apologies if my eyes have failed me......
Reading thru the feat list I couldn't find it, but it is listed under a Divine Caster NPC list of feats.
Has it been nuked in Pathfinder?
Director of Games
|
apologies if my eyes have failed me......
Reading thru the feat list I couldn't find it, but it is listed under a Divine Caster NPC list of feats.
Has it been nuked in Pathfinder?
It is not in Alpha release 3 because it has not been changed. It is in the Beta Playtest Edition due out next month.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
apologies if my eyes have failed me......
Reading thru the feat list I couldn't find it, but it is listed under a Divine Caster NPC list of feats.
Has it been nuked in Pathfinder?
It is not in Alpha release 3 because it has not been changed. It is in the Beta Playtest Edition due out next month.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Cool. Thx!
It is not in Alpha release 3 because it has not been changed.
Durn. It's cool that it stays, but I was hoping to see it nerfed a little bit (like spells requiring a slot one level higher while cast via Natural Spell, for instance). Getting to be a freaky wildshape fiend as well as a full caster is just too good IMO.
Durn. It's cool that it stays, but I was hoping to see it nerfed a little bit (like spells requiring a slot one level higher while cast via Natural Spell, for instance). Getting to be a freaky wildshape fiend as well as a full caster is just too good IMO.
I don't think it's quite so bad since Wild Shape got nerfed...although flying around as an air elemental is pretty good, I guess!
Made it a metamagic feat in 3.5. After all, it basically is silent spell + still spell for druids, with no spell level adjustment. That struck us as being a bit wanky.
I also violates FSBNNR. Making it metamagic w/ +1 spell slot is good way to combat this
fsbnnr?
fsbnnr?
Oh, sorry: "Feats Should Be Nice, Not Required." Basically, if you need a feat to make your class worthwhile, or if there is a feat which everyone who plays your class will take, there is a problem.
There are only two types of druids who wouldn't snatch up Natural Spell as soon as they get Wildeshape: those who don't use their spellcasting, and those who don't Wildshape, and I seriously doubt any of either sort of druid exists, at least in any appreciable showing.
You are right, it should not be a feat.
It should be a class feature. And to make it less powerful have a list of spells that can be cast using that feature. Maybe ban all evocation and necromancy spells (except for healing ones)?
That way we do not get anymore little birdies singing in the trees while lightnings and flames fall all around.
There are only two types of druids who wouldn't snatch up Natural Spell as soon as they get Wildeshape: those who don't use their spellcasting, and those who don't Wildshape, and I seriously doubt any of either sort of druid exists, at least in any appreciable showing.
I think that Natural Spell will be less ubiquitous now since (a) Wild Shaping into an animal isn't that great and (b) Wild Shaping into an elemental would allow you to cast spells anyway.
As a note, on the one occasion I played a druid, I didn't take Natural Spell; he was primarily a spellcaster, not a melee fighter, and he used a fair number of wands and scrolls. I agree that's the exception rather than the rule, though.
One should remember that Natural Spell is /not/ still+silent spell for Druids.
Quote
"You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell. "
This means that when the birdie starts waving his wings around and chittering murderously at someone who can cast magic, they can try to get a spellcraft off to determine that the birdie is casting a spell at them.
It also means that the bird is unlikely to be able to fly and cast spells at the same time.
Natural Spell does not replace the need for the verbal and somatic component, they just teach the druid how to use the animal bits to perform them.
Given that some spells, like call lightning, take a full round action to cast (rather than a standard action), it does give foes some small amount of time to act. (such as to gut the tweety bird who's casting the spell).
-S
One should remember that Natural Spell is /not/ still+silent spell for Druids.
Quote
"You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell. "This means that when the birdie starts waving his wings around and chittering murderously at someone who can cast magic, they can try to get a spellcraft off to determine that the birdie is casting a spell at them.
It also means that the bird is unlikely to be able to fly and cast spells at the same time.
Natural Spell does not replace the need for the verbal and somatic component, they just teach the druid how to use the animal bits to perform them.
Given that some spells, like call lightning, take a full round action to cast (rather than a standard action), it does give foes some small amount of time to act. (such as to gut the tweety bird who's casting the spell).
