Is it fair to say that any 3.5e LA+1 race can be considered LA0 in pathfinder ?
and by that reasoning any LA+2 would be a +1 ? or is that a little too simplistic ?
Also if LA1 are now LA0 would that also translate into templates that can be added to new base classes and give an LA of 1 would still give an LA of 1 ? but a template added to an old LA 0 base class would be LA 0 ?
And what about Monterous races with racial Hit Dice ? Do racial HD still count as full levels under pathfinder ?
And the reason I ask is that its been stated Pathfinder is backward compatible with 3.5 I just wanna know how compatible :)
Thanks
I would say that the LA +1 races that I've looked at after seeing Pathfinder Alpha are still more powerful than the base races in the Alpha. I would suggest against an across the board lowering of LA. That would just add a bunch of races that would be just better than the base races.
I would say that the LA +1 races that I've looked at after seeing Pathfinder Alpha are still more powerful than the base races in the Alpha. I would suggest against an across the board lowering of LA. That would just add a bunch of races that would be just better than the base races.
Hrmm so in effect you really can't use LA+1 races from 3.5e because they've fallen into a LA+0.5 zone where there ability arn't good enough for a pathfinder +1 but are too good vs pathfinder base classes.
So case by case basis or simply rule out non core races until we get a pathfinder supplement of them assuming you need to stick with RAW ?
I think the LA +1 I've seen recently would still work just as well as race options.
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I think Pathfinder core races have been designed to compare favourably to more recent LA+0 races, such as those found in Races of the Wild and similar books, eg Raptorans are a LA+0 race that gain limited Flight at 5th level.
I don't think Pathfinder core races are intended to be LA+1 races.
However, it would be good if Paizo could provide some designer insight on this subject.
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I think that you could probably just remove a -2 stat penalty that a 3.5 LA +x race has and you're now equivalent to the same LA +x in PRPG.
Of course, I'm kinda tired and may have totally gapped on something else that was pretty standard across the board for the races and the changes that they underwent for PRPG.
I'm with the crowd here - Dropping LA across the board would completely undo the entire point of giving the core races a slight boost - evening them out with the rest.
Also - even if you do drop racial LA's, DO NOT drop Template LA's. That's because it still gives the same *add-on* bonus. You still get the base race stats when you add the template. So while Half-Fiend 3.5 Human might be a bit less than normal LA vs. a Pathfinder Human, a Half-Fiend Pathfinder Human would be the same LA.
Heh was just thinking one day somone with waaay to much time on their ahdsn will do a Master of Orion style of race customization, where every possible racial trait and ability is worth x pts and worth x+y points when taken with certain other trait combinations in one grand all encompassing custom race builder 100pts to make a race. 200pts for and LA+1, 300pts LA+2 etc etc etc
Finally putting an end to the "ok would darkness 3/day push it over the LA threshold ? "
Or maybe save ourselves an assload of trouble and go ok +2 to 2 stats and -2 to another regardless of race ;) , Halfling Paladin ? why the hell not hehehe
It's been done. There are a selection of races here: http://www.box.net/shared/trssk26sco
I believe that .pdf crosslinks to the full shareware rules.
I would say that the LA +1 races that I've looked at after seeing Pathfinder Alpha are still more powerful than the base races in the Alpha. I would suggest against an across the board lowering of LA. That would just add a bunch of races that would be just better than the base races.
I disagree, in some cases, quite strongly. 3.5 Aasimar (especially) and Tieflings are barely worth the +1 LA in core. In Pathfinder they are quite on par with the core LA zero races.
Half Giants, even with powerful build, are also fairly close to being more LA +0 than LA +1.
Granted, anything with racial hit dice is totally inappropriate for LA 0, as are Dromites and Druegar.
Neither dromites or duergar have racial Hit Dice, do they?
Theoretically, a LA+0 race with racial HD could exist, but its racial HD would have to be worse than levels in a player class. I recall WOTC boards had an argument on the issue sometime.
Is it fair to say that any 3.5e LA+1 race can be considered LA0 in pathfinder ?
and by that reasoning any LA+2 would be a +1 ? or is that a little too simplistic ?
I don't agree in general, but certain LA +1 races could be reduced to +0 (like aasimar, tieflings, hobgoblins and blues [psionic goblins]).
In my playtests, one guy played a tiefling at LA+0. The only change was giving them a choice of two favored classes (rogue and wizard), and it didn't seem to creaet a balance problem at all.
I'm sure there are LA+1 races somewhere that aren't balanced with the Pathfinder base races, but I'm not sure what they are. I keep thinking of races like genasi, which should be pretty balanced with the new pathfinder base races.
In my 3.x campaign, I'd started using optional rules for reducing level adjustments to good effect. You could tweak those rule for partial levels - such as letting a "LA +0.5" race buy off the LA at second level instead of third.
