Even with limiting shapes for druids and polymorph, is being able to cast spells in a form that normally does not permit spell casting too powerful?
bandit 1 "oh my god, that brown bear just ripped Joe's head off"
bandit 2 "Don't look now but I think he's starting to cast a spell"
bandit 1 "What can we do?"
bandit 2 "If we hide for 6 hours or so it should wear off"
Now is the time to chime in so changes can get made, what are your thoughts?
Even with limiting shapes for druids and polymorph, is being able to cast spells in a form that normally does not permit spell casting too powerful?
bandit 1 "oh my god, that brown bear just ripped Joe's head off"
bandit 2 "Don't look now but I think he's starting to cast a spell"
bandit 1 "What can we do?"
bandit 2 "If we hide for 6 hours or so it should wear off"Now is the time to chime in so changes can get made, what are your thoughts?
Is posting in threads already about this topic TOO POWERFUL for you to handle?
I think, probably not, as long as Natural Spell is used as written rather than with houseruled enhancements.
But, I freely admit, I've not playtested it or anything.
-S
Given that the Cleric can walk around casting after casting all his melee buffs on himself (which is what Wild Shape really is), then it can't be that unfair to let Druids do it.
I'm about to try how it works, when Natural Spell works only on spells that target the caster. Still makes them extremle dangerous in close combat, but at least druids won't nuke you with flame stricks and lightning in animal form.
Still, unless we're talking about Quicken Spell, you're either ripping somebody's head off in animal form, *or* you're casting a spell on your turn, you're not doing both.
A flame strike cast by a Druid in bear form isnt any more powerful than a human casting it. And you're still more vulnerable as a bear since you don't have as high of an AC, and actually if anything, bear spells are less powerful because you dont have wisdom booster items on..
Or at least, thats how it should happen. The problem with Wild Shape is that you can techncially take off all your gear, then get your buddy to put it back on you while you're a bear, or carry around bear-sized stuff in a bag of holding and get your buddy to put it on you every day. Or thats how it used to be, dunno if Paizo changed that about it.
*That* is what needs to change, not natural spell. Natural spell is built around a system with drawbacks, the problem is that the gear drawbacks are removed, making it seem as if natural spell is overpowered.
Still, as a druid there is almost no reason not to take it. Some people say that makes it overpowered. I say that means it should just be a class feature.
Still, unless we're talking about Quicken Spell, you're either ripping somebody's head off in animal form, *or* you're casting a spell on your turn, you're not doing both.
A flame strike cast by a Druid in bear form isnt any more powerful than a human casting it. And you're still more vulnerable as a bear since you don't have as high of an AC, and actually if anything, bear spells are less powerful because you dont have wisdom booster items on..
Or at least, thats how it should happen. The problem with Wild Shape is that you can techncially take off all your gear, then get your buddy to put it back on you while you're a bear, or carry around bear-sized stuff in a bag of holding and get your buddy to put it on you every day. Or thats how it used to be, dunno if Paizo changed that about it.
*That* is what needs to change, not natural spell. Natural spell is built around a system with drawbacks, the problem is that the gear drawbacks are removed, making it seem as if natural spell is overpowered.
Still, as a druid there is almost no reason not to take it. Some people say that makes it overpowered. I say that means it should just be a class feature.
Removing/adding gear to an animal form is not as easy as it sounds. Or shouldn't be. It's up to the DM to rule if a bear can wear a magic ring, belts, etc. My DM doesn't allow that in the game I play in. Wilding clasps are one partial way around that. Bear size items are another. Ours may be more houserule than RAW though.
Natural Spell hasn't been a problem in our campaign. Maybe because I use it sparingly. And my AC drops significantly when I'm in animal form. (My DM loves that part.)
I think that wild shaping into animal forms is going to be much less popular when players discover you can shapeshift into an air elemental (for a flying form) or an earth elemental (for a non-flying form) which are capable of speech.
Also note that gear that gives a permanent(ish) bonus is unaffected by wild shaping in Pathfinder, so there's no need to take off a belt, wild shape, then put it back on.
Still, as a druid there is almost no reason not to take it. Some people say that makes it overpowered. I say that means it should just be a class feature.
Good point. I've never considered Natural Spell overpowered. The fact that Druids pretty much always take that feat bring into question why they don't just get it as a class feature, at say, 9th level.
I think that wild shaping into animal forms is going to be much less popular when players discover you can shapeshift into an air elemental (for a flying form) or an earth elemental (for a non-flying form) which are capable of speech.
