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Which really aren't facts at all.<contemplates that>
Hmmmm.....you're funny. I like you.
Wow, the 4venger MO on a paizo board.
4e PHB Paragon ability "wrong step" = Fact
Pathfinder as flagship product annouced last year before mags expire = fact
Paizo not onboard with 4e sometime before it heads off to the printer =fact
Some 4tard on the intarweb telling me that "wrong step" was included in 4e during the playtest = unproven fact.And that stands no matter how many 4tards/4e xmen want to dogpile on the issue.
Again as I said earlier I will chalk it up to a coincidence if I am given proof that the ability existed early on in the playtest. Otherwise please,....
well you know the rest.
<grin> Oh my...thanks for the laugh.
Nice.
Any thing else you want to do while you have the stage? No, really, I insist.
How about that "cut off the arm and grow a new troll trick" you guys are so good at?
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You know, I'm not the biggest 4th edition cheerleader by any means,
And that stands no matter how many 4tards/4e xmen want to dogpile on the issue.
Ill top that im not even a fan of 4E (I believe ive made that point before) but even im not seeing the whole Pathfinder = cheap shot formula some people are seeing. You would be just as well saying it was a cheap shot at a certain film with American indians and norsemen who look like Warhammer chaos warriors while youre at it.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Actually on this board..aren't you the troll? Paizo isn't supporting 4e at this time, so what the hell are you guys doing here besides crapping up the threads?
I dunno. Seeing as how I've been a regular poster here for nearly three years now, am a subscriber to all of Paizo's products (including those that other posters are not even aware of, such as Bella Sara), and have a large number of friends on these boards, I sorta thought I fit right in.
Don't be bitter just because you're wrong. Just be a man and admit to it.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I dunno. Seeing as how I've been a regular poster here for nearly three years now, am a subscriber to all of Paizo's products (including those that other posters are not even aware of, such as Bella Sara), and have a large number of friends on these boards, I sorta thought I fit right in.Don't be bitter just because you're wrong. Just be a man and admit to it.
There he goes again, rubbing his awesome Bella Sara subscription in all of our faces.
:D
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Actually on this board..aren't you the troll? Paizo isn't supporting 4e at this time, so what the hell are you guys doing here besides crapping up the threads?I dunno. Seeing as how I've been a regular poster here for nearly three years now, am a subscriber to all of Paizo's products (including those that other posters are not even aware of, such as Bella Sara), and have a large number of friends on these boards, I sorta thought I fit right in.
Don't be bitter just because you're wrong. Just be a man and admit to it.
I am glad you have alot of good friends on an internet board, that tells me tons about you. Good for you.
But I'm not wrong. Again...insults aside (I know it's hard for you), unless I have proof I will assume that it is a jab at paizo. Just like Grog-Nard is a jab at old school players who don't like 4e.
Or are you going to blindly defend that also?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I am glad you have alot of good friends on an internet board, that tells me tons about you. Good for you.
Me too! They are some of the best people I've ever met. This is a rare oasis on the internet, a place of wonder and tranquility.
Then again...some of them hate me...and all of the covet my ponies...
oh yes, we have noticed...
But I'm not wrong. Again...insults aside (I know it's hard for you), unless I have proof I will assume that it is a jab at paizo. Just like Grog-Nard is a jab at old school players who don't like 4e.
But you are! That's the rub. I can say it differently if it will sting less. You are factually incorrect. You don't know what you're talking about. You may have suffered a head injury causing you to misremember something, seek medical attention.
It's hard to be wrong. I wish I could change that. But I can't. Just like you can't change the facts, even when they don't cooperate with your prejudices.
Or are you going to blindly defend that also?
See above. I'm not sure if my defense has been blind or not. I leave that to your judgment, flawed though it may be.
Only 5,599,982 posts to go before you become factually accurate! Good luck.
Wow, the 4venger MO on a paizo board.4e PHB Paragon ability "wrong step" = Fact
Pathfinder as flagship product annouced last year before mags expire = fact
Paizo not onboard with 4e sometime before it heads off to the printer =fact
Some 4tard on the intarweb telling me that "wrong step" was included in 4e during the playtest = unproven fact.And that stands no matter how many 4tards/4e xmen want to dogpile on the issue.
Again as I said earlier I will chalk it up to a coincidence if I am given proof that the ability existed early on in the playtest. Otherwise please,....
well you know the rest.
