I don't know, everytime I cross Westpark, I see traffic waiting to turn onto Hillcroft that's just as bad as when I exit 59. If Richmond is smooth sailing, you might want to consider it.
@ Andostre: If you decide you prefer freeways to surface streets and want to keep taking 59, I'd get off at Westpark instead of Hillcroft for sure.
I've considered that, but see my above post!
Anyway, I'll try Richmond and see how it goes. If it takes me longer to get there, I'll re-think it.
Kirth, about the question I asked about Short Haft/Grip. After thinking about it I believe keeping it at BAB +6 prerequisite is probably a good idea. While it is annoying for the Cleric it would be a little too good for anyone else if you changed the prerequisite. So I will just have to suck it up and wait until I hit 8th level of sooner if I can get a BAB boost.
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I live down near Westheimer and Montrose, but I'll still give Richmond a shot next week.Man... you can walk to Katz's Deli from there... I'd weigh 700 pounds.
Or maybe we could rent out the upstairs room at the Black Labrador for games...
You know, I manage KAHN'S deli...
KAtz's *hiss, spit, ptoouie*
Jess, Andostre:
Derek, Silverhair and I are available to meet at 4:30 if you all have flexible work schedules. If not, hopefully we can meet at 6:30 as usual. Let me know!
I'm off all that day, so 4:30 should work for me.
For anyone who hasn't heard:
Gamers in Houston...nifty =)
Hiya =)
Thanks for the linky Derek...
So...to save someone some time to type the question out...
I live down near Clear Lake =)
You do OwlCon? I already told my boss I'd be unavailable that weekend so I could run PFS and stuff :)
Maybe, when is it this year (or has the time already passed...been a fun year for me...almost forgot my own birthday lol)?
It's in February, so you missed '09 by a mile! :)You do OwlCon? I already told my boss I'd be unavailable that weekend so I could run PFS and stuff :)Maybe, when is it this year (or has the time already passed...been a fun year for me...almost forgot my own birthday lol)?
Yeah, thought so, I was working in Rice Village at the time, but it seems like a year has passed since then...
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Yeah, thought so, I was working in Rice Village at the time, but it seems like a year has passed since then...It's in February, so you missed '09 by a mile! :)You do OwlCon? I already told my boss I'd be unavailable that weekend so I could run PFS and stuff :)Maybe, when is it this year (or has the time already passed...been a fun year for me...almost forgot my own birthday lol)?
I manage Kahn's Deli in Rice Village now. Where did you work?
I manage Kahn's Deli in Rice Village now. Where did you work?Yeah, thought so, I was working in Rice Village at the time, but it seems like a year has passed since then...It's in February, so you missed '09 by a mile! :)You do OwlCon? I already told my boss I'd be unavailable that weekend so I could run PFS and stuff :)Maybe, when is it this year (or has the time already passed...been a fun year for me...almost forgot my own birthday lol)?
Games Workshop...I used to go over to Khans to grab a bite when I could, damn good sammiches =)
I live down near Clear Lake
My game's all the way over in Westchase. Dunno if Silverhair's might be close enough for you, or if he's got any openings.
I live down near Clear LakeMy game's all the way over in Westchase. Dunno if Silverhair's might be close enough for you, or if he's got any openings.
Heh, one of my friends lives out there, its not that far of a drive =p
All the way over would be like, Katy or Conroe =P
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I live down near Clear LakeMy game's all the way over in Westchase. Dunno if Silverhair's might be close enough for you, or if he's got any openings.Heh, one of my friends lives out there, its not that far of a drive =p
All the way over would be like, Katy or Conroe =P
To break into the thread...
Silverhair can contradict me but we do need people for the Pathfinder Society Games we play on the last Sunday of the month (or try to play if we can get enough people) and I can certainly take another player in the games I run there (usually the 1st of the month - we just started so everyone is still 1st level).
We currently play at Asgard Games, on Kirby immediately south of 59.
I don't play in Kirth Gersen's game since I have family obligations and am only let out once a week... Derek can vouch for me... and we are still waiting so him back on Sunday at some point as well.
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I live down near Clear LakeMy game's all the way over in Westchase. Dunno if Silverhair's might be close enough for you, or if he's got any openings.Heh, one of my friends lives out there, its not that far of a drive =p
All the way over would be like, Katy or Conroe =P
To break into the thread...
Silverhair can contradict me but we do need people for the Pathfinder Society Games we play on the last Sunday of the month (or try to play if we can get enough people) and I can certainly take another player in the games I run there (usually the 1st of the month - we just started so everyone is still 1st level).
