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LOL, found New Rules after posting to Skills and Magic.
Here's an idea I've kicked around as a homebrew ever since 3rd Edition.
Split out the Spellcraft skill into the different schools of magic, much like the Knowledge, Profession, Craft and Perform skills.
Spellcraft (abjuration) (Charisma-based, Trained)
Spellcraft (conjuration) (Wisdom-based, Trained)
Spellcraft (divination) (Wisdom-based, Trained)
Spellcraft (enchantment) (Charisma-based, Trained)
Spellcraft (evocation) (Intelligence-based, Trained)
Spellcraft (illusion) (Charisma-based, Trained)
Spellcraft (necromancy) (Wisdom-based, Trained)
Spellcraft (transmutation) (Intelligence-based, Trained)
Spellcraft (universal) (Intelligence-based, Trained)
Now, you're asking a lot of why's and how's probably. Here's some of the proposed changes:
First off, you'll need to give spellcasters more skill points. Probably give the heavy hitters like Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers and Spellcasters another 4. I wouldn't increase the skill points of the Bard, Paladin or Ranger, since they aren't primary magic-users, but rather dabblers in the art.
Okay, now for the real overhaul part. Change the Magic system. No more spells/day, but rather have them roll a spellcraft check every time the magic-user wants to cast a spell. Now you might be seeing where the different ability modifiers for the schools comes in. Bards & Sorcerers would excel at Abjuration, Enchantment and Illusion spells, Clerics & Druids would be great at Conjuration, Divination and Necromantic spells. And Wizards would be the Evocation, Transmutation and Universal go-to guys.
Beautiful part is, we don't have to change the spells themselves, just how we're using them.
To cast a spell, you have to succeed at a Spellcraft check of 10 + 2*Spell Level (so a 0 level spell is a DC 10, a 4th is DC 18, a 9th is DC 28). If you succeed, the result of the check is the Saving Throw DC that the target has to overcome (makes the lower-level spells more powerful, keeps the higher level in check). If you want to Metamagic the spell, increase it's level as noted in the metamagic ability and calculate the new skill DC.
Bards and Sorcerers still only known a certain number of spells to cast from. Divine casters make the Spellcraft check, basically asking their deity for the spell. Wizards get a mod. They know a certain number of spells like a Sorcerer, but they can have extra spells in their spellbook that they can cast as long as they use their book. asting a spell that usually takes less than a full round while using the book increases the casting time to a full round. But using the spellbook gives a +5 insight bonus on the spellcraft check since you're following the 'recipe'.
The last part is what keeps everyone honest about the spells they cast. I borrowed it from Shadowrun's Drain rules, and modified it for use with this. Basically, when you cast a spell, if you succeed the check by more than 5, nothing happens. If you succeed by 5 or less, then you take that number as nonlethal damage. So, if the Spellcraft DC is 18 and you get 21, you'll take 3 nonlethal damage. if you fail the check by less than 5, then you'll take double nonlethal damage and become fatigued (i.e. DC of 18 and you rolled up 15, then you'll take 6 nonlethal damage). If you fail by more than five, then the difference becomes lethal damage.
So, any ideas? Suggestions? Flames?
Well, it works for some things and, like all rule changes, has consequences elsewhere.
For example, take a level-one dip as a Cleric. Continue putting skill points into the appropriate spellcraft skills and - by the midlevels - you'll be one level behind on (say) fighter progression in exchange for limitless use of a few first-level spells - such as "cure light wounds". Even if you fail a check and take some damage, you can heal that right up. There's no automatic failure on skill rolls, so once you hit higher levels, you can use every low level spell you've got forever.
Once you get to +33 on an appropriate roll - say with high level, a good attribute bonus, a skill enhancing feat or two, and maybe a skill-boosting item - you'll have limitless use of all spells of level nine and below. If you have time to take 10, or a feat or special ability which allows you to do it "under pressure", you'll only need a +24.
If you just want to cast - say - "Heal" without limit out of combat where you can "take 10", you'll need a total of +17 (10 Base + 12 for spell level + 5 for not taking fatigue). Hm. Attribute 18 (+4), you don't acquire the spell until level 11 (+11), throw in +3 from a Feat - you can get unlimited use of Heal - and near-unlimited use of Harm - just as soon as you acquire the spell.
Now, there's nothing wrong with this if you want to really heavily favor casters and multiclassing to casting classes, or if you simply want a magical free-for-all - but you might as well throw out everything thats ever been writen in the way of monsters, settings (why farm when you can create food?), and non-primary spellcaster classes. Forget sorcerers of course: why would anyone want to restrict themselves that way?
