Tin and fiddles! The board ate another post! Grrrrrrr.....
Ok, so, I think physical attractiveness should be struck from the description of Charisma. Here's why:
1. Charisma is a casting stat, yet it makes no sense for physical attractiveness to hypothetically effect casting. Life, if two sorcerers who were otherwise identical except for their *ahem* feminine assets (let's say they were on just on the opposite sides of the border between Char 19 and 20) were to cast a fireball, the sorcerer with the greater *ahem* endowments would hypothetically net at least a few more degrees of heat (which leads to funny jokes about "wow, you're so hot!" but when the laughs die down it just leaves you wondering why) and can cast another spell per day or so (which leads to the uncomfortable question of where exactly they store those spell slots). Additionally, if you were to specifically make yourself ugly (you wore a bad cut of clothes, put on makeup, maybe styled your hair like something from the 80s) your Charisma wouldn't go down. Makeup might give you a penalty to certain social rolls, but that would be at the DM's discretion. You certainly wouldn't have fewer spells to cast, and your save DCs wouldn't drop.
2. Physical beauty is subjective from person to person. While you can sometimes push this into the epistemological ether of the die roll, there will still be cases where a given character simply doesn't find another attractive (not "you're ugly," just "You're blond, and I prefer brunettes"), and yet they still face the same bonus.
3. Physical beauty is subjective from species to species. Humans will not find ilithids attractive who won't find beholders attractive who won't find orcs particularly attractive who won't find dwarves attractive, and so on. While there could be some cross-species attraction, it will generally be rare, especially when crossing the barrier between types, like between humanoid and aberration.
4. Some species are clearly [i]not attractive[i], and yet they have high Charismas. Like the ilithid. If he were the only instances, it might not be that big a deal, but when monsters seem to have high Charisma scores without any regard for how attractive they are, it strains credibility.
5. Charisma goes up as you adventure (ie, if you put the level increases into it). Are we to assume that a life of eating hard tack, sleeping on uneven stone floors, getting into fights all the time, taking scars and getting beat on, and generally running yourself ragged... makes you more physically attractive?
6. Charisma goes up as you age. Now, I don't want to get into an argument about whether or not age makes people more attractive, but the general consensus of modern western culture (the culture most cultures in D&D, whether consciously or not, are based on) seems to not that it does not. In general, though, it seems odd that a seventy year old would have an easier time seducing someone than a twenty year old.
All in all, I think it makes far more sense to leave how attractive a given character is up to the player. If they want to stress it, maybe they could take an "Attractive" feat or something, but building it in to Charisma just doesn't make sense.
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Charisma measures a character’s force of personality,
persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead,
and physical attractiveness. This ability represents
actual strength of personality, not merely how one is
perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is
the most important ability for paladins, sorcerers, and
bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects
their ability to channel energy. Every creature has a
Charisma score.
ok... physsical attractiveness is thrown as a "matter of fact" or just and extra detail
your sorcerors would be powerful for the very first 1 of 5 statements "force of personality"
not every pretty person is charismatic (i use appearance as player's option... so there are still bombos out there that are stunning but after they open their mouth you already hate them... not for being silly or stupid... but because they are hateable) nor every charismatic person is pretty... Hey Hitler began one of the bigest wars in history and i don't think the man was the model of the ubermench he promosed and promoted.
I heartily agree, good sir.
*signs petition*
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All in all, I think it makes far more sense to leave how attractive a given character is up to the player. If they want to stress it, maybe they could take an "Attractive" feat or something, but building it in to Charisma just doesn't make sense.
Maybe we should bring back Comeliness as the seventh Ability Score.
Even as a joke that sounds like a terrible idea. :)
ok... physsical attractiveness is thrown as a "matter of fact" or just and extra detail
Oh I know. I just don't think it makes sense.
