I would like to point out that the wisdom bonus does not seem particularly appropriate to the Half-Orc. I understand why the race was given this bonus - all races were given boni to one physical and one mental score so that they are not pidgeonholed into a single role (for the half-orc, this tended to be the barbarian...), but nevertheless, it just does not fit the half-orc flavor.
That said, if the half-orcs must have a bonus to a mental ability score, wisdom would be it, since it is the least inappropriate. Wisdom is probably the most compound ability score and I guess it can be interpreted as good senses and cunning instincts, but it still doesn't feel right.
I would like to point out that the wisdom bonus does not seem particularly appropriate to the Half-Orc. I understand why the race was given this bonus - all races were given boni to one physical and one mental score so that they are not pidgeonholed into a single role (for the half-orc, this tended to be the barbarian...), but nevertheless, it just does not fit the half-orc flavor.
That said, if the half-orcs must have a bonus to a mental ability score, wisdom would be it, since it is the least inappropriate. Wisdom is probably the most compound ability score and I guess it can be interpreted as good senses and cunning instincts, but it still doesn't feel right.
I have to agree with Roman. Half-orcs don't feel particularly wise. In fact they are usually portrayed as more foolishly brave than cunning. I'm not even sure that a -2 INT is appropriate. Half-orcs have always been the bastions of low charisma. I know that there is a desire for balance. But are half-orcs actually MORE charismatic than dwarves? This seems more like ability bonuses and penalties were drawn out of a hat than any attempt to keep with the traditional role and character of non-human races.
If there is a concern about balance consider the following:
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma
This seems more in keeping with the traditional role of half-orcs. In keeping with this, the second favored class for half-orc should be shifted to rogue rather than druid (a role half-orcs have NEVER filled in any other setting or version of the rules).
CJ
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I have to agree with Roman. Half-orcs don't feel particularly wise. In fact they are usually portrayed as more foolishly brave than cunning. I'm not even sure that a -2 INT is appropriate. Half-orcs have always been the bastions of low charisma. I know that there is a desire for balance. But are half-orcs actually MORE charismatic than dwarves? This seems more like ability bonuses and penalties were drawn out of a hat than any attempt to keep with the traditional role and character of non-human races.
If there is a concern about balance consider the following:
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 CharismaThis seems more in keeping with the traditional role of half-orcs. In keeping with this, the second favored class for half-orc should be shifted to rogue rather than druid (a role half-orcs have NEVER filled in any other setting or version of the rules).
CJ
As roman noted above, all standard races are now +2 to a physical and a mental attribute and -2 to one. They seem to be doing a lot to bring things in line so there are unified rules(cmb, hit points, ect) and this puts the races on similar footing which I think is a good thing.
As for the -2 being in charisma, I can certainly see that side of things and wouldn't argue if it was the case(they are generally seen as brutish and lacking in social grace, and it has been that way for a long time) but I know I've seen a few threads of people arguing the other way since charisma is tied to intimidation as well, and half-orcs generally do a pretty good job of that.
With half-orcs always being seen as being kind of dumb and being rather socially inept, I would have to vote for the intelligence drop for them instead of the charisma one, since at least some charisma skills seem to fall into line with some of their stereotypes.
-Tarlane
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This seems more in keeping with the traditional role of half-orcs. In keeping with this, the second favored class for half-orc should be shifted to rogue rather than druid (a role half-orcs have NEVER filled in any other setting or version of the rules).
CJ
Actually Eberron has orcs and half-orcs portrayed as cunning, instinctual creatures in touch with nature very well. The druidic practice was in fact started with the orcs. I for one love the half-orc druid concept and connection, rogues seem highly inappropriate, as I picture rogues as nimble charismatic swashbucklers, not lumbering brutish thugs.
I could live with the change from -2 Int to -2 Cha, but I don't think its necessary.
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If you dump the "wise" assumption of the Wisdom score, then the rest of it (being keen-eyed and stubborn as hell) certainly seems to fit half-orcs.
I could also argue that a Charisma hit would be appropriate, with a racial bonus to Intimidate to compensate, but keep in mind that even in our modern age of Runelords and Sun orchid Elixirs, Charisma is still largely seen as a dump-stat to everyone but Sorcerors, Palladins, and women gamers (all seven of us).
I am a fan of the Wisdom bonus. Orcs can be very shamanistic, and it makes sense for me to have some sense of that in the Half-Orc. I also like that this makes them more perceptive, able to read people a bit better, while still maintaining the low 'book smart' score.
What?
When did orcs become shamanistic? In the old days (1e) orcs might be tribal shamans or witch-doctors. But I wouldn't really call them shamanistic.
