I like the Rage Powers, diversity is needed with the Barbarian class, but keeping up with points is not an easy task. Can you make the powers into a Feat tree mechanic or even a spell list (rage powers per day) just so GMs can keep players in check without having to do the math. You could even make it an optional way of doing the powers.
thanks
They don't really seem any more complicated than Hit Points are,
but maybe that's my civilized, literate side coming out :-)
The most 'efficient' use of Rage Points is probably using them just for Raging, and that's simple to use, since you just tick off your Rage Points every round you stay in Rage...
If you want to simplify the Rage Powers to X/day, you can look at it by adding 1 to the cost for each power (to account for the Rage maintenance cost that round), and divide the total Rage Points by that number - That's the number of time's per day you can use that power! (You might get a 'remainder' which you could use to Rage for extra rounds)
If you really want to simplify, you can just rule that all Powers have the same cost, so you can easily use the above formula to determine how many times per day you can use ANY of your Rage Powers... The problem this has is that then there would be pressure to make sure all the Rage Powers are "Equal"...
And if after all, you still like the flexibility of deciding whether to use Rage Powers or just Raging for longer... That's what Rage Points are for! :-)
They don't really seem any more complicated than Hit Points are, but maybe that's my civilized, literate side coming out :-)
Well, that's the big turn-off point for me. True, rage points are not that complicated once you give it a try. Yet, they don't look simple from the first impression; on the contrary, they look intimidating and rational.
Rules and mechanics should not appear intimidating for players, especially new players. Intimidating is what you barbarian should be, not the apparent workload that comes with it.
Secondly, barbarians are intuitive characters (rather than rational characters) and the mechanics of running one should also be intuitive. When the metagaming experience of running the characters is opposed to what the character should be, it makes it harder to "be in the mood".
I realize that not every player needs to be its character, but for those who enjoy method acting (or method roleplaying I guess), rage points are a big turn-off.
I would appreciate if Paizo came-up with a rage/day system similar to the paladin's lay-of-hands/aura power mechanic, even if it comes as an alternated rules or even web enhancement.
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I find that it's no more complicated than fussing about with remembering to add your Ranger's Favored Enemy bonus, or managing Druid Wild Shape.
It's most definitely less hassle than dealing with spells.
Really, only the Fighter and maybe the rogue have less to deal with. It's not as if you have a lot of them really, and mechanic wise the individual powers are pretty easy to deal with. If you're having trouble keeping count, then just get a little dish filled with as many counters as you have rage points, and it seems like problem solved.
The flexibility of the rage system is what makes it so inviting, so I'd be against anything that changes it. If someone comes up with an alternate that they like to use, that's fine for them, but the system that's in place now works remarkably well.
I like the Rage point counter idea. Nice, I will have to try that.
thanks
Paizo doesn't need to "come up" with a rage/day mechanic, because it already existed in 3.5/OGL - Paizo replaced it, also adding Rage Powers. If you want to use Rage Powers with a #/day mechanic, you will have to worry about them all being "Equal".
(There's nothing to stop you from playing a 3.5/OGL PC class in a game otherwise using Pathfinder rules, so you can play with the "old" Barbarian if you prefer. PRPG classes are just stronger.)
If you're DMing unexperienced players, I would suggest advising your players to not worry about the Rage Powers at lower levels, and just focus on the Rage Points = Rounds of Rage. After some practice using it, once they reach higher levels, THEN they'll be asking you when they can start busting out the Rage Powers.
If you take Rage Powers out of the equation, you're simply faced with Rounds of Rage/day vs. Rage Encounters/day, and Rage Points are stronger if you have multiple short encounters (most common). If your players prefer the old 3.5 rage/day mechanic, I'd let them, but it just becomes problematic how Rage Powers would fit in with that (unless you don't use them at all.)
I actually have a suggestion for how the effects of Rage could be more clearly described in the rules (CON bonus Hit Points), but I'm waiting for Beta before I post them, in case changes have already been made.
Hey, maybe even use beer caps as Rage Counters...
Then that Rage Exhaustion could be more easily 'role-played'
("Phew! I blew 20 Rage Points in that fight... I wish... I could die!")
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Hey, maybe even use beer caps as Rage Counters...
Then that Rage Exhaustion could be more easily 'role-played'
("Phew! I blew 20 Rage Points in that fight... I wish... I could die!")
While it might be better role playing I think it might get too LOUD (until the player passes out). I think I will stick with poker chips. We use them for HP and Action Points now anyway and there is a third color in the box so...
Paizo doesn't need to "come up" with a rage/day mechanic, because it already existed in 3.5/OGL - Paizo replaced it, also adding Rage Powers. If you want to use Rage Powers with a #/day mechanic, you will have to worry about them all being "Equal".
