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Hi, I noticed that there is no entry for Demogorgon as a Demonlord in the PFCS even though the name is no WoC IP as good ole' Milton used it for paradise lost.
Don't get me wrong, I am happy that for once Orcus is there but not Demogorgon and Grazzt (fo which WoC holds IP).
Just want to know if there was some reason.
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The name isn't WotC IP, but the description is. Would cause too much confusion, if you ask me. (Though that hasn't stopped the reuse of names in the Outer Planes - bad idea, IMO).
And I do have to ask what two otherwise outstanding subjects of Her Infernal Majestrix are doing asking about a demon? Do I need to report you to Her Royal Inquisitors?
Creative Director
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There's basically 2 reasons Demogorgon's not in Golarion.
1: I kinda got my fill of him during Savage Tide.
2: (And this is the REAL reason): While the name "Demogorgon" is a demon invented by a nameless monk back in the the 7th century or thereabouts and thence used by Milton as a name drop in Paradise Lost, the depiction of him as a two headed monster is all WotC's intellectual property. If we were to do Demogorgon in Golarion, we'd have to make him look different and have totally different powers and role. That's not something I wanted to do.
There's basically 2 reasons Demogorgon's not in Golarion.
1: I kinda got my fill of him during Savage Tide.
2: (And this is the REAL reason): While the name "Demogorgon" is a demon invented by a nameless monk back in the the 7th century or thereabouts and thence used by Milton as a name drop in Paradise Lost, the depiction of him as a two headed monster is all WotC's intellectual property. If we were to do Demogorgon in Golarion, we'd have to make him look different and have totally different powers and role. That's not something I wanted to do.
Let me get this straight... WotC owns the representation of Demogorgon as a monster with two heads?
If this is not a sign of the apocalypse, I don't know what is. Next you're going to tell me that they own Tiamat as a 5-headed drag... WHAT????
Is Golarion's Orcus a big, fat ram-headed fella? That's always bugged me 'cause he looks and sounds nothing like anything who'd be in charge of undead.
Is Golarion's Orcus a big, fat ram-headed fella? That's always bugged me 'cause he looks and sounds nothing like anything who'd be in charge of undead.
As I understand Orcus' backstory, his lordship over the undead is a kind of punishment. Therefore, he can really look like any regular ol' demon.
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Creative Director
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I guess the next question here would be, and forgive my lack of reading this somewhere, who then, is the big boss of demons? Who controls the biggest plane, the biggest city, the most power?
Paizo team, please to enlighten us in this matter.
:3
Yup; that would be Lamashtu, the goddess of madness, nightmares, and monstrous birth. She's also a demon lord, and as the only one that's a full deity (all the other demon lords are only demigods, at best), she's also the most powerful. One of her appelations is the Demon Queen. That all said, she's much more interested in running her church and other goddess stuff than she is in ruling the Abyss, so even though she has the largest realm in the Abyss, she doesn't really control much beyond her own single realm there.
As for Orcus... he IS open content, thanks to the Tome of Horrors, and he's the standard goat-headed fattie with the stingered tail and wand of death. He doesn't have a big role in Golarion though, since he's already got his fingers in so many campaign settings already. We want to get moving with some new or more obscure demon lords for the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting.
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Yup; that would be Lamashtu, the goddess of madness, nightmares, and monstrous birth. She's also a demon lord, and as the only one that's a full deity (all the other demon lords are only demigods, at best), she's also the most powerful. One of her appelations is the Demon Queen. That all said, she's much more interested in running her church and other goddess stuff than she is in ruling the Abyss, so even though she has the largest realm in the Abyss, she doesn't really control much beyond her own single realm there.
As for Orcus... he IS open content, thanks to the Tome of Horrors, and he's the standard goat-headed fattie with the stingered tail and wand of death. He doesn't have a big role in Golarion though, since he's already got his fingers in so many campaign settings already. We want to get moving with some new or more obscure demon lords for the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting.
We'll see stats or bigger backstories for them maybe?
:3
Paizo could host a Demogorgon Design Derby, and judge the best submission for his new incarnation.
Guidelines: No two-headed Baboon/Hyaena with tentacles, otherwise, whatever.
Ooh, I know! He could be this big, hairy, sort of panda-like thing...only with a starfish for a head.
All hail Lamashtu, Demon Queen!
Yes, praise her! Praise the Life Giver, She Who Brings Children to the Barren and Slayer of the Weak.
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All hail Lamashtu, Demon Queen!Yes, praise her! Praise the Life Giver, She Who Brings Children to the Barren and Slayer of the Weak.