Sure the +2 WIS and no penalty to CHA makes them bang-up druids. But traditionally orcs have never "been at home in the wilds" nor "friends to the wild things and plants". If look back to the source material for orcs (LotR) then orcs were foes of the forest and represented destructive industrialism and desire to subjugate nature.
I'm not sure that by extraction half-orcs are friends to nature.
CJ
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Wisdom is probably the most compound ability score and I guess it can be interpreted as good senses and cunning instincts, but it still doesn't feel right.
That's it for me, Roman. Since it reflects the awareness and instinct the Half-Orc develops from the harsh circumstances of his/her life, it seems appropriate to me.
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Why does 'shaman' have to mean 'friend to nature'? One of the orc images I remember from long ago was one with crazy hair and a staff covered in skulls. The orc tribes I remember were always a very tribal sort, and lived out in badlands and desert regions, much like where the Shoanti live in Golarian.
I can't really explain it, I was a kid when 1E came out (25 now, if that helps). I've just always felt that Orcs made better 'Shamans' than 'Clerics'. Clerics seemed more organized, Shamans more tribal. I'm not saying 'Druid' in either of these cases, though I imagine they and Shamans are pretty synergistic.
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Having playtested a half-orc cleric (in Ruins of Greyhawk) I can say that the Wisdom bonus is not a very big deal. What made the combination powerful was the favored class with the +2 Str and +2 Wis with no Cha penalty. It meant I could choose daily between being a combat cleric or a spellcasting cleric.
I like the change of favored class from cleric to druid - fits more with the primal nature and allows the half-orc to improve more Wisdom-based skills. The half-orc still makes for an awesome combat cleric, but part of me might prefer the -2 Cha to hinder them more in a cleric role (making druid a more attractive choice).
This seems more in keeping with the traditional role of half-orcs. In keeping with this, the second favored class for half-orc should be shifted to rogue rather than druid (a role half-orcs have NEVER filled in any other setting or version of the rules).
CJ
Actually Eberron has orcs and half-orcs portrayed as cunning, instinctual creatures in touch with nature very well. The druidic practice was in fact started with the orcs. I for one love the half-orc druid concept and connection, rogues seem highly inappropriate, as I picture rogues as nimble charismatic swashbucklers, not lumbering brutish thugs.
I could live with the change from -2 Int to -2 Cha, but I don't think its necessary.
Not only is it not necessary, I think it would be a bad idea. My reasoning is that the bonus to Strength is still very powerful (just not as much as the writers of D&D 3.0 felt it was), so the penalty needs to be just as powerful.
Charisma is useful for a many things, but Intelligence impacts the number of skills a character receives, so it is a greater penalty - a good balance for the Strength boost.
Director of Brand Strategy
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I think that the WIS bonus is more fitting than it would be for any other mental ability.
I agree with what's been said above about their traditional role as "the dumb ones," and looking at them as mixes between two races, it fits that they would get the lower intellect of the orcs along with their physical strength.
As for CHA, I think it will be too confusing to too many people to give them a bonus there, even if they do have a powerful presence. Too often it's interpreted as beauty alone, but remember that Beholders have huge CHA, so you figure it out.
WIS fits because, as half-breeds, they would have some insight into two different cultures, and their need to navigate the prejudices against their lineage on both sides could justify a bump here.
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I would like to point out that the wisdom bonus does not seem particularly appropriate to the Half-Orc. I understand why the race was given this bonus - all races were given boni to one physical and one mental score so that they are not pidgeonholed into a single role (for the half-orc, this tended to be the barbarian...), but nevertheless, it just does not fit the half-orc flavor.
That said, if the half-orcs must have a bonus to a mental ability score, wisdom would be it, since it is the least inappropriate. Wisdom is probably the most compound ability score and I guess it can be interpreted as good senses and cunning instincts, but it still doesn't feel right.
Wisdom isn't always lights and high-thinking; it's the stat for street-smarts as well.
Especially, when in the words of a famous rogue:
"Know when to hold up,
Know when to fold up,
Know when to walk away,
Know when to run."
And I imagine many a half-orc having to have wisdom to simply survive among communities filled with distrust of them.
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Wisdom isn't always lights and high-thinking; it's the stat for street-smarts as well.Especially, when in the words of a famous rogue:
"Know when to hold up,
Know when to fold up,
Know when to walk away,
Know when to run."And I imagine many a half-orc having to have wisdom to simply survive among communities filled with distrust of them.
And also pure primitive instinct: keen eyesight, acute hearing, sense of smell, business sense. Just look at the skills tied to Wisdom to get an idea of how it doesn't always mean "savvy".