Oh yeah? Well anyone who disagrees with me should be dismissed as a 3tard. Pleasure accept this statement in lieu of an actual point.
Thanks!
Actually on this board..aren't you the troll? Paizo isn't supporting 4e at this time, so what the hell are you guys doing here besides crapping up the threads?I dunno. Seeing as how I've been a regular poster here for nearly three years now, am a subscriber to all of Paizo's products (including those that other posters are not even aware of, such as Bella Sara), and have a large number of friends on these boards, I sorta thought I fit right in.
Don't be bitter just because you're wrong. Just be a man and admit to it.
What if you're arguing with a woman?
Sexist pig. Or is that sexist pony?
I'm trying to ask this as non-bastardly as possible, so pretend someone who isn't a bastard and is innocent is asking this, but what's the offensive part? Is it just the term grognard being used or is it the fact that he runs a failing business?The more I read it, the more I find it funny, but not in a "those grognards who didn't convert suck" kinda way, but more in a "we all love to tell stories about the good ole' days of gaming when we first started playing." More poking fun at the rosy colored memories of youthful gaming than the current edition war stuff.
Fair enough, my Sebastian dude.
The way I see it, grognard has been regularly used of late to slam those not moving forward with 4th. When I'm on those other boards I see it, and though never meant as a devastating put down, or despite it not being the most regular of events, it happens with enough frequency that I've noticed. I don't pay it much mind, but if WotC themselves got in on the action (if they did, that is - I said first thing that I don't know who supplied that entry... if it was a fan and not a WotC employee no harm no foul sez me) I personally feel that a company should not participate in a climate of contention that some of us think exists around that word, and as I'm finding out now, some of us don't.
Though I completely respect the people who don't see it the way I see it, IMO, people don't mean Napoleonic grognards at this point in time unless they specifically say so. They mean people who won't move on with WotC... but the character entry (if I recall right, and I may very well not be recalling right) suggested that for all his griping, he'll eventually get on board rather than miss the chance for adventure, and that sounds like what I've heard about how us 3E players will eventually follow along. That was my deconstruction at the time anyway. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If I'm right I'm right. It was a personal observation and my feeling on the matter is all. No one cares what I think except for the man who rules the world. He rubs my head each morning and asks me if the stock market will go up or down that day.
unless I have proof I will assume that it is a jab at paizo.
Just like the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it's true until proven false.
Which it won't be.
'Cause the Flying Spaghetti Monster is fact.
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unless I have proof I will assume that it is a jab at paizo.Just like the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it's true until proven false.
Which it won't be.
'Cause the Flying Spaghetti Monster is fact.
Well actually I can confirm the flying spaghetti monster dosent exist.
Mainly because I ate him this morning.
unless I have proof I will assume that it is a jab at paizo.Just like the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it's true until proven false.
Which it won't be.
'Cause the Flying Spaghetti Monster is fact.
Well actually I can confirm the flying spaghetti monster dosent exist.
Mainly because I ate him this morning.
Prove it or STF...oh nevermind.
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Prove it or STF...oh nevermind.unless I have proof I will assume that it is a jab at paizo.Just like the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it's true until proven false.
Which it won't be.
'Cause the Flying Spaghetti Monster is fact.
Well actually I can confirm the flying spaghetti monster dosent exist.
Mainly because I ate him this morning.
Trust me you wont like it if I have to prove it.
Just like the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it's true until proven false.Which it won't be.
'Cause the Flying Spaghetti Monster is fact.
I consider this proof, that you sir Whimsy Chris, are IN FACT, the very Spaghetti monster you speak of! J'ACCUSE!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The way I see it, grognard has been regularly used of late to slam those not moving forward with 4th. When I'm on those other boards I see it, and though never meant as a devastating put down, or despite it not being the most regular of events, it happens with enough frequency that I've noticed. I don't pay it much mind, but if WotC themselves got in on the action (if they did, that is - I said first thing that I don't know who supplied that entry... if it was a fan and not a WotC employee no harm no foul sez me) I personally feel that a company should not participate in a climate of contention that some of us think exists around that word, and as I'm finding out now, some of us don't.
Thanks Jade and fair enough to you as well. I can see and respect that people are still very sensitive about the edition change and would not be happy about this. I've always had a neutral view of grognard, and didn't realize quite how charged the word had become.
In fact, I aspire to be a grognard, but given that I started playing with 2e, I will never have the seniority necessary to make that claim.
Unless everyone who started playing before me were to mysteriously die...