Shadowrun works because (1) the mages there are competing with automatic weapons, grenade launchers, and other essentially limitless-use munitions and because "damage" and fatigue there is much harder to get rid of magically.
Systems like this can be made to work, but they'll probably need to be considerably more complicated.
To quote Guybrush Threepwood, Mighty Pirate:
"Hmmmm... Nah."
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Thanks all!
The main thing about splitting the Spellcraft skill into 9 skills gives a limiting factor to casting the spells since the Casters themselves won't have enough ranks to spread among them all. Further limitations could be the established Ability = 10 + spell level to be able to cast the spell. Also, if they have no ranks in that school, then they can't cast that school.
The problem there is that this mildly limits versatility but enormously enhances the number of spells which can be used per day. Limiting a combative wizard to, say, Evocation, Transmutation, and Conjuration really isn't that big a price to trade in for effectively unlimited use of most of his or her spells.
In general, this can't be made easily compatible: spellcasters get new levels of usable spells every two levels - which means that their skills will only have increased by +2. That's not a big enough spread to swamp other bonuses.
If you want to do something like this, try using a DC of 10 + (Spell Level x 5). That way, like Shadowrun, spellcasters can have essentially limitless use of lower-level spells, but powerful ones can only be cast readily by extreme specialists.
Secondarily, since Cure Light Wounds will quickly become available without limit in this system, you'll want to substitute something more long-term for damage. Attribute damage, fatigue and exhaustion, or temporary level drain might work - but regardless of what you choose, you'll have to eliminate any quick-and-easy magical or psionic cures for it.
You could also try staggering the thresholds - 10 + (x2) to successfully cast, x3 to avoid level drain in doing so, x4 to avoid fatigue in doing so, and x5 to avoid damage in doing so - but this would complicate things considerably.
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My main idea behind it is that the `Casters don't roll dice enough and the DC's are somewhat broken in 3.X.I'm on board with your goals mattdroz, but I'm less than enthusiastic about the implementation. I think it is more complicated than necessary and breaks backward compatibility more than it gains from the change.
As for casters not rolling enough, I have looked at the idea of keeping the spell lists and progressions for the casters as is and keeping Spellcraft as a single skill and requiring a Spellcraft roll to cast the spell.
Success means the spell is cast as normal.
Failure means the spell is lost and the caster takes subdual damage equal to the amount they failed by.
Specialist Wizards would gain a +2 for casting spells of their chosen school and a -5 for spells from their opposed schools.
The base DC would be calculated DC=15+spell level*2. [Note: This gives a caster with no Int bonus and max ranks a 40% failure rate for their highest level spells on an average roll of 10]
Casting defensively becomes a modifier to the Spellcraft DC of +4 (canceled out by Combat Casting). [Note: Could be higher than +4 if you don't want Combat Casting to completely negate]The main stumbling block is that it favors Int based casters too heavily. Attempts to balance it out either continue to favor Int casters (caster level based or adding casting stat as bonus) or ends up penalizing them for not having a primary casting stat other than Int (adding only non-Int casting stat as bonus). The only working solution I've had is to substitute the relevant casting stat for Int if higher when making the skill check to cast the spell.
As for the problem with DCs, that is something I've been looking at myself, but have yet to find a solution that I am happy with. Mostly this is due to difficulty in isolating the exact nature of the problem as there are many variables to consider, including the save progressions of both monsters and PC classes.
I don't have too much to add, but this goal has been one of my hopes for a while now. Some Wheel of Time fans have tried to do this for the d20 WoT system. Since the vancian system just didn't mimic the genre very well, some thought was put into skill-based systems. Here's one version that seems to follow mattdroz' attempts by creating separate skills to use in the different talents:
http://sharn-penndroen.tripod.com/WheelofTime/Skill_Based_Channeling.pdf
I like some of the ideas which are similar to the ones presented here. I was thinking that Freesword has the pluses and minuses down right, but if you use a casting DC of 10 + spell level * 5, you get a situation where lower level spells are reasonably cast, but higher level spells get very difficult due to the progression of skills vs progression of DC.
The Skill_Based_Channeling doc had a similar approach to one mentioned in this thread - which was to provide a stackable feat that would alleviate this discrepancy with a bonus to casting based on level.
Anyway, I hope this is some valuable food for thought on the subject.
I like the idea of skill check to cast spells!
Would it help to combine this rule with either the Spell Point or Recharge Magic variants from Unearthed Arcana which would either limit the use of spells per day or limit the rate of magic use??