I can understand why the association of Orcs and "wise" doesn't go down well, but look at the main Wisdom based skills: Survival, Perception, Sense Motive... (As well as will-power saves) All skills a wilderness-based, tribal society would be assumed to be adept at. Tribes are definetely based on small-scale politics, so maintaining your status in the tribe and being aware of the subtle shifts in alliances would be a part of tribal life. And the for the Urban/Human-raised Half-Orcs, Streetsmarts sound pretty appropriate to me.
Like was pointed out vis a vis Beholders, CHA isn't supposed to correlate 1:1 with 'attractiveness'. It's the main stat for Sorcerors, after all, and now several bloodlines (Aberrant, Undead, +?) progressively develop hideous disfigurations as they advance in level (most likely improving their CHA along the way). CHA most clearly correlates with "personal presence" or "dominance", beautiful or ugly - And though many complain about it, it's the ability that Intimidate is based off of - A good skill if you're part of a particularly brutal/agressive tribal society, like Orcs.
If you're facing someone who has some racial based prejudice against you, you're going to have something like a -5 to -10 penalty to any Diplomacy interactions, much more than the +1 benefit from having a Charisma score 2 higher... So Orcs won't really get much benefit from this when interacting with hostile races, it really only helps to be extra intimidating to Humans and the like.
On the flip-side, I think Dwarves having a CHA penalty makes sense, because their culture is much less 'dynamic', they have long life spans, and the leaders are usually not the ones who rock the boat, but ones who support tradition the most: There's just a more patriarchal-socialist feel to dwarves, even if they love to out-do each other in combat or stone/metal crafting. Even amongst 'friendly' races like Humans, they usually aren't so outgoing (unless drunk). :-)
I really don't see any problem with any of the half-Orc stats.
Good job, Jason/Paizo!
Edit: The only change that I'd like to see for Half-Orcs would be having some specific Sensory bonus, i.e. +2 Hearing for their pointy ears, or +2 Smell for animalistic tracking...
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Especially, when in the words of a famous rogue:
"Know when to hold up,
Know when to fold up,
Know when to walk away,
Know when to run."
LOL! That's the first Kenny Rogers RPG reference I've ever run across. And he'd be a bard... with facelifts... who owned an inn... that served fried chicken.
And to get back on topic, I am in favor of the Half-Orc Wis bonus and like the favored class change to Druid.
Well... Like someone pointed out, the EBERRON setting featured Orcs/ Half-Orcs as the CORE Druidic race. And if one of the Half-Orcs' favored classes is Druid, I think it's safe to say that some sort of Orc/Druid connection will be developed in Golarion. I'd expect different sorts of Druidic sects to be more common among the Orcs, probably pretty different than the standard D&D Druid. I think developing variant Druid sects would be great (Evil ones would be perfect for the White Witch land in Golarion), something I liked in Eberron. WIS would be the primary stat for any sort of Shaman/ Tribal Cleric in any case.
Eberron is just the latest campaign to evolve and the stated intent of Eberron was to break a lot of the old standards and memes. I can't think of any other campaign that posits orcs as druids (friends of nature).
So far Pathfinder has done a pretty good job of keeping a firewall between Golarion and the Pathfinder RPG. What I like about PFRPG is that it is NOT campaign specific.
I can understand why the association of Orcs and "wise" doesn't go down well, but look at the main Wisdom based skills: Survival, Perception, Sense Motive... (As well as will-power saves) All skills a wilderness-based, tribal society would be assumed to be adept at. Tribes are definetely based on small-scale politics, so maintaining your status in the tribe and being aware of the subtle shifts in alliances would be a part of tribal life. And the for the Urban/Human-raised Half-Orcs, Streetsmarts sound pretty appropriate to me.
I will begrudgingly admit that if we HAVE to give half-orcs a boost to a mental stat, wisdom makes the most sense. I just think giving half-orcs any mental boost is absurd.
Like was pointed out vis a vis Beholders, CHA isn't really mean't correlate 1:1 with 'attractiveness'. It's the main stat for Sorcerors, after all, and now several bloodlines (Aberrant, Undead, ?) progressively develop hideous disfigurations as they advance in level (most likely improving their CHA along the way). Charisma most clearly correlates with "personal presence" or "dominance", beautiful or ugly - And though many complain about it, it's the ability that the Intimidate skill is based off of - A good skill if you're part of a particularly brutal/agressive tribal society, like Orcs.
Thankfully no one is proposing half-orcs get a boost to CHA -- yet! I'm just not sure why Dwarves have less personal presence than half-orcs! When half-orcs came out in 1e they had pretty severe mental stat penalties and limits. This seems like a very extreme departure from those early days and the original flavor (for better or worse).