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just ignore it and let every character to choose their decision
other games use charisma and appeareance, the sotrytelling system has actually 9 attributes, but do we need another role?
i let my characters decide their appearance, but definitively charisma affect how people react to them
if they are dirty, look bad, etc i would put a penalty dealing with medium to high class individuals
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I just don't see the problem with Charisma. It already is a compound attribute, like all the others. It represents a vast number of things, and not necessarily beauty.
One character can be ugly and yet have a very high Charisma rating. This would indicate for instance, among other possibilities, a character that inspires confidence in other people or a relative ease at interacting with others, perhaps even using the ugliness/physical handicap as a tool to connect with others or to impose his/her presence in a room or conversation on others.
That's just an example.
So I don't see any need to take the concept of beauty off Charisma. What I could do as a DM, however, is explain the notion of Charisma more thoroughly to players who would believe this is "just" physical beauty.
I disagree. Physical attractiveness is more than just dimensions, its also posture and presentation, which come from self-confidence and social awareness.
Agreeing with Schwartz. And even then, Charisma and physical attractiveness tend to coincide in real life: pretty people are usually more self confident, carry themselves better, etc because they're proud of how they look.
But compound stats are fine. Consider that a character with 24 strength could have a busted leg but still be able to punch out an owlbear... And then not be able to jump at all. Or someone like me with the manual dexterity to type at 80 WPM but not enough touch AC to last eight seconds in a game of dodgeball.
All stats are compound, that's just the way it works. Adding more stats, while possible, is just more bookkeeping that we don't need.
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One character can be ugly and yet have a very high Charisma rating. This would indicate for instance, among other possibilities, a character that inspires confidence in other people or a relative ease at interacting with others, perhaps even using the ugliness/physical handicap as a tool to connect with others or to impose his/her presence in a room or conversation on others.
the Joker is an exaple of this, he is not a pretty sight... but his strenght of personality compels to look to his way, and the bastard has a quite high Intimidate.
I disagree. Physical attractiveness is more than just dimensions, its also posture and presentation, which come from self-confidence and social awareness.
I know, its part, but its not the only part that comprises charisma
a pretty pperson in a well tailored suit who is a pain in the ass... its pretty but has no charisma at allcharisma its not only good presentation... its only how to get near people
I disagree. Physical attractiveness is more than just dimensions, its also posture and presentation, which come from self-confidence and social awareness.
That's using physical attractiveness. Someone who is physically attractive is still physically attractive even if they're out cold; they just aren't posing it in any specific way.
And someone with high Con is still resistant to disease if he's out cold, he just can't make Concentration checks in that state. Good luck making a diplomacy check while unconscious!
I just don't see the problem with Charisma. It already is a compound attribute, like all the others. It represents a vast number of things, and not necessarily beauty.
Yes, but those other stats also measure hypothetically quantifiable aspects of a person. A 100-lb weight is always 100-lbs at Earth gravity, and you need such-and-such physical ability to lift and carry it for a mile. Physical appearance, on the other hand, is hopelessly unquantifiable because there's no hard standard against which to measure it. Additionally, there are a number of cases in which a high Charisma doesn't mean high beauty, an increasing Charisma does not mean increasing beauty, and a low Charisma does not mean low beauty. This means that beauty. if it were quantifiable, would not be linked to Charisma. I'm not asking for a 7th stat, far from it. I just think that since it's logically impossible for beauty to be a part of, or even particularly correlative with, Charisma, we might as well call a stone a stone instead of a falcon.
And someone with high Con is still resistant to disease if he's out cold, he just can't make Concentration checks in that state. Good luck making a diplomacy check while unconscious!
Beside the point. You were claiming that physical attractiveness was an action.
Beside the point. You were claiming that physical attractiveness was an action.
No, I'm claiming that physical attractiveness is part action. A sword is useless without a man to wield it. I'm saying that physical attractiveness is a PART of your charisma like your +3 sword is PART of your attack roll. Sure, the +3 helps, but only when you can use it.