Hmmm...
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I'm going to drop it..not going to cede the point, just drop it. Out of respect for Paizo and also not wanting this to turn into the C&C boards at wotc.I will respectfully take this as an admission that you are wrong, and sing a merry little song about it as I type.
Anonymity is the best disguise though. Keep going.
I consider this proof, that you sir Whimsy Chris, are IN FACT, the very Spaghetti monster you speak of! J'ACCUSE!
I read on a website somewhere that I am not the FSM.
Whose got proof now, huh? WHOSE GOT PROOF NOW?!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Anonymity is the best disguise though. Keep going.I'm going to drop it..not going to cede the point, just drop it. Out of respect for Paizo and also not wanting this to turn into the C&C boards at wotc.I will respectfully take this as an admission that you are wrong, and sing a merry little song about it as I type.
I thought a mask and cape was. Someone better tell Batman.
I thought you left? Or did you come back to confirm that you are wrong.
Come to think of it, you didn't say you weren't wrong. According to my internet logic, that means you admitted you were wrong. Sweet.
Edit: Hey...wait a minute...was that a threat...that's not good...
The way I see it, grognard has been regularly used of late to slam those not moving forward with 4th. When I'm on those other boards I see it, and though never meant as a devastating put down, or despite it not being the most regular of events, it happens with enough frequency that I've noticed. I don't pay it much mind, but if WotC themselves got in on the action (if they did, that is - I said first thing that I don't know who supplied that entry... if it was a fan and not a WotC employee no harm no foul sez me) I personally feel that a company should not participate in a climate of contention that some of us think exists around that word, and as I'm finding out now, some of us don't.
Thanks Jade and fair enough to you as well. I can see and respect that people are still very sensitive about the edition change and would not be happy about this. I've always had a neutral view of grognard, and didn't realize quite how charged the word had become.
In fact, I aspire to be a grognard, but given that I started playing with 2e, I will never have the seniority necessary to make that claim.
Unless everyone who started playing before me were to mysteriously die...
Hmmm...
Thanks. :)
Fact is, I like being a grognard. It suggests vintage. My only concern starts and ends with it being used as an 'edition war' specific put down by an actual game company I've given so much to, as opposed to an agitated fan with a need to get elitist.
I consider this proof, that you sir Whimsy Chris, are IN FACT, the very Spaghetti monster you speak of! J'ACCUSE!I read on a website somewhere that I am not the FSM.
Whose got proof now, huh? WHOSE GOT PROOF NOW?!
I relent. I cannot crack this infallible logic. DRAT!
You are clearly not the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Anonymity is the best disguise though. Keep going.I'm going to drop it..not going to cede the point, just drop it. Out of respect for Paizo and also not wanting this to turn into the C&C boards at wotc.I will respectfully take this as an admission that you are wrong, and sing a merry little song about it as I type.
Why do I find the flailing so entertaining? It's like a car accident...I...just...can't...look...away...
I aspire to be a grognard.
Feed me pony; I adopt you.
Actually on this board..aren't you the troll? Paizo isn't supporting 4e at this time, so what the hell are you guys doing here besides crapping up the threads?
#1 This is the 4E forum of the boards. It is designed to discuss 4E.
#2 Paizo obviously wants a place for the 4E fans among its customers to be able to come without insults and degredation, as proven by the numerous posts they have made regarding this forum.#3 Threadcrapping is coming into a thread and repeatedly posting negative comments without any relevance to the topic at hand.
Don't EVER tell these guys they should just leave. I value Paizo way to much to have someone tell their customers they are not welcome on this board, and you should too. We are a small enough community as it is, we do not need to be losing members over YOUR ego.
On the one hand, someone like you is NEVER going to cause someone as loyal and sharp as Sebastian to leave the site. On the other hand, people posting that kind of "if you like 4E why are you here" crappy posts have already driven away some new board members, and this type of action loses business for Paizo.
Honestly, what prize do you win by losing customers for Paizo?
Now, this post-this post is a threadcrapping response to your trollish behavior. See? This is what Threadcrapping looks like!
If you are insulted or irritated by a perceived slight against 3E holdouts in that joke, you really need to grow a thicker skin. What is it with our culture producing a bunch of pansies that feel like they have a right to never have their oh-so-precious sensibilities offended. It was a semi-funny inside joke that only we gamers could appreciate. Whether you want to believe it or not, WotC is staffed by a bunch of D&D players who love the game and are just doing what they think is best for said game. No one says you have to agree; but if you think there's some subconcious or conspiratorial effort to alienate you, then it's time to take off the tinfoil hat and come on back to reality.