CJ
Sure, I just saw someone say Druids were "a role half-orcs have NEVER filled in any other setting or version of the rules", and I just wanted to point out a prominent exception to that. DISCLOSURE: I also liked al-Qadim :-)
Anyhow,
Here's the stats for a Glidewing dinosaur I'm using as a mount in an Eberon PbP:
Abilities: Str 18 Dex 15 Con 16 Int 2 Wis 15 Cha 11
This is not some "wise" savant creature, it has a high WIS score because it's INSTINCTS are honed, and it is perceptive and knows nature well. That's what the Wisdom ability does.
Of course the problem is that having racial favored classes in the PRPG rules comes into conflict with any setting that doesn't line up with those choices, so changing them to X only helps certain settings, while conflicting with others. It'd be nice if it could be clarified with a line like "the favored classes are setting dependent, these are just the standard ones for Golarion", like how Deities work.
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i don't use half orcs but i for one would say no to double penalties for their attributes, already saw this in 3.5 and is unbalancing and unfair
about +2 strenght and +2 wisdom sounds right
wisdom is necesary for borderlands and wilderness survival where they are, they usually have shamans or clerics, not wizards, the orcs chiefs must be both strong (to get the post) and wise (to survive and make their tribe survive)
remember also charisma is not about beauty... its about hw to attract people... and a charismatic Chieftain can get along in the world, just think of Thrall in Warcraft. He is strong, but not the strongest, but he is wise beyond his elders and cahrismatic without equal, i would easily give him 18 cha 18 wis, and 16 str
the rest is another thing...
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Wisdom is often that thing we as humans get with experience. Some of it is intuitive, there are wise children after all (that kid has an old soul).
I think in regards to Half-Orcs and Orcs, we should really focus on the wisdom that comes from experience. Another term for this is "Street Smart", "School of hard knocks", maybe even "common sense", etc.
Intelligence tells you that the wet feeling stuff falling on you is rain.
Wisdom tells you to always carry an umbrella when in Florida.
You might carry an umbrella because of an intuitive understanding of the cause and effect of umbrella's, rain, and the common weather patterns in Florida. You're not really conscious of this, you just do it. You are wise.
You might carry an umbrella because you spent a week in Florida getting soaked and vowed to always carry an umbrella when in Florida. You learned from experience. You are wise.
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I quite like half-orcs the way they are, at least with regards to their abilities. Wisdom is a natural choice, half-orcs make great zealots for their causes and being an outcast will certainly give you some street smarts and common sense. My only real gripe is that their human ancestry is largely glossed over in their current incarnation. In my Stone-Age campaign, half-orcs also get Skill Focus as a bonus feat, like half-elves.
Ultimately, regardless of my reservations, I guess the wisdom bonus is the most appropriate bonus to a mental stat, since the others fit even less. Though another way to approach the matter would be like with half-elves and humans: Give half-orcs a +2 to an ability score (perhaps limit it to strength or constitution) and no ability score penalties.
I would like to point out that the wisdom bonus does not seem particularly appropriate to the Half-Orc.
Orcs are savage creatures that rely mostly on their survival skills and their keen wit to survive. (Orcs themselves should have a bonus to wisdom). When a race can survive for centuries, despite warring with, and angering every other race in the world, they must be doing something right. It's definately not their sheer intelligence which has kept them alive for so long... its their keen senses and survial instinct. Orcs and Half-orcs should have a wisdom bonus for this reason.
Not withstanding the above, I think it's safe to say that, a half-orc who spends much of their life trying to avoid succumbing to the persecution of their orc blood existance (often by force), probably is likely wiser that your average human.
The only change that I'd like to see for Half-Orcs would be having some specific Sensory bonus, i.e. +2 Hearing for their pointy ears, or +2 Smell for animalistic tracking...
For the reasons I listed above as to why they should gain a wisdom bonus, I'd also suggest that they either gain a +2 bonus to a sense check of their choice, or just to give them a flat +2 bonus on all Perception checks.
I can understand why the association of Orcs and "wise" doesn't go down well, but look at the main Wisdom based skills: Survival, Perception, Sense Motive... (As well as will-power saves) All skills a wilderness-based, tribal society would be assumed to be adept at. Tribes are definetely based on small-scale politics, so maintaining your status in the tribe and being aware of the subtle shifts in alliances would be a part of tribal life...
I came to this forum to post the opinion that half-orcs should have a CHA penalty, but I think you have put this just right...I forgot that intimidate is a CHA-based skill. So, I think I now have to agree that the half-orc stats are fine as they are.
I am also happy that cleric is no longer one of their favorite class choices (Alpha 3). The druid as a favored class reminds of how Eberron made orcs more than just typical bad guys, but with a worthwhile role in the world (specifically, as the druids that protect the seals to a hostile plane).
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Reading over the half orc once again, I can actually see many instances where the +2 to wisdom can come into play.