-S
Right on the mark. I have a 15th level druid and this hasn't been a problem. Of course I'm not much of a powergamer. The 1 round spells slow me down quite a bit, and I got squished once casting spells in rat form. Thankfully I still had my original hp. Still I had to make a concentration roll. Love those timely 20s!
Most of my spellcasting in animal form tends to be in non-combat situations as well.
One should remember that Natural Spell is /not/ still+silent spell for Druids.
Quote
"You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell. "This means that when the birdie starts waving his wings around and chittering murderously at someone who can cast magic, they can try to get a spellcraft off to determine that the birdie is casting a spell at them.
It also means that the bird is unlikely to be able to fly and cast spells at the same time.
Natural Spell does not replace the need for the verbal and somatic component, they just teach the druid how to use the animal bits to perform them.
Given that some spells, like call lightning, take a full round action to cast (rather than a standard action), it does give foes some small amount of time to act. (such as to gut the tweety bird who's casting the spell).
-S
Well I am not sure if Spellcraft check should be awarded for this. At best I would give it but rule that the observer cannot either hear or see the caster (since caster is using normal animal movements and sounds for this) so the penalty would go up for this Spellcraft check.
Also I would not award this check unless the observer knew that he is facing a druid that can do this or has already been attacked and/or warned about this. Then I would also do the animals singing routine and see if the observer would ask for spellcraft checks then (so we can avoid him/her using metagaming knowledge when the actual druid is casting the spell).
|
Well I am not sure if Spellcraft check should be awarded for this. At best I would give it but rule that the observer cannot either hear or see the caster (since caster is using normal animal movements and sounds for this) so the penalty would go up for this Spellcraft check.
Also I would not award this check unless the observer knew that he is facing a druid that can do this or has already been attacked and/or warned about this. Then I would also do the animals singing routine and see if the observer would ask for spellcraft checks then (so we can avoid him/her using metagaming knowledge when the actual druid is casting the spell).
The rules are pretty explicit about this - the only time the character(s) should not receive a Spellcraft check to ID the spell, and at no penalty to boot, is if they don't, in fact, notice the caster at all. Otherwise, the rules are clear that the animal's actions should be as identifiable as arcane or divine spell components as they would be if the druid were in human form.
At the same time, however, nothing in the rules suggests that a flying druid would have any particular difficulty casting a spell. I suppose that, if Jason wanted to arrange for something like that, the rules could call for a Fly check (at the same TN as casting defensively, say), but they don't at the moment.
Archangel:
You are free to houserule it that way, but in so doing you are greatly and drastically increasing the power of the feat. The rules just don't back up what you are saying. Casting a spell is clearly casting a spell unless you have taken some specific explicit methods of hiding it. Natural spell doesn't say anything about hiding the fact that the druid is casting- it merely grants them the capability to do so while in the form of a fuzzy forest animal.
Whether they can cast on the wing is, I admit, up to interpretation, but I tend to assume wing is to arm as leg is to leg, and as such would require them to land and do the wing wave to cast spells. But that is just me.
-S
edit: typos.
Whether they can cast on the wing is, I admit, up to interpretation, but I tend to assume wing is to arm as leg is to leg, and as such would require them to land and do the wing wave to cast spells.
If this is up to interpretation, I don't see why a spellcraft check to identify the spell being hindered or not by the caster being in non-human form is not equally up to interpretation. The sounds are different, the gestures are different, etc. And that doesn't even cover shapes that have less limbs or none at all, or those that don't have a variable speech capacity (verbal components while casting in rabbit form, anyone?).
Well I am not sure if Spellcraft check should be awarded for this. At best I would give it but rule that the observer cannot either hear or see the caster (since caster is using normal animal movements and sounds for this) so the penalty would go up for this Spellcraft check.
Also I would not award this check unless the observer knew that he is facing a druid that can do this or has already been attacked and/or warned about this. Then I would also do the animals singing routine and see if the observer would ask for spellcraft checks then (so we can avoid him/her using metagaming knowledge when the actual druid is casting the spell).The rules are pretty explicit about this - the only time the character(s) should not receive a Spellcraft check to ID the spell, and at no penalty to boot, is if they don't, in fact, notice the caster at all. Otherwise, the rules are clear that the animal's actions should be as identifiable as arcane or divine spell components as they would be if the druid were in human form.
