What is the Dungeon Master?


Alpha Playtest Feedback General Discussion


I've grown up and often thought about this question after several times being a player and not enjoying the experience as much as being the Dungeon Master. The things I think I love most about being a DM are...

1. Playing multiple characters, changing often
2. Being the guy throwing rocks/traps/goblins/various challenges at others.
3. Feeling like you always get to look behind the curtain while seeing the reaction of people to events occurring on stage.

So in thinking about this more and noticing how the shift in the role of the Dungeon Master with 4th Edition is that of Player Monster/Monster Manager/Guy who runs encounters rather than a storyteller.

I feel like being a storyteller/writer/actor is a big barrier to entry to playing roleplaying games and WotC is directing the game in a new direction to counteract that.

So I pose the question, which aspect/role/quality of being a Dungeon Master is the most difficult? In terms of running the game should rules be introduced to minimize this aspect with Pathfinder?

Scarab Sages

Well, personally I find the most difficult part is sticking to my guns and not catering to the players whenever they want (after all, it is easy to get suckered in when the fighter shrieks with joy over his new +5 greatsword).

But realistically, if Paizo could help new DMs with one thing (and this is something they would be good at) I would say playing multiple characters

The best DMs I have had didn't need to know many rules, but they could roleplay and entire courtroom scene single-handedly.

On the flip side, the worst DMs just read the box-text from the book, and would not deviate from the scripted character actions. Ugh. I recall once, the DM had an NPC we just saved talking to a major NPC Leader whose kingdom we just saved. My character wanted to engage them in coversation, and the DM just said "they have nothing to say to you".

Paizo would be great at coming up with suggestions on how to keep track of NPC thought processes, a few tropes on stock fantasy personalities, maybe even how to use the numbers in a statblock to roleplay.

Eg. Alertness...you notice this person constantly darts their eyes about, their head cocked to one side as if listening expectantly for something.


Being a good DM is a very very hard, and often unrewarding position. It really needs to be a labor of love.

To be a "good" DM you need to be able to tell a story. It has to be a story the PC's are not only participating in, but are the main characters in. You have to be able to lead them along while keeping them interested, without overpowering the group as they go along. (too much carrot, not enough stick). You have to be willing to "be the badguy" sometimes, by telling players they can't do things, or that they don't know some things.
Often the hardest part is getting together with good friends and refusing to answer some of their quesstions. Lets face it- the PC's want to know everything, but for the good of most campaigns some information is best withheld until later.

They also have to walk the very thin line between "handling the monsters" and being "against the players". For most campaigns- the job of the DM is not to annihilate the players, it's to give them appropriately difficult challenges so that their life is on the line but still giving them a chance to survive. The DM can't come across as antagonistic to the players either though- the Game just isn't setup that way.
(the DM has all the power. He wins when he wants to. If he's playing to win, then he just wins. No combat necessary.)

The DM is all these things while also being a player in the game. The Dm WANTS to have fun, and when the DM isn't having fun then it's just as serious an issue as when it's a player who's bored with the campaign.

Its a tough, thankless job that thankfully a few people step up to handle, so that the rest of us can play out our little rp characters as they level up and grow.

-S

Scarab Sages

Selgard wrote:


Often the hardest part is getting together with good friends and refusing to answer some of their quesstions. Lets face it- the PC's want to know everything, but for the good of most campaigns some information is best withheld until later.

I absolutely can't stand it when players press for information. Like a monster will do something, and the player says "that isn't possible" and the DM says "yes, it is, don't ask me...", "How?" "Because it is." "Why?" "You failed your knowledge check, you don't know!" "Oh."

After the battle. "So how did the monster do that thing it did?"
::FOREHEAD-SMACK::

Liberty's Edge

Jal Dorak wrote:

I absolutely can't stand it when players press for information. Like a monster will do something, and the player says "that isn't possible" and the DM says "yes, it is, don't ask me...", "How?" "Because it is." "Why?" "You failed your knowledge check, you don't know!" "Oh."

After the battle. "So how did the monster do that thing it did?"
::FOREHEAD-SMACK::

I get this a lot and it definitely is frustrating. Typically my players will find an item and want to know 'out-of-game' what it is. My typical reply is a shrug and "I don't know."

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think he's a gnome.

Liberty's Edge

The Dungeon Master is An artist painting a picture for the players to have fun on.