4 Examples:
1) Half orcs are outcasts. That can sometimes make someone either very bitter or very insightful into how the world works. Perhaps being judged gives them the ability to look past what most people see at face value and take a better look.
2) Due to their mixed heritage (this kind of goes back to the whole outcast thing) they're, in a sense, living in two worlds at the same time. Once again this goes back to having the ability to look at things most people might not see with just one view point.
3) Strong Minded. Wisdom is indeed the stat for Will saves and Orcs are some stubborn suckers, why not half orcs too? Resilient.
4) This is possibly the greatest insight into their sense of Wisdom ... Half Orcs have the common sense not to guard pies.
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4) This is possibly the greatest insight into their sense of Wisdom ... Half Orcs have the common sense not to guard pies.
Love this one!
Also, if ravens and bats and giant preying mantises can have a Wisdom of 14, representing their keen senses and predatory instincts, I'm pretty comfortable with the average half-orc having a 12 Wisdom from similar instincts.
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I have no problems with the half-orc bonuses...though it is a little strange the half-orcs are actually the best clerics. +str/+wis and no cha penalty means yes to cleric!
Yeah... can you guess which race the cleric's player in my group picked? I would *STRONGLY* suggest giving Half-Orcs just +2 STR in PF RPG, and perhaps something "extra" to differentiate them from half-elves and humans (some sort of "Second Wind-ish" ability like the PCs have in 4E?).
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Reading over the half orc once again, I can actually see many instances where the +2 to wisdom can come into play.
4 Examples:
1) Half orcs are outcasts. That can sometimes make someone either very bitter or very insightful into how the world works. Perhaps being judged gives them the ability to look past what most people see at face value and take a better look.
To me that translates, in game mechanics, as a bonus to Sense Motive and Perception. I think the +2 bonus to WIS is a bit too much... especially, as already noted, when it (along with that +2 bonus to STR) makes them the "ideal" race for clerics.
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I think the +2 bonus to WIS is a bit too much... especially, as already noted, when it (along with that +2 bonus to STR) makes them the "ideal" race for clerics.
And when you've been turned away from the cities of man for your rough features and savage birth, and turned away from the clans of your tribal ancestors for your 'soft blood' and your 'weakness,' who for an outcast soul to turn to but the gods, to find acceptance, and a home, and a family, of sorts, in his fellow clergy and his congregation?
It's got RP hooks, which is always cool.
I will begrudgingly admit that if we HAVE to give half-orcs a boost to a mental stat, wisdom makes the most sense. I just think giving half-orcs any mental boost is absurd.
To draw a corollary, no one thinks that Conan the Barbarian is smart, but he does possess a degree of cannyness and perception that lets him crush his enemies, see them driven before him, and hear the lamentations of their women.
-Steve
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I think the +2 bonus to WIS is a bit too much... especially, as already noted, when it (along with that +2 bonus to STR) makes them the "ideal" race for clerics.And when you've been turned away from the cities of man for your rough features and savage birth, and turned away from the clans of your tribal ancestors for your 'soft blood' and your 'weakness,' who for an outcast soul to turn to but the gods, to find acceptance, and a home, and a family, of sorts, in his fellow clergy and his congregation?
It's got RP hooks, which is always cool.
Yeah, but when the fifth cleric in the row in your group is a half-orc, will that RP hook have lost its flavour? From purely powergaming perspective the half-orc is the *only* choice you'd want for most cleric concepts.
Ah, I knew if I looked then I'd find a thread like this. :)
I remember my gaming days stretching back to the early 80's, and I can't count the number of wise orcs I've encountered there or in fantasy literature...literally...there's not a single one to count. Ok, ok, maybe in the Warcraft universe, or in a few fringe products. But seriously, when I first read it, I was certain it was a typo.
Now, of course, wisdom in the game mechanically adds to perception and whatnot, and orcs could certainly be good at those things. However, wisdom is also supposed to represent, well y'know, wisdom. Now, I just can't see all these people trying to figure out a pressing problem and saying something like, "We need to seek the ancient wisdom of the orcs to solve this dilemma!" Dwarves? Sure. Elves? You bet. Orcs? Are you insane? Also, wisdom represent willpower. Now I can easily picture the iron-willed dwarf standing resolutely against an army of undead when all the others are shaken, or throwing off a mind altering spell through his stubborn will. Now, an orc? Well, I can picture him fighting the undead too...but not because of will, but rather because he's so foolhardy. And throwing off the spells? Well, have you ever encountered the situation where the wizard's enchantments work fine on most things, but those danged orcs are just too strong-willed and unbreakable. It seems so odd to me.