Physical attractiveness effectively increases charisma, and good charisma in other senses helps you to use your physical attractiveness better. Physical attractiveness is both correlative AND part of charisma, just as manual dexterity is both correlative and part of dexterity as a whole. There are some exceptions (like me, with manual dexterity but not dex as a whole, and with relatively high carrying capacity but poor strength-based attack rolls due to an injured arm) but it's all related.
And please, think of any situation in which you might be making a Diplomacy check in person and try and tell me that physical appearance won't affect it at all.
No, I'm claiming that physical attractiveness is part action. A sword is useless without a man to wield it.
Inappropriate analogy. People will treat you differently based on your physical attractiveness even without your doing anything. If Helen of Troy were to walk down the street in exactly the same way as the Wicked Witch of the West, they would still get very different reactions. You can use your appearance, but you also can't just switch it off.
However, even if your argument worked, it still wouldn't explain how this has anything to do with spellcasting ability. The assertiveness, sure, but that's different than physical attractiveness.
And please, think of any situation in which you might be making a Diplomacy check in person and try and tell me that physical appearance won't affect it at all.
I didn't say it wouldn't affect it. I said it would have a variable (but not random) effect, something that a stat would not model properly.
You CAN switch it off with a disguise kit and 1d3x10 minutes. I garuntee you that the woman playing the witch was not half as ugly as the witch in the movie. And people treat you differently if you walk around with a six foot longsword or a rifle than if you walk around unarmed. Try it if you don't believe me. Or if you're walking around in full-plate. If you really want to focus on "appearance" you need to include...
-How often you bathe.
-How well you care for your hair
-Quality of clothes
-Style of clothes
-How well your Cloak of Charisma matches your Lime Green Boots of Speed
-Makeup
-Race (and not just 'elves are prettier than orcs' but 'Red dragons find scales attractive and fur repulsive, but dwarves will look at you funny if you're not completely covered in hair.')
-Diet and exercise
-Str, Dex, and Con (Str 24 and Dex 5 is a rock. Str 5 and Dex 24 is a twig)
-Any spells of the Polymorph or Glamer subschools.
-And a whole bunch of other stuff
And appearance can change drastically in a short period of time from fire damage. Harvey Dent, anyone? Appearance 15 to 5 in 10 minutes of movie time. But wait, Aaron Eckhart is a handsome man! He SHUT IT OFF with a bit of effort.
So yeah, if you can think of a way to have an "Appearance" stat without "Disguise Self" setting it to a straight 25, I'd like to hear it. It's used as a function of charisma because charisma based skills (diplomacy and bluff) are what care about how well you present yourself. And how you look is part of that.
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I agree that Charisma should be force of personality, not appearance.
The ultimate example of high-charisma, low-appearance being the Mule from Isaac Asimov's Foundation trilogy.
The problem is, though, how to balance appearance otherwise. Personality is one thing, but what about basic reaction rolls when NPCs have just seen you and not really spoken to you yet?
You could make it a seventh stat, but is it really as important as all the other stats? You could make it a minor stat of sorts... But how important _is_ it? How do you balance it?
Alternatively you could let the player choose pretty, uggly, plain, or somewhere in between (though, there's different kinds of prettiness -- Sheer aesthetic perfection, sexy, cute, some other ideal... To some extent, beauty is even healthy and you could argue then you should get a bonus for CON. That's why there's all those old paintings of fat women -- they were beautiful because back then, it indicated they were healthy and well fed. Now we know more about what's healthy, and see someone in shape as more attractive. But I digress) anyway, could let the player choose, and then balance the pros and cons of attractiveness vs ugliness vs plainness against eachother...
Or you could not worry about it, and let PCs look like whatever their players want.
But you have to decide _something_ as an alternative to using charisma as a shorthand. If you're going to do something else, what will it be?
Hmm. I seem to recall way back in Players Option, there was a rule for substats... like, sheer muscle power vs endurance under STR, for example... Appearance could be a charisma substat... But this has its own problems...
So, what do people propose?
Tin and fiddles! The board ate another post! Grrrrrrr.....
