According to the current rules, each rank spent in linguistics allows a character to select an extra language they know. Is this extra language selected from the "bonus languages" the character has access to from their classes and race section, or from any language of their choosing?
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According to the current rules, each rank spent in linguistics allows a character to select an extra language they know. Is this extra language selected from the "bonus languages" the character has access to from their classes and race section, or from any language of their choosing?
i would say since the charater took the time to learn the language it would be any language the DM agrees with
Any language, provided that it is not secret (like Druidic) and meets with DM approval. The bonus languages are just the ones you get for having a high intelligence bonus.
I personally am leery of the fact that it's one rank=one language.
As is, a rogue (or wizard) maxing out Linguistics will know all the languages (aside from Druidic) in the game, unless Pathfinder intends on coming up with a bunch more.
As per the 3.5 PHB, there are only 19 different languages that can be learned if you're not a Druid.
This also serves to render the Polyglot Epic Feat redundant, since 20 ranks in Linguistics is more than enough to cover everything the feat provides.
I think it should be noted that with the different significant human (and dead) languages in the Pathfinder Campaign setting there are about thirty different languages in that CS.
However, the Pathfinder CS should not (and I believe is not intended to be) necessary to play using the Pathfinder RPG rules.
That, and I haven't been able to get the CS book. :(
I personally am leery of the fact that it's one rank=one language.
As is, a rogue (or wizard) maxing out Linguistics will know all the languages (aside from Druidic) in the game, unless Pathfinder intends on coming up with a bunch more.
As per the 3.5 PHB, there are only 19 different languages that can be learned if you're not a Druid.
This also serves to render the Polyglot Epic Feat redundant, since 20 ranks in Linguistics is more than enough to cover everything the feat provides.
I agree that 1 rank=1 language seems unbalanced. I would say that 3-5 ranks per language seems more reasonable. It's possible for characters with high intelligence and the right race to already have 6-7 languages at 1st level. I'd say that a slower language progression as you go up in levels would be appropriate, especially given the relatively small impact of languages on the game.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I agree that 1 rank=1 language seems unbalanced. I would say that 3-5 ranks per language seems more reasonable. It's possible for characters with high intelligence and the right race to already have 6-7 languages at 1st level. I'd say that a slower language progression as you go up in levels would be appropriate, especially given the relatively small impact of languages on the game.I personally am leery of the fact that it's one rank=one language.
As is, a rogue (or wizard) maxing out Linguistics will know all the languages (aside from Druidic) in the game, unless Pathfinder intends on coming up with a bunch more.
As per the 3.5 PHB, there are only 19 different languages that can be learned if you're not a Druid.
This also serves to render the Polyglot Epic Feat redundant, since 20 ranks in Linguistics is more than enough to cover everything the feat provides.
I'm split on this. Part of me has always said that D&D's treatment of languages would only happen in a very monolingual part of the world. At the same time, language has been ignored because it was a pain. As an applied linguist, I wouldn't mind seeing language opened up as a possibility.
I realize that it takes years for someone to learn a language in real life. I'm struggling with my third language. In the game it shouldn't be quite so hard.
For me personally, the main reason I've never really used the 3.5 Speak Language skill ever, was because I generally had other skills I felt warranted my skill points more than that skill did. Especially with the fact that it's cross-class for everyone save the Bard.
I have though used language as a DM, having the players find notes written in a language they don't know is a great way to mess with them.
With Pathfinder removing/consolidating skills, and the removal of the 2 for 1 and half max ranks penalties, as well as the merging of Decipher Script, Forgery, and Speak Language into one skill, I think we'll start seeing many, many more characters becoming proficient with greater than 10 languages.
It would make more sense if there was a cap to the number of times the skill could be taken, for example one per 5 int points. This would allow a 10 Int character to learn up to two more languages.
It would make more sense if there was a cap to the number of times the skill could be taken, for example one per 5 int points. This would allow a 10 Int character to learn up to two more languages.