We currently play at Asgard Games, on Kirby immediately south of 59.
I don't play in Kirth Gersen's game since I have family obligations and am only let out once a week... Derek can vouch for me... and we are still waiting so him back on Sunday at some point as well.
I can probably make the "special guest appearance" here and there, but I think the new job might preclude me from playing Sundays regularly.
Sucks, too. I miss playing with Godu and ObRay. (I play with airHayilverSay and essJay on Mondays.)
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I can probably make the "special guest appearance" here and there, but I think the new job might preclude me from playing Sundays regularly.Sucks, too. I miss playing with Godu and ObRay. (I play with airHayilverSay and essJay on Mondays.)
I eagerly await the guest appearance of the damage monsters you create. I seriously lost count of how many dice you were rolling at one point...
I live down near Clear LakeMy game's all the way over in Westchase. Dunno if Silverhair's might be close enough for you, or if he's got any openings.Heh, one of my friends lives out there, its not that far of a drive =p
All the way over would be like, Katy or Conroe =P
To break into the thread...
Silverhair can contradict me but we do need people for the Pathfinder Society Games we play on the last Sunday of the month (or try to play if we can get enough people) and I can certainly take another player in the games I run there (usually the 1st of the month - we just started so everyone is still 1st level).
We currently play at Asgard Games, on Kirby immediately south of 59.
I don't play in Kirth Gersen's game since I have family obligations and am only let out once a week... Derek can vouch for me... and we are still waiting so him back on Sunday at some point as well.
My wife works a rotating schedule, so the days I get out of the house are pretty variable. One of the reasons I'm trying to start a game at my place in a couple weeks, being at home doesn't require any fancy scheduling for us and the baby. Of course, that game might only be three, not sure if one of the guys is going to be able to play.
But if you guys play at Asgard on something resembling a schedule, let me know, I can try to drop in if its once a month or so.
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I eagerly await the guest appearance of the damage monsters you create. I seriously lost count of how many dice you were rolling at one point...
I can probably make the "special guest appearance" here and there, but I think the new job might preclude me from playing Sundays regularly.Sucks, too. I miss playing with Godu and ObRay. (I play with airHayilverSay and essJay on Mondays.)
See, I'm living proof you can optimize AND role play!
(As long as the role playing consists of b%%#!ing about people stealing your kills!)
;)
(I play with airHayilverSay and essJay on Mondays.)
Ah, you remind of the days in which one couldn't get through the average sci-fi novel without being fluent in Pig Latin. The things we miss...
I don't even hear kids speaking it any more. Sad times we live in...(I play with airHayilverSay and essJay on Mondays.)Ah, you remind of the days in which one couldn't get through the average sci-fi novel without being fluent in Pig Latin. The things we miss...
Heh, I can understand it, usually, but I never did learn to speak it. Never had much a knack for anything besides english and bad english, although I did fairly well at swedish.
Then again, I'm not a kid to anyone but my mom these days, and mom calls people who just retired kids (which is funny to see...)
Hello,
My friends and I play at San Jacinto CC, central campus, about once a month. We started a couple of months ago and are now 2nd level. Good to see other Houstonians on the board.
Derek, Jess, Silverhair, Andostre--
Here's a contentious question, that I've been thinking on and off since 1st edition. How do you all feel about giving rogues limited spellcasting (ranger progression), with the list limited to things that would enhance thieving and such (e.g., disguise self, invisibility, clairaudience, etc.)?
I'm sort of torn, but with the fighter able to select sneak attack in lieu of bonus feats, it seems as if the rogue could sure use a slight boost as well. If people are in favor, I'll add this to the rogue forthwith. If not, I'll abandon the idea, and maybe make the fighter's sneak attack a talent instead of a feat chain (a break from Unearthed Arcana, but, oh, well).
Given how contentious the "minor magic" talent was in the Beta, I didn't want to even think about instituting this without a consensus. Personally, as a big Gray Mouser fan I have no problem with rogues learning some magic "tricks," but I know some people are very much against it, and it would sort of step on the Arcane Trickster's toes a bit.
Of course, if you DO do that, I'll be mad I took a fighter level :)
Wouldn't make much difference, since you wouldn't get any spells until 4th level anyway...
Part of the thought is to build in some gestalt-like stuff, as an excuse to have slow advancement and still have multi-faceted characters with wide capabilities. Again, a classless system is far better for that, but we work with what we've got.
Derek, Jess, Silverhair, Andostre--
Here's a contentious question, that I've been thinking on and off since 1st edition. How do you all feel about giving rogues limited spellcasting (ranger progression), with the list limited to things that would enhance thieving and such (e.g., disguise self, invisibility, clairaudience, etc.)?
