To tell the truth... I love this guy. I almost want to see a webcomic devoted to him. I'm definitely throwing him into my homebrew.
Writing these little in-jokes is what makes writing fun. Don't begrudge WotC writers this little bit of leeway; they've got enough rules and regulations to tie them down already without adding "Thou shalt not poke fun" to the list.
Those of you who think this is some kind of veiled insult: it is my sincere personal opinion that I wouldn't want to game at your table. I don't think I can be nearly serious enough, while having fun that is, to hang with you.
I agree. Lighten up grognards. Of course... The joke might not have been as good if the gognards didn't react in such a manner...
Heck, my new campaign introduced a new character 3 sessions in. The party rescued a hapless cleric who had been captured by Ogres and was about to go into the cooking pot. The group promptly christened him 'Stewey' and set off for adventure. The player erased the name he had and wrote that in.
TMan
Nice!
Actually my objection to this is not based upon edition. Its based on the fact the this is very slapstick in the middle of a bunch of other characters. While I understand it is a poll, how many of you would actually want to play this guy compared to the other 4 characters that they selected?
Imagine if you will that this was one of the characters selected for the Penny Arcade podcast, I could see them making tons of jokes about it. And jokes are OK every now and then, but really? How many people will get to play with 'Nard at an Rpga event? How many times will his name distract from the organized game play? Is it that worth the humor the writer put into it? That's my point.
Hey! Hey! Whoa now! Don't try to take your thread back with sound rationale and legitimate concern! Not when I have yet to get my pitchfork, torch, and train ticket to Renton!
Hey! Hey! Whoa now! Don't try to take your thread back with sound rationale and legitimate concern! Not when I have yet to get my pitchfork, torch, and train ticket to Renton!Actually my objection to this is not based upon edition. Its based on the fact the this is very slapstick in the middle of a bunch of other characters. While I understand it is a poll, how many of you would actually want to play this guy compared to the other 4 characters that they selected?
Imagine if you will that this was one of the characters selected for the Penny Arcade podcast, I could see them making tons of jokes about it. And jokes are OK every now and then, but really? How many people will get to play with 'Nard at an Rpga event? How many times will his name distract from the organized game play? Is it that worth the humor the writer put into it? That's my point.
Behold Logic, destroyer of worlds. Pretty, no? She can be a fickle mistress though.
Writing these little in-jokes is what makes writing fun. Don't begrudge WotC writers this little bit of leeway; they've got enough rules and regulations to tie them down already without adding "Thou shalt not poke fun" to the list.
I am all for wit and humor in writing. 'Nard would make a memorable npc certainly. He would be incredibly fun to tempt the pc's with in a variety of comical ways. It just really doesn't sit well for organized play in my opinion(unless its all about being comical).
I *actually* like the rest of his back story except for his nickname.
Also, as scary as this might seem to many of you, I like the confessions column a lot.
|
You mean the Pathfinder class and ability which existed prior to Paizo's announcement that they were not going to convert to 4e? Then again, WotC did buy that time machine from TSR. They probably looked into the future, saw that Paizo was not going to make Pathfinder a 4e product, and slipped in that joke before anyone knew what Paizo was planning (even the staff of Paizo!).Damn sneaky bastards.
No, it was based off the Pathfinder adventure series which was announced prior to the end run of the Dungeon and Dragon magazines which was way before the announcement of 4e.
Thus they had plenty of time to create their "Pathfinder - wrong step" ability after Paizo decided to not go the route of "Dumb & Dumber" aka "D&D 4e" but before 4e was actually released in print.
So yeah, no time machine needed... but gg though, wotc needs all the support they can get.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
You mean the Pathfinder class and ability which existed prior to Paizo's announcement that they were not going to convert to 4e? Then again, WotC did buy that time machine from TSR. They probably looked into the future, saw that Paizo was not going to make Pathfinder a 4e product, and slipped in that joke before anyone knew what Paizo was planning (even the staff of Paizo!).Damn sneaky bastards.
No, it was based off the Pathfinder adventure series which was announced prior to the end run of the Dungeon and Dragon magazines which was way before the announcement of 4e.
Thus they had plenty of time to create their "Pathfinder - wrong step" ability after Paizo decided to not go the route of "Dumb & Dumber" aka "D&D 4e" but before 4e was actually released in print.