I don't know about capping ranks in the skill itself, since that would just create a exception to the general rule for calculating skill ranks. But I do think that capping the number of languages you can learn would be a good idea. Maybe something like:
Maximum number of languages that can be known = Number of languages known at 1st level (discounting skill ranks in Linguistics ) + current Int modifier + character levels/5
So for a gnomish wizard with starting intelligence of 18, the total number of languages he could learn by 20th level would be given by:
Maxmimum number of languages = 7 + Int modifier at 20th level + 4
For a human fighter with starting intelligence of 10, the same calculation gives us:
Maximum number of languages = 1 + Int modifier at 20th level + 4
Of course, in order to learn those extra languages, you would still need to invest ranks in Linguistics.
The system seems to give reasonable figures, and reflects the fact that if you want to learn a very large number of languages, you need to;
a) be very clever, much cleverer than most normal people
b) gain levels (i.e. go adventuring, see the world, interact with people/creatures from different cultures and learn how to speak with them.
I support 1 new language per 3 ranks in the skill. I'd also support changing the automatic language rules to 'native tongue only', as well as some rule that makes Common the get-along trade pidgin that it should be and not the native tongue of 99% of intelligent creatures in the universe. Make languages actually useful...
I'd also support changing the automatic language rules to 'native tongue only', as well as some rule that makes Common the get-along trade pidgin that it should be and not the native tongue of 99% of intelligent creatures in the universe.
So what language would humans get if not Common?
To take the real world as an example, humans from France would get French, humans from Germany would get German, humans from Italy would get Italian... in other words, the automatic language for Humans should be 'Local Dialect,' not 'Common.'
'Common' as a universal language is a convenience that by its very nature makes the inclusion of other 'living languages' in the game virtually pointless. If everybody can speak Common and communicate any concept 100% effectively, then the only practical purpose of other modern languages is to conduct clandestine conversations--and the more languages any given individual knows, the less useful it becomes even for this. Not only does this defeat the purpose of modeling languages in general, it's also hopelessly unrealistic in a world where the average person doesn't travel more than a few miles from their birthplace.
To put it in perspective, the closest thing to 'Common' in the real Medieval/Renaissance world was Latin - a language imposed on a large area by conquest, which over a relatively short period of time evolved into a series of unique languages, until it came to the point that nobody--not even its originators--actually spoke it as a primary means of communication anymore. It continued to be used for a time as a trade language, but it was something that people learned later in life because it was a necessary convenience, not because they grew up hearing it around them on a daily basis. 'Common' should be much the same - something that merchants and adventurers pick up because it enables them to conduct their business. Something like that works in a setting where there was once an imperial power that imposed its speech on its principalities, but which has subsequently declined.
However, as it stands, 'Common' is more like modern English - something that a large proportion of the world is being taught to be bilingual in from an early age. This is not a reasonable assumption for a medieval milieu because the only reason English is so widespread today is due to its preeminent position in the media. No global media infrastructure, no worldwide pressure to adopt the language it operates in, no Common.
I'd prefer if the language system modeled something like you see in The Thirteenth Warrior - at first they communicate in Latin (Common), but over time the outsider learns his companions' native language by listening to it. In game terms, parties make sure that they have at least one other language in common besides Common, and pick up others as necessary. That way the choice actually becomes pertinent, instead of an infrequently-used curiosity.
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It would make more sense if there was a cap to the number of times the skill could be taken, for example one per 5 int points. This would allow a 10 Int character to learn up to two more languages.
In my games language is really important, like some of the other guys who've posted, Common is used in our games as a Trade Language, regional languages are the norm, not the exception. In Eberron which we used to play rather exclusively, Humans were the ones who spoke Common as thier "regional Language" like english, and Undercommon was used as the Trade Tongue between the various races both demi human and monster.
My DM made a particularly good ruling after I abused the crap out of the languages in his game.. you start off with 2 languages at character creation, Common (spoken only, spend a point to be able to write in it) and your Regional tongue.
Plus each class have "class languages", you chose one of two and you're considered fluent in it. And you can spend 2 skill points to be fluent in (written or spoken) the other Class language.