For reference, from Wikipedia (emphasis mine):
Grognard is French for "grumbler". It is not necessarily pejorative and is sometimes used as a compliment. Historically it meant a soldier in Napoleon's army, particularly a member of the Old Guard. It subsequently became an internet pop culture meme.
According to Alan Emrich, "grognard" came to mean a veteran wargamer in the early 1970s. It was first used by John Young, at that time an employee of SPI, and subsequently popularised by Strategy & Tactics magazine.
From wargaming, the term moved to role-playing games where it was used to mean someone who preferred older-than-current editions of a game (for example, a person who stayed with first edition Dungeons & Dragons even after the second or third editions were released). It has subsequently broadened even further in meaning, and now some experienced wikipedia editors display a grognard tag to show they have been a member for a long period and made a substantial number of edits.
Nowadays, in colloquial usage, particularly on the web, it refers to someone who has been involved in a hobby or past-time for a long period, particularly those involved in earlier phases of a now-popular hobby. It is still most often used with reference to wargames or role-playing games.
Today the term Grognard (in the context of the term being used on the wotc D&D website) references those unhappy (for whatever reasons) with 4e. Are there other earlier meanings to the term? Sure, but in this context that's clearly what it's referencing.
So we have wotc, on their website (whoever actually wrote the piece), openly mocking those people. Sorry, but equating your critics to a rather pathetic npc, who has tried to run his own business, and is failing, is clearly a knock (even if it is genuinely meant in jest).
Sebastian (as ardent and blatantly confrontational a pro-4e poster as I've experienced) here may see no harm in that, I think it's a bad idea on wotc's part. Hardly likely to encourage departing customers to stick with 'em, or change their minds and switch to 4e is it?
Re the Pathfinder class thing, hasn't Eric Mona himself posted on this very site his own belief it was a direct jab at Paizo, and it was rather pathetic on wotc part? Maybe someone can find the post?
If you are insulted or irritated by a perceived slight against 3E holdouts in that joke, you really need to grow a thicker skin. What is it with our culture producing a bunch of pansies that feel like they have a right to never have their oh-so-precious sensibilities offended. It was a semi-funny inside joke that only we gamers could appreciate. Whether you want to believe it or not, WotC is staffed by a bunch of D&D players who love the game and are just doing what they think is best for said game. No one says you have to agree; but if you think there's some subconcious or conspiratorial effort to alienate you, then it's time to take off the tinfoil hat and come on back to reality.
Speaking for myself, I'm hardly weeping into my beer regarding this matter.
I'm just saying such stupidity on the part of wotc at this time is a bad idea. But hey, maybe I'm wrong, perhaps wotc isn't going down the pan ... we shall have to wait and see. ;-)
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This whole arguement over the Pathfind PF ability "wrong step" is just ridiculous. Even if it is a minor jab at Paizo, who cares? If it is, it's so subtle, that's hard to get emotional over. It's not like it makes the Pathfinder run into his opponent's sword or anything. The RPG character probably was a bit of a jab to those considered to be "grognards", but what's the big deal? At worst, it's a thinly veiled insult that isn't the smartest or most tasteful thing, but hardly earth-shattering and definitely not as antagonistic as Dave Noonan's "cloud watching" blog or the "If you use the profession skill in your games, they probably aren't that fun" comment from Races and Classes. Just let it go.
Unless everyone who started playing before me were to mysteriously die... Hmmm...
remind me to reinforce the stonewall i just cast across my front door... (yes, mr. chick, i DID learn to cast spells from playing d&d!)
Yeah, but with the advent of 4e, those spells are gone. You can't even cast detect evil anymore to warn of Sebastian's approach :(
Unless everyone who started playing before me were to mysteriously die... Hmmm...remind me to reinforce the stonewall i just cast across my front door... (yes, mr. chick, i DID learn to cast spells from playing d&d!)Yeah, but with the advent of 4e, those spells are gone. You can't even cast detect evil anymore to warn of Sebastian's approach :(
Thats what Alarm is for.
