I believe Golarion is a place for Adventure Paths and Modules 1st DM creativity 2nd (you need a location for your number one sales products)
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Still, wait for the final product before making -any- sort of judgments about a game world they've spent so much time creating. Some of the influences are obvious, but in the end it seems to me like a vibrant game world that looks like a lot of fun to play in. Hell, I know quite a few people who are looking at Golarion as the successor to the Realms, since Wizards pretty much nuked that setting from orbit.
Hell, I know quite a few people who are looking at Golarion as the successor to the Realms, since Wizards pretty much nuked that setting from orbit.
It's the only way to be sure. ;-)
Actually I wasn't looking for another setting when I started reading up on Golarion. Initially my plans were to adapt the adventure paths to my home crew, but then when I started reading the background material, I found that I quite like it the way it is. I have ran some Realms campaigns in the past, but I wasn't going to look at any material beyond the end of 3rd edition if I ended up using it again. I love Greenwood's vision of the Realms, but right now I'm more interested in plundering the depths of Golarion.
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I was pretty much the same way. I love the Realms, but with all the changes they made (and their killing of my character's patron deity in a very, very stupid manner...and no, I'm not actually referring to Mystra, though that was equally stupid), I'm just not interested anymore. I looked over the Pathfinder adventures, though, and the background material, and decided I really, really want to play in this setting :)
Of course there are analogues..some obvious...some less so. The fact is that there are very, very few settings that deviate strongly from earth analogues. It would take a masterful understanding of anthropology and an unbelievable amount of creativity to come up with a wholly unfamiliar world filled with different cultures none of which bear much resemblance to those of the earth. This isn't something I would expect nor really anything I would want.
There are some good non traditional settings out there such as:
Jorune
Tekumel
Athas
Avadnu Inner Circle Publishing (looking forward to seeing what they do with this...hopefully it'll stay 3.5e. If it ges 4e, they lost me.)
These places are pretty darn alien. For some folks, that is great. I know I love alien realities sometimes but more often than not we return to the familiar. I Was running a 2e campaign on Athas for several years before one of my players said, "I miss horses." I gotta admit, I missed horses too.
My favorite type of setting takes the familiar and switches things up enough to dust old tropes off and present them in a new way. As I and my writing partners write up my new setting I readily admit that I have been influenced by many sources from Robert E. Howard and Tolkien to Arthurian Grail Romances and Greek Myths, from ancient Celtic and Babyonian mythology to real world Saxon, Persian, Chinese, and African history. Actually, it would be impossible to note all of the influences one has because often what appears to be a brand new idea is actually rooted in a book you read fifteen years ago but forgot about.
If the setting is well made, with good fluff, internal consistancy and the illusion of versimilitude it will work...often in part due to recognizable elements. Too many worldbuilding types try so hard to be different that the differences seem forced and unnatural.
Just my two pennies.
Creative Director
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We absolutely looked to the "classics" (some could certainly say cliche) for building the nations of Golarion, since we wanted this world to evoke the early feel of D&D as well as the feel of the types of stories that Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz, and the rest were inspired by (and got listed in the DMG's Appendix N). The world was also absolutely built to be an "Adventure Path" generator... but not just for Paizo. For the majority of our first three Adventure Paths, after all, we spend an awful lot of time in Varisia. At this rate, it'll take us, what, 40 years to cover all the nations in the Inner Sea region? I guarantee you that we'll be expanding into the other continents, planets, and planes well before then.
Which is a way of saying that we won't be building adventure paths for every nation. And if one of those nations inspires a GM to build his own adventure path, then Golarion is Working As Intended.
It's kind of cool to see someone else's take on these countries... interpretation and relative experience and all. I'd love to see some other folks take stabs at guessing the seeds that generated some of these countries. I mean, some are obvious in their reasons for existing and came out of apparent needs: "We need a place to set Egyptian-themed adventures" *poof* the concept behind what would become Osirion gets born. A few of the others are a little more, "You get that vibe from it? Huh. Neat." Which is cool. As soon as Golarion falls into your hot little hands it's your baby, so do what you want with it and make it what you want.
As to the question posed by the OP, "This raises the question - is Golarion primarily a means to set and sell Adventure Paths or is it primarily a place for DMs to set their own campaigns?"
Ummm... yes? I mean... Golarion is a place to set adventures. I would kind of think whether or not that adventure appears in print doesn't matter to most GMs.
Out of all of the countries in Golarion thus far, only one was created to be a home to an Adventure Path: Varisia, as we didn't have a whole world when we were coming up with Rise of the Runelords. So we made a place that would have everything the Rise of the Runelords AP would need. Weirdly, next month we start our third Adventure Path largely set in Varisia, and the second AP that has little to nothing to do with runelords. I'd say we've gotten pretty good mileage out of a place built with one AP plot in mind, and we've still got quite a few stories we're fixin' to tell there.
