I mostly agree Derek's points. However, I really do like them for one thing: as a multiclass "patch," to make a viable fighter/mage (EldKt) or a rogue/mage (ArcTrk or Unseen Seer), or a 1st edition-style bard (Fochlucan Lyrist). In those cases, though, they should really be called "gestalt classes" or something. In fact, I may start calling them "secondary classes," except for the Prestige Paladin, which actually IS prestigious.
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I mostly agree Derek's points. However, I really do like them for one thing: as a multiclass "patch," to make a viable fighter/mage (EldKt) or a rogue/mage (ArcTrk or Unseen Seer), or a 1st edition-style bard (Fochlucan Lyrist). In those cases, though, they should really be called "gestalt classes" or something. In fact, I may start calling them "secondary classes," except for the Prestige Paladin, which actually IS prestigious.
Ah! I tried to bring it up last game, but some chatty person or another made hard to get a word in edgewise! Hehe.
The eldritch knight gets 9 levels of spellcasting, and 3 bonus fighter feats. Should that be modified for the fighter/mage hybrid feel given new fighter rules? Should the middle feat level be a talent level instead? Should it be talent ... feat ... talent, and then a level of spellcasting advancement removed?
Just a thought.
Those points are all fair enough. I was just looking for a different perspective. In fact, I have two examples of a couple of those points from the PbP game that I've been playing with some online friends for the past few years:
I really do like them for one thing: as a multiclass "patch,"
The first character that I made for this campaign (and the first 3.5 character I ever made), is a Barbarian/Druid. A dwarf, naturally. I really enjoy roleplaying this character because he's all about balancing his chaotic barbarian training with his duty to his people. Both classes are integral to this character, but man each class' progression is inhibited. The Druid, especially. Granted, this isn't helped by the fact that we've been playing for 3.5 years and we're only level four.
Anyway, I started looking around for a PrC that fit, and I settled on the Bear Warrior, which will at least give him some Wild Shape that fits his personality. Hard to find something to enhance his spell progression and still fits his character, though.
4) a lot of their abilities should just be feats or class options for existing base classes
Another character I made is a human Cleric of Bahamut. He has a half-dragon mother, so I'm doing what I can to give him some cool dragon-like abilities that a priest of Bahamut with some dragon blood in him should have beyond the rather tame Dragon domain ability. I found a feat that lets him burn a Turn Undead attempt to breathe fire, for example. But the feats are expensive, so I started looking at PrCs to give him a more dragon feel. From a book called Dragon Magic (the same one that gives the breath weapon feat), is a PrC called Swift Wing. It's actually a class designed for non-dragon themed clerics and paladins to become more dragon-like, and it allows divine spell progression. Hell, even that class is a better dragon-themed class than standard Cleric of Bahamut.
The eldritch knight gets 9 levels of spellcasting, and 3 bonus fighter feats. Should that be modified for the fighter/mage hybrid feel given new fighter rules? Should the middle feat level be a talent level instead? Should it be talent ... feat ... talent, and then a level of spellcasting advancement removed?
Interesting... lemme think about it.
(Good examples)
Yeah. One of my primary goals here is for everyone to get to play the character they envision. If that means stretching PrCs to fit, I have no problem with that. Hell, if it means writing whole new classes, I'm obviously not too timid for us to do that, too.
I had an idea about simply playing gestalt, per Unearthed Arcana, but hesitated because throwing that into the mix would make it impossible to determine whether the new class revisions were workable, and whether the new combat rules actually help at higher levels. Still, if people lean strongly in that direction and it seems like "patch" classes, feats, and variant class features aren't working well enough, I'm amenable to forgetting the "playtest" aspect of the game in favor of the "play" aspect.
Of course, using classless rules eliminates all of these concerns, but I really don't want to "go there" unless all players are strongly in favor.
Are we back on for this Monday? And, what time should we be there?
YES! Monday is a go. Same bat time, same bat channel! (Here, 18:30 hours, the normal, non-holiday time). Can't wait for some monastery-y goodness!
I have a question about converting Unearthed Arcana's Cloistered Cleric variant to our variant Pathfinder game:
A 3.5 cleric can use any armor type, while our campaign's clerics only use light and medium armor. The UA cloistered cleric can only use light armor. What about our cloistered cleric? Light or no armor?
