I really like the flavor of the product, but I'm far more frustrated than inspired due to the poor organization, inability to properly place locations and apparent omissions.
Some examples:
-text for Dragonspring and Shelyn's bow is on p 9 but map locations are on p 17 and 18 respectively.
-I have no real idea where the ruins of Falconridge and Northsap are located despite the text on 10.
-What are the Steps of Iron on the map on p 8? I suspect they are the Sixteen Steps of Irori noted on p 15.
-Trying to match the text to map locations on Droskar's Crag is a strain, numbers with a key would have been so much better than the cluttered scrawl on the Mountain. I'm not certain where the Ruins of Jernashall are, along with many other places. Its simply difficult to puzzle out the location of many of the sites.
The correlation between the text and map needs to be significantly improved. I suggest that someone go through each text entry and then attempt to find it on the map. Posting a list of Jernashall is on/near such and such ridge or updating the PDF map would be a huge improvement. I'm so nebulous on where places are that I don't feel comfortable using the area. This is the 'worst' product I've received from Paizo. Great flavor, but it's simply not friendly at all once you attempt to actually try and locate the cool place on the map.
This is the 'worst' product I've received from Paizo. Great flavor, but it's simply not friendly at all once you attempt to actually try and locate the cool place on the map.
I feel relieved that I wasn't the only one who noticed this.
Any idea when this one will be avaliable as a PDF?
Can anyone provide the following information:
Location of Falconridge
Location of Northsap
Where on the SW face Torag's Mouth is
Lair of Taxthyl in Arthfell
Location of Broken Tower (the text notes "2 miles up (south?) the pass" but that location doesn't seem to correspond to the ruined marker on the large map).
Sixteen Steps of Irori are noted in the text as being 2 miles long, but the map renders them more akin to 6. Which is correct.
Location of the Eye of Droskar
Location of the Hexagonal Tower
Location of the Grotto of St Elth
The more studied the large map the more depressed I became. The rendering isn't all that good and I simply can't puzzle out what some of the locations are, specifically: what is the 'tower' north of Oldfen and what are the two 'towers' along the north edge of the map?
This info would go a long way in making the guide useable.
Thanks in advance for any assisatnce.
Any idea when this one will be avaliable as a PDF?
July 30th
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Please do me (and by extension, Paizo) a quick favor and answer these two simple questions:
What is your favorite part of the book's contents?
What part of the book's contents would you have liked to have seen done differently?
Thanks!
I really enjoyed some of the phrasing, and the secrets.
I thought the mapping was a bit shaky and the referencing of the modules was a little too direct (wanted my player to read this, but i'm not sure they should...)
Contributor
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Can anyone provide the following information:
I can hit some of these from memory.
Lair of Taxthyl in Arthfell
She lives in the part of Arthfell that isn't in Darkmoon Vale, and thus isn't on the map. (This omission was on purpose!)
Sixteen Steps of Irori are noted in the text as being 2 miles long, but the map renders them more akin to 6. Which is correct.
The text.
Location of the Grotto of St Elth
I thought that was on the map...? I haven't seen the print product so I can't really say for sure. Darn, I thought for sure we got that one. :\
The more studied the large map the more depressed I became. The rendering isn't all that good and I simply can't puzzle out what some of the locations are, specifically: what is the 'tower' north of Oldfen and what are the two 'towers' along the north edge of the map?
This info would go a long way in making the guide usable.
Thanks in advance for any assistance.
Hmm... I'll need to get a copy (which will prolly be soon) before I can address the rest of your questions. Bump this thread again in like 2-3 weeks. :)
Mike, thanks for the reply.
Since you note you haven't seen the final product I'm curious as to what your opinion is when you do. As I wrote I really liked the flavor, but there seemed to be a disconnect between the text and cartography that really reduced the reading pleasure and usefulness of the product. A non map issue that is a pretty large discrepancy-on p 26 pickled Rat's Tail is noted as being used by the poorer residents as a salt substitute, yet in D0 its so rare that the herbalist in Falcon's Hollow doesn't have any and suggests the only place to get some is from an ancient and feared witch.
I'll keep on eye on this thread for any additional insight from you.
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Contributor
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Mike, thanks for the reply.
Since you note you haven't seen the final product I'm curious as to what your opinion is when you do. As I wrote I really liked the flavor, but there seemed to be a disconnect between the text and cartography that really reduced the reading pleasure and usefulness of the product. A non map issue that is a pretty large discrepancy-on p 26 pickled Rat's Tail is noted as being used by the poorer residents as a salt substitute, yet in D0 its so rare that the herbalist in Falcon's Hollow doesn't have any and suggests the only place to get some is from an ancient and feared witch.