Has anyone else thought of making LA +1 races use the next slower XP chart (Medium instead of Fast, etc.)? This would be a rather elegant solution with the same result as normal, unless the group is already using the Slow chart - then would have to multiply it all by 1.5.
I would say that the LA +1 races that I've looked at after seeing Pathfinder Alpha are still more powerful than the base races in the Alpha. I would suggest against an across the board lowering of LA. That would just add a bunch of races that would be just better than the base races.I disagree, in some cases, quite strongly. 3.5 Aasimar (especially) and Tieflings are barely worth the +1 LA in core. In Pathfinder they are quite on par with the core LA zero races.
Half Giants, even with powerful build, are also fairly close to being more LA +0 than LA +1.
Granted, anything with racial hit dice is totally inappropriate for LA 0, as are Dromites and Druegar.
Aasimar and Tieflings are still more powerful (a spell-like ability and energy resistances might not be much, but they are still more than what base races get) than the Pathfinder base races. Lowering them to LA +0 without dropping their power would be a bad choice. It makes the planetouched the most powerful choices for races.
This is not to say that the planetouched are not really good LA +1 races, I just think they make worse LA +0 races.
"And it will be, I assure you forum-goers. We have top men working on it right now."
"Top. Men."
Aasimar and Tieflings are still more powerful (a spell-like ability and energy resistances might not be much, but they are still more than what base races get) than the Pathfinder base races. Lowering them to LA +0 without dropping their power would be a bad choice. It makes the planetouched the most powerful choices for races.This is not to say that the planetouched are not really good LA +1 races, I just think they make worse LA +0 races.
Agreed, I have a player about to enter my current Pathfinder game as an Aasimar. I am using the following stats. Some will hate the +1's but I wanted to keep it as close to the 3.5 version as possible.
Pathfinder Aasimar:
+1 Wisdom, +1 Charisma
Medium sized
Aasimar base speed is 30ft.
Acid, cold, electricity resistance 5.
Light (Sp): Aasimar can use light once per day as cast by a sorcerer of their character level.
+2 Racial bonus on Perception
Darkvision 60ft.
Outsider: Aasimar are native outsiders.
Favoured class: Paladin
LA +0
Some of the +1 classes could certainly be +0, while others should probably stay +1 (maybe with a bit of adjustment). This is something I hope to look into over the coming months.
I've always noticed this even before Pathfinder came out. Many of the LA+1 races seemed way more powerful than other LA+1 races. I think a lot of this has to do with "sacred favorites" of certain settings. Aasimar always seem to be a staple of FR ... which I feel is overpowered. Since (IIRC) they were +1 in FR, they just became +1 for everyone. But then again, an aasimar is by no means on equal footing as a hobgoblin, who is LA+1 with almost no real benefits. Aasiamr and their evil kin the teifling probably always should have been at least +2 or more.
Knowing that Paizo is looking at these during their revisions is very promising. Let me know what you plan on doing with the Lizardfolk ... my namesake character would like to know. ;-)
Is it fair to say that any 3.5e LA+1 race can be considered LA0 in pathfinder ?
and by that reasoning any LA+2 would be a +1 ? or is that a little too simplistic ?
I think that's far too simplistic. The PC races got a boost but I don't think enough to merit +1 LA under core. Well then again there aren't a lot of core races with mental stat boosts so it could be.
In general though under 3.5 LA +1 is a huge window with some LA+1s being marginal +0 and some really belonging under LA+2. The ones I saw that got the biggest shaft are the ones that got monster levels and LA+.
It's definitely a case by case thing and outside core you are on your own.
Pathfinder is backward compatible for the most part with the SRD and the Adventure Path modules that Paizo had published before. Assessing compatibility with badly written and unbalanced splat book material is an exercise in madness.
I say do what I've been doing for years ... ignore the crappy broken splat books. They don't exist.
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Templates level adjustments, as a rule, should be left alone and probably raised. Some of the most abominable broken characters I have ever seen were the products of some judiciously placed templates.
As to the small, underpowered races... is there anything at all that can be done for kobolds and the like without changing their core stat adjustments? Maybe some kind of inherent teamwork bonuses, like better flanking and aid another bonuses? Something that offsets that huge strength penalty without removing the flavor it comes with--kobolds as physically weak but imposing in numbers.
Alright, They both have 2 +2 bonuses, and a -2 penalty to CHA. Tieflings pick up a 1/day darkness SLA, and energy resist 5 to fire, cold, and electricity. The Dwarf picks up some weapon proficiencies, +2 on saves against ALL Spells, and SLAs, and some other junk. The +2 to saves against Spells and SLA is alot better than the simple energy resistance, as a single save against say a fireball, may in up saving the dwarf from taking more damage than the Tiefling's energy resistance will ever save the Tiefling from taking. Plus, it just doesn't work on damage spells, but every spell that offers a save, meaning that at +2 to saves against spells and SLA will come up far more often than the energy resistance will come up.