Everything else seems to translate pretty smoothly.
I have a question about converting Unearthed Arcana's Cloistered Cleric variant to our variant Pathfinder game:
A 3.5 cleric can use any armor type, while our campaign's clerics only use light and medium armor. The UA cloistered cleric can only use light armor. What about our cloistered cleric? Light or no armor?
Everything else seems to translate pretty smoothly.
Good question. Tell ya what... If no armor, then I'll be more casual about tracking the durations of things like shield of faith and magic vestment. Or, we can just allow light armor, but be a bit more conservative with regards to protective spells. Anyone have a strong preference?
Light armor, no nerfs.
That makes sense to me. Divine spells don't need to make armor penalty checks, right? Why wouldn't a cleric wear armor, so long as they were trained to?
While talking to Rim we decided that while he is comfortable with wearing light or medium armor if the ideas of casting Shield of Faith or a Divine version of Mage Armor are accepted he would like their durations to be extended to say an hour per level.
While talking to Rim we decided that while he is comfortable with wearing light or medium armor if the ideas of casting Shield of Faith or a Divine version of Mage Armor are accepted he would like their durations to be extended to say an hour per level.
OK, that's 2 in favor (Derek and Silverhair, or CareBear, or whatever he's calling himself!), and I swing the vote yes because I hate 1 min/lvl durations -- motion carries! Add this to the cleric's list of 1st level spells:
Shield of Faith, Personal
Abjuration
Level: Clr 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Target: Personal
Duration: 1 hour/level
This spell creates a shimmering, magical field around you that averts attacks. The spell grants the subject a +2 deflection bonus to AC, with an additional +1 to the bonus for every six caster levels you have (maximum +5 deflection bonus at CL 18th).
In preparation for the challenges in store on Monday, I want to make sure everyone is in good shape. Rim and Agun will be using handy defensive spells now, that last 2 hours each (which means I'll just assume they're always on, unless you spend 2 hours wandering around or trying to knock down walls ot something). I want to also make sure Catogan and Sheraviel are protected as well; can you check and see if you've made one or more of the following trades:
Sheraviel should have 3 feats on top of that: her 1st level feat, her 1st level fighter talent (traded for a feat), and her 2nd level fighter feat. I know she's got Improved Disarm; did she pick up Improved Trip? And what's the 3rd one?
Catogan should likewise have 2 feats on top of those (his 1st level feat and his human bonus feat), and also a fighter talent or bonus feat.
P.S. I love how this is working so far -- slow level advancement, but abilities accruing in the form of feats and spells nonetheless.
And BTW, the name is Oberon Heartbear. Denise Carebear is my cousin.
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Question: since Jess and I both took combat expertise as a feat, and now we can get it as a bonus for forgoing shield proficiency (if I'm reading the above correctly), can we swap out one or the other for a different combat feat? Perhaps improved feint (me) or mobility (maybe something Jess would want?) or something?
Okay, pretend you don't care about armor or shields. So you trade in your exotic shield, and you trade in light & heavy shields, and you also trade in medium & heavy armor (and you can't regain them by taking a level of paladin or whatever without losing the bonus feats). So now you've got the following:
Now, you've already taken Toughness, IIRC. Take Improved Feint for your other feat (assuming you meet the Int 13+ prerequisite), and that still leaves you a fighter talent, like maybe Agile Dodge or Weapon Training. Fighters should be able to fight, by Crom!
For Sheraviel, she'll have Dodge and Combat Expertise for losing all her shields. I'm not sure if she traded in medium and heavy armor or not. Either way, that leaves her Improved Disarm as her 1st level feat, and Improved Trip (or whatever she took) for her 2nd level fighter bonus feat, and that leaves her with one fighter talent (which can be traded for a bonus feat).