I'll keep on eye on this thread for any additional insight from you.
Well I know what the words are and how it looked as an electronic proof. But yeah, I'm curious to see it in its final form. :)
As for the rat's tail discrepancy: Sometimes rat's tail is really common, and sometimes it's really hard to come by. For D0, it was obviously a bad year for the stuff.
*totally not making up stuff off the cuff to explain away any contradictions*
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Its a very nice product. As always the writing is top notch and the information given, rich, but there seem to be some things that were lost in the editing/printing process.
I can see how Steps of Irori became Steps of Iron..the r and i were blended together.
The numbers to the indicated points of interest in Olfden are missing
I don't understand the big map at all. It seems kinda blank and sparse..devoid of what the inset maps in the book are like. Is this supposed to be a player's map? Was stuff lost in the printing phase? What are those big white squares that the key indicates as Towers?
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Okay - I plead ignorance on this ... I was overjoyed that items weren't labled on the big map. I just received the product today, so I can't say much more than, I perceived the lack of lables to be good for, say, someone doing a homebrew involving only Falcon's Hollow, leaving much of the surrounding area open for homebrew interpretation.
Was I wrong? Can someone clarify what the map was supposed to do that it did not do?
Or, let me know that I can go on obliviously happy with it...
so this is worth it huh?
Well, if coordinates for the assorted locations in the text that aren't on the map are provided then it's worth it, otherwise not so much. It's rather inadequate as a guide if you can't actually locate the place described.
so this is worth it huh?
Do you like the Darkmoon Vale and want to have more adventures there? Do you like small settings that players can get to know an area indepth. Do you like Kobolds? Do you like quality Paizo products?
If the answer to any of these is "yes," then it is worth it.
Do you like the Darkmoon Vale and want to have more adventures there? Do you like small settings that players can get to know an area indepth. Do you like Kobolds? Do you like quality Paizo products?If the answer to any of these is "yes," then it is worth it.
IMO the quality for this product was not up to Paizo's typical high standards. I really liked the flavor of the Vale and carefully read the product, but was pretty disappointed by the inability to determine where/what several locations are.
DMcCoy, let me ask you-do you know where the following sites are located?
Location of Falconridge
Location of Northsap
Where on the SW face Torag's Mouth is
Location of Broken Tower (the text notes "2 miles up (south?) the pass" but that location doesn't seem to correspond to the ruined marker on the large map).
Location of the Eye of Droskar
Location of the Hexagonal Tower
Location of the Grotto of St Elth
In the large map-What the 'tower' north of Oldfen is and what the two 'towers' along the north edge of the map are.
If the answer is 'no' how can you really extoll the quality of the product? I'll agree the flavor was good, but the missing sites is a big issue for me. Hopefully Mike will be able to provide sufficient info to accurately place them.
IMO the quality for this product was not up to Paizo's typical high standards.
While I would agree that this book is probably the current low point in Paizo's products, I would however agrue that this book far exceeds both the Book of Nine Swords and Races of Faerun in both usefulness and in quality.
From my prospective, the fact that the map wasn't as intracitly detailed as you or I would like, the quality of koboldic goodness and the Third Veil, or the details about the werewolves more then make up for it. I don't mind saying, "Its this square on the map," or "Its right in this area," if I can give a great description of it. Who knows, maybe some players will think I came up with all this stuff since its not on the map. Wouldn't that be cool?
I don't need a map so accurate that I know exactly where to place a laser guided missle. Having a less detailed map makes me more likely to show the players it. The players aren't going to know the name of X ruin, just that there are some ruins said to be beyond bla bla bla.
While I would agree that this book is probably the current low point in Paizo's products, I would however agrue that this book far exceeds both the Book of Nine Swords and Races of Faerun in both usefulness and in quality.
While I don't use Bo9S or Races of Faerun it's an apples vs oranges comparison. This was billed as a guide book, not a splat book. I've written numerous times that I really liked the flavor, but the cartography issue is huge to me. If you look at the Scarwall thread you'll note a posting of errata, missing doors and such, was promptly made. I'm much more likely to add doors that appears to be missing without any dithering or official 'word' since the PCs are only going to be in the dungeon once it really doesn't matter if it's 'right.' Guessing about the location of larger sites, eg towns and ruins, is a problem because subsequently moving them to the 'correct' location damages the verisimilitude of the world. This could easily occur if additional modules are set in the Vale. If the big map was the players map that's fine, but the smaller maps in the book should be sufficiently detailed for me as the DM to accurately be able to locate each site. By accurately, I mean approximately x miles NW of Oldfen, a laser guided missile isn't necessary :).