Nuh uh!
Nom,nom,nom...
"Charisma" is a lousy idea for an attribute, as-is. So is "Wisdom." They're both nebulous and too-broad. I'd replace them with "Willpower" and "Perception," respectively, which are far more straightforward terms. And then Perception skill could be turned back into Search, or made into Sixth Sense or something.
It seems like a very minor issue considering the fleeting mention.
We are, however, here to discuss all the potential issues, however minor they may be, in order to help make Pathfinder the best it can be.
YOU have the power to state absolutely in your games that Charisma emphatically is NOT even in the slightest a reflection of physical attractiveness (as you understand it).
It would be pretty hypocritical of him (or her, but I think BlaineTog is a guy, although I don't remember) not to. I run Charisma the same way in my games. However, BlaineTog did not post this here because s/he was looking for advice on whether this was a good houserule.
That said, nothing in the words Physical, or, Attractiveness, are related to appearance or beauty.
Um, what?! My understanding is that "physical" refers to the bodily aspects of a person one finds attractive, aka what we generally think of as beauty and appearance, aka things like hair, figure, facial features, "endowments", and so forth.
please don't jump all over Pathfinder RPG because those two words are in the text and you've got a problem with them.
I don't think Blaine's jumping all over Pathfinder. This is just something that s/he's really wanted changed officially for awhile and now, finally, there is the chance something might actually happen about it. It's one of those many small, annoying things that people houserule to fix what they feel is broken or just plain wrong with 3e -- exactly the sort of thing that Pathfinder is trying to fix.
And frankly, as a person who tends to play high Charisma characters, I've gotten quite sick of the "your character must be hott!!!~~!1" mentality that comes with a Cha 14+. (Don't even get me started on playing a high-Charisma halfling or gnome.) While one can always decline to game with people who make such, ah, comments, it would be a lot easier if the game didn't encourage such an association in the first place.
In case I haven't made myself abundantly clear by this point, I support BlaineTog's position 100%.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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If we have a hodgepodge stat that is everything and nothing, it is wisdom. I think Charisma as general "ability to impress people" is fine.
If you had a supermodel beautiful character who just does not know that people generally react well to not being spit in the face, then that character will have no high charisma score - but probably still a higher one than a character who in addition looks like someone spawned in a mad scientist's lab. Simply because a pretty face and nice figure (gender nonwithstanding!) makes people willing to extend that much more "social credit" before foreclosing on you.
Charisma and looks are in a correlation, but not a causal one IMHO.
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I've always house-ruled overall all attractiveness to be the average of ALL ability scores. This essentially means that NPCs are generally "average", Elites and PC are "above-average", and high level PCs with stat-boosting etc are down right yummy. If we are talking only physical beauty its the average of the 3 physical stats. Internal beauty, the average of all the mental stats.
High Strength doesn't necessarily mean huge, but muscle tone is attractive
High Constitution? Maybe its better to think of low constitution: Is the asthmatic with bad acne and bad allergies attractive? Not to denigrate those who fit the description, but lets face it, its not a plus.
High dexterity seems odd, but as a friend pointed out when we coming up with this stuff: Gymnasts are very dextrous and limber, as well as those girls in yoga and pilates...very attractive.
So the wizard with a str 8, dex 12, con 10 would be 10, "average" in terms of physical attractiveness. But his Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 12 would mean his "inner beauty" would be a 14, well above average. He would be plain looking but smart, sensitive, and confident. Average it all up and you get the total package, what you would consider after a first date: someone who is a 12, a little above average.
Looks are more important than intelligence
Yeah; look at Denise Richards.
My, my, are there ever a lot of responses! *dives in*
It seems like a very minor issue considering the fleeting mention.
It has ramifications, though. Namely, players taking it seriously. And there’s only one forum up for design discussion right now. What else are we supposed to talk about?
Beside all that, YOU have the power to state absolutely in your games that Charisma emphatically is NOT even in the slightest a reflection of physical attractiveness (as you understand it).