Its an act of love to want the PC's to have a challenging adventure that will let them explore the depths of their own character and be taken to edge of their capabilities without letting your own ego turning the game from being centered on the players to centered on the game.

A Dungeon Master is NOT a Referree. He's a Bit Player.
A Dungeon Master is NOT an omniscient being. He's a Storyteller.
A Dungeon Master is NOT a Winner unless the players win...barely.

The Thespian Creed is perfect for a Dungeon Master...."Act Well Your Part, for therein All The Honor Lies"

my 2 cents.


Well I'm a GM not DM. I make the distiction of the two as one will play and run almost any game. The other will only play DND, and sadly it has been my experince that they are rules lawyers, or ever worse house rules lawyer, or even worse all that and lawyers who keep the law to themselves just to give themselves an edge. In my first game with my sorcerer I asked what spell resistance was, I was asked if I had SR? I said no, "then you don't have to know or worry about it." Sadly the lay out of the PHB wasn't very helpful to finding these rules. Running more then my share of games I get were that DM was coming from somewhat, to do the job well you have to know far too much, be willing to make up rules on the fly ect ect. If anything this makes 4th a much easier game for DMs, but I think somehow being able to have everything so easy and ready for on the fly games will overall have a negative effect. What makes it fun is all the work, thinking out how the game session will play out.

The seconed worse part are Players who aren't bad in the sense that they want to ruin the game, but bad in the sense that they just get under your skin. I had one player who said this game is far too complex, complin complain complain, then asks if I couldn't do all the updating of his character. I shot back because I got to play my npcs, monsters, and all the other SH**! I sometimes players ruin a game when they enjoy it but they are just there to kill something.

So why do all this, because it so worth it when it comes together. Good story, good advantures, good frineds, good memories. You'll only understand this magic when your at a party or get together that has nothing to do with the game and some makes a comment like "remember when we had to save that baby orc form a dragon, and you triped over the...." everyone not in the game will look at you as if your all nuts, but its so worth it. Or when I was in college and we had a Rifts game that ended up lasting five and half years drew in new players at lest once a month, and an audiace who listend in like it was a soap opera. Our characters became real if only for a few shinny moments. Thats what makes it all worth it.

The Exchange

What is the Dungeon Master?

That is an excellent question.


I agree with a lot of what is said here. The best DMs (and GMs) are storytellers and actors of multiple characters.

However, there are many players who want to be able to play a game with rules that are applied and interpreted consistently. A good DM also plays fair with the rules. Good tabletop management might include ruling on it now and revisiting later, or delegating someone else to look it up while keeping the action moving, or all sorts of other good ideas. A good DM also knows when to bend or break those same rules (generally without telling the players).

You know a good DM when you see one. Just like players, they have different styles.


I guess nobody made it to the second part of my question...

Is there anything the Pathfinder rules should do to make it easier to DMs/GMs to run the game?

In other words, the simplification that comes with 4e helps DMs, limits PCs. Given that the DM is only 1 out of 5 (on average) players at the table, that may seem unbalanced. But if you look at the DM as 50%-80% of the content of the game as it is played, then that matters a lot more.

Should the DM rely on electronic tools (in or out of game) to help manage encounters in place of simplifying the game? Does this take away from being a storyteller and make the DM spend more time (too much time?) on monster management?

Liberty's Edge

veector wrote:


So I pose the question, which aspect/role/quality of being a Dungeon Master is the most difficult? In terms of running the game should rules be introduced to minimize this aspect with Pathfinder?

In answer to your second question...

None are more important than any other, all share equally. A Good DM has to be all things to all players.

The best thing that Paizo can do to make it easy, is to have easy to find reference tables and charts.

Or a perfectly awesome easy to read DM Shield.

Ive bought every DM Shield ever produced for D&D, and half the time they do not have what I need on them. The best one was the one I made myself, using AD&D's 2 shield's and photocopying the needed tables out of the players handbook and DM's guide and super glueing them in place.

When running a game, if I need to look something up, I need to do it quickly and efficiently.

Liberty's Edge

* Master of ceremonies (spawning enthusiasm, command of timing and entertaining in description)
* Storyteller and ham
* Organizer and gatherer

Among other things.

-DM Jeff

Dark Archive Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games

The Dungeon Master is the center of the game. A DM is responsible for making sure everyone enjoys the gaming session. Good DMs take this responsibility very seriously.