She who is lickspittle to the Gods, she who is complicit in the imprisonment of the True Slayer, she who births imperfections, stacking offense upon offense on a universe burdened by that which is corrupted and impure. The Demon Queen holds onto her title like a child clutches her teddy bear, trembling in fear of the return of the Rough Beast.
HAIL ROVAGUG. ROVAGUG FTAGHN!
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She who is lickspittle to the Gods, she who is complicit in the imprisonment of the True Slayer, she who births imperfections, stacking offense upon offense on a universe burdened by that which is corrupted and impure. The Demon Queen holds onto her title like a child clutches her teddy bear, trembling in fear of the return of the Rough Beast.
HAIL ROVAGUG. ROVAGUG FTAGHN!
Rovagug the Weak, who was imprisoned?
Rovagug the Impotent, who spits and rails against his captors?Rovagug the Ineffectual, whose Spawn do not free him?
The Beast seeks to destroy, not create as my mistress commands. My mistress has a teddy bear yes, but clutches it with love, not fear. *shows the Shemhazian Demon*
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Rovagug the Weak, who was imprisoned?
Rovagug the Impotent, who spits and rails against his captors?
Rovagug the Ineffectual, whose Spawn do not free him?The Beast seeks to destroy, not create as my mistress commands.
Rovagug, against whom all Gods contended, and yet still survives, unharmed and simply imprisoned (incompletely and increasingly weakly). Rovagug, who bides his time, gathering his strength to burst forth and rend this flawed universe asunder. Rovagug, who does not seek any aid from his Spawn, but stands upon his own nine feet. The Rough Beast needs neither love, nor fear, nor even hate. His duty is singular, and the weakness shown by other so-called Gods is not his to display.
Best that the Beast destroy to make room for perfection, than to fill a universe overflowing with corruption with yet more filth, no matter the cloaca that spews it forth.
no...weird is the gnome sorceress who worships Lamashthu in one of my games...she took the FX where her acid is a ray, but comes from her mouth...
A fitting tribute to our Mother.
I just assumed that Demogorgon and Graz'zt had taken the third party road: I.E. conceptually they're still there, but with distinct non-copyrighted names. As such, that swamp god of the frog people sounds sort of like Demogorgon to me, fitting in with his semi-aquatic monster god persona. And whoever the Sacred Whore is could be Graz'zt: nothing said it was female. Of course if one was looking for a clearer back-story, simply go with the obvious; Lamashtu ate both of them and took over their portfolios.
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As for Orcus... he IS open content, thanks to the Tome of Horrors, and he's the standard goat-headed fattie with the stingered tail and wand of death. He doesn't have a big role in Golarion though, since he's already got his fingers in so many campaign settings already. We want to get moving with some new or more obscure demon lords for the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting.
I agree with Orcus being somehow overused within the last years, but why did you decide to include him into the ranks of the demonlords at all?!
I can't believe it's just because he's open content and somewhat iconic. I have the feeling that including him is kinda counterproductive towards the goal to establish new and yet unknown demonlords. I believe that many DMs might prefer Orcus when they need a demon lord for their game because he's already familar. I really like what you did with Pazuzu as an arch enemy of Lamashtu. He's already known as well, but with that, you're giving him a new (and important) role in the eternal struggles of the Great Beyond. I would've loved to see Orcus getting a similar treatment, because this would justify his inclusion and preference over something totally new.
Those that have spoken ,
Are nothing but blinded fools,
Blackfingers is truth.
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Creative Director
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I agree with Orcus being somehow overused within the last years, but why did you decide to include him into the ranks of the demonlords at all?!
I can't believe it's just because he's open content and somewhat iconic. I have the feeling that including him is kinda counterproductive towards the goal to establish new and yet unknown demonlords. I believe that many DMs might prefer Orcus when they need a demon lord for their game because he's already familar. I really like what you did with Pazuzu as an arch enemy of Lamashtu. He's already known as well, but with that, you're giving him a new (and important) role in the eternal struggles of the Great Beyond. I would've loved to see Orcus getting a similar treatment, because this would justify his inclusion and preference over something totally new.
In fact, the main reason we included Orcus WAS because he's got a magic combo of being open content and VERY iconic. In fact, about half of our demon lords aren't new but are, in some way or shape, the same ones that have been in the game for years, if not decades. The goal isn't to rebuild an entire pantheon of demon lords, but to establish a good mix of new demon lords and old demon lords.
As for Pazuzu... what I did with him and Lamashtu isn't new either; it's from real-world myth, and it appears in official D&D products as well.
