Fuelharp's page

In my original question I wasn't descriptive of the fluff because I had the idea of the Miraluka from Star Wars as what I was ultimately looking for. I used the example of a blind swordsman because I figured it related to pathfinder better. In the end I executed my post inefficiently. The Miraluka see through the force and since in Star Wars everything is connected to the force, even lifeless objects, to the Miraluka I assume they would see the universe in a way that is like a sense aura spell that is effected by everything. I also did specifically post that I would limit some overpowering aspects of being blind. Although I don't think I would do more than this I posted that I would make a home rule that this race specifically, and not any other race, is still effected by spells because the spells would effect the other senses that the race relies on. The idea is that the character would still be effected by charm spells, fascination, illusions that create false images, and such. The intent is not to give 360 degree vision to the race, and honestly I don't think that blind sense or blind sight give that because they both specifically state that line of effect is important. In regards to real life echolocation there is a guy who is completely blind and can ride a bike, and identify objects without touching them using echolocation so I do think that its viable to give echolocation to a humanoid race. Sorry I didn't respond sooner I spent the last 4 days camping with the family.

Blind sight and blind sense are in the race builder, but at the same time it doesn't specify that the race must be blind to have them. Obviously I could just use the race builder to build a race that has those, also the race builder includes bonus feats that have no prerequisites so blind fight I believe is possible as a bonus feat. I also want to point out that in the Iron Gods adventure path a character, although unlikely because of the actual dice rolling chance, A character could do one fight in the campaign and make it to a mysterious ooze that when drank has the possibility of mutating you and taking away your vision granting blind sight of 30ft I think. Also the same ooze can grant what is called 3 dimensional vision which is basically blind sight. So Paizo has created a scenario where its possible to get blind sight at level 1. The problem is once players figure out a good result could come from drinking the ooze there is no rule stating they can't just keep drinking it until they get all the good effects. There are effects like can't die from old age, and grow extra arms.

Thanks. I have looked at the archeologist and detective and although hey looked fun I have not had the chance to try them out. That confirms my idea that they would be viable though.

I wonder if this concept fits a class better than it does a race. Working towards eventually removing all deficits or most of them. The class would have to be pretty sound to make a low level character viable though because with an initial constant penalty like blindness a character could end up getting over powered by the other adventurers very quickly or even be over powered by less powerful enemies.

This class seems pretty cool. The inclusion of some healing spells gives it a utility that can either be used as heals or as a weapon against the undead. If my usual cleric is willing we will test it out for you.

I usually DM, but I'm also the only person in my group that enjoys rogues and bards. I have done a lot of searching, but have found no real combination of the two. Obviously there would be concepts from both but some things would need to be left out in order to balance the class/archetype and not make the bard or rogue obsolete. I thoroughly like both classes, but I personally think that at least some aspects of both should come together and make a good spy. Maybe I think to much like in Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale where Bard was a subtype of the thief, just like assassin was. Anyways is this a viable concept or am I just going on a wild goose chase? Keep in mind I'm not trying to min/max anything and I'm not trying to outshine the bard or the rogue. I'm simply trying to find a rogue/bard combo that isn't a multi class and fits my idea of what a true master spy would be like.
The class would have
-the ability to use weapons that are similar to the bard or rogue.
-the ability to detect and disable traps of all kinds (lets face it a spy needs this when he/she infiltrates a villains base).
-disguise because it allows them to assume multiple roles
-stealth because they need to not get caught in restricted areas
-perception because they need to be able to notice things that are out of place
-Use Magic Device because a Master Spy uses anything they can find to help the mission (think James Bond and all of his gadgets).
-possibly knowledge skills and bardic knowledge because when he/she assumes a disguise certain knowledge factors that are incorrectly used could give away the disguise (think pretending to be a mechanic and calling the wrench a hammer).
-Arcane spells should be limited to self/party buffs and Illusion spells only but only if Arcane spells are even included which at this point they are not
This class would be as viable in melee combat as a bard/rogue multi class option not more powerful than that.

Other suggested musts are definitely open for discussion as are the musts I listed. I'm really hoping to come together as a group and make a class that isn't over powered, but isn't weak either. The musts I have included are for fluff purposes and I hope to bring to the table some kind of ability that makes that fluff unique to the concept versus a rogue/bard multiclass or solo class that attempts the same thing.

Movies, games, comics and other works of fiction have numerous cases of characters with impaired vision or that are completely blind and are bad asses. This may not be completely so in real life, but hey we're playing a fantasy game right?

Petie the Viking wrote:

For fluff reasons I wish to make a race that is completely blind but is still viable as a PC or at least a very well done NPC villain.

Hello Petie!

The owner of my FLGS (friendly local game store) has been going blind for decades and I worked with him to design the vestraadi. They've got a sonar ability that's more realistic to the experience of being blind (or so I'm told!) and should be right up your alley.

I like the idea of echolocation so I will definitely consider the idea. ALthough I think maybe a mix between your co created Vestraadi and the Grimlock that was mentioned by Peachbottom would be a good attempt at what I'm trying to find. The race itself will rely on other senses like sound, and scent to locate everything. Obviously from an evolutionary stance in the real world there are many creatures that have survived and are blind or near blind like bats and worms. The game itself also has monsters that are blind and have things like tremor sense to compensate. I just have never seen it done as a PC or humanoid NPC, except with the oracle that can take blindness as a curse, and in that case its very specific.

Well, blindness is a pretty huge impairment for an adventurer. I've seen people try to homebrew the blind warrior type before but all they ever do is give them blindsight, which is stupid because blindsight is better than normal sight. So the blindness ends up being irrelevant.

I'd give the race blindsense. Blindsense allows you to pinpoint the location of creatures and things around you. However, you still can't see them -- they still get total concealment and you're denied your Dex bonus to AC against their attacks. This effectively makes running a blind character not a chore at the table because then you don't have to make Perception checks every round.

You could also give them another sensory ability for flavor -- one that doesn't negate being blind. For example, maybe an at-will detect plants or animals. But that might not be necessary. Honestly, you could still make a very viable cleric or area-effect sorcerer with a blind character.

That is one of my worries. Blind sight makes the race being blind just extra words on the character. A limited type of sight granted by echo location may be feasible. In that case I'm thinking have the echo location be an at-will ability that is chosen as on or off like power attack or combat expertise, but a little more work would be needed to make sure the details are ironed out. I like the blind sense idea, but I think the NPCs/PCs would also need to take blind fight in order to reduce the penalties a little, ie still gets dex bonus. Either way I think you have given me some good ideas to reflect on thanks.

For fluff reasons I wish to make a race that is completely blind but is still viable as a PC or at least a very well done NPC villain. I referred to the advanced race guide however it states nothing on how being blind effects the race when it comes to being over powered or under powered. I think that I would need to give blind sense, or maybe a less beneficial blind fight, as a bonus feat otherwise it would be lacking at least 1 feat no matter what build it was. The race would be born without eyes and therefor not capable of ever being able to see with conventional ways. However I would make a home rule that magical effects that benefit, or debilitate, based on vision like scrying an enemy, or being the victim of an illusion spell would still work normally however this race would perceive the Illusion, scry, etc through that blind sense. I think this race would end up being purely fluff and just a way for someone to play the "blind swordsman" type. However if it goes well my group would be allowed to vote on if they want to keep it or not and if they do then I would likely make a campaign that revolves around them. I prefer wilderness races over technologically advanced races, and I think the race would end up mechanically working well for druids/rangers and all the other classes that work well with druids and rangers for multiclassing.