Also note that gear that gives a permanent(ish) bonus is unaffected by wild shaping in Pathfinder, so there's no need to take off a belt, wild shape, then put it back on.
Good points. Pathfinder's looking better everyday! Bummer that I'm probably going to be the DM for it rather than a player.
My principal issue with natural spell is the ability to quickly get airborne, get out of range and flame strike your opponents to death.
True, the wizard can do something similar with fly/levitation and a much more potent arsenal of damage spell, but the wizard also has limited options (low hp, low attack bonus and less combat buff spells).
The main abuse of Natural Spell was the ability of the druid to wildshape into some obscenely useful form (raptor, war troll, or whatever), spell himself up, and then mow through everything. Each new MM book introduced new and improved monsters for the Druid to shift into, and it was quite frankly game breaking.
Now however, that has changed drastically. Paizo has pulled the pin on the nerf grenade just subsequent to sticking it down the druids pants.
Druids are now relegated to nearly any form they had before- but with only a very very specific narrow set of bonuses. They don't get whatever the monster had. They get what the corresponding spell gives them. Not coincidentally, these bonuses are Also of the type most common to PC magical items. Enhancement. While this still allows the druid to wear (and keep) a headband of Wisdom on, it also means that the physical stat booster they wear will probably not stack with the spell.
The fact that it strictly limits the abilities taken (regeneration? bye bye. +1090909348 to strength? bye bye!) means that the ability of the druid to cast while wildshaped isn't nearly as serious an isasue as it used to be.
Is it annoying to have an eagle casting flamestrike? Sure. But no more annoying than any other flying person doing it. (hide check while flying?... probably not).
Overall: Is it useful? Sure. Is it game breaking? Probably not.
I think we'll find Druids going back to using Wildshape for utility rather than for sheer power. (i.e. monkey to climb, bird to fly, fish to swim, rather than perma-raptor for uber combat, etc..).
-S
Each new MM book introduced new and improved monsters for the Druid to shift into, and it was quite frankly game breaking.
This is the innate problem of Polymorph effects that aren't very well defined. Every monster book makes the core effects more powerful, and that is bad.
That said, yes the druid could shapeshift into something nasty and go to town, but the cleric could do the same thing via his combat buffs.
My principal issue with natural spell is the ability to quickly get airborne, get out of range and flame strike your opponents to death.
True, the wizard can do something similar with fly/levitation and a much more potent arsenal of damage spell, but the wizard also has limited options (low hp, low attack bonus and less combat buff spells).
I'm a bit confused. A wizard can pretty much duplicate the getting airborn, get out of range, and blast the area a whole lot better than a druid. Spell DCs (attack bonus) don't change.
Your wizard limitations relate more to hand to hand, or at least reachable. On the ground, or near to it, and the druid does have the advantage.
Except the cleric's buffs run out eventually. Wildshape (practically) never does.
After.. 8th level I think? (or whatever level it is you can use it twice a day?) its essentially permanent. It still is- but with the power so relatively low it isn't a problem anymore. Before, it was. And Natural Spell helped alot by not forcing the druid into humanoid form to cast any of his spells.
Now druids are more to where they should be.
the Wizard SOD has been sufficiently neutered.
I'm not sure where the Cleric is.. I've not noticed any nerfs aside from the absense of DMM. If they keep DMM out of the game, that alone would make me happy.
However, I've also not paid alot of attention to individual cleric spells in P3.
-S
That said, yes the druid could shapeshift into something nasty and go to town, but the cleric could do the same thing via his combat buffs.
Yes, but in 3 to 4 rounds instead of 1 standard action...
is it annoying to have an eagle casting flamestrike? Sure. But no more annoying than any other flying person doing it. (hide check while flying?... probably not).
Overall: Is it useful? Sure. Is it game breaking? Probably not.
Not in a high-magic high-fantasy campaign, but it may be in campaign where magic is slightly restricted and more mysterious. Not a low magic setting to the point where druids are prohibited as a character class, but enough for most people not to be able to immediately and flawlessly recognize that the spell is coming from an eagle flying 200 ft. away in weird pattern.
I recognizes that this come from another issue (whether spells cast via natural spells are as easily recognizable as in humanoid shape), but the Natural Spells feat, as written, will remain a source of confusion, misinterpretation and frustration
I would add that the druid's wildshape options were limited, animals at first and so on. While lasting an hour per level you had to revert to humanoid form to cast any type of spell. With limited uses per day this was a problem. Hence the value of Natural Spell.
Magical animals and monster types weren't an option (save elementals) without specific feats such as Draconic Wild Shape.