I'm sort of torn, but with the fighter able to select sneak attack in lieu of bonus feats, it seems as if the rogue could sure use a slight boost as well. If people are in favor, I'll add this to the rogue forthwith. If not, I'll abandon the idea, and maybe make the fighter's sneak attack a talent instead of a feat chain (a break from Unearthed Arcana, but, oh, well).
Given how contentious the "minor magic" talent was in the Beta, I didn't want to even think about instituting this without a consensus. Personally, as a big Gray Mouser fan I have no problem with rogues learning some magic "tricks," but I know some people are very much against it, and it would sort of step on the Arcane Trickster's toes a bit.
I know it wasn't directed at me, but if you do write up something liek that, I'd like to see it. Many of my favorite rogueish type characters from novels seem to have picked up a couple nifty tricks here and there (although, most of them are assassins, of the melee badass school of assassinhood, not the "I'm a rogue after my first stab at you" school of assassinhood.)
Not really against it, but I'm just not sure why it's necessary. What would Rogues give up to be able to cast spells?
Not really against it, but I'm just not sure why it's necessary. What would Rogues give up to be able to cast spells?
I see where you're coming from, so bear with me a second, and I'll try and make the reasoning clear -- and please don't hesitate to point out flaws in my logic, because sometimes I get an idea and then "blank out" on the most obvious problems with it!
Basically, I'm trying to re-adjust the rogue's role, from uber-damage-dealer in 3.5, to skilled con man and burglar instead. When you get down to it, a working thief of median level or above needs detect magic, dispel magic, and knock just to do his job. Without them, given the magical protections available, all the skill checks in the world are often a waste of time.
With fighters gaining sneak attack (the rogue's only reason for existence in 3.5), the class needs something to set it apart again -- if fighters keep that ability, then the rogue has already given up his entire 3.5 role of big damage-dealer. If he wants to do rogue stuff outside of basic skill checks, he really needs the ability to do it, though, which in 3.5 he doesn't really have. A spells list is an easy fix, if properly restricted to stealth- and thieving-oriented spells of 4th level and below, with very limited daily usages (see ranger)... because I don't want them chucking fireballs or spamming mirror images in combat. With a ranger progression, the spells wouldn't come into play until mid to high levels anyway, at which time the full casters can do everything a rogue can do except better.
Dunno -- if it still seems like too much, then the other option is to make sneak attack +1d6 a talent, rather than a feat, for fighters. That way they can still get it if they really want it, but they don't step on the rogue's one main schtick. Rogues then remain combat-oriented "strikers" rather than thieves, and people who want to, you know, be able to actually steal stuff, can multiclass into Arcane Trickster to do it. That still works, so I'm open to it. The crusty old grognard in me just rebels at the rogues = fighters model of 3rd edition.
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Warning! Brainstorming ahead!
There will be plenty of holes in this, I'm just ruminating on screen.
There are certain areas where magic or spell like abilities make sense for rogues:
Abjuration - hide from scrying from the watch or a victim, protect your ill gotten gains
Divination - finding the trap, the treasure, the secret
Enchantments - Befuddle a guard, con a merchant, ferret information out of the most reticent source
Illusion - Tricking the eye, fooling the ear, this would probably be limited to momentary distractions, cons, disguises and the like.
Transmutation - disguise or aid in fleeing the scene or the guard
Spells that make sense to me on some level:
Cantrips
Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Daze, Light, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message, Open/Close, Arcane Mark
1st
Alarm, Hold Portal, Grease, Obscuring Mist, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Identify, True Strike (sniper/assassin), Charm Person, Hypnotism, Sleep, Disguise Self, Magic Aura, Silent Image, Ventriloquism, Animate Rope, Erase, Expeditous Retreat, Feather Fall, Jump, Pass without Trace,
2nd
Arcane Lock, Obscure Object, Fog Cloud, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object, See Invisibility, Daze Monster, Darkness, Blur, Hypnotic Pattern, Invisibility, Minor IMage, Mirror Image, Misdirection, Alter Self, Cat's Grace, Darkvision, Knock, Levitate, Pyrotechnics, Rope Trick, Spider Climb, Whispering Wind, Snare, Find Traps, Silence, Undetectable Alignment
3rd
Dispel Magic, Nondetection, Sepia Snake Sigil, Arcane Sight, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Tongues, Deep Slumber, Hold Person, Suggestion, displacement, Illusory Script, Invisibility Sphere, Major Image, Blink, fly, Gaseous Form, Secret page, Shrink Item, Water breathing, Glibness
4th
Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Arcane Eye, Detect Scrying, Locate Creature, Scrying, Charm Monster, Confusion, Hallucintory Terrain, Illusory Wall, Greater Invisibility, Rainbow Pattern, Freedom of Movement
5th
Mage's Private Sanctum, Secret Chest, Prying Eyes, Telepathic Link, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Symbol of Sleep, False Vision, Mirage Arcana, Persistent Image, Seeming, Telekinesis
6th
Greater Dispel Magic, Guards and Wards, True seeing, Mass Suggestion, Symbol of Persuasion, Mislead, Permanent Image, Programmed Image, Shadow Walk, Veil, Mass Cat's Grace
7th
Phase Door, Teleport Object, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying, Mass Hold Person, Mass Invisibility, Project Image, Statue
8th
Dimensional Lock, Mind Blank, Discern Location, Greater Prying Eyes, Antipathy, Mass Charm Monster, Demand, Sympathy, Scintilating Pattern, Screen
9th
Refuge, Foresight, dominate MOnster, Mass Hold Monster, Etherealness
I know there won't be 9th level spells available - they'd have to hire a mage for that - but I included them mostly for completeness' sake - if a roguish character went through every spell list, what would be useful to them?