So yeah, no time machine needed... but gg though, wotc needs all the support they can get.
Okay, let's make a timeline:
1. Paizo announces Pathfinder.
2. WotC announces 4e.
3. WotC releases playtest copies of 4e which include the Pathfinder prestige class and the wrong-step ability.
4. Paizo announces they will not go 4e.
So, you're argument is that WotC made a jab about Pathfinder before they even knew it would be a non-4e product? What if Pathfinder had gone 4e? Would the joke have even made any sense?
I guess you don't need a time machine. A ouija board would suffice.
|
|
Okay, let's make a timeline:
3. WotC releases playtest copies of 4e which include the Pathfinder prestige class and the wrong-step ability.
So, you're argument is that WotC made a jab about Pathfinder before they even knew it would be a non-4e product? What if Pathfinder had gone 4e? Would the joke have even made any sense?
I must have missed the memo on this one. Unless you have proof or a dated pdf I would say that you are blowing smoke.
AFAIK "wrong step" was not released in any form before PF announced it was not going 4e. If you have proof I will cede the point, otherwise take the sh(r)ill over to gleemax.|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Okay, let's make a timeline:
3. WotC releases playtest copies of 4e which include the Pathfinder prestige class and the wrong-step ability.
So, you're argument is that WotC made a jab about Pathfinder before they even knew it would be a non-4e product? What if Pathfinder had gone 4e? Would the joke have even made any sense?
I must have missed the memo on this one. Unless you have proof or a dated pdf I would say that you are blowing smoke.
AFAIK "wrong step" was not released in any form before PF announced it was not going 4e. If you have proof I will cede the point, otherwise take the sh(r)ill over to gleemax.
Neh. You're wrong. I know it. Playtesters know it. Whether or not you admit it is irrelevant. No one's going to give you a dated pdf in violation of their NDA just to prove it.
|
|
Neh. You're wrong. I know it. Playtesters know it. Whether or not you admit it is irrelevant.Okay, let's make a timeline:
3. WotC releases playtest copies of 4e which include the Pathfinder prestige class and the wrong-step ability.
So, you're argument is that WotC made a jab about Pathfinder before they even knew it would be a non-4e product? What if Pathfinder had gone 4e? Would the joke have even made any sense?
I must have missed the memo on this one. Unless you have proof or a dated pdf I would say that you are blowing smoke.
AFAIK "wrong step" was not released in any form before PF announced it was not going 4e. If you have proof I will cede the point, otherwise take the sh(r)ill over to gleemax.
4venger much? Like I said..no proof, kindly stfu unless you can produce.
Conversely don't you also have to provide proof to the contrary, then?
Dudes... come on. You disagree and you're both strong personalities. Fair enough. You'll likely never be friends.
But please, don't say STFU. Say everything you want to say but leave the angry obscenities out of it. We're allowed to self moderate here on Paizo specifically because we don't do that kind of stuff.
Also, please don't now tell me to STFU because I will weep and weep and never stop weeping.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
You can try to support facts with proof vs your word..which is worthless.
Again, no proof=stfu
Not sure why the burden of proof is on me, particularly when you're the one making the false assertion. And, as I've already pointed out, there are NDAs limiting the ability of anyone to offer proof. If you knew anything about the 4e playtests, you would know that.
Maybe Vic Wertz will show up to say the same thing and you can tell him to STFU too. He loves that sorta thing.
Paizo 3e announcement = March 18, 2008
4e off to printer announcement = March 19, 2008
I'd like to think that they decided to change the name of one of the prestige classes and powers, got it approved by all the editors, got together with the graphic designers, and changed the necessary pdf pages in a 200+ page document, all in less than 24 hours so that they could have a rather minor and silly jab at a company half of them used to work at.
Yeah, it's possible. Hey, there's Elvis, gotta go.
|
|
You can try to support facts with proof vs your word..which is worthless.
Again, no proof=stfu
Not sure why the burden of proof is on me, particularly when you're the one making the false assertion. And, as I've already pointed out, there are NDAs limiting the ability of anyone to offer proof. If you knew anything about the 4e playtests, you would know that.
Maybe Vic Wertz will show up to say the same thing and you can tell him to STFU too. He loves that sorta thing.
Yeah and someone in playtest told him the same thing. I am not doubting the existence of the Pathfinder paragon path....I am doubting the "wrong step" ability. Unless I can see the doc for myself I am going to assume it is a jab at PFRPG.