Don't get me wrong, the issue has nothing to do with the concept of the rage powers itself; that is a great idea. My argument is only about how the management of the rage points (which are used to feed your rage and the rage points) is "unbarbarian" in the way they are handled.
The paladin doesn't have X "lay on hand" points, she can perform X/day lay on hands which she can spend to heal allies OR feed auras etc. Some powerful auras take 2 daily uses of lay on hands. Rage powers could easily be handled the same way, making the management of rage points less rational and more "barbarian-like". Obviously, this variant would be less precise in the micromanagement of the barbarian. Whether how much less precision vs less hassle would really improve the gaming experience needs to be though-out more carefully, but that's the basic idea.
It seems that about 50% of the people like the rage points and 50% do not. In other words, many people are likely to houserule it; I know I will. If Paizo came up with an official variant rule for rage powers, then most people would have a "canon" mechanic for handling rage powers (wither with rage points or rage/day).
If Paizo prefers to keep rage points for their standard rules (it was their original idea after all), a simple conversion guide would suffice for everybody to be able to convert rage point the same way, regardless if the rage power is taken from the core book or from a supplement book.
The paladin doesn't have X "lay on hand" points, she can perform X/day lay on hands which she can spend to heal allies OR feed auras etc. Some powerful auras take 2 daily uses of lay on hands. Rage powers could easily be handled the same way, making the management of rage points less rational and more "barbarian-like".
So a barbarian with 100 rage "points" is bad, but a barbarian with rage 100/day would be good? Huh.
I suspect what you're trying to get at is that barbarians have too many "points".
So a barbarian with 100 rage "points" is bad, but a barbarian with rage 100/day would be good? Huh.
I suspect what you're trying to get at is that barbarians have too many "points".
Correct. The barbarian would have half a dozen uses/day at mid level (1/2 barbarian level + CON bonus if we re-use the same progression as the paladin), and the maths are just simpler and more intuitive; 1 to initiate the rage, 1 to use a rage power. Make the rage last for he whole encounter for simplicity sake.
No need to memorize how many points this power need, the total is easy to keep in mind or to keep track with counter or countdown-dice (otherwise you need a whole jug of poker chips by the time you reach 10th level).
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No need to memorize how many points this power need, the total is easy to keep in mind or to keep track with counter or countdown-dice (otherwise you need a whole jug of poker chips by the time you reach 10th level).
That's why you have the name of the power and it's points written on the character sheet.
It's the same as tracking hit points: Use hash marks, write down numbers, or get a bunch of counting stones, bottle tops or something else small.
But, if you want to limit yourself go ahead. Just because you're playing a savage doesn't mean that you, (or your character) doesn't have to think.
Said it before. I like the versatility of the barbarian's rage powers but I'm rather town between liking and not-liking rage points. Actually I see no need to introduce a new "sub-system" of rules. As others already said, there is already the x/day rules mechanic, and I would rather like to see the rage powers gained at different levels if there is no way to "equavize" them balanced-wise.
My suggestion is to keep rage point costs for entering and maintaining rage, but make all rage powers free to use, one per round, while raging.
If it's really too complicated to check off X points/tokens when you use a Rage Power... then you DON'T HAVE TO USE THEM, and you get to Rage MUCH longer than someone who does (vanilla Rage is MUCH more efficient than most of the Powers) For a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian, for instance, it's particularly advantageous to just vanilla rage, taking advantage of the extra Whirling Frenzy attack at no extra cost (compared, say, to Elemental Fury)
At least maintaining the old #Rages/day mechanic instead of 1 Rage Point/round would ACTUALLY achieve simplicity (but with the problem of granularity if Rage Powers are kept.)
Your suggestion would retain the 'complication' of deducting 1 Rage Point/round, but remove their raison d'etre, enforcing a trade-off between time in Rage and using Rage Powers (who would ever just "vanilla Rage" under your system?) Your suggestion thus blurs the distinction between Rage Powers and Feats, IMHO.
I beleive the conversion from #Rages/day to Rage Points was supposed to be largely "neutral" given an average number of rounds per encounter (NOT using Rage Powers). The Rage Powers aren't in ADDITION to Rage, they're supposed to be zero-sum, in other words.
I'm not opposed to the old mechanic being an alternate rule - Like I said, I think they're supposed to be 'neutral'/equivalent, but I don't think it's viable to mix the new Rage Powers with the old Rages/day. If all the Rage Powers cost the same (or 2x, 3x) as one entire Rage encounter use, it's too prohibitive to use them, especially at lower levels, or they would need to be ramped up in power significantly, which is a big change.
There's one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet this thread. People complain about tracking points, but in my playtesting experience barbarians almost always stick to raging and not bothering with the other stuff (except maybe for Surprise Accuracy + Power Attack). So the vast majority of the time we were just counting the number of rounds the barbarian has been raging, which you have to do in 3.5 anyways.