If we're going to add spellcasting to the rogue, I would rather make it extremely limited - I prefer spontaneous casting because I like it thematically better for a rogue - they know a few tricks. I would prefer they get soemthing like one spell every other level, or two spells every other level known, and they get few spells per day, like a bard.
Potential problems: The rogue is going to have a gimped caster level. Dispel magic is going to be problematic. With the lower levels of casting available, DCs are going to be problem too - exacerbated by rogues probably not having their highest stat their casting stat (cha or int, probably). Self buff will be greatly perferred - or some fix would need to be introduced to up the save DC of those spells.
Jess - Your spells list looks almost exactly like mine, except I put the cantrips into the 1st level spells list (like the ranger), and included fewer peripheral effects than you did (water breathing, etc.).
With regards to your (excellent) specific points:
Also, if the majority feeling is to just plain nix this idea, and cut back on the fighter as well (making sneak attack cost a talent instead of a feat), I'm OK with that. All houserules are tentative; mostly this gives us a chance to swap ideas, and to see which things work and which things maybe sound good, but don't work. Maybe everyone could indicate their preferences:
1. Rogue spells? Y/N
2. If so, spontaneous or prepared?
3. Other comments/additions/ideas?
Silverhair, your opinion is valuable!!! If you just tell me "you're the DM," it sort of makes me feel like whatever we decide is unpleasant to you, and you're just going along with it out of obligation -- which is not the sort of campaign I want to be running. A good officer listens to his NCOs.
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Yeah, I erred on the side of including too many than not including enough. It's easier for me to pare down a list than to think "Oh, wait, there was this cool spell that might work" once I get to nitty gritty of mechanical writeups and look at balance issues.
One mechanic that might work...is Spirit Shaman casting.
They're spontaneous casters...that choose their spell list every day. This might even give Int as a Spontaneous stat some worth. Iirc, Spirit shamans used Cha for bonus spells, and Wisdom for DC.
I could see a neat combination of Intelligent planning and off the cuff reaction in that.
"We're hitting the merchant's house. Easiest entry is from the second story, but his house in the middle of the compound, and even at night his guards are pretty alert. We'll need to get in the vault without waking the family and servants as well."
"Okay, we'll need a guard distraction, and we'll need to get in the window and the vault. I've got some ideas for that - an illusion to distract the guards-"
"You going to use the illusion of the prostitute again? That gets 'em every time. Except that one time the captain was a women! That was a close shave!"
"Yeah, and something to open the vault. Maybe something to get up to the roof, since there's no nearby buildings to jump from."
"Don't forget to check for protections! You'll want to see if the joint's been bespelled to detect our sort!"
"Oh, right, I have a better one for that now I learned from Old Lefty before he retired..."
They're spontaneous casters...that choose their spell list every day.
Like all of the Arcana Evolved casters. Yeah, I like that! In fact, I was almost inclined to merge the wizard and the Magister at one point... but though it was better to leave the full casters alone for the time being and drag everyone else up to higher-level viability. I might be able to find one of Monte's half-caster classes and port in that progression, then, rather than redesigning it from the ground up.
So, I take it you're in favor of rogue spells, then, or are you just playing devil's advocate?
Yeah, I erred on the side of including too many than not including enough.