If you are insulted or irritated by a perceived slight against 3E holdouts in that joke, you really need to grow a thicker skin. What is it with our culture producing a bunch of pansies that feel like they have a right to never have their oh-so-precious sensibilities offended. It was a semi-funny inside joke that only we gamers could appreciate. Whether you want to believe it or not, WotC is staffed by a bunch of D&D players who love the game and are just doing what they think is best for said game. No one says you have to agree; but if you think there's some subconcious or conspiratorial effort to alienate you, then it's time to take off the tinfoil hat and come on back to reality.
Best thing you can do when calling people so many names in such an overstatement is to name them outright, so you don't accidentally create collateral enemies. Whenever I'm vague in my general insults Sebastian always seems to think I'm talking about him, which is odd because I'm honestly never considering him when I post my displeasures. Not a once.
Crazy, effeminate, conspiracy theorists? Who are you talking about exactly? Am I in this group based on the thoughts I expressed in this thread?
I'll wait.
We all knew what grognard means by book definition and current slang definition, but if you were over at the other sites, you'd get that it was becoming the new word for people not moving on with the new edition as well. You'll forgive some of us for being subtly irked if a company we were allegiant to and gave a ton of money to suddenly considered it allowable policy for their employees to publically poke fun, even in the slightest way, at former customers. It's a slightly provocative, unprofessional move when there is a heated climate as it is. I didn't see people really climbing the walls over this. Some think it was unwise, I thought it was a tad childish. But no matter. Things either bother you or they don't. Big things, little things. I'm sure there's things that peturb you that I wouldn't even bother to hold in my mind for a second, but I would start generalizing about your loser status in life over it, because that's not the way I see the world. You'd just be a guy with a different set of buttons and concerns is all.
Crazy, effeminate, conspiracy theorists? Who are you talking about exactly? ...I'll wait.
It's me.
No, really -- I'm mentally unbalanced, sorely lacking in appropriate masculine qualities, and I believe in the Rotfang Conspiracy (as should everyone).
Crazy, effeminate, conspiracy theorists? Who are you talking about exactly? ...I'll wait.It's me.
No, really -- I'm mentally unbalanced, sorely lacking in appropriate masculine qualities, and I believe in the Rotfang Conspiracy (as should everyone).
You're suddenly very sexy to me, Tatterdemalion. I don't know why. Let us devise conspiracy theories together!
If it helps, I never thought you were crazy.Crazy, effeminate, conspiracy theorists? Who are you talking about exactly? Am I in this group based on the thoughts I expressed in this thread?
Why thank you, Jack...
::slinks over to a satin canopied bed::
I always get by with a little help from strangers.... strangers who know that the government is watching us right now. MK DELTA phase two is beginning!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Best thing you can do when calling people so many names in such a board overstatement is to name them outright, so you don't accidentally create collateral enemies. Whenever I'm vague in my general insults Sebastian always seems to think I'm talking about him, which is odd because I'm honestly never considering him when I post my displeasures. Not a once.
Whatever.
Given that the world revolves around me, every post on every message board ever is about me.
Don't forget who is in charge of MK DELTA phase two...
Trojan horses...ha! Wait till they see the awesome power of TROJAN PONIES!!!
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If it helps, I never thought you were crazy.
Why thank you, Jack...::slinks over to a satin canopied bed::
I always get by with a little help from strangers.... strangers who know that the government is watching us right now. MK DELTA phase two is beginning!
Remember to take off the tinfoil hat when you come back to reality!
Whatever.
Given that the world revolves around me, every post on every message board ever is about me.
Don't forget who is in charge of MK DELTA phase two...
Yes, overlord.
::The Jade kow-tows on a bare concrete floor until his faithful blood spells 'Sebastian'::
When do we stuff narcotics-filled weasels up the backsides of the captive patients, overlord? Or was that our Trojan Mule project?
Remember to take off the tinfoil hat when you come back to reality!
I love this @#$%ing reality.
And this reality loves @#$%ing me.
Y'know. I can take the teasing. I played Panzer Blitz. I played Panzer Leader. I played Squad Leader before it was Advanced Squad Leader (still play a little of that too). I played Basic D&D, 1e D&D, and the rest of the AD&D pedigree up to 3.5 (and have dabbled with 4e, but it's not the game I want to play). I don't mind the term grognard, even used perjoratively, because I know what value I bring to the gaming table.
But given the level of infighting going on, I can't see even a good-natured tease as being good business sense right now. WotC has made plenty of missteps lately regarding earlier versions of D&D in their marketing and the sensitivity of fans. They're like the party that refuses to go dungeoneering with a trap-finder. They keep walking into them. That diminishes my respect for them as a business.