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Okay, pretend you don't care about armor or shields. So you trade in your exotic shield, and you trade in light & heavy shields, and you also trade in medium & heavy armor (and you can't regain them by taking a level of paladin or whatever without losing the bonus feats). So now you've got the following:
Dodge,
Combat Expertise,
Canny Defense,
One feat for being 1st level,
One fear for being human, and
One fighter talent (which can be traded for a bonus feat, but that's a bad deal, generally speaking, because talents are better). Now, you've already taken Toughness, IIRC. Take Improved Feint for your other feat (assuming you meet the Int 13+ prerequisite), and that still leaves you a fighter talent, like maybe Agile Dodge or Weapon Training. Fighters should be able to fight, by Crom!
For Sheraviel, she'll have Dodge and Combat Expertise for losing all her shields. I'm not sure if she traded in medium and heavy armor or not. Either way, that leaves her Improved Disarm as her 1st level feat, and Improved Trip (or whatever she took) for her 2nd level fighter bonus feat, and that leaves her with one fighter talent (which can be traded for a bonus feat).
I don't have to pretend, my character concept was going to shed the leather asap anyway :)
Ok, so the feats I took were Toughness, Weapon Finesse and Combat Expertise. I can just either pick another feat for that or take the first level talent?
Yeah, my Int is 13, so Improved Feint (my most coveted feat ATM) is a done deal, but I still don't see where I get another feat or talent, as I.F. would be my selection for my fighter level dip.
As in: 1 feat at first for being human, one for being first. One for taking fighter at second. And the three "bonus" abilities for foreswearing medium+ armor and all shields.
Also, I wouldn't be able to take I.F. without taking the bonus feat over the talent, as I couldn't have it as a first level rogue without combat expertise, which I don't get until I dipped into fighter...
Derek:
Thanks -- this is rather more difficult without actually looking at the character! I'd totally forgotten your Weapon Finesse, which accounts for the "extra" feat -- and, yeah, IF would have to be 2nd. So, let me recap to make sure we're covering everything. You've got the following, in order:
1st -- Weapon Finesse (1st level character feat);
1st -- Toughness (Bonus feat for being a human);
2nd -- Dodge (for ditching your exotic shield);
2nd -- Combat Expertise (for ditching all your other shields);
2nd -- Canny Defense (for ditching medium and heavy armor); and
2nd -- Improved Feint (bonus feat in place of 1st level talent).
And that fills everything nicely.
We're done!
Kirth, have you ever read anything by David Eddings? If you have would you care to check TriOmegaZero's thread "Magical 'noise'". I was just wondering what you would think of the idea.
Kirth, have you ever read anything by David Eddings? If you have would you care to check TriOmegaZero's thread "Magical 'noise'". I was just wondering what you would think of the idea.
Tried to read the first book of the Belgariad. Unfortunately, I fell asleep after page 10 and never got any further. ADD? Probably.
I'll look for that thread, though. TOZ seems like a cool guy.
Granted he does sometimes begin slowly. Basically one of his ideas was that magic creates a certain 'sound' in the universe that can be 'heard' by other magic users. TOZ was trying to come up with a way to incorporate that is his game. Just thought you might have some ideas.
OK, found the thread, and I really like the idea. There's an Aviona precedent there as well, when the last Chancellor cast blasphemy ("unholy word") against his attackers, which blackened the sky and instantly alerted every good cleric within seven miles.
Perhaps we can talk about using that or something similar in the Monday game? I like the basic idea, just don't have a complete picture of how to implement it.
I agree. I've popped into that thread with an initial suggestion, and will be watching it with interest. Thanks!
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I'll look for that thread, though. TOZ seems like a cool guy.
Aww shucks. XD Pick up The Diamond Throne, first book of the Elenium. Garion gets cooler as he gets older, but you skip right to awesome with Sparhawk. I appreciate the help in the other thread. Nice to know I had something going with the idea.
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Kirth, have you ever read anything by David Eddings? If you have would you care to check TriOmegaZero's thread "Magical 'noise'". I was just wondering what you would think of the idea.Tried to read the first book of the Belgariad. Unfortunately, I fell asleep after page 10 and never got any further. ADD? Probably.
I'll look for that thread, though. TOZ seems like a cool guy.