You mean like me with houserules? :)
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They're spontaneous casters...that choose their spell list every day.Like all of the Arcana Evolved casters. Yeah, I like that! In fact, I was almost inclined to merge the wizard and the Magister at one point... but though it was better to leave the full casters alone for the time being and drag everyone else up to higher-level viability. I might be able to find one of Monte's half-caster classes and port in that progression, then, rather than redesigning it from the ground up.
So, I take it you're in favor of rogue spells, then, or are you just playing devil's advocate?
I like it as a viable option to creating a sneak attack monkey as a rogue. I would prefer that improving casting slows sneak attack progression...much like the skald is less a caster than a minstrel, a sneak attacking rogue would be less a caster than a skills/casting focused rogue. I understand why you'd keep cantrips as 1st level spells for consistency's sake, but it seems so unfair for such small spells.
I would prefer that improving casting slows sneak attack progression...
This would make me more ok with it, too. My thinking is that while the worry that the Figher gaining an option for Sneak Attack takes some of the flavor away from the Rogue, the Rogue gaining spell casting takes some of the flavor away from the Bard. I understand that their spell progression would be pretty different, but I'm thinking more from a flavor perspective than a mechanics perspective. Arguably decent combat, skills, and spell-casting is one of the things that defines a bard to me.
I also think that making a Rogue's casting stat INT instead of CHA also makes more sense flavor-wise. They're crafty more than they are brimming with arcane power from within.
I also see Rogues having to prepare spells since it's a "trick" they've picked up over the years rather than spontaneous casting. They have to understand how it works like a Wizard does.
Ultimately, it's not something I'll get worked up about. I think you should make the change, but those are my thoughts on it.
Great thoughts, all! Thanks for the feedback.
Making this an Unearthed Arcana-style rogue variant, with reduced sneak attack progression, works just fine for me -- I love variants! I'll set things so that spells of a new level fall on the "+1d6" levels (maybe 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th), and then nix the sneak attack progression for those levels... so that at 17th level they have sneak attack +5d6 instead of +9d6, for example.
@Derek: It's still early enough that you can pick which variant later without interfering with anything we've done so far.
@Jess: I agree about the cantrips. I'll separate them back out to 0 level.
@Andostre: Int caster stat it shall be. Thanks!
The spellcasting variant we can maybe call the "thief" (in honor of 1e), and the 3.5e sneak-attack-monkey a "commando" or something. Ideas?
P.S. I'd also like to port in the Pathfinder assassin class features as rogue talents, so you can build a sneaky assassin without multiclassing. (Using fighter with sneak attack makes a perfect Barsoomian Assassin, for the Edgar Rice Burroughs fans, or a member of the Slayers' Brotherhood, for any Fritz Leiber fans.)
HOLD THE FORT! This just in!
I ran comparisons for a rogue/wizard/arcane trickster, a rogue/wizard/unseen seer, and a new "thief" rogue like we'd been discussing. A comparison from 1st-16th character levels of BAB, sneak attack dice, caster level, level of spells available made for interesting discoveries. At 16th character level:
Overall, I'm going to recommend that anyone interested in a spellcasting thief just multiclass, because the variant just doesn't hold its own. Yeah, it gets a few more rogue talents than the others, but ArcTrk and UnSee provide nifty class features of their own.
HOLD THE FORT! This just in!
Holy crap!
Holy crap!
???
I won't have the time necessary to review this until this weekend. The reason is that Tuesday I joined the ranks of the working class at the VA Hospital. I am learning how to fold clothes, but it beats twiddling my thumbs all day.
Holy crap!???
I was just carried away by all the excitement.
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I just don't care for PrCs. Maybe make access to spell progression available after taking the two arcane talents and a new feat? Like "street caster" or some such? (Rogue being kind of an urban archetype and all). Keeps in the "sloughing" PrCs thing the fighter talents accomplish.
Just thinking aloud here.
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I just don't care for PrCs. Maybe make access to spell progression available after taking the two arcane talents and a new feat? Like "street caster" or some such? (Rogue being kind of an urban archetype and all). Keeps in the "sloughing" PrCs thing the fighter talents accomplish.
Just thinking aloud here.
Yeah, we'd just need to keep the prc advancement in mind when coming up with the alternate versions, to keep everything in line.
I really like the unseen seer variant (magical spy), and arcane trickster is fun too.
I just don't care for PrCs.
How come?
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1) They generally aren't prestigious.
2) people just use them for level dips half the time.
3) there are 14 zillion of them, many of which weren't well thought out or playtested, far as I can tell
and 4) a lot of their abilities should just be feats or class options for existing base classes.
oh, and 5) I don't feel like owning a zillion splat books to keep up with the jonses...