[Publishers] Chris Pramas: "Green Ronin will not be signing the Game System License (GSL) at this time."


4th Edition

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see wrote:
Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
Have you seen anything like open gaming for the Shadowrun IP? How about Gurps or World of Darkness? I could go on but you get the idea.
Well, let's see. RuneQuest and Traveller have been released under the OGL itself. Next question?

I don't suggest you try and publish a Traveller module for money without their permission - that will likely get you into legal hot water. They can play in their world under the OGL. You not so much.

Dark Archive

(I'm going to be lazy here and copy some text from posts I made in other threads, regarding the OGL vs GSL, since it's entirely pertinent, and I don't feel like rewriting it entirely - apologies)

D&D is now the leading RPG, and I tend to think that this is one of the things driving WoTC to implement the switch from OGL to GSL.

However, looking back at the history of D&D, it also occurs to me that D&D was originally the pinnacle and leader of the RPG industry. It was the first game that went into mass publication, and was the one that everyone originally played. Many of the first RPGs that followed copied or emulated it quite closely, and only over time did they start to evolve into significantly different games. The proprietary nature of the D&D rules didn't prevent D&D from losing its luster, though, and moving from emulated leader to derided old has-been.

It's entirely anecdotal evidence, but from what I've seen, 3.x did vastly better vis-a-vis competing systems than 2nd Edition did. The OGL certainly was not solely responsible for this, but it in no way hurt them. Under 2nd Edition, D&D was a game that most of the serious gamers I knew looked down on, and sought better systems. Conversely, the OGL made D&D the center of the RPG universe under 3.x. Even if you weren't playing D&D, you were still basically playing their game.

I could repeat my full explanation from the post I made previously on why I think that is, but I don't want to belabor the point.

Personally, I find the switch in the tone from OGL to GSL fascinating. It strikes me as a huge mistake, honestly. Instead of the vast majority of gamers playing by the rules they set as the industry standard, we will instead return a mixture of competing proprietary rules and people still using d20/OGL stuff. Not everyone is going to play D&D, all the time. By making your system proprietary, you just increase the odds that people will say "eh, I don't need those, I'm not that likely to ever use them."

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
I don't suggest you try and publish a Traveller module for money without their permission - that will likely get you into legal hot water. They can play in their world under the OGL. You not so much.

Link to the Traveller Developers Pack from Mongoose. Traveller is OGL. You're allowed to publish adventures, campaign settings, worlds, races, etc. What you can't touch is the OTU setting. So its just like Pathfinder, 3.5, True20, etc. You can't touch Golarian, Faerun, Freeport, etc, but you can use the systems made by each company.


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
WotC obviously does not believe that they made a good move with the OGL. More telling evidence is that a lot of smaller publishers with good IPs watched what took place with Wizards and Dungeons and Dragons. Have you seen anything like open gaming for the Shadowrun IP? How about Gurps or World of Darkness?

For Shadowrun, I doubt there's a huge DEMAND for an OGL version of the mechanics. It's not that you couldn't do it anyway, mind you. Few have really tried to clone Shadowrun for anything ELSE.

GURPS? Why bother? GURPS is so deluged with sourcebooks that it's pretty much silly to make an ADDITIONAL crunch-book for it. Everything's already there.

It's like, no one copies the game of "Life" really for their own games. Oh, they could.. but, really, the market wants MONOPOLY clones... so that's what people are going to fill.


DMcCoy1693 wrote:
I think this is the longest I've seen him not post.

He and I talked a little bit on WotC's board under the GSL stuff. While I don't want to speak for him, let's just say that's he's exceptionally pissed off - and apparently at WotC. So much so that everything's on hold all over again.

Dark Archive

vance wrote:
DMcCoy1693 wrote:
I think this is the longest I've seen him not post.

He and I talked a little bit on WotC's board under the GSL stuff. While I don't want to speak for him, let's just say that's he's exceptionally pissed off - and apparently at WotC. So much so that everything's on hold all over again.

Pure speculation, but I'll be he's in deep discussion with Kenzer, who's a fellow lawyer, about his options.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

vance wrote:
DMcCoy1693 wrote:
I think this is the longest I've seen him not post.
He and I talked a little bit on WotC's board under the GSL stuff. While I don't want to speak for him, let's just say that's he's exceptionally pissed off - and apparently at WotC. So much so that everything's on hold all over again.

I thought something like this would happen. Clark was Wizards' biggest cheerleader. He was referring to 4E as "open" long after Wizards stopped. "... harder they fall," and all that.

Do you have a link to any of the threads?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Dragnmoon wrote:
And There is a version of the World of Darkness D20... most of it I am sure is not Open..

Actually, the WW trademarks are closed, but the system is quite open. Mix in a few d20 normals for flavour/fodder and you've the Dresdenverse.

Not much different than the phb vs the srd.

Grand Lodge

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When 3.5 first came out I really disliked it because people stopped making noncompatible products.The ogl made everyone convert to the d20 system.3.5 wasnt bad far from the worst system I ever played but some settings(wod,earthdawn)dont work well with d20.Then Pathfinder came along and fixed everything i hated about 3.5.If wotc hasbro hadnt made 4th edition paizo likely wouldnt have made their own game.So I would like to thank you WOTC for your accidental creation of my all time favorite rpg.


How many onyx gems does it take to necro an almost 4 year old thread.


Me or him?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

All right, all right, I've deleted that post. But don't tell me I didn't warn you!


Cheers! And warning noted. ;) I've deleted my own post since it looked pretty silly then.

And don't worry, it wasn't addressed to you Talonhawke.

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