At the same time, however, nothing in the rules suggests that a flying druid would have any particular difficulty casting a spell. I suppose that, if Jason wanted to arrange for something like that, the rules could call for a Fly check (at the same TN as casting defensively, say), but they don't at the moment.
And how is looking at the bird singing and waving its wings noticing the caster? How do you know that bird is the caster? Now, what you claim is that each person in the world with Spellcraft has metagame knowledge of everything around them.
I do not see this as clear rules, not even close.And I am not house ruling but interpreting unclear rules.
Well I am not sure if Spellcraft check should be awarded for this. At best I would give it but rule that the observer cannot either hear or see the caster (since caster is using normal animal movements and sounds for this) so the penalty would go up for this Spellcraft check.
Also I would not award this check unless the observer knew that he is facing a druid that can do this or has already been attacked and/or warned about this. Then I would also do the animals singing routine and see if the observer would ask for spellcraft checks then (so we can avoid him/her using metagaming knowledge when the actual druid is casting the spell).The rules are pretty explicit about this - the only time the character(s) should not receive a Spellcraft check to ID the spell, and at no penalty to boot, is if they don't, in fact, notice the caster at all. Otherwise, the rules are clear that the animal's actions should be as identifiable as arcane or divine spell components as they would be if the druid were in human form.
At the same time, however, nothing in the rules suggests that a flying druid would have any particular difficulty casting a spell. I suppose that, if Jason wanted to arrange for something like that, the rules could call for a Fly check (at the same TN as casting defensively, say), but they don't at the moment.
And how is looking at the bird singing and waving its wings noticing the caster? How do you know that bird is the caster? Now, what you claim is that each person in the world with Spellcraft has metagame knowledge of everything around them.
I do not see this as clear rules, not even close.
And I am not house ruling but interpreting unclear rules.
Yes, it's a bit dicey. Is casting a marshalling of arcane/divine forces to be channeled into a spell, hence drawing the trained eye to it? Or is it more internal, and limited to a few outward signs?
While I would have preferred not to have been spotted casting spells in animal form I can see both sides of the argument. And the 2 opposing points of view. I think the circumstances hold more sway here. Spotting a sparrow in forest full of trees acting a bit strangely should be tough. Poor little birdy doing a mating dance gets fried by a spellcaster in a case of mistaken identity. lol.
Spotting a sparrow in forest full of trees acting a bit strangely should be tough.
Given that any real sparrow near a combat site is going to be making itself scarce on the double, maybe not so tough as you think. ;-) The only real issues are the critter's size and how well it blends in its surroundings, not the fact that it looks like an innocent animal.
Spotting a sparrow in forest full of trees acting a bit strangely should be tough.Given that any real sparrow near a combat site is going to be making itself scarce on the double, maybe not so tough as you think. ;-) The only real issues are the critter's size and how well it blends in its surroundings, not the fact that it looks like an innocent animal.
Agreed, with caveats -
IF combat has started.Blending is good, but also range. Love those medium/long-range spells. AND the concealment trees provide.
Still I like the idea of a paranoid caster thinking he's about to be ambushed, but them my DM loves to *surprise* us. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that sparrow isn't out to get you...
|
|
Spotting a sparrow in forest full of trees acting a bit strangely should be tough.Given that any real sparrow near a combat site is going to be making itself scarce on the double, maybe not so tough as you think. ;-) The only real issues are the critter's size and how well it blends in its surroundings, not the fact that it looks like an innocent animal.
Precisely. The rules already cover this situation. A druid in sparrow form is going to have a hefty bonus to its Steath check (+8 size, +2 minimum enhancement bonus), so seeing the sparrow is not necessarily going to be easy. Once you have done so, however, the Spellcraft check is the Spellcraft check, period. How the flavor plays out is up to individual interpretation, but the rules are not.
Actually there is something for casting while flying. Basically, you can cast a full-round action spell over multiple rounds (that is, keeping up your flight with a move action, beginning the spell one round 1, completing the spell one round 2 with your next standard action). I believe it explains in in the magic section of the 3.5 PHB.