Now, I realize the mechanical justifications here. I know they want to give a bonus to a physical and a mental stat. I also realize that wisdom mechanically aids perception and whatnot. However, it just does not fit the genre. Why not give them a bonus to two physical stats? Certainly that would tend to make them excel as fighter types and be duds at the mental classes, but that DOES tend to fit the normal view of orcs. As for being perceptive, you can do that just by giving a racial bonus to certain skills, and then it wouldn't come with all of the extra baggage. It just seems that the wisdom bonus was done with thoughts of it solely as a game mechanic with genre as a distant second. Granted it is not as bad a choice as intelligence or charisma, but it's still bad.
And then there's the whole druid thing. Ah, the orcs, guardians of woodlands, friends to the creatures of the wild. Really? I thought animals were afraid of them, and they wreaked havoc wherever they went? Now, of course, orcs aren't real, and so we can envision them in any way we please, but I do strongly believe that orc druids are quite antithetical to their normal portrayal. I can see orcs having savage shamans and witchdoctors, but those are more a kind of users of nature rather than preservers of nature. But, if they have wisdom high then its either that or clerics. Again, druid is the least bad choice, but it's still bad.
So what do I recommend? Well, there are a few things, but I'm a better complainer than I am a fixer. Still, I'll have a try. I'd suggest either giving the orcs a bonus to two physical stats (strength and constitution, of course), and then giving them a bonus to perception rolls. Frankly, they have the fewest racial abilities as it is, and could use a few more. Another option? Give them a big bonus to strength (+4) and a penalty to some mental stat. Frankly, I don't really care what is done to make them less useless than they are in basic 3.5, but please don't give them a bonus to a stat that is so terribly inappropriate.
Now, as a side note, I just did a little research on orcs, and it only strengthened my thoughts here. This is the stat-line for orcs: Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 7, Cha 6. Now, granted, we're talking about half orcs and not full orcs, but one would think that you'd kind of average the stats between orcs and humans to get their stats. I also noticed this line about orcs: "Orcs like scars and take pride in exposing them, whether they are of a victory or loss." Now, if one regards the value of a fight based on scars gained rather than victory or loss, should they be considered wise? Now I will give ground when talking about Eberron, but that is a rather non-standard setting, I think.
I guess I'm just saying that orcs as a race are generally viewed as cruel, brutish, destructive, and dim-witted. Half orcs are the products of these orcs mixing with humans. So they don't have to be the same as their orcish parentage. After all, you could put an 18 into charisma and still have a 16. ;) However, they would inherit tendencies of their orcish side, and all of those tendencies seem to class very sharply with a wisdom bonus. Now, if Pathfinder is trying to redefine orcs, that's fine, but it is a redefinition.
Ok, I've rambled enough. Feel free to read some other things about orcs at these enlightening spots though: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/Orc.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
Thanks for slogging through my ramblings,
Kayn
Oh (sorry to rear my ugly head again so soon after that post), I just thought of an addendum.
Many people in this thread have made numerous comments that can defend or justify this bonus. They have mentioned numerous ways that it might be logical. Folks have mentioned that it could lead to good RP hooks. This is all true. However, the fact that it MUST be justified is my point. No one would bat an eye at elves getting an intelligence bonus or dwarves getting a wisdom bonus...at least, I haven't seen posts about those bonuses. And I think if Paizo had given elves a charisma bonus, then no one (or at least very, very few) would have thought it odd at all. But a half-orc wisdom bonus must be justified...again...and again...and again. Some folks roll with it. Some folks cannot stomach it. That, to me, is an indicator that it is quite less than a perfect fit. As for it being a roleplaying hook, yeah, I would certainly agree. However, I've always found the best hooks to be things that are unusual for a character rather than things that were typical. A dwarf who is tough and has a long beard is, well, a dwarf. A dwarf who can't grow a beard and is really brainy...well, that's something that stands out.
And, as a final (really!) note, one individual mentioned that since half-orcs are spurned by all, that it would make sense for them to turn to the gods and become clerics. That's a very valid point, and makes for a perfect character story. However, it is simply not a standard in any setting that I've ever heard of. That is to say, it's not really a backwards compatible thing. Now, if that's how it works in the Pathfinder universe, no problem...but that then makes the Pathfinder universe a bit of an exception rather than the rule.
Anywho, I'm not trying to flame or attack anyone. I just feel a bit more strongly about the issue than I thought and I want to present a thorough discussion.
Kayn
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Yeah, but when the fifth cleric in the row in your group is a half-orc, will that RP hook have lost its flavour? From purely powergaming perspective the half-orc is the *only* choice you'd want for most cleric concepts.
why?
the only cleric in my table is a half-elfand just because dwarves lose a bit of charisma they don't make them any less clerics (my oldDM when he did played he always did a Dwarevn Cleric and he was not egtting the +2 to wis that exist know), he knew his charisma's skills and abilities will suffer, but eh kliked the resilience of the dwarf and the effect he had... now he will doubly chose him
so... no i don't see the Half-orc as taking the cleric's scene
i say let wisdom as incstint and experience for thosewho live in dangerous places, to stay for half-orcs
Oh (sorry to rear my ugly head again so soon after that post), I just thought of an addendum...<snipped>
I totally agree with Kayn's point of view.