As to the idea that the other countries were made to house Adventure Paths, it sounds really nice actually and I kind of wish that were the case--James and I would have plots done for the next 10 years instead of just ideas for the next two. In truth, though, we have the same challenges most GMs face, primarily: Where do we think it would be cool to set our next adventure. This is a concern both Pathfinder Adventure Paths and the Pathfinder Modules are constantly faced with. I'd hate to think that any of Avistan's or Garund's countries can only handle one shtick--we put out a lot of adventures in a year and would burn through countries pretty fast if each only had room for one story to be told. In fact, we just ran into the "Where Next" question with Legacy of Fire, trying to decide what to do and where to set it. Although we might be a little thick and regularly exhausted, we didn't think choosing the spot for the next AP was a terribly obvious choice and we came up with a lot of these places.
All of that aside, the basic idea behind Golarion from day one has been, give GMs a world to tell the stories they want. If you wanted to run a Conan-esque adventure, we made a place for that. If you want a place that feels like something out of Voyage of the Space Beagle, there's a place for that. If you wanted to tell a story similar to Dune, you've got that too. If you're a huge Jack Vance fan, there's a spot for his style stuff too. Heck, if you really like China Mieville, he's got some love in there too! So yeah, we hope we gave folks places to run the games they like or try adventures they might not have thought of before. Really, though, the world is still widely undetailed and, like I think I said before, it's all yours, do what you want, tell the stories you like, and have fun!
The world was also absolutely built to be an "Adventure Path" generator... but not just for Paizo.
Think of it like a virtual D&D Disneyland.
Think of it like a virtual D&D Disneyland.
Whoa... I think that was called Captain EO... and that was kinda scary.
Think of it like a virtual D&D Disneyland.Whoa... I think that was called Captain EO... and that was kinda scary.
But you guys don't have Michael Jackson. Or is Zon-Kuthon supposed to be him?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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But you guys don't have Michael Jackson. Or is Zon-Kuthon supposed to be him?Think of it like a virtual D&D Disneyland.Whoa... I think that was called Captain EO... and that was kinda scary.
The best part of Captain EO was the Asteroid that looked like it was gonna smack you in the face. =)
Not the highlight of my trip to Disneyland when I was 12.
But you guys don't have Michael Jackson. Or is Zon-Kuthon supposed to be him?
Mickey Mouse, Jack Daniels, and Roofies all agree, "No comment."
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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When I sat down to create Golarion and later brainstormed with Jason Bulmahn, who added several of his own ideas, the goal was to think of as many campaign types as possible and make sure that there was a place for them in the world.
So, while you're correct in your observation that each nation is designed first and foremost to be the site of a _campaign_, said campaign need not be an Adventure Path campaign. It would take us decades to spin through Avistan and Garund in the form of Adventure Paths, but the "campaign model" approach does indeed make setting an AP (or a campaign of your own design) easier.
I didn't want to create a world with countries like Idee or the County of Urnst or what have you where most readers think... "Ok, so what am I supposed to do with this?"
I wanted to answer to that question to be somewhat obvious (especially in the overview Gazetteer), which is one reason why I included a short description in the "stat block" for each country ("Diabolical Empire in Decline," "Eternal Revolution," and the like.
You've pegged several influences of the various nations, but like Wes said it's interesting to see your list because some of them aren't quite what I was going for and others are missing key thematic elements.
Numeria, for example, is clearly an homage to Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, but I didn't have Dave's Blackmoor campaign in mind when I wrote it (though I admit the comparison is apt). I _did_ have Thundarr the Barbarian in mind, though, in the way that savagery meets super-science. There's also a fairly interesting "crusader highway" element to that country that gives it a spin somewhat different from its inspirations, so while some cultural lifts are obvious (Qadira, for example), others are somewhat more complex.
Absalom, as you note, is the "big RPG city" in the manner of Greyhawk or Waterdeep, but it also borrows elements from Jerusalem in that it is a holy city with great importance to several powerful religions.
By thinking of campaign models first and borrowing from history and popular culture, I sought to create a world that was easy to get into and make your own while staying true to the game's pulp roots.
--Erik
Mammoth Lords, Realm of the - Quest for Fire, Clan of the Cave Bear, 10,000 Years BC, Land That Time Forgot etc.
The last paragraph in the PCG for the Mammoth Lords on page 40 reminds me of the Mystara's Hollow World campaign setting for classic DnD.
--Ray.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Absalom, as you note, is the "big RPG city" in the manner of Greyhawk or Waterdeep, but it also borrows elements from Jerusalem in that it is a holy city with great importance to several powerful religions.