Obviously. I’ve been playing this game for, oh, five years now, and I’ve been designing materials for it for almost as long. I am aware that the book isn’t embossed on adamantine tablets and coated with mylar. However, this is the beta test. The words are written in pencil.
That said, nothing in the words Physical, or, Attractiveness, are related to appearance or beauty. Am I correct?
No, you aren’t. “Attractiveness” means “how attractive you are to other people,” and “physical” means “relating to the external, the material.” You can take it another way, sure, but you’d be wrong. Like if you took the word “basketball” to refer to apple picking.
Attractiveness is not an aura. If you’re sitting in a train with your eyes closed and a beautiful woman sits behind you, you aren’t going to notice how attractive she is unless you turn and look to see who just sat down.
So yeah, if you can think of a way to have an "Appearance" stat without "Disguise Self" setting it to a straight 25, I'd like to hear it.
Apparently, I haven’t said it enough, so this time, I’m going to set it apart, bold, and make the words bigger:
At most, it should be a feat or two for those that want to stress. The DM should be giving circumstance bonuses and penalties anyway to account for appearance, but a person with the Attractive feat would get bigger bonuses when appropriate, and maybe can make diplomacy checks without speaking. I’m not really sure, I haven’t written anything yet.
Ok then, here’s my idea for an alternative “mechanic” for appearance:
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but in the case of a roleplaying game, it’s also in the eye of the player. You know how your character looks and you can probably describe him until the half-celestial cows come home, but how does this effect his career as an adventurer?
Unfortunately, appearance is highly subjective, and two people of otherwise identical backgrounds could have different opinions about the attractiveness of a given person. It gets even worse when you go cross-species. And in addition to all of this, physical appearance isn’t even simply a sliding scale: sometimes, beauty might even be a disadvantage even if the person being influenced thinks you’re the prettiest little princess in the park.
As such, there are two ways of handling appearance: ignoring it, and playing it by ear. If your group doesn’t really care about appearance, then just ignore it. How your character looks isn’t especially important to the orc you’re about to smash with a hammer, so there’s no reason for you to sweat it either. Maybe the DM could describe reactions a little differently now and then, but if you don’t want appearance to make an actual difference in-game, then just don’t sweat it at all. Remember, the point of the game is to have fun.
If you want appearance to make a tangible difference in-game, then you should start by writing out, in detail what your character looks like and handing this to the DM. Is she as beautiful as a nymph, as plain as Jane, or as gnarled as a swamp hag? Is he a life-size Ken doll, just another yokel, or a hunchback with spots?
Then, during the game, the DM will award you circumstance bonuses or penalties as appropriate. This may sound difficult, but it’s actually not: a circumstance bonus (or penalty) is always just +2 (or -2), with very few exceptions. So, if you’re trying to bluff youi way past a guard to get into the noble’s castle and the guard thinks you’re cute, you may get a +2 bonus, depending on how you play it. Let’s look at a few examples:
Example 1: Playing it sweet.
Guard: I’m sorry, miss, but I’m not supposed to let anyone in this way.
PC: Oh, I know, but couldn’t you make an exception, just this once? [She smiles at him, and the DM awards her a +2 bonus]
Guard: Aww, go on, but don’t tell anyone how you got in!
Example 2: Playing it mean
Guard: [As above]
PC: Look, you, let me in or I’ll ram your eyes down your throat. [She glares. This PC is attractive, but in a waifish way. The guard thinks she looks ridiculous, and she takes a -2 circumstance penalty]
Guard: [Laughs] Look, honey, go along home now, I’ve got more important things to do than listen to crazy, uh, people. [The guard isn’t too smart, and doesn’t know this little girl is a level 8 rogue]
Let’s use the same situation, but with a different character. This PC is male, medium build, brown hair, brown eyes, and fairly clean cut: he could pass for a wheat farmer, if he were so inclined.
Example 3: Good old boy.
Guard: I’d like to help you, but I could lose my job!