And don't say that the outsider type weighs so much that it alone requires a +1 LA. Looking through the SRD, the only spells that don't effect tieflings because they're outsider are: Reduce Person, Enlarge Person, Daze, Charm Person, Dominate Person, and Ghoul Touch. Thats it. Of them, the only two that are a big deal are Charm Person and Dominate Person, and immunity to 2 spells is not worth +1LA give that its more then counter balanced by the spells that effect outsiders.
The tiefling's weapon proficiencies (because of the outsider type) a bit better than the puny dwarven proficiencies. Also, their base speed is 30 feet which is better than the dwarves when not encumbered or significantly armored.
While I wouldn't say that level one tiefling is as powerful as a level two dwarf. I would say that their energy resistances and spell-like ability make them slightly stronger than a dwarf at low levels if there is no level adjustment. Since the dwarf is generally the strongest of the base races, if something is better than the dwarf, if even slightly, then there is a problem.
At later levels there would be less of a problem, but I'm concerned about early levels rather than later levels.
I'll say that as a general rule, you can lower LA by 1 in Pathfinder. But it is really a case by case basis, as some races (and templates) are better/more powerful than others.
I posted this before, which is the races I think need to be +0 LA. (Ignoring racial HD)
Duergar, Gnolls, Hobgoblins, Lizardfolk, Locathah, Merfolk, Tieflings, and Aasimiar*.
*Aasimiar need a -2 stat, and I would give them -2 con.
Races that need a boost:
Goblins, Kobolds, and Orcs.
Ah great! I was just about to ask about lizardfolk. Any thoughts about Drow?
like SR (yes, SR hurts PCs more then it helps)
No, it doesn't. Oh, it's annoying as hell when you need healing NOW but it has a tendency to prevent more damage than it prevents healing.
You are aware the SR can be voluntarily lowered as a standard action, right? So all the buffing and healing outside of combat still happens.
SR is a mixed blessing, but it's still a blessing. Take a look at Monks. They get SR as a class feature. You don't get DRAWBACKS as a class feature. Except illiteracy.
Neither dromites or duergar have racial Hit Dice, do they?
Theoretically, a LA+0 race with racial HD could exist, but its racial HD would have to be worse than levels in a player class. I recall WOTC boards had an argument on the issue sometime.
Don't confuse LA and ECL (despite the fact that they are confusing concepts).
It's perfectly possible that a race with racial HD would have a 0 LA. It's just that it's ECL will still be equal to its hit dice. Now, if those HD sucked enough, maybe you could get a negative LA to cancel them out. But I doubt it, because then Kobolds would probably get a negative LA.
The thing is as soon as level 2, that +2 to saves will begin to overcome the energy resistance. When confronted with a fireball even at level 5, I rather have a +2 to my save then fire resistance 5. A sucessful save will save me 9 HP vs the 5 that fire resistance will. I not saying that the energy resistance isn't useful, but I wouldn't say that it better then what the PHB races get.
But it should be noted that the energy resistance does work better for spells with no saves or just attacks that deal energy damage.
It should also be noted that that +2 to saves will only save that 9 HP, on average, 10% of the time, otherwise it changes nothing. The 5 fire resistance always works*. For a good while I think that energy resistance is better for protection against that energy spell (at some point the +2 to saves would be better). Just to note, the +2 to saves would affect all spells while the energy resistance would only help against that type of energy damage.
At the lower levels I will say that these abilities are more powerful. Higher than that they even out, and even higher than that the extra spell and energy resistance are worth less than the +2 bonus against spells.
* Not always.
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Aasimar and Tieflings are still more powerful (a spell-like ability and energy resistances might not be much, but they are still more than what base races get) than the Pathfinder base races. Lowering them to LA +0 without dropping their power would be a bad choice. It makes the planetouched the most powerful choices for races.This is not to say that the planetouched are not really good LA +1 races, I just think they make worse LA +0 races.
Agreed, I have a player about to enter my current Pathfinder game as an Aasimar. I am using the following stats. Some will hate the +1's but I wanted to keep it as close to the 3.5 version as possible.
Pathfinder Aasimar:
+1 Wisdom, +1 Charisma
Medium sized
Aasimar base speed is 30ft.
Acid, cold, electricity resistance 5.
Light (Sp): Aasimar can use light once per day as cast by a sorcerer of their character level.
+2 Racial bonus on Perception
Darkvision 60ft.
Outsider: Aasimar are native outsiders.
Favoured class: Paladin
LA +0
I would still give the Aasimar +2 to WIS and CHA, and keep them as a LA+1 race. I'm going to use a Tiefling Wizard as a BBEG (in fact in the next session) and after thinking about it for a while, I'm not going to lower his LA to +0, because he still gets those resistances and the ability to cast Darkness.