Pathfinder simplifies the transfer by limiting it to specific types, Beast Shape, then the others if you use spells. Not sure how the large number of feats can work with this so I expect the number to be reduced.
Not in a high-magic high-fantasy campaign, but it may be in campaign where magic is slightly restricted and more mysterious. Not a low magic setting to the point where druids are prohibited as a character class, but enough for most people not to be able to immediately and flawlessly recognize that the spell is coming from an eagle flying 200 ft. away in weird pattern.
I recognizes that this come from another issue (whether spells cast via natural spells are as easily recognizable as in humanoid shape), but the Natural Spells feat, as written, will remain a source of confusion, misinterpretation and frustration
In a campaign where magic is more restrictive Natural Spell could muddy the waters, but if the DM wants to restrict magic why not restrict the feats that touch on it? It all depends on the campaign intent.
A DM does not have to use/allow ALL rules.
I'm a bit confused. A wizard can pretty much duplicate the getting airborn, get out of range, and blast the area a whole lot better than a druid. Spell DCs (attack bonus) don't change.
Your wizard limitations relate more to hand to hand, or at least reachable. On the ground, or near to it, and the druid does have the advantage.
Absolutely, but as wizards, blasting people is what they do best. Natural Spells gives the druid, who is already a more versatile class in combat options than the wizard/sorcerer, yet another option to "equal" the wizard.
Also a flying wizard remains a very suspicious thing from which you can (and should) expect oncoming spells (with a nice little trail of smoke leading to its spellcaster)
Even if this regards another issue with natural spells, an eagle flying in weird zig-zagy spellcasting pattern might not be such an obvious source of spells, especially if you haven't witnessed the transformation.
The only confusion with natural spell currently is the issue of what limbs are used to cast spells.
Are wings as to arms, as feet are to feet? It makes sense, but Birds tend to use their feet both as hands And feet, and their wings mostly as.. well.. wings. (I'm no bird expert, but i've net to see a bird pick up anything with a wing..)
A bird flying would have a hard time casting a S spell if wings -> arms, but not much trouble if foot->hand/leg.
Most other confusion comes from people reading into the feat, things that don't exist. Such as whether or not wildshaped/polymorphed creatures are harder on a spellcraft roll.
An eagle flying 200 ft up is hard to detect because it's a small creature flying 200 ft up. That's a heckua spot check, especially to notice before battle has even started.
(distance makes it harder to see, as does the size.. hide modifier? still not sure.. but that's an issue with flying not the spell or feat in question)
Natural spell was OP before, because it allowed the Druid to take an already OP ability: wild shape: and stay in it 24/7 without need to Ever come out. They could buff themselves and their animal companions, cast healing spells and summoning spells all while in the guise of an animal/monster/whatever that was supercharged and specially chosen for the thing the druid wanted to do that day.
Wildshape has specifically been neutered and neutralized to the extent that it isn't an abuse anymore to stay in shape 24/7. No matter what shape you take you are limited by the (X shape) spell descriptions. Within that framework, I don't think Natural spell is over powered.
-S
In a campaign where magic is more restrictive Natural Spell could muddy the waters, but if the DM wants to restrict magic why not restrict the feats that touch on it? It all depends on the campaign intent.
A DM does not have to use/allow ALL rules.
Sure, and it would be easy to houserule that natural spells work on spells with personal range only. But since the rest of the core feats seem to be balanced vis-a-vis the level of magic in the campaign and the issue was raised in this post, I though i'd comment...
Well, yeah.. Naturally (pun?.. hmm maybe), I'm referring to the feat used in an "average campaign".. That is to say, not "super" or "low" magic.
If the DM is changing the campaign to make it low magic, then while they are at it, some feats and class abilities will need to be neutered. This isn't an issue of core balance, but one of the needs of a specific campaign. The feat should still exist in core even if in "low magic" settings, it would need to be removed.
The same is true for things that were invented for the high magic settings. Inventing it for high magic doesn't mean transplanting it into core or carrying it over into the low magic settings. (flying ships and hovering trains from Eberron, are a good example of this).
-S
Sure, and it would be easy to houserule that natural spells work on spells with personal range only. But since the rest of the core feats seem to be balanced vis-a-vis the level of magic in the campaign and the issue was raised in this post, I though i'd comment...In a campaign where magic is more restrictive Natural Spell could muddy the waters, but if the DM wants to restrict magic why not restrict the feats that touch on it? It all depends on the campaign intent.
A DM does not have to use/allow ALL rules.
They're good comments. I'm awaiting the Beta to really see how it balances things. I'm still stuck in the mountain of stuff from 3.5. Too many books and options IMO. Our DM limits things as a matter of necessity.