PC: Oh I hear that. Couldn’t you just let in me in? I won’t tell the sharps nothing. [Gives a crooked smile]
Guard: Oh, get in there. Just don’t make too big a ruckus, or it’ll come out of my hide!
And again, this time with an ugly PC who’s hunching herself over to make herself look older.
Example: The Apple Trick
Guard: Sorry, Ma’am, I’m guarding this door here.
PC: Oh please, kind lad, I am poor and I thought I could sell some of my apples to the goodly lord of the castle, but if not, I suppose I’ll just walk aaaaaallll the way back to the village and cry.
Guard: Aww, jeez, look, I’m sorry. Erm, um, ok, here, you can go in, just don’t tell anyone how you got in, please, ma’am?
The trick with this system isn’t so much have a good appearance, but making use of the appearance you’ve got. A particularly nondescript PC might have an easier time blending into the crowd, whereas a particularly attractive PC might be extremely recognizable and be unable to infiltrate the castle a second time. Perhaps you have scars all over your face that make it easier to intimidate some people (probably not other people with scars; with them, though, you might get a bonus to Diplomacy), or maybe you have a childlike face and have an easier time getting people who like children but don’t know them very well to believe your lies.
Everyone has an appearance, but here are two feats you can take if you want to stress yours as especially important to your character:
[GENERAL]
Your appearance is an especially important part of who you are.
Benefit: Whenever you gain a circumstance bonus because of your appearance, you gain +2 more. Whenever you gain a circumstance penalty because of your appearance, you take an additional -1 penalty. These numbers change to +4 and -2 respectively at 10th level.
Normal: You gain a +2 circumstance bonus or a -2 circumstance penalty based on your appearance.
[GENERAL]
Your appearance is nearly legendary in its beauty or ugliness or whatever else.
Prerequisite: Extraordinary Appearance
Benefit: Whenever you gain a circumstance bonus because of your appearance, you gain +4 more. Whenever you gain a circumstance penalty because of your appearance, you take an additional -2 penalty. These numbers change to +6 and -3 respectively at 10th level and they do not stack with the bonuses and penalties from Extraordinary Appearance.
Normal: You gain a +2 circumstance bonus or a -2 circumstance penalty based on your appearance.
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Now, I’m not 100% sure about how good those feats are, but my feeling is that they’re balanced as long as the DM knows what he’s doing (and if he doesn’t, he should generally just ignore appearance anyway and stick to the stuff that hard rules can actually handle). In any case, this is just one alternate idea, certainly not the only one possible, and while it clearly isn’t perfect, at least it makes more sense than lumping it in with Charisma.
So, you want those two words, [Physical] [Attractiveness], stricken from the final print version, correct?
I want them stricken from the very core of the character creation system because they make no sense and cause confusion, yes.
If they remain is it a deal-breaker for you?
I have a Sharpie, so no. But the RAW would be inferior.
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My two pence: If you are that worried about the physical appearance aspect of the Charisma score, just delete that aspect. Ignore it, let you players decide if the PC is ugly or not, or moderate, or gorgeous.
If you really feel the need for physical attractiveness in your game then I would suggest bringing in the 7th attribute Commliness. (You can also declare that lvl attribute point bonus can not be spent on this attribute) Yes it's another attribute, but if you get the verbage from the original print (which I can provide, and i'm sure others here can as well) you have an exact description of the beauty type. There will be no grey areas or questionable areas.
Now in regards to Cha affecting physical beauty, that was also covered in the release of the 7th attribute.
I remember playing with that attribute back in 1st AD&D, and I enjoyed it. I felt at times it could be a roleplaying challenge. Expecially if you got a low roll.
Why so many people are against this attribute I will never understand, maybe they played in a game where the DM emphasized too much on physical attractiveness.
But what I do in my campaigns, I let my players decide their attractiveness, in no way do I use their Cha to determine their attractiveness. I've met too many people who are attractive (Com 16 or better), but have the worst attitudes (Cha 9 or lower).