The nod to Gary Gygax in the name and house of the ruler of the City is quite possibly my favorite part of the whole world. Who better to run the City at the Center of the World?
Working As Intended.
Rogue Vanish is still broken, and nerf warlocks.
I _did_ have Thundarr the Barbarian in mind, though, in the way that savagery meets super-science...
Ha! Awesome! And who wouldn't want to play a Mok?
The best part of Captain EO was the Asteroid that looked like it was gonna smack you in the face. =)
Not the highlight of my trip to Disneyland when I was 12.
No, the best part of Captain EO was the evil queen. Evil alien woman with costume design by HR Giger. This is in hindsight mind you, since I was like 9 when I saw that movie, and she just freaked me out at the time.
Numeria, for example, is clearly an homage to Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, but I didn't have Dave's Blackmoor campaign in mind when I wrote it (though I admit the comparison is apt). I _did_ have Thundarr the Barbarian in mind, though, in the way that savagery meets super-science.
+1 AWESOME
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Andoran - Greece. Backwards. Real history goes Greece, Rome, Byzantium. PCG goes Byzantium, Rome, Greece. See Cheliax and Taldor.
Modern Greece, Historical Greece, Ancient Greece, Prehistoric Greece or Mythological Greece (and if so, which bit)?
Your description sounds like your heading for Classical Greece (although perhaps Hellenistic or Archaic) but I don't see Andoran as a nation of slave-owners.
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I have finished reading The Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer (PCG) and am struck by just how easy it is to identify the “steals” that went into making up the campaign setting. YMMV but this is my count:
Belkzen, Hold of - The Pomarj (Greyhawk) or any other Orc realm.
Some of your parallels are extremely unfair. Of course Belkzen is going tobe similar to any other ocr nation, because it is an orc nation. I don't think paizo said "let's copy every other orc nation when we do Belkzen." By the way, that write-up in Pathfinder 11 was excellent.
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Having the origins of nations and the cultures of people living in them analagous to some (or many!) in the real-world and popular fantasy is helpful in the most crucial place for a tabletop RPG: at the game table. Rather than spend an inordinate amount of time describing Vudra, it's nice to be able to say, "think India," everyone nods, and we move past the proprietors of the Twin Tigers and get right to the business on Eel's End.
(Real experience by real gamers playing "Edge of Anarchy" this past week... may or may not be Geiko customers.)
Wasn't that Angelica Houston?
Ayup. Wikipediaed:
"The film stars Michael Jackson. It was directed by Francis Ford Coppola, executive-produced by George Lucas, choreographed by Jeffrey Hornaday, photographed by Vittorio Storaro, produced by Rusty Lemorande, and written by Lemorande, Lucas and Coppola. The score was written by James Horner, and featured two songs ("We Are Here to Change the World" and "Another Part of Me") by Michael Jackson. The Supreme Leader was played by Anjelica Huston."
Although I see some of the examples quite clearly, I think some of the nations are more open to source interpretation. Part of that is, to me, the overall feel of "era" that Golarion evokes in many ways.
Citing some comparasons:
Greyhawk - Despite its fantasy elements, the world has always evoked a feeling of low through high medieval eras. Depending on where you are, it just seems that much of the game world sticks to the traditional, European Medieval cultural timeframe (Nyrond, Keoland come to mind). The city of Greyhawk's success seems to stem from being contradictory to this mindset - with an almost Renaissance era mindset in some ways.
Faerun/Forgotten Realms - Although there's clearly Medieval Era kingdoms in this game world (Tethyr, Cormyr), there's also an emphasis on non-fuedal nations like Sembia or Calimshan. Overall, the Forgotten Realms has more overt high fantasy elements, but also seems to evoke a Renaissance Era feel with the emphasis on greater individualism and non-royal, non-religious nation-states. As with Greyhawk, Waterdeep seems to reflect that best.
With Golarion, someone else mentioned the 17th or 18th century feel, but I tend to feel it is more akin to the Post-Reformation, Age of Exploration feel of Europe - more akin to maybe the 15th or 16th century.
Maybe because it is new, the world seems to evoke a sort of curiosity about it that gives off that vibe. But it's also because you seem to have a great deal more cultural elements than just traditional medieval ones going on. Old empires such as Taldor and Cheliax collapsing from religion, age, and rebellion seem to evoke the splintering of the Holy Roman Empire, the Ottoman rise from the Byzantine Empire, and the increasing power of Spanish and English nation states. It's an era that sees all the trappings of medieval aspects still there combined with new innovations from exploration. The pirates of the Shackles seem very much to evoke the Carribbean Age of Sail while Andoran seems to be hinting at the trappings of the Age of Enlightenment. Throw in a mix of magic and technology, and you have elements of fantasy set in era of dynamic transition.