If you want a faster start, read the Elenium. three books instead of 5 per series (the Tamuli is the second series in this world), and the main character steps into the action right away, so you don't spend as long establishing that yes, Garion is an ignorant nobody farmboy with a mysterious aunt. :)
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Derek:
Thanks -- this is rather more difficult without actually looking at the character! I'd totally forgotten your Weapon Finesse, which accounts for the "extra" feat -- and, yeah, IF would have to be 2nd. So, let me recap to make sure we're covering everything. You've got the following, in order:
1st -- Weapon Finesse (1st level character feat);
1st -- Toughness (Bonus feat for being a human);
2nd -- Dodge (for ditching your exotic shield);
2nd -- Combat Expertise (for ditching all your other shields);
2nd -- Canny Defense (for ditching medium and heavy armor); and
2nd -- Improved Feint (bonus feat in place of 1st level talent).And that fills everything nicely.
We're done!
Sheraviel:
1st -- Dodge (exchanged for exotic shields)
1st -- Combat Expertise (for other shields)
1st -- Canny Defense (for heavy and medium armor)
1st -- Agile Dodge (talent, not feat, for fighters)
1st -- Improved Disarm (1st level feat)
2nd -- Weapon Finesse (fighter feat)
Wow. We look scarily similar at second level. I think we will rapidly diverge in build from there, however.
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Derek:
Thanks -- this is rather more difficult without actually looking at the character! I'd totally forgotten your Weapon Finesse, which accounts for the "extra" feat -- and, yeah, IF would have to be 2nd. So, let me recap to make sure we're covering everything. You've got the following, in order:
1st -- Weapon Finesse (1st level character feat);
1st -- Toughness (Bonus feat for being a human);
2nd -- Dodge (for ditching your exotic shield);
2nd -- Combat Expertise (for ditching all your other shields);
2nd -- Canny Defense (for ditching medium and heavy armor); and
2nd -- Improved Feint (bonus feat in place of 1st level talent).And that fills everything nicely.
We're done!Sheraviel:
1st -- Dodge (exchanged for exotic shields)
1st -- Combat Expertise (for other shields)
1st -- Canny Defense (for heavy and medium armor)
1st -- Agile Dodge (talent, not feat, for fighters)
1st -- Improved Disarm (1st level feat)
2nd -- Weapon Finesse (fighter feat)Wow. We look scarily similar at second level. I think we will rapidly diverge in build from there, however.
I kind of makes RP sense, though. You're an elf, trained in elven fighting techniques. I'm a human raised in an elvish city, so the style I picked up would be heavily influenced by elves. The setting itself suggests more finesse styles, and we both are building in the finesse/swashbuckler style.
But, yeah, seeing as I'll work to improve my feinting and charisma based skills from here out, and you'll probably continue the more defensive based fighter build (and you'll have more feats to work with, ultimately), we probably will look quite a bit different by 5th...
Thanks for the heads-up, Jess. I thought the Agile Dodge would appeal to you!
As another note, I'm working on a generic 10-level fighter/mage prestige class that can be used for Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer, Abjurant Champion, Swiftblade, Hexblade, Bladesinger, Spellsword, or any combination thereof. I'll email it as soon as it's done -- I'm counting on your help proofreading and ironing it out!
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Wow. We look scarily similar at second level. I think we will rapidly diverge in build from there, however.
I kind of makes RP sense, though. You're an elf, trained in elven fighting techniques. I'm a human raised in an elvish city, so the style I picked up would be heavily influenced by elves. The setting itself suggests more finesse styles, and we both are building in the finesse/swashbuckler style.
But, yeah, seeing as I'll work to improve my feinting and charisma based skills from here out, and you'll probably continue the more defensive based fighter build (and you'll have more feats to work with, ultimately), we probably will look quite a bit different by 5th...
Oh, yeah, I'll be taking wizard levels soon. :) it'll diverge a bit here. :)
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Oh, yeah, I'll be taking wizard levels soon. :) it'll diverge a bit here. :)Wow. We look scarily similar at second level. I think we will rapidly diverge in build from there, however.
I kind of makes RP sense, though. You're an elf, trained in elven fighting techniques. I'm a human raised in an elvish city, so the style I picked up would be heavily influenced by elves. The setting itself suggests more finesse styles, and we both are building in the finesse/swashbuckler style.
But, yeah, seeing as I'll work to improve my feinting and charisma based skills from here out, and you'll probably continue the more defensive based fighter build (and you'll have more feats to work with, ultimately), we probably will look quite a bit different by 5th...
