I have always noticed these two classes to be overpowered in 3.5.
Most of my players have complained about these two classes overshadowing the wizard and being pretty good at martial fighting to. Of course this could just be my campaign.
I am wondering if Pathfinder has took any steps to fix this possible issue.
the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid were always pretty much on par with each other though for completely different reasons.
The Wizard and Druid in particular have been brought quite low by the Nerf Bat. (a necessary hit, but still a hard one to swallow).
I've not seen very much in the way of Cleric nerfs except for maybe Implosion getting the SoD-treatment same as most of the wizard SoD's.
Divine Power has received some nerfs though to be honest I'm not sure how well it's actually *nerfed* in actual game play.
(bonuses scale with level instead of being set, you get an extra attack at your highest that doesn't stack with haste but you no longer get fighter attack bonus).
Righteous Might seems to actually have gotten a buff (to the tune of +2 con and the very slight DR adjustment).
Otherwise I don't see they've done much to "decrease" the power of clerics, so much as they have increased their sheer healing ability.
While I haven't tested it, I think we've seen a great nerfing of the wizard and druid, while keeping the Cleric where it was power wise- or even slightly buffing it. While I like the channeling energy thing for healing, it Does leave clerics alot of spells open to buff themselves. Extra healing is good, but I'm curious to see how it goes in actual game play. It may be the the channeling is too powerful not because of what it does, but because of what it allows the cleric to do with his spell slots.
-S
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
The new domain powers for clerics replaced their domain spell slots - not sure if that's a increase or decrease to their overall power level, but without doing an exhaustive analysis, I'd say for the domains with the better combat spells, it's a bit of a decrease.
|
I have a general dislike of druids, not least because they seem to have become first and foremost the shapeshifting-class, which I really don't feel there's a need; consequently I'd balance them by qualifying them out of a campaign I ran.
Cleric I'd completely overhaul -- start with something nearer the cloistered cleric and make them more domain-oriented with their focus more on their domain SLAs than on spells from the cleric base list.
Under this model the druid would just be a particular type of nature-oriented cleric with much less emphasis on shapeshifting.
the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid were always pretty much on par with each other though for completely different reasons.
The Wizard and Druid in particular have been brought quite low by the Nerf Bat. (a necessary hit, but still a hard one to swallow).
I've not seen very much in the way of Cleric nerfs except for maybe Implosion getting the SoD-treatment same as most of the wizard SoD's.
Divine Power has received some nerfs though to be honest I'm not sure how well it's actually *nerfed* in actual game play.
(bonuses scale with level instead of being set, you get an extra attack at your highest that doesn't stack with haste but you no longer get fighter attack bonus).Righteous Might seems to actually have gotten a buff (to the tune of +2 con and the very slight DR adjustment).
Otherwise I don't see they've done much to "decrease" the power of clerics, so much as they have increased their sheer healing ability.
While I haven't tested it, I think we've seen a great nerfing of the wizard and druid, while keeping the Cleric where it was power wise- or even slightly buffing it. While I like the channeling energy thing for healing, it Does leave clerics alot of spells open to buff themselves. Extra healing is good, but I'm curious to see how it goes in actual game play. It may be the the channeling is too powerful not because of what it does, but because of what it allows the cleric to do with his spell slots.
-S
About the fixes where exactly do you refer from? Can you tell please? Think I missed something and I am not up to date!
Thank you in advance!
I have always noticed these two classes to be overpowered in 3.5.
Most of my players have complained about these two classes overshadowing the wizard and being pretty good at martial fighting to. Of course this could just be my campaign.
I am wondering if Pathfinder has took any steps to fix this possible issue.
As pointed out already, the druid has been drastically nerfed in terms of melee potential; Wild Shape only gives an enhancement bonus on Str and Con now instead of replacing your stats completely.
The cleric gained the ability to heal with turning attempts, but certain cleric spells got nerfed; in particular, Divine Power doesn't change your BAB and save-or-die spells now just do damage. Clerical domains were also changed, some for the better and some for the worse. I think clerics ended up about the same as before (but with more healing).
Download the latest alpha document. They contain the most recent version of changed classes, spells, magical items, et al.
Each spell I mentioned is covered in that document.
annnd.. doh.. I always forget about the change to their domains.
-S
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
Download the latest alpha document. They contain the most recent version of changed classes, spells, magical items, et al.
-S
You might want to wait on the download until Thursday, since the Beta document will be available then. No point in reading the alpha when 2 days later some of what you read will have changed.
I have always noticed these two classes to be overpowered in 3.5.
Most of my players have complained about these two classes overshadowing the wizard and being pretty good at martial fighting to. Of course this could just be my campaign.
I am wondering if Pathfinder has took any steps to fix this possible issue.
I wouldn't argue that clerics are overpowered. I would however argue that they are the most versitile in the PHB. Cleric of a war god can get a nifty martial weapon while a cleric of a thieving god can ahve freedom of movement.
Their raw spellcasting power is between wizard and bard, but the compensate for that with versitility. They get access to every cleric spell on the list while wizards have to either buy or seek out their spells.
Clerics weapon choice is generally closer to bard then anyone else.
The funny thing is is that I tend to think of the druid as the cleric done right. I think of druid as a wilderness cleric. I think of the cleric as a war cleric. I'd still like to see the cleric for the gods of peace or love or thievery or etc. Those, IMO, are not represented well by either option.
To every Achilles, there is a heel.
-S
My playtesting as pointed out that the huge drawback for druids in wild shape now is their AC, which typically drops through the floor.