Anyhow, that's way more of an analysis than I intended to explain that despite the "Dungeons" and the "Dragons", Golarion seems to be developing more fantasical elements than just the classic, medieval mindset.
By the way, that write-up in Pathfinder 11 was excellent.
Yeah! Sutter has become Mr. Gazetter as of late, with an overview of Kyonin coming up in #17. As soon as we strip out the obligatory robot, super conductor, and/or flux capacitor he always tries to sneak in (and sometimes succeeds) they're really great. Thanks Sutter. :P
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while Andoran seems to be hinting at the trappings of the Age of Enlightenment
I think that Andoran was largely inspired the the U.S.A. Here's a few quotes from Andoran's gazetteer entry:
they offered citizenship in the new kingdom without a king, where all men were equal and leaders ruled only at the mandate of the people.
Today, Andoran owes its power to a consortium of political radicals, wealthy merchant lords, and
sympathetic aristocrats who seek to spread the political philosophy of Common Rule and open new markets throughout the world.
Andorens seek not just to transform their homeland, but to export their cultural, philosophical, and mercantile beliefs to the world.
The world thus views Andorens as troublemakers and unwanted ideological imperialists.
From the highest government official of Andoran to its lowliest servant, nearly everyone believes in the tenets of the People’s Revolt that transformed their nation some 40 years ago. They are the children of the second and third generations of liberty, and their faith in the Andoren way is resolute.
So just from the above quotes:
1] Democracy
2] Capitalism
3] Economic and cultural imperialism
4] As it states in the U.S. Constitution, "All men were created equal" 5] Disdain from the rest of the world
6] A revolution that resulted in the establishment of the nation
7] Seceding generations are resolute patriots
8] Faith in "the Andoren way" which is comparable to the well-established phrase "the American way."
Also,
9] Abolishment of slavey and abhorance for it
10] no longer have an aristocracy
11] the catchphrase under the country's name is "The Birthplace of Freedom" (That phrase is very apropos to how many Americans view their country.)
12] The government is a huge bureaucracy.
13] The Supreme Elect is the Andoren equivalent of the U.S. President
14] The People's Council is the equivalent of the U.S. Senate/House of Representatives
Whew! Did I miss anything?
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Did I miss anything?
I see the Lumber Consortium and their a) rape of the land and b) mistreatment of the lower classes as a direct corollary to Big Oil in the US right now. And countless other major US corporations.
But I don't get the sense that Andoran is run by an inept power-monger, so we might be way off base with the USA parallel.
But I don't get the sense that Andoran is run by an inept power-monger, so we might be way off base with the USA parallel.
Hey, that's only true of the last eight years, and I suspect that regardless of which candidate gets elected next, things will return to a more normal state, as neither of them seem particularly radical/stupid.
Golarion is just perfect for me.
It's a 'sort of' Greyhawk that was never realized for me back in First Edition.
Mind you, it may not be anything like Greyhawk. In the old days, we only got glimpses and peeks.. and I left the hobby before it started to be formally developed on a large scale.
But back to point.. Golarion is the fully developed campaign world that I really really wished for back in '80 to '85.
It's classic, without being retro..
And I'm about one month away from my one year anniversery as being a regular Golarion customer/subscriber/junkie.
Thanks for the good times Paizo! Here's to many more!
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Director of Brand Strategy
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And I'm about one month away from my one year anniversery as being a regular Golarion customer/subscriber/junkie.
This is true! Those of us who have the esteemed honor of being charter sub- or superscribers should get a prize. Other than our August subscription items, I mean. What will it be, Paizo? Free item cards?
I think that Andoran was largely inspired the the U.S.A. Here's a few quotes from Andoran's gazetteer entry:
I think you're right, but I see a bit of early Revolutionary (pre-Terror) France in it too, especially the part about exporting the revolution and some of the titled aristocracy being apparently willing to give those titles and privileges up.
Golarion is just perfect for me.
It's a 'sort of' Greyhawk that was never realized for me back in First Edition.
Mind you, it may not be anything like Greyhawk. In the old days, we only got glimpses and peeks.. and I left the hobby before it started to be formally developed on a large scale.
But back to point.. Golarion is the fully developed campaign world that I really really wished for back in '80 to '85.
It's classic, without being retro..
And I'm about one month away from my one year anniversery as being a regular Golarion customer/subscriber/junkie.
Thanks for the good times Paizo! Here's to many more!
I feel the same way Watcher does. It is an exciting, and creative world that is steeped in the roots of DnD. I find the OP's criticism a little odd. IMO, a DnD world should "scream" adventure, and I believe Golarion does.
Best.