After that it's based off your Intelligence Bonus which is 2 skill points (for both written and spoken), if you only spend 1 point for it, it's considered spoken only and only Conversational, at 2 points, you're fluent.
So it's possible for a character with an int 18 to start off with 8 languages, but thats the max he can ever learn until he raises his Int to 20, or he takes a feat the DM created called "bonus language" haha, I know, real original.
Barbarian - Giant or Orc
Cleric/Paladin/Favoured Soul - Celestial or Abyssal(know thy enemy)
Wizard/Sorcerer/Artificer - Draconic or Elven
Rogue/Bard - Gutterspeak or Undercommon
Fighter/Ranger/Scout - Orc or Goblin
Monks - Any two of the 4 Elemental languages (Aquan, Ignan etc)
Druid - Druidic or Sylvan
I was making a campaign setting that had skill-based magic instead of spell slots (meaning, anyone can attempt casting spells by rolling a skill check, and anyone could put points into the skills, etc).
This meant languages, and especially magical versions of the language, were important.
What I ended up deciding to do is make Speak Language a skill in learning the language, whereas the actual number of languages known was just another stat on your character sheet.. like hitpoints.
The only way Speak Language was tied to the number of languages you knew was that you had to roll a Speak Language check to converse with someone with that language. Roll well enough over a series of checks (complex skill check) and you could learn to become fluent in the language.
Or, if the skill check is so easy (a 1 means success) then you are so good at putting a language together it can be done on the fly, effectively making you fluent.
The thing is, there were degrees of language difficulty along these lines:
Degree of difference DC
Pidgin** 5
Regional Dialect* 10
Parent or Derivative language 15
Root language (unless parent) 20
Shared Parent/Root language 20
Entirely different language 25
Simple message +0
Moderately detailed message +5
Intricate message +10
Heavy accent +5
Magical language +10
Have successfully understood before -5
*Regional Dialects often have only a couple different words or sayings, or is in an accent that makes it harder to understand and would not interfere with anything less than an intricate message (DC 15 for an intricate message in a different regional Dialect, DC 20 for a magical language). Heavy accents increase the difficulty normally.
**Pidgin is a basic form of communication, almost a mime instead of an actual spoken language. You may only convey the most simple of messages in this form (Hungry, Hurting, Follow, etc).
Basically, if a language you are attempting to understand/speak shares a parent language, it's DC to use is 20. If the person speaking it is giving an intricate message and has a heavy accent, you are looking at a DC of 35.
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A small excerpt of the language list would look like this:
Dwarven
Dwarven (Ancient, Arcane, Divine)
Gnome (Ancient, Arcane, Divine)
Goblin (Ancient, Arcane, Divine)
Giant (Ancient, Arcane, Divine)
Orc (Ancient, Arcane, Divine)
Terran (Arcane, Divine)
Dwarven is the Parent language. Other languages are derived from that one. The root language though, in this case, is Terran (italicized). Root languages are usually an outsider language, and don't have an ancient form (since Outsiders usually don't change their point of view much, going by planescape concept here, so changing a language would be considered fairly radical).
Arcane and Divine versions of the language are meant for my campaign setting where they were the variant of the language meant for casting spells (and thus understanding the written form, or knowing what an enemy is casting, etc). Learning a rare "long lost" language to cast spells in meant that others would have that much harder a time to know what you were casting.
I grouped the languages together (under a parent) based on the alphabet used according to the Speak Language entry in the PHB. Hence the Dwarven alphabet used for gnomes, goblin, giant and orc.
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Dunno if any of this would be useful in the normal campaign game (where language is largely ignored). With such spells as Sending, Teleport, and if you campaign setting has anything like a printing press, you'd have at least a tiered social system where the magical (and those who can afford magic) would have developed a "common" language (possibly High Common) whereas only the merchants might use Lower Common to converse between regions, and most poor people would only know their own dialect if their particular language.
Adventurers, by simple virtue of traveling many places, would likely learn at least Lower Common. Some (such as the Bard) would likely learn High Common, while others still might be stuck using base pidgin and their own dialect (Barbarian). Ranks in Linguistics would obviously step outside this default.