Natural Spell seems (and in the campaigns I have played and run, is) THE feat that druids always take at level 6. When a feat is so good that is almost required, there's something wrong with it.
Natural Spell has a lot of advantages that are not readily apparent on paper but they do como into play in actual gaming. The ability to take unassuming shapes and bomb from above is just one of them.
And more important (at least to me) is it goes against the very flavor of the druid and the wild shape. Changing into beast form has always been (and should still be) for movement, stealth, combat and other such functions, and if you need to use your spell magic, then you revert to humanoid form. It must be some things that the base form is better suited in, and spellcasting should be one of them. I believe that polymorphing into a beast all day long, still being able to cast spells thanks to natural spell, is one of the things that lead to the myth of "As a druid, I don't care if I have Str, Dex and Con 3" and the CoD point of view. The new Wild Shape and Beast Shape spells go a long way to solve this, and Natural Spell has been somewhat nerfed by it, but still.
If Natural Spell had some sort of cost, a slot one level higher, for example, at least it would imply some sort of choice, but as is, the feat is completely broken both in crunch and fluff, and is one of the extremely few feats I currently disallow it in the campaigns I run as a DM.
If Natural Spell had some sort of cost, a slot one level higher, for example, at least it would imply some sort of choice, but as is, the feat is completely broken both in crunch and fluff, and is one of the extremely few feats I currently disallow it in the campaigns I run as a DM.
Indeed, making it a metamagic feat would definitively nerf it down... too much even?
If Natural Spell had some sort of cost, a slot one level higher, for example, at least it would imply some sort of choice, but as is, the feat is completely broken both in crunch and fluff, and is one of the extremely few feats I currently disallow it in the campaigns I run as a DM.Indeed, making it a metamagic feat would definitively nerf it down... too much even?
Too much IMO. Probably depends on if your particular game is having a balance problem.
Also, wild shape is limited to one shape per use. While you may bomb the area with spells in birdie form using Natural Spell that birdie form may not be practical for long. Changing to wolf form would require a second use, and so on.
This argument ignores the Shapeshifter variant, or Warshaper PrC.
When a feat is so good that is almost required, there's something wrong with it.
Well, either there's something wrong with it or it should be a class feature.
Well, either there's something wrong with it or it should be a class feature.
Yes, that's right, but with Natural Spell, I personally would not like to see it added to the druid class features. I don't know, perhaps it's just a pet peeve of mine, but it does not fit my mental picture of what a druid is like. I really think it should be some element of decision-making: should I stay in my base form and cast spells? Or should I become a beast and enter the fray (or scout, spy, whatever)?
With Natural Spell as currently written, this becomes less of an issue. If the feat would require some cost or have some limit (personal spells only, or a slot one lever higher, etc), I would find it less disrupting.
It does have a cost. It costs a feat. The player has to decide they will be WS'd enough of the time to justify the expense of the feat.
I agree it was a problem in prior editions with how WS worked (and how those prestige classes worked and such) but in p3 I really don't see it being a big problem. They've already taken most of the bite out of Wildshape, especially prior to them getting elemental forms. I don't see the need to nerf them further by disallowing Natural Spell, or by making them expend greater spell slots to use it.
-S
It does have a cost. It costs a feat. The player has to decide they will be WS'd enough of the time to justify the expense of the feat.
I agree it was a problem in prior editions with how WS worked (and how those prestige classes worked and such) but in p3 I really don't see it being a big problem. They've already taken most of the bite out of Wildshape, especially prior to them getting elemental forms. I don't see the need to nerf them further by disallowing Natural Spell, or by making them expend greater spell slots to use it.
Yes, it does cost a feat, but if with that feat you gain a power that is inherently better than any other available option, I find it hard to really see it as a cost.
Anyway, you're probably right about it, and it's not such an issue in Pathfinder as it used to be. Wild Shape it's not what it used to be, that's for sure (and that's a good thing, IMHO: simple, straight-forward and easy to use). I'm waiting to have one of my druid PCs to be high enough level to playtest the new WS with Natural Spell.
As I said in previous posts, I have other concerns about it, such as the (powerful) ability to cast spell after spell in unassuming, nearly undetectable forms, or bomb away spells from high on (something that does not fit with my druid conceptions), or removing the need to be in human form, not to mention the somewhat disney-esque mental picture of an eagle waving its wings as if they were arms and squeaking magic words (it's rather odd, and most players I know find it rather funny and comic, no matter how much I try to describe the scene in frightening or menacing way.)