit of multiclassing.

To look more closely at the feats themselves, assume a monk 16 and fighter 4. Gives a base attack of +16 and a few extra feats. We'll also assume they have TWF, improved TWF, and greater TWF, so with flurry the attacks look like so: +14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1 (attack modifier not factored in becuase it varies too much, but I did factor in the -2 penalty for TWF,) Now with a monks belt the unarmed damage is 2d10, so the extra damage on each attack would be 4d10 and the monk/fighter would loose two attacks, for a total of 132 (22 average per attack, 6 attacks) average points of damage at 20th level...assuming all attacks hit, not bad. In comparison a rogue with TWF, improved TWF, and Greater TWF will get a total of 210, (10d6 sneak attack over 6 attacks) average extra damage from sneak attack.

So assuming a 16 CHA score for a Sorcerer, a 7th lvl Sorcerer has 3rd level spells. For example, that sorcerer casting Fireball has a save DC of 10 + 3 CHA + 3 Spell Lvl = 16

Some sample monsters:
CR13 - Glabrezu - Fort +18, Ref +8, Will +11
CR11 - Elder Water Elemental - Fort +19, Ref +16, Will +10
CR11 - Adult Black Dragon - Fort +15, Ref +11, Will +12
CR12 - Kraken - Fort +21, Ref +12, Will +13
CR13 - Storm Giant - Fort +17, Ref +8, Will +13

If you're ok with the save that these creatures have vs a 3rd Level Spell with a Character Level of 13, then that's fine. However, if you were a straight sorcerer class, the save for a 6th Level spell would be 19.

If no one else sees a problem here, look at the same numbers at higher levels, it's not just the saving throw DC, but also the maximum damage done by spells of lower level won't even be a blip to higher level creatures.

I'd like to point out two things with this:

I think the problem here isn't the level of the spell being cast, but the 16 in the primary stat.

The second thing I'd like to point out is that if you are a gish then your spells really shouldn't be your primary method of offense. Thats whey you took levels in smash face class. Your spells are aimed at making you better at smashing face, in which case your looking to buffs as your primary spells. Alternatively, you choose smash face class levels to bolster your base attack which you use for delivering touch attack spells. In either case, spell level and save aren't as important duration and other cast level dependent effects.

What I would like to see for mutliclassing is a means to better combine my class choices. Things like ascetic rogue and swift hunter are great for this. If we came up with a feat that was similar to that for each base class combination then we'd have 144 multiclassing feats. Personally i also think having 144 extra feats in my PF-PHB is a great idea. (Honest, if it is bigger then the NY phone, and that is actual content and not white space that is just peachy) However I also recognize that may not be feasible. perhaps a multi-teared approach is in order. A mechanic that allows caster level to increase when multiclassed, like this : http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/magicRating.htm combined with some feats for tother combinations, rogue ranger, fighter rogue, monk paladin, paladin barbarian, etc and some eldritch night, mystic theurge, lyricist prestige classes to round things out with. Just a thought though.

What if rabid shot were modeled after TWF and it's tree? Rabid shot gives one extar attack at minus 2. Improved rapid shot gives another attack, and greater gives a third. Like so (Assumes dex of 20): Rabid shot +3/+3, improved rapid shot +9/+9/+4/+4, and greater +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4 (not counting other feats or items etc.)

As it is writen now, it is effectively char level 7th. (can't take it till 6th, not a fighter feat, thus have to wait till 7th.) What I want to see is better mechanism for a cohort to level with the PC, instead of 1/2 xp. I currently treat the cohort like an NPC that goes up when the leadership table tells him to.

I like the idea, of weapon groupings. I also think that weapon spec, greater weapon focus and greater weapon spec should stay as fighter feats.

As an alternative idea, what about giving the fighter a retrianing ability, like the warblades, where the fighter can practice with a weapon for an hour or so, and switch his weapon specific feats to that weapon?

Combat Feats: Combat feats, as you might know them from Alpha release 3, are a thing of the past. Now the term refers to any feat that can be selected as a fighter bonus feat. Of course, most of the great combat feats have been retooled to fit with this change. Some feats even got an upgrade, such as Dodge (whose bonus now increases to +2 if you have 10 or more ranks in Acrobatics) and Arcane Strike (whose bonus increases by +1 for every five caster levels you possess).

So are these feats, now like fighter feats, in that a fighter chooses from among them for his bonus feats, but anyone could take them if they wanted to? What about feats that like weapon swap which you could only activate one at a time, but they did cool things..are they still there, just as fighter feats, or are they gone. I really liked how there was a selection of feats which everyone could take, and they allowed you to do something cool, but you had to choose which one to use in any given round...it kept rounds form becoming repetitive. If thats gone then I'll be a sad panda.

I just got here. Basically 3p is what brought me here. We, my wife and I, heard about pathfinder RPG almost immediately after it was announced, and even down loaded the Alfa. However at 65 pages, we kinda skimmed it and then forgot about it. For myself I started looking at 4e, and waited for it's release. My group was also saying that thought they may enjoy 4e. However, after I had run the Oakhuast preview adventure, many of them were a bit shaken about 4e. They began to form some doubts about the system.

Then next step in the process to bring here was the downloading of the 4e core 3 torrents. We figured we'd preview them, play a few games, and then get the physical books, in a couple of months. I am so glad we never actually bought those books. After play testing 4e, we came to the conclusion that as a system it is, frankly, unfun, for us. generally we feel its too restrictive, uncreative, and incomplete. If maybe it had double the powers, double the classes, and feats, and maybe had more then 5 reflavoured mechanics it may have been better. perhaps in time, maybe when 4.5 comes out, we'll try it again. Actually another player and I agreed to give it another go in 2009, when Ebberon 4e is released. But I don't have high hopes.

It was my wife whom pulled out the pathfind PDF as an alternative to completely going back to 3.5. After downloading the latest version, and dispersing it amongst the group, it was very well received. So I'll be converting my 4e Kalamar game to a 3P Kalamar game, The wife will run a one shot, and we'll take it from their. I do have every intention of getting the free beta test, and participating in it, hence this new account (I can't b$@!& about the system without the internets :P). I also have high hopes, and confidence in Pathfinder RPG's final version due in 2009.