I think half-orcs should be handled in much the same way half-elves are. Give them a +2 to any one stat, darkvision, affinity for orc-ish weapons, and call it good.
CJ
If you dump the "wise" assumption of the Wisdom score, then the rest of it (being keen-eyed and stubborn as hell) certainly seems to fit half-orcs.
I agree. Besides, all animals have a +2 to Wisdom. Animalistic is a trait I would use to describe Half-Orcs. As Immora said, you have to drop the "wise" part of wisdom but mechanically, it works wonderfully. This gives half-orcs more willpower and better survival and perception skills. They are not harder to fool (from higher Sense Motive and Will saves) because they are civilized, but because their lack of social skills makes them more suspicious from the beginning.
Of all the ability names, Wisdom is the least evocative and least descriptive of what it involves in terms of system mechanics.
No one would bat an eye at elves getting an intelligence bonus or dwarves getting a wisdom bonus...at least, I haven't seen posts about those bonuses. And I think if Paizo had given elves a charisma bonus, then no one (or at least very, very few) would have thought it odd at all.Kayn
I think this is only because "wisdom" is not the name this ability should bare in the first place.
I've seen paladins and clerics with high wisdom score acting anything but wisely. Many Elf wizards (a race known for its mastery of wizardry and wisdom, at least that is how they are traditionally described) end-up with a low score in wisdom because DEX and INT are optimum choices for these characters.
I learned to live with the term and I do not suggest it should be changed, but IMO, an Ability (which serve as the base construction materials for the character) should not dictate how the character be role-played.
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Yeah, but when the fifth cleric in the row in your group is a half-orc, will that RP hook have lost its flavour? From purely powergaming perspective the half-orc is the *only* choice you'd want for most cleric concepts.I think the +2 bonus to WIS is a bit too much... especially, as already noted, when it (along with that +2 bonus to STR) makes them the "ideal" race for clerics.And when you've been turned away from the cities of man for your rough features and savage birth, and turned away from the clans of your tribal ancestors for your 'soft blood' and your 'weakness,' who for an outcast soul to turn to but the gods, to find acceptance, and a home, and a family, of sorts, in his fellow clergy and his congregation?
It's got RP hooks, which is always cool.
The problem isn't Pathfinder ; the problem is powergaming. There isn't a set of rules I know of that can't be cheese-whizzed by some powergaming twink if they want to. The key is for the GM to just say "No, unless you can give me a good story/campaign reason, and one different from all those you've used before." And unless they comply, they can't play that character. Period.
The burden for this can't be on the rulebook, but on the GM and the other players in that campaign.
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Yeah, but when the fifth cleric in the row in your group is a half-orc, will that RP hook have lost its flavour? From purely powergaming perspective the half-orc is the *only* choice you'd want for most cleric concepts.I think the +2 bonus to WIS is a bit too much... especially, as already noted, when it (along with that +2 bonus to STR) makes them the "ideal" race for clerics.And when you've been turned away from the cities of man for your rough features and savage birth, and turned away from the clans of your tribal ancestors for your 'soft blood' and your 'weakness,' who for an outcast soul to turn to but the gods, to find acceptance, and a home, and a family, of sorts, in his fellow clergy and his congregation?
It's got RP hooks, which is always cool.
The problem isn't Pathfinder ; the problem is powergaming. There isn't a set of rules I know of that can't be cheese-whizzed by some powergaming twink if they want to. The key is for the GM to just say "No, unless you can give me a good story/campaign reason, and one different from all those you've used before." And unless they comply, they can't play that character. Period.
The burden for this can't be on the rulebook, but on the GM and the other players in that campaign.
Certainly, in my opinion but the rules should be designed with powergaming (and the problems that maximizing/abuse may cause) in mind, too. In my experience most groups have at least one powergamer, and mine has two (another in which I occasionally play consists solely of powergamers...).
While I'm not in favor of "complete balance and harmony" that 4E seems to encourage, I would like not to have such blatantly "ideal" class choices for races -- at least for one of the classes that has been probably the most problematic in 3E. Of course, it depends on the character concept, too (i.e. not all cleric "uber-builds" are melee-oriented).
All in all, I wouldn't personally have any trouble with this, if I thought it would only be natural for Half-Orcs to get +2 to WIS, but I don't (at least not from their orc parents). However, if Half-Orcs would get +2 to CON instead of WIS, they would be the "ideal" race for the barbarian class. My solution would be to give them a flat +2 to STR and perhaps some extra Racial Ability to differentiate them from humans and half-elves...