EDIT: Also, with Orcus being the "mascot" for Necromancer Games, and with Paizo and Necromancer's relationship... it just seemed "right" for Orcus to have a place in Golarion.
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On the other hand, I miss Zuggtmoy ... she was ... sweet ...
Yeah, Malcanthet was the party girl always in everyone's face. Pale Night worked that mystery girl thing and had people twisted around her finger. But Zuggtmoy, she was the demon lord next door, y'know.
She wasn't extravagant. She didn't build up this mystique around herself. She just stayed at home a lot and tended her garden. She was the kind of girl you wish you had gotten to know better when you had the chance, before she "bloomed" and everyone realized what she had going for her.
I really grew fond of her towards the end, but now it's too late.
Demon worshipers... damned to the abyss you all are.
We prefer to think of it as a party reservation.
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Demon worshipers... damned to the abyss you all are.
The Abyss, too, shall be erased and forgotten as the mistake it is when The Rough Beast rouses from His slumber, and shrugs off the weak and flawed bindings draped over His many shoulders. Demons shall beg for the mercy they never gave as they are rent limb from limb and devoured by His Ravening Maw. Flames of retribution and tears of joy shall engulf hell as He releases the damned from their suffering and throws down the very demon lords that scuttle and thrive in the misery of creation.
It's all very neat.
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In fact, the main reason we included Orcus WAS because he's got a magic combo of being open content and VERY iconic. In fact, about half of our demon lords aren't new but are, in some way or shape, the same ones that have been in the game for years, if not decades. The goal isn't to rebuild an entire pantheon of demon lords, but to establish a good mix of new demon lords and old demon lords.
Please don't get me wrong, James. I'm very, very pleased with the current "pantheon" of demon lords! And I've read about some that remind me of old D&D favorites while adding new twists to them. It's very well done and I didn't want to appear critical with my previous post. It's just that I think that Orcus is so well known as a heavyweight demonlord and that he shouldn't be "wasted" with giving him an unimportant role in the hierarchy of the abyss.
As for Pazuzu... what I did with him and Lamashtu isn't new either; it's from real-world myth, and it appears in official D&D products as well.
Oh, I realised that his role isn't quite new and I also realised that he's coming from a real-world myth, but I never found his previous incarnations in older editions as appealing as the one you gave him for Golarion. I know that you didn't change that much, but you just changed the right aspects. This remark was meant as a compliment! Is Lamashtu from real-world myth as well? I thought, she originally came out of your homebrew...
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See, all this Rovaboasting has made me imagine this....
See, all this Rovaboasting has made me imagine this....
I'm not sure whether I laughed or cried a little at that. o.O
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See, all this Rovaboasting has made me imagine this....
Heh. To be fair, Asmodeus was glitching the server at that point. Rovagug clipped under the map and has been stuck ever since.
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On the other hand, I miss Zuggtmoy ... she was ... sweet ...Yeah, Malcanthet was the party girl always in everyone's face. Pale Night worked that mystery girl thing and had people twisted around her finger. But Zuggtmoy, she was the demon lord next door, y'know.
She wasn't extravagant. She didn't build up this mystique around herself. She just stayed at home a lot and tended her garden. She was the kind of girl you wish you had gotten to know better when you had the chance, before she "bloomed" and everyone realized what she had going for her.
I really grew fond of her towards the end, but now it's too late.
That made my day, thanks ! Hope Golarion has some ... mushroomy girl ... that can be easily substituted for Miss Z.
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Creative Director
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That made my day, thanks ! Hope Golarion has some ... mushroomy girl ... that can be easily substituted for Miss Z.
We DO have a demon lord of fungus (and parasites); Cyth-V'sug. He's a guy, though, and a bit more monstery than Zuggy. Which is by design, since that lets you use BOTH of them in a game if you so wish.
If you'll pardon me from asking, but why NOT change Demogorgon then? I mean, yeah, he proved himself incontrovertibly awesome in Savage Tide, but I'm sure I'm not the only person who agrees with me that he could be so much more. He could be this secret, whispered thing among demons, some big secret that not a lot of demons know about but just refuse to acknowledge. Kind of like F.A.T.A.L. He could be Lovecraftian(er), or, dare I say it, even a little Gnostic. I mean, if we're working with a clean slate, maybe it's time to make something new. Just food for thought...
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If you'll pardon me from asking, but why NOT change Demogorgon then? I mean, yeah, he proved himself incontrovertibly awesome in Savage Tide, but I'm sure I'm not the only person who agrees with me that he could be so much more. He could be this secret, whispered thing among demons, some big secret that not a lot of demons know about but just refuse to acknowledge. Kind of like F.A.T.A.L. He could be Lovecraftian(er), or, dare I say it, even a little Gnostic. I mean, if we're working with a clean slate, maybe it's time to make something new. Just food for thought...