Everyone has different priorities when it comes to products, the accuracy of the maps and their integration to text is one of mine. I'm still optimistic that Mike or someone else will be able to provide the necessary info to tie the text to a location on the map. If that doesn't occur the product will likely not see use and I'd rate it extremely substandard both for the initial omissions and the lack of errata.
IMO the quality for this product was not up to Paizo's typical high standards.I don't need a map so accurate that I know exactly where to place a laser guided missle. Having a less detailed map makes me more likely to show the players it. The players aren't going to know the name of X ruin, just that there are some ruins said to be beyond bla bla bla.
I appreciate your position DMcCoy1693, but I feel like small mistakes like the ones Krell mentioned make Paizo look really bad, and I don't like to see that any more than anyone else here.
Mistakes in graphics make you look sloppy, no matter whether the map is done in color or black-and-white. I feel like because these maps are for DMs, it's only proper that DMs expect a certain level of quality.
Believe me, I am not one to complain for complaining's sake. As a web developer, sloppy work gets noticed by my users right away. Users then begin to feel like the web site or web application as a whole isn't as reliable as it was. Granted, this probably isn't the case for printed material, but the feeling is somewhat the same.
If you want people to feel like you make the best products in the industry, make sure your end result is of higher quality than anyone else. And that doesn't just mean the text content.
Creative Director
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I've written numerous times that I really liked the flavor, but the cartography issue is huge to me. If you look at the Scarwall thread you'll note a posting of errata, missing doors and such, was promptly made. I'm much more likely to add doors that appears to be missing without any dithering or official 'word' since the PCs are only going to be in the dungeon once it really doesn't matter if it's 'right.' Guessing about the location of larger sites, eg towns and ruins, is a problem because subsequently moving them to the 'correct' location damages the verisimilitude of the world.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of bits of missing info and errors on the map. And unfortunately, it'll probably be a while before we have a chance to correct them, unless Mike wants to step in here and offer some advice. But that's not as easy as it seems, because Mike's no longer working at Paizo (he's moved on to a different career), and while he does continue to post here now and then, I'm not sure he has the time to post huge errata lists for products. Nor do I expect him to; it's not his job, after all!
Further complicating things is that Darkmoon Vale went through its production cycle without ever passing through my hands until the very end... it was handled, primarily, by the module editing team. We've since reorganized the department, lost a few employees, and gained a few employees, but as a result no one at Paizo right now is super familiar with Guide to Darkmoon Vale, and therefore the amount of time it would take to research everything and place everything on the map isn't just a matter of looking at a first draft map turnover or asking someone over the cube walls or drawing upon personal experience. The errors in Scarwall, for example, are in a product I'm VERY familiar with, and I (and the author, who noticed the thread) were both able to zip in there and offer corrections quickly. We don't currently have the resources to do the same at the drop of a hat for "Guide to Darkmoon Vale," unfortunately.
Now, that all said... once we're on the far side of Gen Con, and once we have Pathfinder 15, Gods & Magic, Elves of Golarion, and the latest module off to the printer by August 22nd... we'll be a lot more able to check these things out. I'll see if I can't sit down one evening near the end of the month (maybe with Mike!) and sort out where the missing tags go and then put a corrected map up on the blog at paizo.com or something. But it won't be something we can do in the next 2 weeks at the very least.
some conciliatory stuff
It's this attention to the customer that has kept me a Paizo customer. This more than anything makes me feel like a valued member of the community and a partner in the improvement of their products as a whole.
Thanks James.
James,
Thanks for any efforts in addressing the deficiencies in the guide. I can hold my breath until the end of Aug/Beg of Sep-I'd much rather have it right later, than wrong but today. D0/1/1.5 and CoT were so good that in comparison the guide was a disappointment. Not that it's unsalvageable, but folk should just be aware that, as written, the guide has some significant issues. I'll refrain from any additional posts to the thread until the beg of Sep. No need to belabor the issue.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of bits of missing info and errors on the map. And unfortunately, it'll probably be a while before we have a chance to correct them, unless Mike wants to step in here and offer some advice. But that's not as easy as it seems, because Mike's no longer working at Paizo (he's moved on to a different career), and while he does continue to post here now and then, I'm not sure he has the time to post huge errata lists for products. Nor do I expect him to; it's not his job, after all!Further complicating things is that Darkmoon Vale went through its production cycle without ever passing through my hands until the very end... it was handled, primarily, by the module editing team. We've since reorganized the department, lost a few employees, and gained a few employees, but as a result no one at Paizo right now is super familiar with Guide to Darkmoon Vale, and therefore the amount of time it would take to research everything and place everything on the map isn't just a matter of looking at a first draft map turnover or asking someone over the cube walls or drawing upon personal experience. The errors in Scarwall, for example, are in a product I'm VERY familiar with, and I (and the author, who noticed the thread) were both able to zip in there and offer corrections quickly. We don't currently have the resources to do the same at the drop of a hat for "Guide to Darkmoon Vale,"...