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Oh (sorry to rear my ugly head again so soon after that post), I just thought of an addendum...<snipped>
I totally agree with Kayn's point of view.
I think half-orcs should be handled in much the same way half-elves are. Give them a +2 to any one stat, darkvision, affinity for orc-ish weapons, and call it good.
CJ
This is the most interesting idea I have heard yet. To be honest, we went back and forth on the half-orc bonuses for a while before settling on the current mix. I am not sure any other mental stat bump for half-orcs works at all (Int and Cha) as both are decidedly "un-orcish" in many regards.
As for the druid favored class, this was done primarily for a "shamanistic" feel. Clerics are far too organized, in general, whereas druids seem like a pretty good fit (calling on the elements, using feral animals, shapeshifting).
These things said, of course, I am open to discussion. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Honestly, I'm pretty happy with the Pathfinder Half-Orc, the only change I'd like to see would be the Keen Senses, to Hearing and Smell, which has already been mentioned. Alot of ANIMALS have higher WIS scores than the average Human, so I don't see much problem with Half-Orcs & Wisdom. (Those saying the Half-Orc is now the "automatic" Cleric (now Druid) race don't know what to do with their Human Feats, I think)
Treating the Half-Orc more like the Half-Elf DOES make a certain amount of sense...
Except that, unlike an Elf, the pureblooded Orc is NOT a Core PC race: the Half-Orc is "as Orc as you get" in the core races. If the Orc is considered unplayably "not Human equivalent", a "Half"-Orc should still be as distinct a race as other non-Human PC races (Elf, Dwarf, Gnome).
The Half-Elf is a blend of 2 Core PC races, which is why it's abilities track much closer to Human.
I'd expect a Half-Giant PC race would be designed more similarly to the Half-Orc than a Half-Elf.
This is the most interesting idea I have heard yet. To be honest, we went back and forth on the half-orc bonuses for a while before settling on the current mix. I am not sure any other mental stat bump for half-orcs works at all (Int and Cha) as both are decidedly "un-orcish" in many regards.
As for the druid favored class, this was done primarily for a "shamanistic" feel. Clerics are far too organized, in general, whereas druids seem like a pretty good fit (calling on the elements, using feral animals, shapeshifting).
These things said, of course, I am open to discussion. Thoughts?
Why not allow half orcs access to any one physical stat?
I can't imagine them being too blessed in the mental department.
-Steve
...I don't really know how "mental" Wisdom really is, even though that's the D&D custom.
DINOSAURS have 15 Wisdom scores, after all. There's things like "Body Wisdom" or whathaveyou,
and "Willpower" (the relevant Save) can be seen to manifest in 'sub-par' intellects.
As for the druid favored class, this was done primarily for a "shamanistic" feel. Clerics are far too organized, in general, whereas druids seem like a pretty good fit (calling on the elements, using feral animals, shapeshifting).
These things said, of course, I am open to discussion. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I'd say penalize their charisma instead of Int. Full orcs have a penalty to all three, so any is justifiable, but I'd rather see the charisma penalty. Mostly because it fits the established fluff of orcs breeding half orcs as smarter orcs.
Of course, charisma is less valuable than intelligence to most of the classes that benefit from the +str benefit (fighter, barbarian, ranger). So this would be a power level change.
I like Druid as the favored class (though if Adept were on a PC power level I'd suggest that).
The problem with Druid as a favored class is that Druids are all members of the same organization, required as part of the Druidic language. Wizards, clerics... Every other spellcasting class could have, in theory, learned everything on their own (slightly less so on the part of wizards, but mechanically they can). But every Druid must have had a druidic patron.
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This is the most interesting idea I have heard yet. To be honest, we went back and forth on the half-orc bonuses for a while before settling on the current mix. I am not sure any other mental stat bump for half-orcs works at all (Int and Cha) as both are decidedly "un-orcish" in many regards.As for the druid favored class, this was done primarily for a "shamanistic" feel. Clerics are far too organized, in general, whereas druids seem like a pretty good fit (calling on the elements, using feral animals, shapeshifting).
These things said, of course, I am open to discussion. Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
You know, I think the +2 to any stat would work and provide a nice symmetry. However, orcs are known for their strength (+4 to start) which far exceeds any elven racial statistics.
Perhaps just +2 Str with no other bonus or penalty? They inherit their orcish power, but their human blood evens out their other characteristics.
As for the Druid, why not give them Ranger as a favored class? Reclusive, primal, hatred of certain enemies, territorial (terrain), but still at heart a warrior? That sounds like a good fit to me!