I disagree. Physical attractiveness is more than just dimensions, its also posture and presentation, which come from self-confidence and social awareness.
Only too true. A healthy dose of self-confidence works better than any make-up. 34-26-34 won't help if you think you're ugly and walk around like a zombie; they'll look right past you and go for the woman who has 15 pounds too much but is self-assured.
Yes, physical attractiveness is subjective across species, but so is what is considered behavior. Dogs, for example, like to smell each other's private parts - that would be rather impolite in most human societies. Hence, I think physical attractiveness, among other things, ought to factor into charisma, since charisma is a hugely subjective ability score anyway, regardless of whether it is personality-based or looks-based, because it fundamentally depends on others (including members of other species).
Note: Yes, there are some cross-species similarities in both behavior and what is attractive. For example, many species are attracted by shiny objects, and making a lot of noise while running to another creature would be intimidating among many species. Nevertheless, charisma remains a fundamentally subjective ability score.
I think we could keep the physical attractiveness as a part of charisma as an option to those who want to play people who are lone rangers, shy, and with serious social problems, but still have all the girls swooning over their good looks.
Of course if you instead want to play a charismatic hero who's overweight, has hygene problems, and dresses like a 80s rockstar, but still makes a decent leader, then your charisma is just interprited another way.
Or something...
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It really is all a matter of interpretation. Is your 12 in Cha representative of your looks, or your personality? Perhaps it's a balance of both? In the end, it really doesn't matter, since it tends to be so loosely-defined that you could go either way...like was stated above, have the unattractive yet amazingly well-spoken and social character, or the uber-attractive yet socially-inept character.
Totally agree. Charisma is a mental stat and is about inner strength, nothing to do with anything physical, moreover with how other people judge your appearance.
Plus, a fighter would never convince a king to send reinforcements to the border just because he's handsome and makes big shining smiles. :D
If Cha is a problem, then it could be extended to all composite characteristics:
Dex: you may be manually skilled but not nimble at all (think, club-footed clockmaker)
Int: you may be damn smart but lacking in memory.
Wis: perhaps you have strong willpower, but your intuition is pretty low.
Game mechanics do not give any value to "physical attractiveness" as such, as there are no "Seduction" skills, just Diplomacy and Intimidate. One could add feats and stuff to reflect out-of-the-way attractiveness. Meanwhile, it does not seem too outrageous to keep the physique as another element in the mixed characteristic.
BTW, there seems to be an assumption that "physical attractiveness" implies "erotic allure". It can also be other stuff, like having a reassuring gaze, groomed appearance, soothing voice, etc.
Also, having a small physical element in Cha also rationalizes how physical deformities produce Cha loss, as in Mummy Rot. Of course it is a cultural bias (more so in medieval societies), but it is harder to use Diplomacy if half of your face looks like a rotten corpse.
I disagree. Physical attractiveness is more than just dimensions, its also posture and presentation, which come from self-confidence and social awareness.Only too true. A healthy dose of self-confidence works better than any make-up. 34-26-34 won't help if you think you're ugly and walk around like a zombie; they'll look right past you and go for the woman who has 15 pounds too much but is self-assured.
That just goes on to say just how subjective Charisma is... Some men prefer shy women...
Plus, a fighter would never convince a king to send reinforcements to the border just because he's handsome and makes big shining smiles. :D
I don't know. The classic Knight in Shining Armor ALWAYS has a winning smile, and he has the ability to get the other nobles to do whatever he want. I'm sure we've all met people, male and female, who can get others to do things with just a perfect smile.
If Cha is a problem, then it could be extended to all composite characteristics:
Dex: you may be manually skilled but not nimble at all (think, club-footed clockmaker)
Int: you may be damn smart but lacking in memory.
Wis: perhaps you have strong willpower, but your intuition is pretty low.
Exactly. Few, if any, ability scores describe exactly one characteristic.
Strength might be the most straightforward, as it measures muscle power.