'Course, it's not like the druid (at the level it CAN turn into a tiny sparrow for that mad-high hide bonus) is really impressing anyone. An improved invisible wizard or sorcerer could be just as bad.
*shrugs*
Actually there is something for casting while flying. Basically, you can cast a full-round action spell over multiple rounds (that is, keeping up your flight with a move action, beginning the spell one round 1, completing the spell one round 2 with your next standard action). I believe it explains in in the magic section of the 3.5 PHB.
'Course, it's not like the druid (at the level it CAN turn into a tiny sparrow for that mad-high hide bonus) is really impressing anyone. An improved invisible wizard or sorcerer could be just as bad.
*shrugs*
Certainly. Greater invisibility and such can be a royal pain.
Here's another scenario - A wizard castings spells thru small woodland creatures. Not sure how that is done in 3.5 but you could do it in earlier versions.
Our DM was sniping us with a squirrel a druid/sorcerer was controlling, then tried to act like I was evil when I blasted said critter.
Precisely. The rules already cover this situation. A druid in sparrow form is going to have a hefty bonus to its Steath check (+8 size, +2 minimum enhancement bonus), so seeing the sparrow is not necessarily going to be easy. Once you have done so, however, the Spellcraft check is the Spellcraft check, period. How the flavor plays out is up to individual interpretation, but the rules are not.Spotting a sparrow in forest full of trees acting a bit strangely should be tough.Given that any real sparrow near a combat site is going to be making itself scarce on the double, maybe not so tough as you think. ;-) The only real issues are the critter's size and how well it blends in its surroundings, not the fact that it looks like an innocent animal.
No they do not. Just like Spellcraft cannot identify Spell-like abilities (because they do not have any components in casting), I do not see how normal movements and sounds of the animal are considered spellcasting.
No they do not. Just like Spellcraft cannot identify Spell-like abilities (because they do not have any components in casting), I do not see how normal movements and sounds of the animal are considered spellcasting.Precisely. The rules already cover this situation. A druid in sparrow form is going to have a hefty bonus to its Steath check (+8 size, +2 minimum enhancement bonus), so seeing the sparrow is not necessarily going to be easy. Once you have done so, however, the Spellcraft check is the Spellcraft check, period. How the flavor plays out is up to individual interpretation, but the rules are not.Spotting a sparrow in forest full of trees acting a bit strangely should be tough.Given that any real sparrow near a combat site is going to be making itself scarce on the double, maybe not so tough as you think. ;-) The only real issues are the critter's size and how well it blends in its surroundings, not the fact that it looks like an innocent animal.
Or how to tell the difference between 'normal' movements and sounds versus 'unnatural'. Most people/critters don't have the knowledge of animals like a druid/ranger would. That's just the mating dance of the finch...or is it a spell? No! I can see it's little birdie fingers waggling and that worm is really a spell focus!
While spotting it might be tough but possible, recognizing what it's doing is another matter.
Hence the nastiness of natural spell.
All conditions come into play.
It is that way not because "it makes sense" but rather because the rules don't say it changes.
Unless the rules change something, then the default rules apply. The default rules don't take into account altered forms when determining whether or not someone is casting a spell.
If you can see them, you can make a spellcraft check to see what they are casting. That is what the rules say. Altering it to allow a bird to cast a spell unnoticed makes sense- but it's also an unnecessary buff to the primary people who turn into animals and cast spells- druids.
Natural spell has ONE effect. It lets druids cast spells while in a form that wouldn't otherwise be able to do so. Period. By the rules that is ALL it does. If you wish to have it do more, then that is fine- but in so doing you are making a fairly powerful feat even more powerful.
Natural spell + hiding spell casting > natural spell alone.
You are going beyond the feat description.
A bird casting a spell is not a bird making "normal movements" anymore than a human wizard casting a spell is making "Normal movements". They are clearly recognizable as spell casting by anyone trained to recognize it. (assuming, of course, that the spell has a somatic component in the first place).
As to the bird/wing bit:
I say open to interpretation because different people will see it different ways.
Birds use their feat like hands and like feet. (they stand and walk on 'em, and also sometimes pick things up with them) while the wings really just are there to fly around with (and to occasionally nudge their young with). I say "interpretation" because there is no rule that says birds use their wings to cast spells rather than their feet.