Because he's one of the iconic D&D demons. In my home Golarion campaigns, I want to be able to use Demogorgon in the way players know and recognize him; he's been around since the very start of D&D, after all (his first appearance being in Eldritch Wizardry, I believe). He's set in stone, as far as I'm concerned; even though we can't use him as D&D set him up, I don't want to change him. Much better to just mention his name now and then and let those folk who want to use them as they remember him. We can always make up new demon lords to fit the roles of secret whispered things or Lovecraftian or Gnostic menaces.
All hail Lamashtu, Demon Queen!Yes, praise her! Praise the Life Giver, She Who Brings Children to the Barren and Slayer of the Weak.
Great is the Daughter of Heaven who devours children!
(Okay, what do I get for praising Lammy?)
I use Angazhan, demon lord of apes and savagery, to fill the niche that Demogorgon filled in Savage Tide.
Lamashtu is the 'Big Boss' of Demon Lords, 'though.
That reminds me, have Angazhan's 'people', and ape-men, been statted up anywhere?
If not, they should be easy to do. Just make them INT 8-10 Chaotic Evil dire apes.
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Ooh, I know! He could be this big, hairy, sort of panda-like thing...only with a starfish for a head.Paizo could host a Demogorgon Design Derby, and judge the best submission for his new incarnation.
Guidelines: No two-headed Baboon/Hyaena with tentacles, otherwise, whatever.
A good idea for a far-spawn thingie I'll likely throw at my players soonish. *grin*
With less panda and more tendrils.|
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I use Angazhan, demon lord of apes and savagery, to fill the niche that Demogorgon filled in Savage Tide.
Lamashtu is the 'Big Boss' of Demon Lords, 'though.
That reminds me, have Angazhan's 'people', and ape-men, been statted up anywhere?
If not, they should be easy to do. Just make them INT 8-10 Chaotic Evil dire apes.
Yeah; they have. They're the charu-ka, and they were statted up in "Throne of the Gorilla King," one of Paizo's Compleat Encounters (the product that had 3 miniatures, maps, and a bunch of cards with stats).
I suspect that the charu-ka will be returning to the game in Pathfinder RPG mode by this time next year, though...
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That reminds me, have Angazhan's 'people', and ape-men, been statted up anywhere?
If not, they should be easy to do. Just make them INT 8-10 Chaotic Evil dire apes.
I make the 'rank and file' Awakened Apes. Some are 'blessed by Angazhan' and are Fiendish. A leader may have have the Half-Fiendish template. Dire Apes breed slower, and are less likely to be spellcasters, but more likely to be Fiendish (or Half-Fiendish).
The average specimen is a Ranger or Barbarian, with the Rangers leading teams of raiders and slavers, bringing back workers (and meat) to the city. Leaders are often Abyssal Sorcerers, Adepts (the most common spellcasters), Druids or, extremely rarely, Clerics of Angazhan (never more than one in a community, as they kill rivals...). The Druids, Adepts and Clerics have access to a lower level 'Tainted Awakening' spell that functions similarly to Awaken (but doesn't give extra HD, doesn't make them quite as smart (average Int 8), makes them evil and requires a sentient sacrifice, with human being their sacrifice-of-choice), allowing the Awakened Apes to 'pass on their gift.'
To play up the Demogorgon flavor, the Adepts, Sorcerers, Druids and Rangers never take simian Familiars or Companions (despite the presence of non-evil Awakened Monkeys living in the canopy above their city-state, whom they regard as pests to be exterminated), and instead choose reptilian creatures, including Vipers, Constrictors and Monitor Lizards (stats as Crocodile, but 1/2 swim speed, no breath holding and a diseased bite).
They live in the crumbling ruins of the impressive city-state whose former human inhabitants once awakened them as labor. They enslave humans and baboons to work the paddies as their own slave labor (but often eat so many of the humans that they must raid further and further afield, eventually becoming so hungry for meat that they turn on each other and fall into collapse for a few generations, only to start it all over again...). They refuse to repeat their creator's mistake, and the baboon slaves are never awakened. The community, even at it's height, rarely has more than a hundred awakened apes, and a dozen or so awakened dire apes.
I kinda like playing off of Planet of the Apes, Congo and DC Comics (Gorilla City), in this manner, and also splashing some Demogorgon flavor onto the Angazhan-worshipping apes.