Dexterity is hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance. Just because someone can react to danger extremely fast doesn't mean that he could walk a tightrope.
Constitution is both health and stamina. Just because you can run a marathon doesn't automatically mean that you never get sick or can drink vast amounts of alcohol without getting drunk.
Intelligence is learning and reasoning, as well as memory. Quickly understanding something doesn't always mean that you remember things easily.
Wisdom is one of the most extreme examples, as it's willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition. You can have a will like steel but still believe everything you're told, no matter how ludicrous. You can have super senses but still lack common sense.
Charisma also contains more than just physical attractiveness: there's force of persuality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, leadership... You can be pretty but shy. You can have an ego as big as Avistan but the worst manners in the world. You can be very alluring but still a bad leader...
If we really want to separate everything that doesn't belong together, we'd need dozens of ability scores.
And the argument that while charisma is mental, physical attractiveness isn't: it's not the only cross-over, either. Just take wisdom. It's mental and covers senses, but your eyesight depends on your eyes in a very physical way...
My point isn't that Charisma is the only combination stat, just that Physical Attractiveness doesn't make sense as being one of the things in it, for the six reasons I cited in my first post (which I haven't seen addressed adequately).
Golarion elves and half-elves are universally described as physically attractive and they do not have a charisma bonus. Drow do, though.
What would be adequate replies for you Blaine.
By showing how each of those six points I mentioned are either wrong or irrelevant. So, you know, in the usual way one contests a point logically.
1. Charisma is the casting stat for those who cast via natural ability. In Favored Souls, this is how much your god likes you, something that Greek mythology suggests is based on your physical appearance. With Sorcerers, this is based on magic blood, something that would mold your physical appearance to a more ideal image as it would manifest. If your DNA is giving your the strength to change the world, certainly this will be reflected in how it makes you appear to the world.
2. Physical beauty, while subjective in some parts, isn't subjective overall. We still have generally accepted standards of beauty, such as a symettrical face free of blemishes, clean skin, etc. Beauty can be calculated but, like all stats other than Str, it's rather difficult. Plato put forth fairly good arguments to suggest that Beauty is an absolute, but it seems subjective because we focus on things diffrently.
3. Physical beauty, while subjective from species to species, still allows for people to approach an aesthetic ideal, the "form" of beauty. Though a beholder would likely say that humans are an unattractive species as a whole, he would still understand that the clean, healthy human is more pleasing than the filthy, misshapen human.
4. Charisma is a compound stat. Consider the T-Rex, a creature with massive strength but tiny, stubby arms. We accept that while MOST bipedal creatures with huge strength can throw a punch, the T-Rex's strength is in its jaws. Likewise, the Illithid's charisma isn't in its form, but in its unnaturally strong personality. Indeed, if the Illithid's form WERE pleasing, it would probably have another 4 points of effective charisma (in the form of a +2 circumstance bonus to Diplomacy if it's successfully disguised as a human, for example)
5. A life of physical exercise, magical healing, and hard work may, in fact, make you prettier, if not just making you more confident in your ability to be awesome.
6. Wisdom also goes up as you age. Wisdom, the stat that determines your spot and listen checks. Also, Int, the stat that determines how well you remember things, goes up as you age. The flaw here isn't in Charisma, it's that mental ability scores should drop when you age, not rise.
Ok, so, I think physical attractiveness should be struck from the description of Charisma.
I agree that this should be seperated from Charisma... although attractiveness should influence one's charisma skills.
To me, the fix for this is easy. As part of the character description give them some categories to pick for attractiveness.
i.e.
Ugly (-2 to all CHA based skills)
Unattractive
Fair
Attractive (Gained by "Attractive" feat only which would give a +2 bonus to all CHA based skills)
Beautiful (Gained by "Beautiful" feat only which would allow the character to roll twice for any CHA based skill and use the best score; pre-req "Attractive" feat.)
Ugly to Fair provides no benefits to the character. Attractive and Beatiful would have to be purchased as feats.