They would use their wings for it in my campaign.
-S
You are going beyond the feat description.
-S
I stand corrupted.
It's actually a feat I don't use that often, but it's handy when you need it. More as a convenience to avoid changing back to elf form, then wildshaping again.
<Yes, that's what I HAVE TO do to cast a cure spell on you while I'm in chihuahua form...> ;-)
It is that way not because "it makes sense" but rather because the rules don't say it changes.
Unless the rules change something, then the default rules apply. The default rules don't take into account altered forms when determining whether or not someone is casting a spell.
If you can see them, you can make a spellcraft check to see what they are casting. That is what the rules say. Altering it to allow a bird to cast a spell unnoticed makes sense- but it's also an unnecessary buff to the primary people who turn into animals and cast spells- druids.
Natural spell has ONE effect. It lets druids cast spells while in a form that wouldn't otherwise be able to do so. Period. By the rules that is ALL it does. If you wish to have it do more, then that is fine- but in so doing you are making a fairly powerful feat even more powerful.
Natural spell + hiding spell casting > natural spell alone.
You are going beyond the feat description.
A bird casting a spell is not a bird making "normal movements" anymore than a human wizard casting a spell is making "Normal movements". They are clearly recognizable as spell casting by anyone trained to recognize it. (assuming, of course, that the spell has a somatic component in the first place).
As to the bird/wing bit:
I say open to interpretation because different people will see it different ways.
Birds use their feat like hands and like feet. (they stand and walk on 'em, and also sometimes pick things up with them) while the wings really just are there to fly around with (and to occasionally nudge their young with). I say "interpretation" because there is no rule that says birds use their wings to cast spells rather than their feet.
They would use their wings for it in my campaign.
-S
I still do not think I am. The feat cannot describe all the situations that come up. So it doesn't.
For spellcraft to be used you have to be able to hear and/or see the spellcasting to identify it.You cannot see or hear it from the animal, you can only see and hear that animal normal movement (if even that); there is not strange words, not crazy movement of hands. Animals normally cannot cast spells (any other polymorph effect does not allow you to cast spells in any animal form), and I doubt they teach in wizard academies how to look for spells in animal's movements.
Or how to tell the difference between 'normal' movements and sounds versus 'unnatural'. Most people/critters don't have the knowledge of animals like a druid/ranger would. That's just the mating dance of the finch...or is it a spell? No! I can see it's little birdie fingers waggling and that worm is really a spell focus!
You do realize that you're describing the thought process that goes into a Spellcraft check, right? They get the check and their conclusions are based on the success/failure of their roll.
You do realize that you're describing the thought process that goes into a Spellcraft check, right? They get the check and their conclusions are based on the success/failure of their roll.
Or how to tell the difference between 'normal' movements and sounds versus 'unnatural'. Most people/critters don't have the knowledge of animals like a druid/ranger would. That's just the mating dance of the finch...or is it a spell? No! I can see it's little birdie fingers waggling and that worm is really a spell focus!
I conceded the point earlier on, but it sounds like a situational modifier would be in order. BUT since it's not specified in either Spellcraft or Natural Spell it would be a house rule. Back to basics -
1. You must be able to see or hear said actions. (Modifiers come into play by RAW.)
2. You must be able to recognize said actions. (Spellcraft)
I didn't realize this thread would start such a good debate. That's a good thing IMO.
I still like the idea of a city born wizard being paranoid when walking thru a forest because he/she's heard about the applications of Natural Spell. Just as a druid would be out of her element in the city.
Somatic components are not normal gestures.
If they were then normal wizards, druids, and clerics, could walka round making "normal movements" while casting spells to do so without anyone noticing. They are not "normal movements" they are "somatic components."
I quote the SRD:
Natural Spell [General]
Prerequisites
Wis 13, wild shape ability.
Benefit
You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.
You can also use any material components or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while in a wild shape.
<end quote>
Substitute Various Noises and Gestures.
This means that while the druid might do a hand wave and say a few words, a squirrel would have to likewise perform the somatic components and chitter off at someone.
Can they be seen? Roll a spot check. Can it be heard? Roll a listen check.