Any progress on placing the 'missing' sites on the map?
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Creative Director
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Any progress on placing the 'missing' sites on the map?
None whatsoever, alas.
Before we can really tackle this... we need to be in a place where we have the free time to go back and fix things right. We just recently got our schedule caught up, but that doesn't mean we're AHEAD of schedule; it's more important now than ever to keep things on schedule and that means not much time is left over for other projects.
None whatsoever, alas.
Before we can really tackle this... we need to be in a place where we have the free time to go back and fix things right. We just recently got our schedule caught up, but that doesn't mean we're AHEAD of schedule; it's more important now than ever to keep things on schedule and that means not much time is left over for other projects.
James,
From your comment about 'its more important now than ever to keep things on schedule' that providing errata on Darkmoon Vale isn't and probably won't be a priority. Not a tragedy in the scheme of things, I've spent more on worse causes. I have the bulk of Pathfinder related products I can state that this was mediocre, at best, and not representative of what the company produces so I'm not going to threaten to cancel all my subs and demand that you have someone killed to appease me. You've produced some truly awesome works, Scarwall for example, but this isn't one of them. Should the errata ever come to fruition, it would greatly increase the value of this product.Otto
I agree with the consensus that the map issues really hurt this product and that it was sort of a low point for Paizo's PF products. That said there were some cool ideas in there. I think the main room for improvement other than the map was more original material instead of so much repetition of material from the modules.
My other suggestions would be that a few more villages or small towns would have made the vale feel a little more alive. Essentially, Olfden and Piren's Bluff are barely even in the Vale so it's pretty much just Falcon's Hollow. The other thing that would have been nice is a page or two on Andoran in general including a map to put the vale in context.
My question to the Paizo guys is are the populations of the three towns accurate as listed or was there some sort of disconnect? Looking at the maps of Falcon's Hollow and Piren's Bluff, they seem to be nearly the same size, though the populations of 210 compared to 1400 is a pretty big jump. Olfden on the other hand, is only 3,319, barely more than twice as large as Falcon's Hollow but looking at the maps they look worlds apart; I would have thought Olfden was a significantly larger city.
Unless it's mentioned in a module, I was hoping for more on what lied beneath Droskar's Crucible below dungeon level two, and/or info regarding Drazmorg, and/or the connection to Raseri Kanton and the allips and forge-spurned in the secrets section. Otherwise, the Secrets section and all of the details for werewolves were my favorites.
I was also curious about page 41 regarding Karlae's role.
Agreed on all of this. I've got to order this book!
And ooh, information on werewolves? My favorite monsters? Blast the way you people keep tempting me!
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Personally speaking, I do hope an errata and map re-tweak are produced... lets say as a Holiday Gift for us all! Hint Hint Nudge Nudge ;)
I'm a huge fan of Darkmoon Vale and its Denizens and hope to see more about this area in adventures to come!
The guide itself, though as mentioned earlier in this thread does have a few quirks, is a top notch reference to have - especially if your a DM running a Darkmoon Vale adventure.
If you don't have it, get it!
It's pros definitely far out way the cons!
Enjoy and keep those dice rolling all!
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Personally speaking, I do hope an errata and map re-tweak are produced... lets say as a Holiday Gift for us all! Hint Hint Nudge Nudge ;)
I'm a huge fan of Darkmoon Vale and its Denizens and hope to see more about this area in adventures to come!
I second that notion. It's a great place to run adventures (and I'm currently running some foolhardy adventurers through the modules set there)
I'm gonna have to slap a bump on this, because I really want a corrected map PDF. I heart this area and wanna start a big run. Like it to match up with offical if possible.
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So... did the update ever get done?
From a 2010 post by James Jacobs
Will this (and other OGL Chronicles books) be updated for the Pathfinder RPG?When we wrote all of our pre-Pathfinder RPG books, we already knew that the 3.5 version of the game was in its twilight years. While we didn't know if we were going to continue using a variant of 3.5 or switch over to 4th edition for many months, we did have to keep producing content, and as a result many of our pre-Pathfinder RPG books are relatively light on the rules-crunch. Guide to Darkmoon Vale is a perfect example of "rules-light," and as a result it won't be getting an update.
THIS POST has some likely other reasons, as well
There are more errata HERE