Well one of the big things about the change is that it makes the Druid much more attribute dependent. Seems to me part of the solution would be a high dexterity and weapon finesse (natural weapons are finessable I believe). The other half of the solution is magic. Bracers of armor, Barkskin, Cats Grace is particularly good in combination with weapon finesse.
They can be good at melee, but if they want to be competitive with the martial classes they need to work at it. That is as it should be.
The cleric on the other hand... I'm not sure this goes far enough.
My playtesting as pointed out that the huge drawback for druids in wild shape now is their AC, which typically drops through the floor.Well one of the big things about the change is that it makes the Druid much more attribute dependent. Seems to me part of the solution would be a high dexterity and weapon finesse (natural weapons are finessable I believe).
I was going to say something along these lines, but Dennis beat me to it. In an old thread, I compared the AC for a druid with 14 Dex at a few different levels; it ended up being about 1 point worse for the Pathfinder druid. YMMV.
Here's the link:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/feedback/alpha2/racesClasses/archives/theDruidAndTheElephantInTheRoom
I was going to say something along these lines, but Dennis beat me to it. In an old thread, I compared the AC for a druid with 14 Dex at a few different levels; it ended up being about 1 point worse for the Pathfinder druid. YMMV.My playtesting as pointed out that the huge drawback for druids in wild shape now is their AC, which typically drops through the floor.Well one of the big things about the change is that it makes the Druid much more attribute dependent. Seems to me part of the solution would be a high dexterity and weapon finesse (natural weapons are finessable I believe).
That may be where I picked it up :)
I'm thinking the cleric is alone as the king of the hill now. Not having to burn spells to heal really puts them at an advantage. The loss of spells per day is trivial when you look at it. They lose one first level spell at 11th level, a second level spell at 13th, etc... they are 'losing' spells at the very end of their usefulness.
Channeling energy versus undead really works well... I'm not so sure if the healing end of things isn't too powerful. It really makes the cleric into the one class that you cannot skip. While they held the title of best healer before, the gap is so huge now that no one would even suggest the druid could substitute as a healer for the cleric.
Also previously they had to burn spells to heal before... unless the party is fighting undead the healing doesn't cut into their combat effectiveness.
|
|
Seems to me part of the solution would be a high dexterity and weapon finesse (natural weapons are finessable I believe). The other half of the solution is magic. Bracers of armor, Barkskin, Cats Grace is particularly good in combination with weapon finesse.
They can be good at melee, but if they want to be competitive with the martial classes they need to work at it. That is as it should be.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but consider a druid with a +1 hide shirt. With a max Dex bonus of +4, most druids would be able to take full advantage of their Dexterity - even boosted with cat's grace - and still get the full benefits of the +5 armor bonus from the hide shirt. In switching to wild shape, that armor bonus is lost, and is replaced by either a +1 or +2 natural armor bonus instead. That's a -3 penalty to AC. Bracers of armor of course help, but they're 4 points of AC behind the hide shirt for the same cost, which is only worth it if you really plan to spend all of your time wildshaped. Barkskin and most other AC boosts apply equally well to both armored and unarmored characters, so they're basically a wash.
If you have a good AC to begin with, you might not feel it too much - but if you don't, it becomes a major issue very quickly.
If you have a good AC to begin with, you might not feel it too much - but if you don't, it becomes a major issue very quickly.
Don't get me wrong -- wild shape will generally hurt your AC. But my point was that it's not much worse in Pathfinder than it was in 3.5 (unless your Dex is pretty low).
You said: "My playtesting [h]as pointed out that the huge drawback for druids in wild shape now is their AC, which typically drops through the floor." It was the word "now" that I was taking issue with, not the AC "drop[ping] through the floor".
Of course, once you can afford some armor with the Wild enhancement, your AC will be fine again.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but consider a druid with a +1 hide shirt. With a max Dex bonus of +4, most druids would be able to take full advantage of their Dexterity - even boosted with cat's grace - and still get the full benefits of the +5 armor bonus from the hide shirt. In switching to wild shape, that armor bonus is lost, and is replaced by either a +1 or +2 natural armor bonus instead. That's a -3 penalty to AC. Bracers of armor of course help, but they're 4 points of AC behind the hide shirt for the same cost, which is only worth it if you really plan to spend all of your time wildshaped. Barkskin and most other AC boosts apply equally well to both armored and unarmored characters, so they're basically a wash.
If you have a good AC to begin with, you might not feel it too much - but if you don't, it becomes a major issue very quickly.
If you plan on doing most of your combat in wild shape then you optimize your AC for wild shape not for human form. Bracers of Armor, High Dex + Finesse, Amulet of Natural Armor (stacks with WS I believe), Ring of Protection, etc. I wouldn't even bother with enchanting hide armor after I could wild shape since as you point out it's worthless.
If you have a good AC to begin with, you might not feel it too much - but if you don't, it becomes a major issue very quickly.Don't get me wrong -- wild shape will generally hurt your AC. But my point was that it's not much worse in Pathfinder than it was in 3.5 (unless your Dex is pretty low).
Actually with only mild changes in strategy Wild Shape AC will be significantly better than in 3.5. Under 3.5 90% of magic items are worthless in wild shape unless specifically designed for druids. Under PRPG the Dexterity Belt, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, etc. all work under Wild Shape unaltered (upon review the Bracers alas do not). Armor with Wild Shape is much less of a bargain now since so many other buffs can pass through.
Divine Power should have a bonus different to divine favour? What am I missing?