I'll keep the "stfu" for the idiots that deserve it, I don't think paizo staff qualify...now you on the other hand...
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Yeah and someone in playtest told him the same thing. I am not doubting the existence of the Pathfinder paragon path....I am doubting the "wrong step" ability. Unless I can see the doc for myself I am going to assume it is a jab at PFRPG.I'll keep the "stfu" for the idiots that deserve it, I don't think paizo staff qualify...now you on the other hand...
It's a free country, you can be as wrong and paranoid as you want. If you read the first letters of each word on the page 356, they spell out "John is dead." True story.
|
|
Paizo 3e announcement = March 18, 2008
4e off to printer announcement = March 19, 2008I'd like to think that they decided to change the name of one of the prestige classes and powers, got it approved by all the editors, got together with the graphic designers, and changed the necessary pdf pages in a 200+ page document, all in less than 24 hours so that they could have a rather minor and silly jab at a company half of them used to work at.
Yeah, it's possible. Hey, there's Elvis, gotta go.
Thats the point though..it didn't have to come to the announcement of PFRPG, just the fact that Paizo was not going to be on board with wotc...hence the "wrong step".
*munches popcorn*
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Thats the point though..it didn't have to come to the announcement of PFRPG, just the fact that Paizo was not going to be on board with wotc...hence the "wrong step".
Hence, the ouija board. If you're going to make predictions about future unknown events, there's no greater tool.
Hence, the ouija board. If you're going to make predictions about future unknown events, there's no greater tool.
Liar! Everyone knows the true oracle of the future is the magic eightball. I know, 'cause mine told me so. :P
Yeah I got cotton candy, hot dogs, peanuts. What you want?
Geddoudovit, dang kid!
Liar! Everyone knows the true oracle of the future is the magic eightball. I know, 'cause mine told me so. :P
Hence, the ouija board. If you're going to make predictions about future unknown events, there's no greater tool.
Yeah I got cotton candy, hot dogs, peanuts. What you want?
<Walks in with a cold six pack.>
"Beer?"
"Hell yeah."
|
|
Hence, the ouija board. If you're going to make predictions about future unknown events, there's no greater tool.
Thats the point though..it didn't have to come to the announcement of PFRPG, just the fact that Paizo was not going to be on board with wotc...hence the "wrong step".
Like I said, provide the proof. You can't or you won't so I will go with the facts I have.
|
Like I said, provide the proof. You can't or you won't so I will go with the facts I have.Hence, the ouija board. If you're going to make predictions about future unknown events, there's no greater tool.
Thats the point though..it didn't have to come to the announcement of PFRPG, just the fact that Paizo was not going to be on board with wotc...hence the "wrong step".
Which really aren't facts at all.
<contemplates that>
Hmmmm.....you're funny. I like you.
What, no movie candies?
When I was three I suckled on a sugar daddy candy, which was this caramel glue stick. While in my mother's arms I stuck it in her long black hair.
The solution required scissors.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Like I said, provide the proof. You can't or you won't so I will go with the facts I have.
I'm pretty sure facts are true, which is what differentiates them from your assertion. You are free to continue with the incorrect beliefs and conspiracy theories scraped together in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster (which is a FACT until you can prove otherwise) would like your cooperation in this matter. Please put on your tinfoil hat, turn to page 86 in your hymnals, and sing, "We all have a Friend in Meatballs."
Edit: Could I have a cold one, please?
Back to grognard...I don't think it was meant as a jab at pre-4e players. Someone with better knowledge please correct me, but if I remember "grognard" is what Napoleon called his grumbling veterans. That fits the PC description fairly well.
Absolutely right about the definition, but given the exact wording of the character entry, and the "edition wars" climate, I think it was a soft jab. Now, as a grognard myself, I can take a jab. I'm not that thin skinned. However WotC should not call me names anytime, ever. I've given them many thousands of dollars since they took over D&D and I deserve to be respected for my former allegiance. Sorry I'm not going along for the ride, but as a good former customer, I still deserve respect.
Otherwise it's like, "If you loved the old Mello Yello soda... try our NEW FORMULA with added Beta-carotene! Or you're lame!"
;)
Edit: Could I have a cold one, please?