It works just like it does if the druid is in humanoid form.
Can you see the druid? Can you hear the druid? Make the perception checks to find out.
Once you find their location and can see them, then the spell craft comes into play.
As written there is no modifier to the roll. (the perceptions get modifiers because of the form- that's taken into account with Wildshape though and isn't a function of Natural Spell feat).
Anyone trained in identifying spells can tell whether the squirrel is casting a spell or if its just hacked off that the PC's built a fire over it's nut cache.
Again- If you want to houserule otherwise you are free to do so but be aware that all you are actually accomplishing is to make a powerful class even more powerful. Druids really, really don't need the buff.
It isn't an accident that the rules don't take form into account. Its something that would be very very easy for them to add if they had wanted to. (such as- spellcraft checks to identify spell casting take a -x penalty when the caster is polymorphed or wildshaped into a non-humanoid form.) They didn't include it because it would arguably be too powerful. Heck, many folks consider the feat as written to be over the top, why push it further over the edge?
-S
Somatic components are not normal gestures.
If they were then normal wizards, druids, and clerics, could walka round making "normal movements" while casting spells to do so without anyone noticing. They are not "normal movements" they are "somatic components."I quote the SRD:
Natural Spell [General]
Prerequisites
Wis 13, wild shape ability.Benefit
You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.You can also use any material components or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while in a wild shape.
<end quote>Substitute Various Noises and Gestures.
This means that while the druid might do a hand wave and say a few words, a squirrel would have to likewise perform the somatic components and chitter off at someone.
Can they be seen? Roll a spot check. Can it be heard? Roll a listen check.
It works just like it does if the druid is in humanoid form.
Can you see the druid? Can you hear the druid? Make the perception checks to find out.
Once you find their location and can see them, then the spell craft comes into play.As written there is no modifier to the roll. (the perceptions get modifiers because of the form- that's taken into account with Wildshape though and isn't a function of Natural Spell feat).
Anyone trained in identifying spells can tell whether the squirrel is casting a spell or if its just hacked off that the PC's built a fire over it's nut cache.
Again- If you want to houserule otherwise you are free to do so but be aware that all you are actually accomplishing is to make a powerful class even more powerful. Druids really, really don't need the buff.
It isn't an accident that the rules don't take form into account. Its something...
Good summary. Perhaps another example would help. Spellcraft lets you identify spellcasting by other non-human monsters, well beyond woodland creatures. (Not SA or Ex) eg. Dragons and many others. WITHOUT a special knowledge check, only Spellcraft.
|
|
To get back to the original point just a bit, I've recently noticed in my playtest that wild shape + domain abilities = no Natural Spell needed. SLAs are unaffected by the polymorph effect, so you can keep using them - and if you pick your domain right, you can achieve a number of effects without ever sweating the casting components...
To get back to the original point just a bit, I've recently noticed in my playtest that wild shape + domain abilities = no Natural Spell needed. SLAs are unaffected by the polymorph effect, so you can keep using them - and if you pick your domain right, you can achieve a number of effects without ever sweating the casting components...
Do druids gain a domain without sacrificing another ability in Pathfinder? Head too fuzzy.........
|
|
To get back to the original point just a bit, I've recently noticed in my playtest that wild shape + domain abilities = no Natural Spell needed. SLAs are unaffected by the polymorph effect, so you can keep using them - and if you pick your domain right, you can achieve a number of effects without ever sweating the casting components...Do druids gain a domain without sacrificing another ability in Pathfinder? Head too fuzzy.........
You can choose a domain instead of an animal companion. I originally went the domain route because keeping track of an animal companion is a pain in the butt, but once I hit wild shape (and still had another level to go before I got a feat pick), suddenly I saw a whole other side to the choice...
You can choose a domain instead of an animal companion. I originally went the domain route because keeping track of an animal companion is a pain in the butt, but once I hit wild shape (and still had another level to go before I got a feat pick), suddenly I saw a whole other side to the choice...To get back to the original point just a bit, I've recently noticed in my playtest that wild shape + domain abilities = no Natural Spell needed. SLAs are unaffected by the polymorph effect, so you can keep using them - and if you pick your domain right, you can achieve a number of effects without ever sweating the casting components...Do druids gain a domain without sacrificing another ability in Pathfinder? Head too fuzzy.........