Your character's going to be a Smashing Pumpkins album!
:)
I was reading your rouge ideas with interest and I thought of a houserule suggestion to give the rogue a spell casting angle, albeit a costly one. Add 1/2 his rouge level to his UMD rolls.
I was reading your rouge ideas with interest and I thought of a houserule suggestion to give the rogue a spell casting angle, albeit a costly one. Add 1/2 his rouge level to his UMD rolls.
In our houserules, UMD has been rolled into Spellcraft, which has superceded Disable Device when dealing with magical traps... so, ultimately, the rogue has that angle covered.
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i replied to your e-mail last night. going to see the melvins tonight, but i should be back @11:30 or midnight...Derek,
Back from the desert as of late last night.
Shot you an email then.
Talk to you soon!
Okay, this is random and I feel a little weird about replying to a post from a year ago(is post necromancy a thing?), but.. I went to see the Melvins on Friday and they were awesome. Their set ended kind of strangely though. They just kind of wandered off stage, the lights went on and everyone left. I guess I should have expected something weird. :-)
Kirth, have you ever looked through the books PC Pearls, and GM Gems? I can bring them tonight and let you look through them over this coming week if you want. I also found some other stuff that might be useful for information or inspiration. Let me know.
Kirth, have you ever looked through the books PC Pearls, and GM Gems? I can bring them tonight and let you look through them over this coming week if you want. I also found some other stuff that might be useful for information or inspiration. Let me know.
Sure! If it's stuff you're interested in, I can probably find some way to work it in. Good thing you're working now -- I can see where your paychecks are going!
I can see you have a lot on your plate. I just didn't want to add to an already overburdened guy. See you tonight.
I can see you have a lot on your plate. I just didn't want to add to an already overburdened guy. See you tonight.
If I can get through the next hour without blowing a gasket, the next week should be pretty smooth sailing. Thanks!
See you tonight.
And because nobody asked, but I could tell that you all were really curious...
Now that I'm at work, it occurs to me to point out that that YouTube clip isn't safe for work.
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Now that I'm at work, it occurs to me to point out that that YouTube clip isn't safe for work.
Being at work, I have not viewed it, but I am curious - do they bear any resemblance to the robot geisha in Ghost in the Shell: Standalone Complex?
And I am gratified they didn't pluralize it by adding an "s". That would've annoyed me.
Now that I'm at work, it occurs to me to point out that that YouTube clip isn't safe for work.Being at work, I have not viewed it, but I am curious - do they bear any resemblance to the robot geisha in Ghost in the Shell: Standalone Complex?
Um... Maybe?
And I am gratified they didn't pluralize it by adding an "s". That would've annoyed me.
I hope you don't take it too seriously. I'm pretty sure the trailer I linked is a joke.
God, I hope it's a joke....
Kirth, is there a God/Goddess that you know of that would fit Rim better than Shelyn and still allow him to use a Glaive? In the Ultimate Toolbox book there is a God that gives just his name, Thorvath the Sunderer, God of Strength. There is no other information on Him so we could do whatever we wanted with Him
Kirth, is there a God/Goddess that you know of that would fit Rim better than Shelyn and still allow him to use a Glaive?
Here's an option for you: why not desgin your own dwarven goddess? Look at the Golarion ones for things like # of domains, etc., and see what you come up with. I haven't spent a lot (or any) time on dwarven gods, so the field is wide open.
I added to the above post. I'll see what I come up with and will let you know.
I added to the above post. I'll see what I come up with and will let you know.
Sounds good!
God, how hard is it to be chaotic...err....lead sheet... in this world?
Think of Aviona as having a minor planar trait: Chaotic. The sky is even a different color from in the human lands. You're in Pharisee country now, boy! The only thing is that you happened upon the three most unlikely travelling companions: two members of a fundamentally stodgy and tradition-bound race, and a displaced "human-trapped-in-an-elf's-body."
P.S. Avionans dislike overtly evil acts because they don't like it when more powerful people than themselves take them as a dueling challenge and kill them for it. Once you become one of those "more powerful" people, it gets a bit easier...