My group has been playtesting since Alpha 1 was released. Here are the latest two observations based on months of playing.
CMB DIFFICULTIES ARE TOO HIGH EVEN WITH 'IMPROVED -' FEATS.
My players don't want to take the CMB feats because they are too much of a gamble and don't work most of the time. They would rather spend a feat on a 'sure thing' despite the fact all of them like the flavor maneuvers add to combat. Only classes with a full BAB stand to succeed an average of 50% of the time. That is viewed as too risky to waste an entire round on.
I am considering making CMB DC's 12 + CMB
TOO MANY SPELL-LIKE ABILITIES
I never realized how powerful spell-like abilities could be. The fact that there are no components, materials, or invocations of any kind gets through a LOT of loopholes in game mechanics and GREATLY increases PC power level beyond what I think Paizo intended. Enemies no longer have a chance to react to many of the powers that PC's have. Wizards can cast very powerful Spell-like abilities with no chance for opponent counterspells. Nor can readied actions from opponents be used since the effect 'just happens' there is little warning and few counters in the game mechanics for this many varied Spell-like abilities that are being thrown around. I welcome discussion on this second point.
CMB DIFFICULTIES ARE TOO HIGH EVEN WITH 'IMPROVED -' FEATS.
I suspect you're right.
TOO MANY SPELL-LIKE ABILITIES
I never realized how powerful spell-like abilities could be. The fact that there are no components, materials, or invocations of any kind gets through a LOT of loopholes in game mechanics and GREATLY increases PC power level beyond what I think Paizo intended. Enemies no longer have a chance to react to many of the powers that PC's have. Wizards can cast very powerful Spell-like abilities with no chance for opponent counterspells. Nor can readied actions from opponents be used since the effect 'just happens' there is little warning and few counters in the game mechanics for this many varied Spell-like abilities that are being thrown around. I welcome discussion on this second point.
(1) Do people often use counterspelling in your game? I find that a pretty rare occurrence.
(2) It was my understanding that you can still tell something is happening when an opponent uses a spell-like ability (e.g. you can tell they're doing something that requires concentration and that would provoke an attack of opportunity, even if you don't know exactly what it is).
A SLA does have a number of advantages, I agree (kind of like a still, silent spell).
(1) Do people often use counterspelling in your game? I find that a pretty rare occurrence.
(2) It was my understanding that you can still tell something is happening when an opponent uses a spell-like ability (e.g. you can tell they're doing something that requires concentration and that would provoke an attack of opportunity, even if you don't know exactly what it is).
A SLA does have a number of advantages, I agree (kind of like a still, silent spell).
1. Counterspelling isn't nearly as common as I would like to see it. Counterspelling was weak to begin with(hence why few use it) and this has only further weakened it's usefulness.
2. I don't know the exact ruling on whether or not 'you can see something happening' with Spell-like abilities. There is little written on the mechanics of them and that is the problem if they are going to be so affluent. I guess that's the point....if they are going to be common we need updated mechanics on how they work. I'm not even sure if they provoke or not until I do some research.
One of my players has Teleport as a Spell-like ability and it can wreak havoc since it can't be countered or noticed until he uses it. And at that point he can be a thousand miles away.
2. I don't know the exact ruling on whether or not 'you can see something happening' with Spell-like abilities. There is little written on the mechanics of them and that is the problem if they are going to be so affluent. I guess that's the point....if they are going to be common we need updated mechanics on how they work. I'm not even sure if they provoke or not until I do some research.One of my players has Teleport as a Spell-like ability and it can wreak havoc since it can't be countered or noticed until he uses it. And at that point he can be a thousand miles away.
While true you can't counter spell a Spell-like ability in all other ways it works exactly like a spell. So it produces an AoO and others can ready an action against it also. It takes just as long to cast as the spell of the same name. Its a spell that does not worry about Armor or require material components and so far does not seem to powerful in my games.
See the SRD linked here or the DMG for full info on Sp.
See the SRD linked here or the DMG for full info on Sp.
I guess they were never common enough in my game before now to look up all the rules in regards to them. Thanks for the link. I hope Paizo includes some rules on them in the Beta for easy reference.
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I guess they were never common enough in my game before now to look up all the rules in regards to them. Thanks for the link. I hope Paizo includes some rules on them in the Beta for easy reference.
See the SRD linked here or the DMG for full info on Sp.
You're just bitter because I escaped your big nasty demon and you couldn't do jack about it ^____^
I agree about counterspelling being sort of weaksauce though. As things in 3.5 stand, you've got to jack yourself up with some buff spells to improve counterspelling to make it worth the delay.
Oh, I'm also not all that worried about the CMB thing being set at 15. That actually seems like a fair number. When we were back in my campaign it worked out pretty well.
That being said, the +2 bonus you get for the feats may be the part that's too low. I'm still not sure.
I guess they were never common enough in my game before now to look up all the rules in regards to them. Thanks for the link. I hope Paizo includes some rules on them in the Beta for easy reference.
See the SRD linked here or the DMG for full info on Sp.You're just bitter because I escaped your big nasty demon and you couldn't do jack about it ^____^
I agree about counterspelling being sort of weaksauce though. As things in 3.5 stand, you've got to jack yourself up with some buff spells to improve counterspelling to make it worth the delay.
Oh, I'm also not all that worried about the CMB thing being set at 15. That actually seems like a fair number. When we were back in my campaign it worked out pretty well.
That being said, the +2 bonus you get for the feats may be the part that's too low. I'm still not sure.
Actually I'm not bitter about the demon thing. I'm glad it ended that scene before I dropped from exhaustion. I like it when you guys surprise me.
Although had I been technical about it I could have looked it up and realized that a Spell-like ability takes the same amount of time as a spell and provokes AND allows for readied actions which the demon probably would have had. But that would probably have been the end of you.
the cmb does seem like too much of a lottery. Improved trip was a much too powerful ability in the old books because you could just keep doing it until the enemy squished but I think the new version is almost too weak. I had a20 strength fighter trying to do manouvers on goblins to see how well it worked and even then he didn't get as many successes as he probably should have. I think it should be a resisted roll.
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I guess they were never common enough in my game before now to look up all the rules in regards to them. Thanks for the link. I hope Paizo includes some rules on them in the Beta for easy reference.
See the SRD linked here or the DMG for full info on Sp.You're just bitter because I escaped your big nasty demon and you couldn't do jack about it ^____^
I agree about counterspelling being sort of weaksauce though. As things in 3.5 stand, you've got to jack yourself up with some buff spells to improve counterspelling to make it worth the delay.
Oh, I'm also not all that worried about the CMB thing being set at 15. That actually seems like a fair number. When we were back in my campaign it worked out pretty well.
That being said, the +2 bonus you get for the feats may be the part that's too low. I'm still not sure.
Actually I'm not bitter about the demon thing. I'm glad it ended that scene before I dropped from exhaustion. I like it when you guys surprise me.
Although had I been technical about it I could have looked it up and realized that a Spell-like ability takes the same amount of time as a spell and provokes AND allows for readied actions which the demon probably would have had. But that would probably have been the end of you.
You don't scare me. ^_^
Well, ok, maybe a little.
I'm still pretty sure I could have gotten out of there even if he saw it coming.