Hmmmm...Didn't realize that Domain spells fell under SLA.
nerfed
Bleh.
Good summary. Perhaps another example would help. Spellcraft lets you identify spellcasting by other non-human monsters, well beyond woodland creatures. (Not SA or Ex) eg. Dragons and many others. WITHOUT a special knowledge check, only Spellcraft.Somatic components are not normal gestures.
If they were then normal wizards, druids, and clerics, could walka round making "normal movements" while casting spells to do so without anyone noticing. They are not "normal movements" they are "somatic components."I quote the SRD:
Natural Spell [General]
Prerequisites
Wis 13, wild shape ability.Benefit
You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.You can also use any material components or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while in a wild shape.
<end quote>Substitute Various Noises and Gestures.
This means that while the druid might do a hand wave and say a few words, a squirrel would have to likewise perform the somatic components and chitter off at someone.
Can they be seen? Roll a spot check. Can it be heard? Roll a listen check.
It works just like it does if the druid is in humanoid form.
Can you see the druid? Can you hear the druid? Make the perception checks to find out.
Once you find their location and can see them, then the spell craft comes into play.As written there is no modifier to the roll. (the perceptions get modifiers because of the form- that's taken into account with Wildshape though and isn't a function of Natural Spell feat).
Anyone trained in identifying spells can tell whether the squirrel is casting a spell or if its just hacked off that the PC's built a fire over it's nut cache.
Again- If you want to houserule otherwise you are free to do so but be aware that all you are actually accomplishing is to make a powerful class even more powerful. Druids really, really don't need the buff.
It isn't an accident that the rules don't take form into account....
They do if those spells have any components. Most do not. Animals for certain do not. Spellcraft is a learned ability, it is not Int based for no reason. It is something you memorize and practice.
Druids are the only ones that can cast spells in animal form (and only if they got the feat), and they use standard animal sounds and movements to do that. At least some kind of Perception or Sense Motive would be needed to get to roll the Spellcraft. Or some penalty to spellcraft should be given, at least for lack of understanding sounds of spellcasting.I am not sure but I think Dragons do not have components or do not use all components for their spells. And Draconic is practically the language of spellcasting so it is easy for spellcasters to understand what they are trying to do.
Druids are the only ones that can cast spells in animal form (and only if they got the feat), and they use standard animal sounds and movements to do that.
Where does it say they use standard animal sounds and movements?
Again- and I have said it before- there is Nothing "standard" about an amimal casting a spell. You are creating a benefit where none exists.
If you see a wizard or cleric or druid casting a spell, you KNOW. How? Because his movements aren't normal. They are the movements of casting a spell.
Now I will grant you that some animals don't have the anatomy that human(oid)s do, but the feat, and the rules, *still* do not take into account what form you are in, when making the spellcraft check. Since the rules do not increase the DC to spellcraft a spell while in an alternate form then it IS NOT more difficult to discern a spell cast by a snake than it is a spell cast by a wizard. That is what the rules currently are.
A squirrel, snake, bat, dire bear, velociraptor, or whatever, casting a spell is distinctly casting a spell.
You make perception checks to see/hear what they are doing and if you succeed and can see them then you can make the spellcraft check. Period. Anything else is a house rule, and a substantial buff to the druid. Whether or not you make that houserule is completely up to you- but do please be aware that you are buffing a feat that doesn't need it, that is attached to a class that doesn't really need the buff.
It's already harder to see a small animal than it is a human. They don't need the double-buff of it being harder to discern their spell casting.
If a naga casts a spell, wizards can identify it. If a kercpa (squirrel men. no, i didn't make them up.) cast a spell, wizards can identify it. When a dragon casts a spell, a wizard can identify it. If Yuanti or demons or an awakened animal or a plant man or any other creature in the entire game that is capable of casting spells casts a spell, someone trained in spellcraft can identify it. There Is no modifier for the form of the spell caster. And Natural Spell doesn't grant one just for druids.
Does it make logical sense? Probably not. But sometimes the mechanics of the game have to take precedence over whether or not we like the rule, and whether or not it makes logical sense to us.
-S