<Tosses a brew.>
Edit: Could I have a cold one, please?<Tosses a brew.>
<Click...fizz>
Back to grognard...I don't think it was meant as a jab at pre-4e players. Someone with better knowledge please correct me, but if I remember "grognard" is what Napoleon called his grumbling veterans. That fits the PC description fairly well.
Absolutely right about the definition, but given the exact wording of the character entry, and the "edition wars" climate, I think it was a soft jab. Now, as a grognard myself, I can take a jab. I'm not that thin skinned. However WotC should not call me names anytime, ever. I've given them many thousands of dollars since they took over D&D and I deserve to be respected for my former allegiance. Sorry I'm not going along for the ride, but as a good former customer, I still deserve respect.
Otherwise it's like, "If you loved the old Mello Yello soda... try our NEW FORMULA with added Beta-carotene! Or you're lame!"
;)
Every time I read it it gets funnier and funnier. And reading this thread seems to be contributing to my waxing merriment.
I also think anyone who's outraged at this is just looking for excuses to be so.
Agreed.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Absolutely right about the definition, but given the exact wording of the character entry, and the "edition wars" climate, I think it was a soft jab. Now, as a grognard myself, I can take a jab. I'm not that thin skinned. However WotC should not call me names anytime, ever. I've given them many thousands of dollars since they took over D&D and I deserve to be respected for my former allegiance. Sorry I'm not going along for the ride, but as a good former customer, I still deserve respect.Otherwise it's like, "If you loved the old Mello Yello soda... try our NEW FORMULA with added Beta-carotene! Or you're lame!"
;)
I'm trying to ask this as non-bastardly as possible, so pretend someone who isn't a bastard and is innocent is asking this, but what's the offensive part? Is it just the term grognard being used or is it the fact that he runs a failing business?
The more I read it, the more I find it funny, but not in a "those grognards who didn't convert suck" kinda way, but more in a "we all love to tell stories about the good ole' days of gaming when we first started playing." More poking fun at the rosy colored memories of youthful gaming than the current edition war stuff.
|
|
Which really aren't facts at all.<contemplates that>
Hmmmm.....you're funny. I like you.
Wow, the 4venger MO on a paizo board.
4e PHB Paragon ability "wrong step" = Fact
Pathfinder as flagship product annouced last year before mags expire = fact
Paizo not onboard with 4e sometime before it heads off to the printer =fact
Some 4tard on the intarweb telling me that "wrong step" was included in 4e during the playtest = unproven fact.
And that stands no matter how many 4tards/4e xmen want to dogpile on the issue.
Again as I said earlier I will chalk it up to a coincidence if I am given proof that the ability existed early on in the playtest. Otherwise please,....
well you know the rest.
Is this what they call a cock fight?
Cockerel fight?
Rooster fight?
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Wow, the 4venger MO on a paizo board.
4e PHB Paragon ability "wrong step" = Fact
Pathfinder as flagship product annouced last year before mags expire = fact
Paizo not onboard with 4e sometime before it heads off to the printer =fact
Some 4tard on the intarweb telling me that "wrong step" was included in 4e during the playtest = unproven fact.And that stands no matter how many 4tards/4e xmen want to dogpile on the issue.
Again as I said earlier I will chalk it up to a coincidence if I am given proof that the ability existed early on in the playtest. Otherwise please,....
well you know the rest.
Another true story. If you post something you made up enough times on the internet, it will magically become true. If you lace it with a bunch of insults and attempted bullying, it also shows you're good in bed and a generally awesome human.
Unfortunately, the number of times you need to post something incorrect in order to make it true is 5.6 million. Good luck. Eventually, through the powers of truthomancy, you will convert that nugget of wrong into a correct statement.
Edit: Wait a minute...did that post just suggest that I was a member of the X-men?!?! Check out the part I put in bold! Sweet!!!
Now to post it 5.6 million times in order to make it true...
And that stands no matter how many 4tards/4e xmen want to dogpile on the issue.
You know, I'm not the biggest 4th edition cheerleader by any means, but honestly, I don't know what the timeline was or the history behind the naming convention of a particular paragon path, and most of the time in life, I find it easier to just kind of take things at face value, and until someone says, "yeah, we were taking a shot," there isn't much point in this conjecture.
Also, I'll take people that disagree with me, substantively, that I've talked to and developed a respect for over a period of time, over someone that agrees with me and decides the best way to "win" an arguement is to try and start flinging epithets at them.