A good DM is responsible for providing the adventure and campaign setting, assisting players with character creation by providing details about the campaign setting, running memorable encounters (both combat and non-combat), role-playing a variety of NPCs and monsters, implementing and enforcing the rules, and presenting challenges to the players that are difficult to accomplish - but not so difficult as to be frustrating or so easy that players become bored.

(Yes, that's quite a run on sentence, but it's all true).

A player's experience with D&D (or any RPG) relies quite a bit on the DM.

Good DMs = Fun and memorable experiences.
Bad DMs = Frustrating sessions.

I find that preparation is the most important part of being a good DM. I find the preparation for a gaming session to be as much fun as actually running the game. However, this may not be true for others. In any case, some degree of preparation is necessary to make sure the gaming session runs smoothly for everyone.

A fear of preparation should not dissuade anyone from trying to DM for the first time, though. The key to DMing lies in the ability to prepare sufficiently for the gaming session, while also being flexible enough to adapt to the unpredictable ideas and actions players come up with during the session. A good DM should always be willing to listen to the players, and make rulings that take the player's opinions into account. If you have to make an unpopular ruling for the good of the gaming session, share your reasoning with your players. The players may not agree with your ruling, but they are more likely to accept it if you explain your reasoning to them.

I feel for that poster who indicated that all of his experiences with DMs consisted of rules lawyers and people who were unwilling to share their knowledge of the rules with the players. The best gaming sessions occur when the DM and players cooperate to make the game fun for everyone. DMs who set themselve above the players and attempt to "beat" them end up making the sessions more frustrating for everyone involved.

As for the second part of the OP's question: What can be done to make DMing easier for the Pathfinder RPG? That's difficult to answer.

The most important things to me as a DM are detailed campaign/adventure information and being able to quickly and easily look up information when it is needed. (Paizo is very good at providing both of these).

I have tried quite a few different pre-packaged DM Tools designed to make DMing easier, and very few have worked for me.

My preparation consists mainly of plot and encounter outlines, highlighters (for published adventures), and pages of notes regarding prominent NPCs. I have discovered that this preparation style is not conducive to generic pre-packaged products, so I have given up trying to find DM Tools to assist me with preparation.

As for in-game tools, I tend to use the rule books quite heavily when I need to look up a rule, which is where the ability to locate information quickly is vitally important.

So, after all of that, my suggestion to make DMing easier is to make sure the rules are easy to locate in the Pathfinder rule book. This includes providing an index to main topics, a glossary for key terms, and a well thought out order of topics during the creation process.

(Sorry for rambling, but I wanted to make sure to cover all of the OP's questions).

Liberty's Edge

Conceptually, the DM is kinda like a 3.5 bard. Part storyteller, part diplomat. There to give the players a boost or help find solutions to the riddle that has them vexed. But in the end not really part of the story, just an interested observer who can nudge the PCs along from time to time. Of course the DM has no armor restrictions.

Sure, DMs have to be actors but almost every player I have ever had at my table was an actor before they every looked at a character sheet. Acting is part of the game but few actors can pull off the cast of thousands bit well. I struggle with it after 24 years as a GM. Running an NPC heavy game like a court intrigue or town adventure is like putting on a one man show with a new script every week. A good DM can flip from NPC to NPC without breaking stride and somehow let the PC know who is not talking without having to say. Every NPC has to be unique enough to stand without introduction.

DMs are storytellers but not every storyteller is a good DM. A good DM has no ego. They have to be willing to tell the story that the players want told not the story he wants to tell.

A good DM has to be able to hold ultimate power and choose not to wield it. In D&D the DM has the ultimate weapon, he controls the odds of the game. He has to play to win but hope to loose. It isn't easy. I figure most people here have been a DM but have we ever sat back and thought about how unnatural it is to lay out a battle plan that give the players a chance when you control the terrain, the number and strength of the troops arrayed against them. With those advantages you have to work to not wipe them out. But the only way to continue the game is to "make it fair" and sometimes that means doing less than your best.

Can Pathfinder make the DM's job easier? Perhaps. Being a Good DM isn't about the rules. It is about learning the rules. If the rules are concise and easy to remember they make it easier to DM. Mechanics are less an issue than the brevity and organization of them. I have only run one game of 4.0 and I don't find it any easier to DM but I can't stand the way the book is laid out. Ask me again about 3P when the Beta arrives.

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